Tatertot Tim put this together for us, in collaboration with Dr. BG (Grace) (link removed)
What’s Lurking in your Guts? Potato Starch as Litmus Test for Gut Health
Earlier this week I was copied on an email from frequent FTA commenter Nancy, who had some important news. Her American Food Project results were in and she was a bit concerned:
Subj: Results from American Gut: my innards are quite f*cked up
Results attached with crude photography below.
For context, I was the one who responded the worst to the PS. Started it twice, about six months apart, and it led to nighttime and morning loose and urgent stools. It just wasn’t working. Now we know why.
My population was/is PRET-Ty sucky. And Googling some of these geni and families is freaking me right out. The same family as the bacteria causing the plague? A bacteria extremely populous in me that is only supposed to be in whiteflies?? I’m a bit nauseous! This is like the opposite of Tatertot Tim’s profile!
I took one glance at her AmGut report and could tell she was right, her innards were quite f*cked up.
Apparently when Nancy got these results, she started looking up names and discovered that some of these microbes were disease-causing and belonged in a whitefly. I did the same thing when I got my results, if you’ll remember: Resistant Starch: American Gut Project Real Results And Comparison (Very Big News).
The report also noted I had some rare types of microbes…
- Victivallaceae – A producer of acetate
- Limnobacter – A bacteria normally only found in high mountain glaciers, a tribute to my Arctic life, I suppose.
- And my favorite—because I am often thought to be a slacker—Slackia—a producer of a substance known as Equol.
[Editor’s note: If Tim is a slacker, then I’m a reprobate derelict!]
With all these names readily searchable by anyone with one finger and an internet connection, it’s easy to get lost. Dave Asprey loved to tease that all my RS ingestion seemed to do for me was to insert rare gut bugs in my gut, completely ignoring the fact that I had virtually NO detectable pathogens: Is there such a thing as Bulletproof Resistant Starch?
In fact, “tatertot” who worked with Richard on this research, got his American Gut results back after lots of resistant starch. His biome was stellar, but it contained a lot of Limnobacter, a rare microbe normally found in glaciers. Who knows what’s going to eat the resistant starch you put in your mouth?
When I looked at Nancy’s report, a quick glance at the bar chart—with the massive area in keto-pee yellow—screamed at me. This is the bar we really don’t care to see. It’s the bar that represents the Proteobacteria…the home of E. coli, salmonella, H. pylori, and cholera. Most people have a small band of these. But as you can see from the bars to the right of Nancy’s, most people have 5-10% of their sample represented by Proteobacteria. My sample showed I had about 2%.
So what’s in this massive Proteobacteria band of Nancy’s? The charts show that one of her most abundant microbes is of the genus Morganella, at 25% of her total microbiome. But we’re still missing a few specific microbes that comprise nearly 40% of her gut. …So, I asked her to send me her full taxa report. From the full report, we can see that not only does Nancy have 25% Morganella, but also nearly 10% of an unnamed member of the Gammaproteobacteria Class, Enterobacteriaceae Family—which is precisely where E. coli lives. We don’t know for sure it’s The E coli; but at a minimum, we’re talking relatives. Elsewhere on the report—in ranges of .02 – 2%—were no less than 24 other genera of Proteobacteria. For comparison, I had 12 genera. These are not all pathogens, and most are considered normal parts of the human gut. And, some Proteobacteria are actually good.
So, what’s the big deal? At tiny fractions, these bacteria are fine—everybody has them. A gut that has “broken bad,” however, favors the pathogens and allows them unimpeded growth and they then control the real estate. This is exactly what has happened in Nancy’s gut.
The genus Morganella has exactly one species—Morganella Morganii. M. Morganii, as it is more commonly called—that’s en effing bastard of a microbe. But, it’s not that uncommon either—my report shows that I have approximately .01% of it. But it doesn’t take much Googling to find out that this is not who might want dominating your gut.
Morganella morganii is a facultative, gram-negative and anaerobic rod found in the feces and intestines of humans, dogs, and other mammals. It’s known to be a causative organism of opportunistic infections in the respiratory tract, the urinary tract, and in wound infections. It can cause devastating infections in neonatal and postoperative stages—particularly in diabetic patients. The risk of infection is especially high when a patient becomes neutropenic as a result of myelosuppressive chemotherapy. Massive hemolysis can be associated with bacterial infection and has been reported mainly in cases of Clostridial or Vibrio sepsis.
But, it’s not all bad:
Morganella morganii is a species of gram-negative bacteria that has a commensal relationship within the intestinal tracts of mammals and reptiles, as normal flora. Although M. morganii has a wide distribution, it’s considered an uncommon cause of community-acquired infection and it is most often encountered in postoperative and other nosocomial infections such as urinary tract infections.
M. morganii is motile via the use of a flagella. In some cases, it reacts to changes in the pH of the gut, as well as to changes in the state of the immune system. Since it’s an opportunistic pathogen, it takes advantage of any compromise of the immune system—why it’s most often detected in hospitals after a serious injury or surgery, perhaps from its ability to hydrolyze and modify antibiotics through the presence of adhesins, and other enzymes.
When the host’s immune system is suppressed, M. morganii will rapidly invade the host and also cause specific IgA responses and as well as cause an increase in the volume of Peyer’s patches. It’s also able to ferment sugar and is glucose positive.
So, it seems that in my haste to pimp prebiotics on an unsuspecting public, I told Nancy to go ahead and eat potato starch, one of M. morganii’s favorite foods.
When I’d realized what I’d done, I wanted to see what lame advice I gave this poor lady who, as I write this, is trembling and curled the fetal position as she awaits a call from the doctor to schedule an appointment—just kidding.
Our conversation on the blog went something like this, beginning early November, 2013:
Maybe someone can help me. I think I have a bad biome. I have been gluten free and focused on healthy animal proteins and fats including coco oil for three years. I am quite overweight because I am a chocolate junkie. I tried the RS about 4 months ago, starting with 1 tbsp in the AM and one at night, going up to 2 and 2. After a few weeks, my TMI became late at night, first thing in the morning diarrhea. So I attributed it to the RS and stopped. The D lasted for about 3 more weeks, then finally became more normal. Because it still lasted, I ended up concluding that the D was from some other reason.
This week, I decided to really clean up my diet, and get off the sugar, mostly quality milk chocolate but also sometimes too much fruit, or crème brûlée. I was urged to try the RS again because of it help keeping cravings down. For three days I did 1 tbsp morning and 1 before dinner. After day 2 the TMI was changing. And after day 3, the looseness was back, and the urgency. I stopped RS today because I just don’t have the time to sit home in the morning.
Does anyone know what is wrong with my biome? Obviously something is amiss. I haven’t had any antibiotics for maybe 5 years except what they give you during a c-section birth two years ago. I also get migraines from any probiotic pills, liquids, or vegetables (I love kimchi but it doesn’t love me). I drink 1 cup of commercial full fat plain kefir a day, and 1 bottle of commercial kombucha a night in hopes of fermentation.
I suffer about 8 migraines a month. Maybe there is a connection.
Here was her plea for help…would the FTA community come through? You decide:
Richard Nikoley says:
Nancy, darling. Your comment is palpable to me.
You are suffering, girl. And it’s far beyond any advice I can offer. My only suggestion would be to fix your diet first, by which I mean no sugar that’s not in real food, no grains. Real food only you go out and get yourself, prepare yourself with whatever natural fats are your preference. Maybe feel free to include some of the foods touted for RS, but you probably ought stop supplementing it until you’re healthy.
You might consider seeking out pro help in the Real Food realm.
Then a nice number of helpful folks showed up, as is pretty common, here:
- Nancy, based on what I know (but I could be wrong), RS works really well for gut dysbiosis, i.e., dysbiosis in the large intestine. It may not be that effective for SIBO or IBS.
- I always crave chocolate. I find if I eat liver the cravings go away!
- …for what it is worth, what I found what worked for me a while back was raw, natural, unprocessed honey
Then, thank doG, Ellen came along:
Ellen says:
Nancy,
WARNING serious tmi ahead.
When you say that the PS makes you go more often, is it actual watery D or a well formed stool that is just frequent with cramping?
I was having the latter (plus headache) from more than a tiny bit of either PS or foods high on RS and have been taking Prescript-Assist for several days and it seems to be changing things for the better.
But, either way, I don’t think it can do you any harm to try a top quality probiotic.
The bottom line however is that nothing is going to change if you don’t get off the sugar. I would suggest that the higher carb end of PHD style eating might help you avoid the sugar cravings.
I had to have a say, too:
Tatertot says:
Nancy – I concur with everybody else! You would probably be wise to look for a naturopathic doctor and get this all straightened out. Right now you are shooting in the dark, something is going on, you owe it to yourself to get it fixed.
Don’t bother with the American Gut Project unless you just want to give them money. They take 6+months to get back with you and only identify gut microbes to the family level–not species level. Here is a better place.
This is a full report and quicker for not much more money. I have a buddy who can help you interpret the results if you need explaining, just post back here and we’ll get it figured out.
In the mean-time, green bananas have been used forever as a treatment for diarrhea in 3rd World Countries. I’d highly recommend buying a bunch of the greenest bananas you can find and eating 1-3 daily. If they are too hard to peel, slice them in half lengthwise and peel sideways. They taste like crap when that green, but eat while drinking hot tea or coffee to wash them down.
Oh, and quit eating milk chocolate! Learn to eat 100% Baking Chocolate, or buy the 90-100% candy chocolate. There is no high-quality milk chocolate!
Then Richard Nikoley says:
Nancy:
Please go also post your comment at my long time friend Dr. BG’s blog, Animal Pharm (link removed).
She can probably help.
So, you all decide: were we helpful or hurtful in this situation? I think we all handled it pretty well. It turns out that, back in November, Nancy had just sent off a sample of her poo to the American Food Project and decided she’d wait to see the results—returning to her diet that she knew would keep her in the most comfortable range of gastric disturbance, a low-carb paleo approach.
Also, in related emails, I dug a bit into Nancy’s background. She’s led quite a hectic life and her gut bugs have taken the brunt of the punishment. Many rounds of antibiotics, a benign brain tumor (prolactinoma on pituitary) removed—and grown back, and the usual array of health issues surrounding most everyone. She’s hypothyroid, and has frequent migraines. She’s Mom to 4 active children.
Would any of this info have swayed our musings? Probably not. So, what lessons can we learn from Nancy…amazing Mom who was overweight and had some TMI troubles, looking to resistant starch and a bunch of internet morons to help her out, i.e., just cut the carbs?
I think the big lesson we need to take from all this is that if potato starch f*cks you up, you need to go to a doctor ASAP. Get a full gut health report. Eating in a way that alleviates symptoms is not the same as eating in a way that is helping you out…it may just be doing the exact opposite! How many thousands of people get operated on every day in this same condition? Do doctors and surgeons routinely check for this kind of thing? Doubtful. It’s entirely possible that Nancy’s life will now improve, now that eating cheap Bob’s Red Mill Potato Starch, 24-Ounce (Pack of 4) identified a clear gut problem. For many months, we have heard loud and clear from those who conclude it’s not about them that they can’t handle it, when the clear evidence is that better than 90% of people can.
Here’s someone who took the time and trouble to find out.
…Another lesson is that if you think you have gut troubles, don’t mess around with the American Gut Project. Get a real test, like the Metametrix GI Effects stool analysis and get a urine test while you’re at it. These will need a doctor’s help and prescription, involving insurance paperwork and all that, but it may end up really improving your life. The American Gut Project is wonderful, but only for basic amusement. It only shows the level of diversity you have in your guts—which is totally fascinating—but potentially misleading. It won’t show yeasts, or put up a red flag if something is seriously amiss. Had Nancy not thought to share her results, she might have just gone on her merry way thinking that 25% Morganella was perfectly acceptable. Nancy may also find she has even more sinister inhabitants when examined fully.
…The gut is an amazing piece of machinery. Your gut microbes can exert a form of mind-control and do it all the time. This M. morganii, for instance, that has taken over Nancy’s prime neighborhoods, loves to eat sugar. What was Nancy admittedly addicted to? Sugar. M. morganii should also be able to eat RS as it is a form of carbohydrate, but it’s almost as if Mr. Morganii didn’t want her to have it—because it would also feed his enemies…and…diarrhea for weeks!
Nancy suffers migraines, why do I have a strange feeling that these are related to her gut? Are these migraines the remaining few good gut bugs screaming for help? Or M. morganii hoping she’ll seek solace and comfort in a piece of apple pie?
What advice would Nancy have gotten from any of the other gastrointestinal ‘gurus’ out there? Hopefully, they would have first advised her to get a full report. We are beginning to see, now, that the information you can get from genetically sequencing your poop can add up to gold.
Nancy further relates, within the last few day, and a few months later:
I started taking Prescript-Assist Probiotic 6 weeks ago. With one a day, taken at night before bed. Within 48 hours my poop and my life changed for the better. Instead of quite urgent but controllable poop that was not on the Bristol scale (I liked to call it ‘sludge’), I went to shaped poop that kept the shape even in the bowl. On the Bristol scale and one of the good ones, I think. And if someone is in the bathroom, I can wait my turn. This was a change I welcomed.
As to Resistant Starch and her diet lately:
I only eat RS in the form of cooled rice really, right now. I was planning to start Potato Starch soon, now that my stools are changed and maybe my biome too? I have to go very easy with most fermented foods, like kimchi or real sauerkraut. Love them, but more than a tablespoon and I get a migraine. I drink a cup of commercial plain full fat kefir maybe 3-4x a week. I drink half to one bottle of chia kombucha a night. That is as much alcohol as I can handle without migraine. It’s the weak kind of kombucha that you can buy under 21.”
Hopefully, when Nancy gets her gut bugs re-checked very soon, she’ll find that the Prescript-Assist, fermented foods, and rice have turned the tide and her gut is well on the way to healthy.
Some advice from Dr. BG on what tests to ask for can be found on her blog.
Grace’s thoughts on RS failures are that there are four main reasons why people can have a hard time when they first start an RS rich diet:
- SIBO/SIFO—Small Intestine Bacterial or Fungal Overgrowths. RS utilizing bugs in the wrong place (right bugs, wrong place). The only way to tell is with testing.
- Antibiotics have removed the RS utilizing bugs—over 25% of individuals make zero butyrate with RS due to missing ‘core’ gut bugs.
- Parasites, yeasts and pathogenic strains in the small intestines and/or colon—either too much (or too little) butyrate, propionate, or acetate production depending on which strains, how much and where in the enormous ecosystem.
- VLC or ‘Atkins’ type diets—drops butyrate to 1/4 of control diet. Symbiont RS-utilizing strains are decimated analogously, particularly Roseburia which tracks with butyrate production.
So if you think you have a serious problem in your gut, please don’t mess around—get it checked out. Maybe it’s not the potato starch. Maybe it’s you. Spend some money and get a real test done. Waiting 6 months for an American Gut report is fine if you’re generally healthy; but if you cannot eat real food, like potato starch or cold potatoes—you just may be ill, from the perspective of a normal human. Resistant starch is an age-old food, one we evolved millions of years eating. If you can’t eat it, you probably need some modern medicine to find out why. Hopefully, Nancy will get her appointment and a new stool test very soon and she and her doctors will come up with a solution to restore balance and heal her gut fully. Last word is, she’s well underway with that.
What’s lurking in your guts?
~~~
Editor’s comments: Let me close with a little hubristic spice. It’s not a question, anymore, about all the millions of folks who’ve invested countless dollars and time in oder to fully understand every metabolic pathway, every axis, or every single genetic expression that they just love to go on and on about.
None of it—regardless of how detailed and precise—has even a sliver to do with a scintilla of all of the foregoing. What does that mean? Smart people, but smart people who are literally back at the drawing board. Every one of them. And I’m talking day one, and kindergarten—and I care not their names or credentials. Meaningless.
- When they are talking about metabolic function, hormonal signaling, et al, they are talking, at most, about 10% of you. Until they fully integrate the gut biome’s role in all of this and minimally, begin to start classifying different levels of healthy guts vs. bad guts, they ought be regarded as going bla bla bla.
- When they are talking about gene expression it’s even worse, and more embarrassing, since our own genome is less than 1% of the total genome including the up-to 1,000 lines of microbiota.
I’ll tell you what’s far more hubristic, though; and I’m just alerting you, because you’re going to see it a lot—from those who invested so much to be “experts” on 10% and 1%. It’s very simple and you watch. You are going to see tons of people who are behind, who thought they were the Bee’s Knee’s tell you it’s all a bunch of BS, don’t look. Watch for being told not to look.
That’s exactly how things shift from who knows nothing, to who knows everything—and vice versa—in every paradigm shift; and if the science of the gut microbiota doesn’t represent a back-to-the-drawing-board paradigm shift in health and medicine, then nothing does.
Stay tuned for the book. The foregoing represents a Tim drafted, but Richard and Grace collaboration—with me as your final say editor. Hope you liked it.
tatertot 
Lauren 
Nick 
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Thanks, Nancy for letting us use your story. Hopefully it will help many others!
Tim
“Eating in a way that alleviates symptoms is not the same as eating in a way that is helping you out…it may just be doing the exact opposite!”
+1000
Thank you Nancy, TT, RN and Grace for this. May we all heed the warnings about ‘not looking’ and, instead, look hard.
I had a GI effects profile. While I do not have opportunistic bacteria or parasites, I did have a fungal infection. Some back story, I’ve been having odd symptoms on and off for the past 9 months. My doctor and I still have not been able to pinpoint it. There has been Orthostatic Intolerance issues along with tiredness, and many other things, essentially something similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The stool issues have been with me for longer than the full on symptoms, they definitely started after going VLC/LC. To pinpoint what I have is hard since, some things fit the symptoms but I haven’t measured the right things (igA, immunoglobulins, electrolytes, etc.) yet to pinpoint exactly what is going on.
The results of the test are very interesting though. The reason being is that I have very low fecal sIgA, 20 mg/dl. This is in addition to very low acetate production, very high n-Butyrate production, and high Lactoferrin (which due to the fungal infection that would make sense). Interesting though too is the overall low production of SCFA, very low. I don’t have a scanner available to me at the moment to upload the results, but what my gut is being populated by is interesting. I have high amounts of Clostridia, mid amount of Bacteroides, and rest are on the low end.
This was test was after avoiding potato starch for a few weeks, I’m not sure how that effected the results though, I still was keeping the carbs fairly high. But, I have noticed a decrease in the runny nose, clogged upper respiratory system, hot hands, achiness, that was happening but only after I went on an elimination diet, ha. My stools also went from being rock hard crappies to generally fairly consistent, floating stools. I’m still have a consistency issue, but I’m getting closer to pinpointing that to the foods I’m eating. The tiredness, heart rate problems, along with some other symptoms are still there, but I’m feeling better overall.
Spencer – your stools shouldn’t float. That’s a sign of poor fat digestion, maybe an issue with liver or gallbladder function, which could definitely be caused from yeast or bacterial overgrowth. I had this as well, and mine were very light colored, almost yellow. After two weeks on Prescript Assist, Primal Defense Ultra, and AOR Probiotic 3, and taking plantain starch twice per day, they finally started sinking and became a really nice dark brown. They are still occasionally on the softer side, and sometimes aren’t tightly packed, but sink like they should, and I feel tons better. I am also taking different varieties of the colonizing probiotics, like Theralac, and eating my own raw sauerkraut and sauerruben, and drinking water kefir and kombucha.
It’s not just about diarrhea, either, I had weird psychiatric things happening (OCD negative thoughts, bad dreams, depression, anxiety) and a lot of IBS and food intolerances. All have improved in about six weeks. I have a ways to go, but I’m getting there.
I mention this because you didn’t mention any probiotics in your comment, and they are what really turned the corner for me. I truly doubt that simply consuming resistant starch on it’s own is going to fix any significant problems. It certainly didn’t for me.
Good luck.
Kudos Dr Ann!
Spencer, I second everything she said. Thank you for finding FTA and posting your thoughts
Ayurvedic medicine says exactly the opposite, that stools should float, and that ‘sinkers’ indicate poor colon health.
Have you ever changed a babies diaper and flushed it down the toilet? Babies poop sinks. Every time. I’ve had two kids of my own, one formula-fed, and one breastfed for sixteen months. I’ve also been a babysitter to many, including my own siblings babies and kids. That’s what it’s supposed to do.
Maybe Indians don’t eat much fat?
All I know is that when mine was floating I was at my sickest, and had gallbladder pain after eating. As I started to get better and not feel sick after eating, my stools were also starting to sink.
???
Good luck Nancy. I hope everything continues to improve for you.
“Are these migraines the remaining few good gut bugs screaming for help? Or M. morganii hoping she’ll seek solace and comfort in a piece of apple pie?” Ha, love this. I have been searching for a solution for migraines and chronic headaches for years. Switching from a whole grain heavy diet to Paleo a number of years ago, then PHD, really tamed the migraines, but headaches are still a major concern. Ironically, though, certain foods in my new dietary regime proved problematic. Like Nancy, fermented foods are head trouble. Liver or kidney means a head buster at night or the next morning as well. (and I like liver, I’d happily eat it all the time). I hypothesized over a year ago that my headache/migraines originated in my gut, and I’ve been playing around with probiotics, RS, and soluble fibers ever since. (Probiotics don’t seem to bother my head like fermented food). I’m fortunate in that I never had any TMI issues, blood glucose regulation issues, or weight issues. RS makes my sleep better and I’m calmer. However, if the chronic headaches are related to my gut, it is not a quick fix.
I sent my American gut sample in last September. I contacted them, and they had misfiled it. Supposedly running it in the next batch. I’ll be interested to compare my results with Nancy’s and Tim’s.
What’s the difference between a VLC diet (with ample prebiotics, including supplemental PS, and fermented foods) versus a PHD-style diet…? The only difference would be carb content…and either side can make a case as to what amount of carb is optimal.
“The only difference would be carb content”
No 1 side treats all carbs as being the same…..
Well, besides the “safe starches”, Paul is definitely is an advocate of specific supplementation. When I initially switched, I was hesitant to add the starches. But I started the supplements right away. Almost an immediate difference for me in terms of how my head felt. I had tried D and Mag supps before, but K2 and iodine, among others were new.
It is easy to get fixated on just one or two of the consequences of taking RS/PS or of diet in general and I’ve read numerous comments from people who give up after a week or two because one symptom has got worse. What we are/ I am going for here is health. When I don’t have it I really want it. Along the way I really hope for weight loss, improved brain function and an improved physique and my weight is one of my key signals of whether my health is improving or getting worse. However my weight is just one indicator. Another is my auto-immune flares. Others have different indicators of importance to them.
The key message here is that if RS/PS makes you feel worse then you have something else going on and do go and find out what it is. For some of us that is more difficult than others. Finances kick in for many of us. But if I was hit by a bus and needed remedial therapy we would find the several thousand to make sure I could at least get started on getting back to some semblance of health. I feel the same thing with my gut. I really, really want my brain back and to be able to keep up with the youngsters at karate (20-50 years younger than me). At the moment my brain is only functioning at 30-70% of what I know it can do. Its like I get 20-40 points knocked off my IQ on bad days.
So keep on exploring is my adage. If something isn’t working is it because it doesn’t work (and the 90% of people it helps can’t be ignored) or is it because something else has to happen first? For me its probably a matter of weeding out some of the nasties plus seeding some of the good bacteria (Thanks Dr Grace for those ideas).
Thank you Harriet~! I want your brain back too!! Let’s unplug the cyborg soon!
Migraines is usually caused by a low rbcMg level which can be done with a blood test and is quite common.
My stools are more moist now and seem to pass smoothly so I think the magnesium can become better absorbed. High hydration levels are also helpful.
Most people have low Mg levels and these will quickly help solve the problem as I tried many supplements without much success.
Jigsaw Health Magnesium w/SRT rather expensive but has co-factors.
Add Natural Calm Ionic Magnesium Citrate Powder so one is getting from both close to 1000mg day magnesium.
Now if migraines persist try LifeExtension foundation supplements Migra-Mag with Brain Shield or Brain Shield itself.
I have found these helpful but there could be other similar sources. Migraine aurea can be disturbing and migraine disabling for days.
Mg is an effective prophylactic for some but not everyone. Personally, I have tried every mg chelate on the market, I have rubbed mgcl oil all over my body, I have soaked in epsom salt baths, and I have tried the expensive variety that crosses the blood brain barrier. The effect? nada
Me too, I take glycinate (?) or malate every night, and do bathe in mag flakes a couple times a week. Yet I still get 9 migraines a month on average. I do not want to skip the mag not even for one night for fear that in itself would cause one. But they don’t get rid of them entirely.
Still, if you are pregnant and can’t take meds, rubbing mag oil right on your head can bring some relief.
My first try with potato starch, the gas didn’t resolve after about 10 weeks, so I quit PS and started tapioca starch. I was using cheap probiotics with the PS. When I started the TS, I also started Primal Defense Ultra. Been on this for about 6 weeks. On TS and PD-U I have received favorable results. I have lost a few pounds, lost the brain fog, belly flattening, pants looser. I just got ordered Probiotic-3 and I’ll start that tomorrow (w/TS and PD-U). After a week of the new routine I intend to to introduce small amounts of PS with the TS. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, but rarely have trouble with it, but given that RA is an autoimmune disease, I’m concerned that the PS may ultimately be a no-go because of the nightshade issue. Based on my favorable results with TS, I really don’t think I need PS, I just want to try it to see if the probiotics will prevent the gas. Bottom line, if PS doesn’t work for you, try BRM Tapioca starch. It’s actually slightly cheaper than PS.
I have Primal Defense Ultra on order, so it’s good to know it actually does something.
As for tapioca starch, I thought Tim Steele was saying it isn’t really resistant starch. They have Bob’s Red Mill in my local stores, but claim not to be able to order in the potato starch. I was thinking about tapioca starch today, but decided to order more of the potato starch online.
I don’t recall negative comments on TS. Maybe Tatertot Tim will comment again. It works for me…so far..
Tapioca starch is in a blind spot, until someone gets several samples tested and we can show it is consistently high in RS across the board, I have to remain skeptical. In theory, it should be very high in RS, but in practice it seems to give blood sugar spikes to some, but that could be batch or processing plant specific.
I’d say, ‘try it’. Hopefully somebody will come up with a good RS supplement that is as cheap as Bob’s Potato Starch with a known RS content and several types of starch to choose from labeled by RS content.
The second best ‘guaranteed’ RS supplement is dried, green plantains. They will be about 50% RS by weight and also contain inulin and other prebiotics fibers and good digestive ‘stuff’. Dry them, turn them into powder or eat like crackers.
The third best guaranteed RS source is High Amylose Maize Starch. Sold as King Arthur High Fiber Flour or something like that…50% RS and also used in tons of studies. I’m just leery of industrial corn, but it’s a good source of RS.
How would one go about getting TS tested for resistant starch? It passes the non-Newtonian fluid test, but it takes longer to settle than PS. I don’t test BG because I don’t have issues with BG (as far as I know). I sleep well after a slug of TS and PD-U, but I never had sleep issues. I have lost weight, but I’ve continually modified my diet. Right now, I eat no sugar at all, and eat seafood, some beef, and fruit and nuts, and lots of veggies. I haven’t found a source for plantain starch that doesn’t have added stuff. Like I posted earlier, it works for me. Still to add in a small amount of PS to my TS next week to see if it still gives me gas.
One would simply send a sample to: megazyme.com/ along with about $250.
If we ever get this book done (hint, hint) I plan on using a large portion of any money I make to get lots of foods tested. Book #2 will be even better.
Christoph, if you have an Asian market around there, they will have PS at about 1/3 the cost of Bob’s.
I tried both PS and TS from an Asian market that I frequent for fish sauces, rice, and noodles, and discovered that I have bad reactions, like food allergies, when I eat those items that are processed in other countries. Someone suggested that they aren’t as careful about keeping gluten from cross-contaminating as they might be here in the US, so if you have any gluten issues that may be a problem. Of course I don’t KNOW that that’s what happened to me, but it happens every time, and not so with BRM products.
For those of us not in the US and unable to participate in the American Gut project, could someone please provide the equivalent GI Effects test name and number?
Following, ’cause this is my bad gut. Hopefully to become a good gut.
So you’ve uncurled from the fetal position and rejoined the war against the pathogens! Awesome. Thanks again for letting us use your very personal info to spread the word. Lots of people will be watching you for the outcome. Hopefully yours will be a true rags-to-riches gut bug story!
Thank you Nancy for sharing your story and Tim for writing it up. It is very difficult for people whose experiment with RS failed to get heard amongst all the success stories. It makes us feel like failures.
My experiment failed. I intuitively didn’t want to join the potato starch only hype as I felt that would maybe solve one short term problem to create another one long term. I wanted to use several RS sources and started with plantain flour instead. As expected by blood sugar levels dropped considerably (for a T2 diabetic), but after that first week my sugar levels were all over the place again. Back to square one. I have since done a lot of reading on what could be the cause. That my gut biome is out of whack is evident. I have other issues to contend with, like suffering from constipation for 40 years. I have recently discovered that I have low body temperature, which apparently effects metabolism as the enzymes need normal body temperature to do their job effectively, which apparently causes the bad guys to take over the asylum or the good guys to overgrow in the wrong place.
I have come to the conclusion to get my poop analysed. As I live in Holland I will have to find a lab that will do an extensive analysis, not just your quick job.
I hope other “failures” will tell their story as well, so that we all can learn from each other. Nancy’s story has definitely given me food for thought.
A friend related yesterday that she also failed at RS and has been recently diagnosed as hypothyroid.
I hope you find a place to get a good poop analysis in Holland. There is a Dutch blogger talking about RS, don’t have a link, but maybe re-post this story there and you very brilliant ‘Dutchies’ can figure out how to get meaningful, cheap testing done. Hey, you all figured out how to control the ocean, surely the gut is no match.
Have you heard of the young man from Delft named Antonie Philips van Leeuwenhoek? We call him the Father of Microbiology. Make him proud!
“Who Are the 99%? Insights into the Uncultivated Bacterial Majority”
abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewSession.aspx?sKey=ace961a8-a713-4552-a4ae-4393581302b5&mKey=673511…
If this is true, only percent identified, I’d really would like to know: As you can’t test the unknown (or can they) what can the tests be good for, really?
And btw, the tater this sounds really good, time available to attend?
gm.asm.org/index.php/scientific-program/general-program
ASM 2014
Jo could try beans. They are low glycemic and contain RS. I’ve been eating 1 cup of beans every day (or lentils) plus 2 cups of cooked vegetables per day and blood glucose is excellent. No spikes. I’m not diabetic, but I still don’t like spikes.
If beans cause gas, then start with very small amounts and build up.
Low body temp = ? hypothyroid. Grace commented the other day that it’s unusual to have normal HgbA1c levels with hypothyroidism.
Thanks Gab.
Low thyroid causes
—leaky gut/permeability
—thus food allergens (nightshade, oxalates, FODMAPS, dairy/wheat, etc)
–fungal overgrowths (candida loves low body temps!)
–any overgrowth will cause further leaky gut (bacterial, fungal, parasitic)
VLC causes low thyroid even if the thyroid panels appear ‘normal’ by raising reverse T3 which effectively block thyroid receptors
Unfortunately this discussion must include modern environmental toxins as well — mercury also blocks thyroid receptors as well as being an endocrine disruptor and estrogenic.
I think there are RS failures because the root causes aren’t fully elucidated — and it’s ‘wrong’ to not be able to tolerate regular non-toxic food.
Jo,
Love your phrase “bad guys to take over the asylum or the good guys to overgrow in the wrong place”. That is precisely what happens!
Good luck– I have confidence you’ll find more help here.
I had exactly the same overgrowth as Ms. Nancy and it wasn’t that hard to fix. This is the common malady that I see clinical — (same ‘fingerprint’) yeasts outta the wazoo, a bacterial overgrowth and usually a random parasite. AmGut fails to pick up on the major health crisis which is caused by antibiotic use, yeast overgrowths or parasites.
Here is how I fixed it:
url-removed/2013/09/my-n1-pre-and-post-microbiome-digestion.html
Jo, I was a failure also. I am hypo-thyroid, low body temp, hypoglycemic, alcoholic, frail, with lots of health issues. I could not tolerate RS at all, which didn’t surprise me, because I can’t even eat potatoes! I gave up on PS early on. I tried tapioca which I could tolerate but the scuttlebutt was that tapioca was probably light on RS.
So I was pretty much ready to end my experiment. I only didn’t throw my packages of potato and tapioca starch in the trash bin because I had noticed that they provided amazing satiation. Which is difficult to get for a hypoglycemic. So I started trying just a little tsp. with every meal. And it was good. Then I went to also a couple TBL at night. And found it helped me stave off hypoglycemia during the night. Then I added in the probiotics to my nightly dose and quite quickly lost my addiction to alcohol. Which was miraculous.
This is not to say RS is for you. It might very well not be. It’s just to say that for compromised persons, a VERY slow approach may do wonders. Good luck!
Thanks Dr BG, I had summised that it might be a slow thyroid. I have quite a few of the classic symptoms, and I had it tested 4 years ago, but everything came back “normal” It’s all down to the diabetes I was diagnosed with. I have noticed many times that the tablets just don’t seem to have any effect and that something else is affecting my high blood sugars. One day my BS level will be fine and I will have eaten all the wrong things and the next day will be high and I ate all the right things.
Quite by chance I read your blog post yesterday, and will definitely give it a go. I think my constipation, my diabetes, my slow thyroid, my out of whack gut bacteria are all inter-related. When I fix my gut bacteria, all the other things will fall into place.
Thought I’d finally drop a comment first time ever on a paleo blog/forum (After being all about paleo almost 2 yrs!)
This is one of the things I had been thinking asking you about, tatertot. Where to get gut testing done, that is affordable and thorough enough (for myself concerning fungal problems at the moment, as well for my thesis next year).
The dutch blogger is melchior meijer and this is post about resistant starch (I couldn’t believe the number of comments when checking out the post again): melchiormeijer.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/wordt-honig-aardappelzetmeel-de-paleo-hack-van-2013/
After I asked he said he’d email me, but I still haven’t got one so I figure I’m going to ask my question already on the blog post itself. As you, Jo, probably want the answer too.
Dag, meneer!
I have no idea about gut testing in other countries. I figured Melchior Meijer would know. Maybe someone else can help?
I have found a good site in Holland that does the test. We can order direct. It is a complete profile (14 analyses) and includes DNA-enterotyping. The suggest consulting with a therapist to get a full understanding of what you’ve got. Sounds like a good point.
darmklachten.nl/analyses/darmflora-microbiota/
I will definitely be taking this test.
Q, what you report here is HUGE. After a few months of probiotics and RS I have now zero interest in alcohol or any kind of sweets. Since they were never a big deal for me to begin with I didn’t realize how important this might be in the larger picture.
Thank you so much and please keep us informed.
Q Goddess~
You’re nothing short of miraculous! I love your story. If you’re brain is at half mast right now, I can’t wait to see it flying high again.
When I was really sick with CFS (Chronic Fatigue) I had similar things reactive rollercoaster sugars, low body temps, couldn’t workout (used to do triathlons) and got bloated with all foods, even water lol. After antibiotics, I had yeasts that were spewing out aldehydes and alcohol. I’m so grateful that Tim and Richard were so persistent (close to one year now) because it helped me so much to recognize the key elements for gut health. And several very good friends in China placed the SBO probiotics in my hand (thx Will) and hosted meals rich in fermented foods and Chinese tubers.
Q~ I made a huge marketing nightmare and error. When we started our ‘colloboration’ in Oct/Nov, I named the gut protocol for what it was. What a mistake. lol No one knew what I was talking about! That slowed down attempts to roll it out which was excruciatingly frustrating for me… IMHO People still don’t understand, but the results (like yours) speak for themselves. Thank you for your stunning story.
drbganimalpharm.blogspot.jp/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html
Dr. BG’s 7-Steps Paleo* Gastro IQ SIBO Protocol
HOW TO CURE SIBO, SMALL BOWEL INTESTINAL OVERGROWTH
(with major contributions from Tim/Richard/Marie/Gab/FTA)
Dr. Grace, You are very kind. My story is really quite pedestrian and all too common, but it’s a sad story that could use a hopeful chapter. It sounds like you have suffered a lot also. For people with long-term afflictions, persistence can feel very futile at times. I know I have needed many breaks from “trying” before I could get up and try again. Having a serendipitous resource enter your life can make all the difference. So much gratitude to all here.
If I can be of any service to you, et. al. with branding help, just let me know. I would love to see it take flight.
PS. Looks like Duchovny’s next project is to play Charles Manson. I am preparing my loins for the serious moral dissonance.
I also believe fluoride disrupts the thyroid; replaces iodine there and causes hypothyroidism. (Or is it just that iodine is the antidote for fluoride?)
Yes Laura, all the halides compete in the thyroid, fluoride being the most ubiquitous. The worst source is tea. 1 cup of black tea per day is probably not too bad, but people are drinking green tea like it’s some sort of panacea of the gods. It’s really not. I know someone who was drinking a litre per day. After cutting down some, TSH was 2.2. …how about cutting it out altogether? That would have been ideal. Why do people drink that ahem, crap?
Broth prepared from ocean fish bones is also very high in fluoride.
I don’t know what effect, if any, chlorinated swimming pool water has if someone spends a lot of time swimming or teaching in a pool area.
Jo TB, Awesome~ Please let us know how we can help you after your results.
It’s funny I was looking back which feels like AN ETERNITY but Ellen and I were talking about failures like yours here back in mid Dec and what empty zoo cages are about.
freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html#comment-548895
It is apparent to me then and now that America and the blogosphere has a lotta empty zoo cages otherwise gut problems, autism, allergies, asthma, diabesity, dementia and cancer would not be at epidemic rates. Personally I think every person should go on the SBO probiotics prior to any resistant starch to start seeding the gut and RS rich foods before PS (which is mega-dosed RS).
So many stories seem to be emerging that probiotics make the biggest differences.
Q~ May guardian gut angels always protect you and your path. Thank you for your offer! Aahhh, Duchovny is challenging himself. U CRACK ME UP.
Ah yes! so gratefull for this, jo.
I too am determined to take this test.
But I will first submit/propose this to my ‘paleocoach’ (he’s also dutch but has a practice in antwerp, went to him thrice), because previous summer I had already been wanting to do such tests but by then he told me that they are either or unreliable, incomplete, expensive(for the info that you’re getting out of it), unnecessary, etc. So I would like to hear what he has to say.
Q~ I don’t know how to contact you (Richard is withholding LOL or busy blogging). Please click on ’email’. Thxxx!
blogger.com/profile/15451872961651116061
@Gabriella – I think each person’s mileage may vary regarding tea and thyroid troubles. Also, the type, quality and source of the tea and water that it’s made with also matter. I drink several varieties of tea because they taste delicious to me. I drink them unsweetened and add nothing except occassionally fresh ginger and chai spices in the winter especially. But just as with wine, there are so many varieties within each category and they taste very different from each other It all depends upon one’s taste preferences. I tend to drink more green and white varieties in the summer and more oolong and black varieties in the winter. The glaring exception is matcha which I enjoy year round. My tea loving ways have never made a change in my TSH, free T3, free T4, or antibodies. The downside for me is that I do find that the tea stains the teeth much more than coffee (which I also love), but I have zero cavities and that’s pretty good considering I’m no spring chicken. Re gut health and tea, Kresser’s site had an interesting article back in March about how polyphenols may improve gut biome — tea is a rich source of polyphenols so maybe it helps the gut bugs.
Adrienne,
I have been using Garden of Life. Probiotic Smile and it has made a noticeable
Improvement in the color of my teeth in just a few weeks. Whiter but natural looking. I don’t drink much tea at all though.
amazon.com/Garden-Life-Extraordinary-Beauty-Probiotic/dp/B006I7A3DI/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8�…