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Veganism: Elitist, Well Off Guys & Gals?

How many poor vegans do you know?

No, I’m not talking about those with the luxury to fake lives of minimalism and austerity — all the while knowing they can run back to mommy & daddy any time if…like…the tie-died, dreadlocked, barefooted grunge thing doesn’t work out on Pacific Avenue in Santa Cruz.

And while not Santa Cruz, California, this is still a pretty decent display of vegan affluence. I give you the 30 Bananas a Day crowd at a raw food retreat in Australia.

Now, before I show it, I do want to be fair. These are whole foods. They are concerned about their health and well being, they have some trepidation about how the modern rat race might not be good for you. But all in all, I have to conclude that they are on a fool’s mission. Body composition is almost uniformly awful. They actually have high body fat percentages owing to the stick figure low lean mass they carry, especially in the men. Observe some of those twigs they pass off as arms. And don’t even get me started on what they refer to as "workouts." I’m 50 years old in January and just this morning pulled 305# for 4 reps in the deadlift, followed by 275# for another four. That’s a workout. Less than six months ago I was at about 165#. I didn’t make those gains on raw fruit, I can tell you.

OK, let’s get to the video which, I do have a fondness for on some levels, so let’s be fair.

And whether it’s 30 bananas a day, or 70, as Durianrider claims to eat, that’s one hell of an extreme diet. Even at 30, about 3,000 – 3,500 kcals depending on the size of the bananas, that’s a whopping 780g of carbs, about 130g of it being fructose — highly associated with fatty liver. Unlike other sugars, fructose goes straight to the liver to be metabolized pretty much exactly like alcohol.

All that said, it must be acknowledged that they are grain and processed food free, just as we paleos. And if you suspect, as do I, that it’s the grains, modern frankenfats, refined sugars and processed foods in general that create the chronic inflammatory environment upon which high carbohydrate diets act upon to cause disease, then, well…who knows?

This is why I don’t pursue "health" directly, per se. I pursue pristine body composition within the framework of a real foods, omnivorous, largely "paleo" diet with a mixture of cooked & raw foods. And since there is such a strong evolutionary basis for the way I eat and express genes in other ways such as episodic fasting and brief, high intensity workouts I’m willing to bank on my "health" just taking care of itself, which should be the natural and logical assumption.

…In the meantime, there’s this wonderful guest post by Willis Eschenbach at Anthony Watt’s blog, courtesy of a reader alert to me this morning: Vegans are not from Vegas. Do read the whole wonderful story, but here’s a few excerpts.

For the host of reasons I listed in the previous post, people around the planet have found it advantageous to domesticate and keep (and eat) animals. Perhaps some random vegan knows more about how to scratch out a living in a hostile world than do all of the billions of poor farmers and householders around the planet, maybe they’re all wrong to keep chickens and pigs and such, maybe we might be able to feed more people if we were all vegetarians … but I doubt it very much. The farmers and the poor around the planet aren’t that stupid. […]

Once when I was working in Liberia, in West Africa, they were burning a local sugar cane field. The whole village came out with clubs. They surrounded the fire in a long line. When the fire chased the cane rats out of the burning cane, they clubbed the rats and took them home and ate them. […]

Here’s the reason why cane rat is a delicacy, why kids lined up to get some of the meat. The villagers that eat that meat are stronger and healthier and more resistant to disease and quicker to heal and faster growing than the villagers who don’t eat that meat. Simple as that. The chance to eat meat doesn’t come up often. When that chance comes up, those people that eat the meat improve their chances of living compared to those who don’t eat meat.

Our bodies know that and have known it since forever. You could see it in the kids’ eyes, they could smell it, they wanted it, their bodies responded without conscious thought. Meat makes you stronger, it provides a host of vitamins and minerals, it is powerful food. Which is why people eat meat, in Africa and around the planet. It increases their odds of survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. So they ate cane rats.

And then there’s the story of the 7-year-old boy and his 4-year-old brother in Mexico.

He searched around, picked up and discarded a few stones, finally settling on exactly the right one. He put it in the pouch of the slingshot, and started walking around and gazing intently up into the tree branches above us. He stopped, pulled back and let fly.

There was a “poof” sound up in the tree, and a bird the size of a small robin, that I didn’t even know was in the tree, tumbled down at my feet. He and his tiny brother both jumped on it, and he twisted its neck in an economical, practiced fashion.

I told you. You’ll want to go read the whole thing.

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More

143 Comments

  1. Paleo Rob on October 20, 2010 at 15:32

    Haha, wow, I have a very different definition of “healthy” compared to these guys.

    No, but seriously though, that looks creepy and they should eat a steak.

  2. John on October 20, 2010 at 14:09

    so I have a friend who went to UT Austin and he met a vegan homeless person in Austin. No joke he said he tried to give the guy some food and he rejected it because he was vegan.
    I’ve always found that funny, I also have a hard time believing that this person was actually homeless for financial or social reasons.

    • keithallenlaw on February 26, 2011 at 16:49

      I have had that same thought. If I was homeless (foodless) and rejected a piece of bread.
      Would I be considered an ungrateful bastard? At that point a may have to eat the bread.

  3. Melissa on October 20, 2010 at 14:13

    Paleo is rather bourgeois, but unlike Animal Rights Veganism is based on individual health. I’m eating paleo for me. AR vegans want EVERYONE to eat their diet.

    I guess I should plug this project:

    MIXED systems are the future for the world’s impoverished. Maybe they can’t afford a paleo diet, but using animals for agriculture provides valuable milk, meat, labor, and fertilizer.

    • Bushrat on October 23, 2010 at 22:36

      If you cut out grains and sugar you are most of the way to paleo. Stop subsidising big ag and we’ll see whether living paleo is really expensive in the long term.

    • Dana on February 26, 2011 at 17:07

      How can someone not afford a paleo diet? Grow a vegetable garden, raise some goats and chickens (which actually would have a lower overhead in a developing country than it does in a developed nation where such is a hobby). There you go. Paleo diet.

      It’s a lot more expensive to grow huge cash crops of grains and beans and sugar.

  4. Bill Strahan on October 20, 2010 at 14:23

    They’ve got the gathering part of hunter-gatherer down, don’t they? Some of that stuff looked pretty dang good. Give me a little bit of some of it, and a steak or perhaps some seafood and I’ll call it a meal.

    But, like you Richard, I sure wouldn’t want the skeletal appearance those guys have! I’m only 43 and have the same affinity for deadlifts you have developed. I can now deadlift more at 43 than at any other time in my life, and I first did them in my teens.

    I think several of those guys would have a hard time lifting 150-200 pounds based on the skin/bones appearance. In fact, if they were REALLY living in the wild, I’d venture to say they’ve prepared themselves well to end up being a non-vegetarian meal for some other animal that isn’t afraid of meat. Lions, tigers, oh my!

    • bubba29 on October 20, 2010 at 18:41

      “They’ve got the gathering part of hunter-gatherer down” in hunter gather civilizations, the women were typically the gatherers. did you notice how the women looked pretty healthy while the men looked like skinny unhealthy women? makes you wonder if women, because they gathered, were more adapted to eat that type of food.

      • gallier2 on October 21, 2010 at 03:09

        That’s a reflection I already have made at a time I had nothing else to do (had a lot of mission in rural France and was every evening in Hotels and Restaurants) than observe what people order. Women tended more to fish, seafood and vegetable and men were more into meat, organ meats and venison.



      • Dana on February 26, 2011 at 17:10

        That’s a cultural thing. There’s no biological reason women wouldn’t want to eat meat.



      • Melissa on October 21, 2010 at 14:42

        Look at chimps- female chimps trade SEX for meat hunted by males. We lose blood…we need to replace it somehow 🙂 Women build mass… in the womb. We’ll see how these women’s children turn out…



      • mm on January 6, 2011 at 14:57

        Women might look better only because estrogen will fight harder to maintain a minimum fat % if they lose too much weight, in the same way that had those men been eating enough good protein their testosterone would have fought harder to maintain a higher minimum muscle mass %



      • Dana on February 26, 2011 at 17:10

        Women do need more glucose during lactation because we split glucose into galactose and then turn that into lactose. If we just relied on our native supplies of glucose during that time we’d quickly run out of sugar for the few tissues that need it and we’d go dry to boot, bad news for a kid in a primal situation who can’t be taken to Kroger to pick up some Similac.

        At other times of the year, not so much, you don’t even need that much glucose to grow a baby in pregnancy. In fact if you get too much glucose, the baby grows too big to get out safely. That’s why large babies are considered a risk factor for later diabetes in the mother, and why diabetes is so dangerous during pregnancy.



  5. Jerry on October 20, 2010 at 14:26

    Wow, my wrists are bigger than some of these guys arms. I mean seriously they do not look close to anything I would call healthy. And from an evolutionary standpoint, I doubt any of them could run away from a hungry lion, or kill a cave bear. Not that they would probably have to, Im sure any natural predator worth his weight would take one look at them and move on to something more nourishing

  6. anand srivastava on October 20, 2010 at 14:34

    Very Nice stories. There is nothing natural about Veganism.

  7. Stabby on October 20, 2010 at 14:50

    Is it the vegan diet that causes the cognitive impairment or the cognitive impairment that causes the vegan diet? A question for the ages.

  8. Kim on October 20, 2010 at 14:50

    It’s not just the “twig” arms, it’s the pasty skin and vacant look in their eyes. Sadly, I saw children there who are no doubt being fed a nutrionally deficient fruitarian/vegan diet. They will have small brains, poor cognitive function and other problems. I think it’s child abuse to feed a child this way.

    Interestingly, they make this big deal about fruit not making them fat. This somewhat goes back to what we were talking about yesterday. Just being thin does not=healthy. One thing we know, it could take years for nutrional deficiencies to show up. Dr. Mercola experimented with a fruit diet once and in just a week or so checked his blood and discovered his triglycerides had shot up to 3,000! That’s because fructose is metabolized in the liver and drives up tri’s. I’d be curious to see blood work on these 30 bananas people. Also, because of all the fructose and the fact that were drinking sugar cane juice, these people are essentially addicts…..sugar junkies. Of course, they’re always hungry as we know carbs burn fast and stimulate appetite. That’s why the whole video is about eating!

    • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 15:34

      Kim:

      I had actually mulled over comparing this to a meth, coke, or opium “gettaway” but in the end decided on the higher road just this once.

      But yea, that’s what I thought too, as in, sure, you’re definitely going to feel on top of the world. Not in question. But for how long? And that is a matter of dregree.

      • Aaron Blaisdell on October 20, 2010 at 21:20

        No need to speculate about comparisons between sugar addiction and addiction to cocaine or heroin. Behavioral Neuroscientists and psychopharmacologists have already written about evidence for sugar addiction and its neurochemical underpinnings. Yes, sugar addiction is due to sugar hijacking the same reward circuitry as do opiate drugs. One recent paper is a review titled Evidence for sugar addiction: Behavioral and neurochemical effects of intermittent, excessive sugar intake by Avena, Rada, and Hoebel published in 2007 in the journal Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. I can provide a copy to anyone who’s interested but doesn’t have access to the full text.



      • Christoph Dollis on October 20, 2010 at 23:24

        I believe it.



      • Bushrat on October 23, 2010 at 22:39

        I’ve been saying this but I’ve based it on nothing but personal experience. Do you have any links to those studies?



    • Jason on October 22, 2010 at 01:01

      The 70 Bannanas is crazy. The excess potassium from so many bannanas could lead to an imbalance with sodium and cause a heart attack. All of these people lookednot only physically weak (risking osteoporosis, arthritis..) but emotionally weak as well – no energy. Unless they are taking 100 different supplements a day, their bodies and brains are starving for amino acids, essential fatty acids, proteins, co-q-10. The only good thing that vegans do is that which Mr. Nikoley noted, they don’t eat grains, refind sugars, or processed stuff. But staying away from bad crap isn’t enough. The body also requires you to intake certain things. It just makes me feel bad to see these people totally misguided and oblivious to the damage they are causing to themselves. If a person wants to eat crap, it’s their choice, but it should be an informed choice. These people are ill informed, and I blame the scheister vegan/global warming con artists who equate animals with humans, and thus push their agenda on others; or who think, orwant people to think that the earth is in danger and thus push vegan on people. Rambler out:)

      • Grok on October 22, 2010 at 21:52

        “bodies and brains are starving for amino acids, essential fatty acids, proteins, co-q-10.”

        Few small problems with that. Bananas contain all 8 essential amino acids. 70 small bananas contain 77 grams of protein. Bananas have essentials fatty acids, potassium & sugars which the brain loves.

        They eat a lot more than just bananas. Done correctly, the diet isn’t deficient in much of anything. It is a a real food diet. Don’t judge the diet by the appearance of a few. That’s what the vegans like to do 😉



      • Monica on October 23, 2010 at 08:22

        Grok, they do contain all 8 essential amino acids, but as far as the abundance of them, there are other plant foods that are better (potatoes, avocado), while the amino acid completeness for animal foods is far superior.

        The essential EFA that bananas contain are LA (which people get plenty of unless they’re being tube feed) and ALA. Conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA runs around 5% to 25%: on average, much lower conversion rates if you’re male. That means that, on average, in 70 small bananas (that’s 17 lbs of bananas… seriously?), a person would convert 95 mg to 477 mg of ALA to the *really* essential fatty acids IF you have the enzymes… That seems incredibly inefficient compared to eating just one ounce of wild salmon (less than 300 times the weight of 17 lbs. bananas), which gives over 700 mg. omega 3.

        Depending on a person’s genotype, he/she could definitely be deficient in EFAs, vitamin A, B12, taurine, and who knows what else on this diet. Over the long haul, it’s a huge gamble.



      • Grok on October 23, 2010 at 11:21

        “there are other plant foods that are better”

        Of course there are. Bananas are cheap, most people like them, and are easily available year round. I think this is much of the reason the banana landed as a centerpiece.

        “Conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA”

        I know all this. It’s probably written somewhere on my site. I was PARANOID to give up my CLO when I started this diet, as I have serious joint inflammation issues. I have 2 – 3 unopened 12oz bottles I’ll probably give away. Despite training as much/more, I haven’t felt the need since I started eating veg. Efficiency isn’t the my point here, it’s that plants do have what you need.

        Yes seriously. I was eating an average of 10lbs of bananas a day. There is a lot of other variety too. Done correctly there’s hardly concern for a vitamin A deficiency. If anything the gov would tell most they’re in danger of an overdose. My personal average for the past 2 months is 375% of the RDA. All coming from real food.

        As far as I’m concerned, the whole damn country is deficient in vitamin A, B12, D, taurine. I have no problem looking past this detail. They should probably be supplemented on a paleo diet as well.

        The only reason I defend the diet is because I have tried it and followed the protocol fairly closely. I’ve taken A LOT away from it so far! During my research, the people I saw having issues… really shouldn’t be blaming the diet.

        Expect a full review fairly soon.

        Put emotions and dogma aside & lets think outside the box people. <– Not directing this comment at you Monica 😉

        Hate the fact (I feel) a disclaimer is needed to avoid a battle. Why the fuck do people online get offended so easily? #1000000Question



      • Monica on October 23, 2010 at 11:32

        Grok, no offense taken, although I just disagree.

        You may be interested in this little piece on vitamin A:

        Cheers.



      • Bushrat on October 23, 2010 at 22:41

        “As far as I’m concerned, the whole damn country is deficient in vitamin A, B12, D, taurine.”

        Yeah, if they ate a bit more meat and liver that’d probably fix most of their problems.



      • Dana on February 26, 2011 at 17:14

        Humans *are* animals. You’re paleo/primal and you haven’t figured that out?

        I wish people could take each issue individually and try to come to some kind of understanding about it. Look at what rabbits did to Australia. We’re more powerful and probably more numerous than rabbits. If you’re not scared, you’re not paying attention.

        You know what I tell a vegan who claims meat eating causes global warming? I tell them to go look up the word “silvopasture” and then invite them to introduce me to a variety of grain or bean that does not require full sunlight in which to grow. Then I ask them where all the cedar forests in Iraq got to. Oh wait, grain farming killed them. Right. What’s one of the foremost causes of desertification? Agriculture, because you have to clear trees. What’s one of the claimed major causes of climate change? Deforestation.

        Quit arguing shit on their terms and start learning about actual ecology. Because ecology itself refutes vegan arguments.



  9. Russ Taylor on October 20, 2010 at 15:00

    Wow, I didn’t expect to see any kind of Super Athlete Physique’s but I really didn’t expect to see what appear to be “beer guts!” Some emaciation I anticipated but the mix of emaciation and flabbiness was pretty surprising. And that poor child! He did not look healthy! Such skinny arms! Kinda sad stuff.

  10. Craig on October 20, 2010 at 15:32

    What happened to the Lean Gains post?

    • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 16:03

      Shhhhhhh. It’s a secret still until tomorrow. Maybe tonight. My eff up in trying to pword protect it for Matin’s review.

      • Jim Arkus on October 21, 2010 at 05:40

        LeanGains post? What?! I can’t wait! I love that guy!



  11. Garth Whelan on October 20, 2010 at 15:39

    The women are bigger than the men! It’s actually quite surprising.

  12. suzan on October 20, 2010 at 15:59

    The fruit/veg looked good. I kept thinking how nice it would have been to serve it all with a git steak. I feel very sorry for those folks. They seem nice, and sincere, but very misguided. If they continue to eat that way, in a few years, they’ll be sick, and probably blame themselves for not being diligent enough, or blame their genes, or the environment.

    • Paleo Rob on October 20, 2010 at 16:13

      I just had a quick scan of the 30Bad forums. They are already sick. There are heaps of posts talking about chronic fatigue, massive fat gain etc.

      • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 16:30

        I pay almost no attention but am not surprised to know it’s worse than I feared.

        It’s an extreme diet.

        We’re omnivores.



    • suzan on October 20, 2010 at 15:59

      with a great steak, not a git steak! LOL

  13. VW on October 20, 2010 at 16:17

    “… I don’t pursue “health” directly, per se. I pursue pristine body composition within the framework of a real foods, omnivorous, largely “paleo” diet with a mixture of cooked & raw foods.”

    Do you rate having a good body composition more highly than having outstanding health (to the extent two aren’t compatible)? Surely you’re still extremely interested in being healthy enough to live a long and well.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 16:22

      VW:

      You are missing the point. Think about it a little more. What do I mean?

      • VW on October 20, 2010 at 16:32

        I might not actually be missing the point. As I’ve been reading your stuff and the accompanying comments of everyone else, I’m seeing quite a few comments that relate to peoples’ arms and muscles and things like that. That’s just something I never, ever notice or think about, and it suggests to me that there might possibly be less of an interest in overall health from people here than I’m interested.

        Then again, it might not suggest anything of the sort.

        It’s equally likely, I suppose, that I’m the one who is being a little unusual. But the fact remains that all I’ve ever cared about was maintaining health and I never gave two shits about having big muscles or anything like that. It’s perplexing to me that anyone puts such an emphasis on those things. (Full disclosure: I was always pretty big and athletic from a very early age and had a long life as a serious professional athlete, so I understand that body composition has never been a “problem” for me in the sense that I’ve always been lean, athletic, etc.)



      • Paleo Rob on October 20, 2010 at 16:41

        Just because you “never gave two shits about having big muscles” doesn’t change the fact that a good muscular frame is a marker for health just as much as any blood panel.



      • VW on October 20, 2010 at 17:04

        A “good muscular frame” (had to put it in quotes since you did that to something I typed. 🙂 ) might well be something I’ve always taken for granted, Paleo Rob. I’ll admit that.



      • Rob K on October 21, 2010 at 17:56

        It is something you’ve taken for granted. I’m small, and incredibly un-athletic. I don’t give a rats ass about being muscular or being proud of lifting weights. I’m focused on my health — feeling well and living well. Since I’ve been focusing on eating more paleo, I’ve been emotionally healthier and physically stronger than I have ever been in my life. I can work longer and harder now at 37 than I could when I was 22. I believe it’s a side benefit of the better diet.



      • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 16:37

        Well beyond the recognition that men probably ought to naturally have bigger lean mass than women (not in evidence in the video), do you know, VW, what fuels your immune system?

        Where do the raw materials come from? What happens when you loose 40% of your lean mass?

        Hint: you die.



      • Dana on February 26, 2011 at 17:16

        How in the world do you build muscles in the absence of steroid supplementation if you are not in pristine health? Your body’s got more important things to do than put amino acids into your arms and legs if something is seriously wrong with you.



    • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 16:42

      Not to carry on because you’ve been so sporting here, VW,but what I mean is that health is an ephemorous concept. Body composition is not.

      I don’t have any idea of how “healthy” I am, if by that you mean an assured long life in vitality. None of us do. What I can do is look at my body comp, I can eat a diet humans evolved to eat, and the rest is simply unknown, but I will say this: it’s very nice at 50 to get flirted with by women half you age and to have a wife that just fucking hates that. 🙂

      • VW on October 20, 2010 at 17:02

        Fair enough. Naturally, nothing is guaranteed.



      • Kim on October 20, 2010 at 17:21

        Just turned 50 myself and get much younger guys looking. I think it has to do with the whole “cougar” thing that’s so popular. But seriously, I like having a guy that looks a lot older than me. Makes me look even younger!



  14. Dave Fish on October 20, 2010 at 16:38

    I lived in Australia for six years and these people are what the Aussies would colloquially call “Wankers”. Not sure if that was a durian he was ripping open near the beginning but when I had some in Malaysia they used a machete to cut it open. If it is a durian, it’s pretty damn big!

    • TheMightyQuinn on October 20, 2010 at 19:43

      It’s a jackfruit.

      • Aaron Blaisdell on October 20, 2010 at 21:25

        If it was a durien, everyone standing around it would have been asking who just cut one, if you know what I mean.



      • Dave Fish on October 20, 2010 at 21:43

        I do indeed. They do smell nasty. Hard to believe Asians call it the king of fruits.



    • gallier2 on October 21, 2010 at 02:48

      No, it’s a jackfruit, quite good (tastes a bit like dry pine-apple) but nasty as it contains a very thick juice that has a bit the texture of wood glue. The Comorians with which I tried them used petrol to clean the finger afterwards.

      The only durian in the video is the guy that is seen all along, it’s Durianrider, you remember the vegan that tried to impress people here with his physique during the China Study dismantelment of Denis Minger.

  15. Tim Rangitsch on October 20, 2010 at 17:05

    Certainly having muscle mass to see a person through hard times, injury, illness and old age is important. Muscles mass is functional, it is defense against injuries, falls etc. It is also a reservoir that will be drawn on as we age. It’s going to be tough to rebuild at older ages and lacking diets, and it is directly correlated with organ health, systemic health. You don’t need to be Arnold pumped, but a person needs some muscle mass.

    • gallier2 on October 21, 2010 at 02:52

      Not only that, the muscle mass is the visible part, but protein were also drawn from the bones, the binding tissues and the other organs, making all the body less resistant.

  16. D on October 20, 2010 at 18:20

    What I cannot understand is where they get “low fat” veganism is the key to health. I think you can be a healthy vegetarian if you ate lots of cheese and eggs. You may get away with a vegan diet for 10 years or so but I would think you would load up on tons of avocados, nuts and coconuts and take lots of oil to get full.

    But eating nothing but fruit? That would have to make you so light headed and nutty.

    Also, these people are so into saving the planet. Isnt eating 70 bananas in a day taking a toll on the food supply? What will the poor monkeys eat? 🙂

    • VW on October 20, 2010 at 18:24

      That guy has to be trolling when he says he eats 70 bananas/day. It’s not even good trolling since it’s so far over the top.

      The fact that he’s apparently 100% serious is something that I can’t fully wrap my head around. And why the hell did he choose bananas? Homer Simpson got ripped on apple bars, so why not 70 apples/day?

      • Fern on October 21, 2010 at 12:23

        I was looking around their forum and they have specific guidelines about what fruit to eat. They say to go easy on apples because they are too filling and low calorie preventing one from eating enough volume to get in enough calories.

        They also have a subforum dedicated to periods of time where one eats only 1 fruit (e.g., only bananas).

        Crazy.



    • gallier2 on October 21, 2010 at 03:03

      Especially considering that banana culture is especially environment destructing. The amount of pesticides and fungicides used to protect the extremely vulnerable Cavendish banana is staggering. Look up the cancer problems in middle America from the plantation workers or the soil problems of the french West-indies (Guadeloupe, Martinique). This is a real problem. Another problem is that the Cavendish is the last mass produceable banana left since the Gros-Michel erradication in the sixties.

    • Paul C on October 21, 2010 at 08:11

      Eliminating animal killing is the priority for veganism, that’s why eggs and cheese are out. Male chickens don’t lay eggs so the chicks are killed. When laying declines, the chickens become soup.

      Same with cheese, when cows’ production declines, then take a ride to the slaughterhouse. Living within 4 miles of a meat-packing plant, I see these stinking trucks full of old dairy cows all the time.

      It’s not about health. It’s more like ‘this is the best we can do with the foods we have left’.

    • Grok on October 21, 2010 at 20:24

      D, eat as many bananas as you can… and tell me what number you stop at.

      I’ll eat 3,000-5,000 calories in a sitting to achieve satiety eating only sweet fruit. If I eat “paleo” I’ll stop somewhere between 7,000-12,000, and often won’t even achieve satiety. The fruit carbs are very satisfying, and you’ll feel great enough to go run a half marathon afterward.

      True the bananas are probably hell on the environment. I won’t defend that.

      • Richard Nikoley on October 21, 2010 at 23:07

        I guesss it goes to show the difference in individuals. I can do about two, maybe three pounds of meat, especially pork ribs, but then won’t eat for 30 hours.

        On normal days, it’s a stretch to put down even 3k cals for me.

        Fruit. A small bowl, then I want to gag.



      • Grok on October 22, 2010 at 01:42

        The fat/protein thing just never hits the satiety trigger for me. I’ve eaten jars of coconut oil, and sticks of butter just for a tests. You’ve probably seen some of my omelets. I’ve never been “filled” by one.

        450-650 carbs in a meal and I’m smiling 🙂



    • MJ on October 23, 2010 at 04:39

      I totally agree. Apparently these people have never read the book “Banana: The Fate Of The Fruit That Changed The World” by Dan Koepell. Not an innocent fruit to say the least. Awesome book though, talks about how bananas are extremely hybridized because of a disease that’s wiping out bananas globally and the consequeces of living in a banana republic. If they want to save the planet they better pick another fruit.

  17. Sebastien on October 20, 2010 at 18:28

    I wrote a post about my personal story following a raw vegan diet here: http://paleodietlifestyle.com/how-steve-pavlina-almost-killed-me/

    At one point I was so weak and underweight and my digestion was so messed up that I seriously thought I was close to death. This stuff is dangerous, especially if you’re not healthy to start with, it’s not just about those people getting skinny, it’s about some of them doing irreversible damage to their bodies.

    • Nathaniel on October 20, 2010 at 19:46

      Man, this is a very disturbing story. Thanks for sharing it.

  18. Annette H on October 20, 2010 at 18:47

    Willis Echenbach is a master of many skills, including story-telling. He’ s one of my heroes and I read every post of his on WUWT – he has his feet and ideas firmly based in reality.

  19. Christoph Dollis on October 20, 2010 at 19:23

    Veganism: Elitist, Well Off Guys & Gals?

    Well good for them if they are. What’s wrong with that?

    I thought the Sisson/Primal Fuel post (and your philosophy) set to rest the notion that there is anything wrong with being well off and using your economic resources as you wish.

    Did I miss something?

    Anyway, interesting post; I just didn’t understand the headline.

    And whether it’s 30 bananas a day, or 70, as Durianrider claims to eat, that’s one hell of an extreme diet. Even at 30, about 3,000 – 3,500 kcals depending on the size of the bananas, that’s a whopping 780g of carbs, about 130g of it being fructose — highly associated with fatty liver. Unlike other sugars, fructose goes straight to the liver to be metabolized pretty much exactly like alcohol.

    Chris Masterjohn has an interesting post on an animal study about processed vs. naturally occurring fructose and how one may be much more harmful than the other that I thought you may find of interest:

    High-Fructose Corn Syrup is Sweet Poison, Honey Is Yummy — Against “Pulling a Campbell”

    Kudos to WUWT. It rocks.

    • Nathaniel on October 20, 2010 at 19:47

      I think the difference is that these raw vegan folks think that everybody should eat like they do. They don’t say “Well this works for me, but to each his own.”

      That is pretty much the opposite of what they say. They think anyone who disagrees with their diet is ignorant and amoral.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 21:20

      Now, Christoph, seriously, do you think Im going to fall for your contived connection-projection over vegans and Mark Sisson?

      Seriously?

      • Christoph Dollis on October 20, 2010 at 22:49

        Then don’t.

        I’m just saying I have no idea why those with an obvious libertarian/free market/capitalism bent, as yours truly possesses and you too, I think, do the whole “elite well off” thing as if this is bad.

        The GOP always does it in elections. I guess it works politically, but I prefer the Ronnie Reagan (or Ayn Rand or whoever) excel and reap the fruits, being proud thereof thing.

        Anyway, I enjoyed the rest of the post. It’s just one study, but what do you think of the idea natural fructose, in honey at least with all its long-evolved chemical cofactors, may not be all that damaging at all?

        It’s something I’d want to be true, which makes me suspicious of it, but on the other hand it also makes sense.



      • Richard Nikoley on October 20, 2010 at 22:55

        Sheesh, so I gotta spell it out, is that it?

        Ok then. It’s not their wealth but how they pretend to dispise it. Clear enough?



      • Christoph Dollis on October 20, 2010 at 23:07

        Yes. Thanks for spelling it out.



      • Rob K on October 21, 2010 at 18:16

        Hunter-gatherers don’t get THAT much honey. They eat it when they can find it, and when they do, they also eat the honey comb.



  20. Nancy on October 20, 2010 at 19:36

    So sad for the children, I’ve seen healthier people from 3rd world countries. Emaciated, yes pale, pathetic. Can we assume these are marginally intelligent people? What the hell?

    • Bushrat on October 23, 2010 at 22:55

      Intelligence is no protection from idiocy. In fact, intelligent people are often more open minded and thu susceptible to silly ideas.

  21. D on October 20, 2010 at 19:39

    At 2:50, what the hell is that he is opening up? A durian?
    I hear durians smell so bad they are banned in public areas in Asia. I know most raw foodies love them.
    Arent we supposed to be attracted to the food we eat? Shouldn’t it smell good to us? Most peoples description of the durian smell is that it smells like decomposing flesh.. Ironic they all love it!!

  22. Chet on October 20, 2010 at 19:47

    D,

    That’s jackfruit. Durian is more spikey and smells amazing haha . I’m one of the few that loves it and no i’m not fruitardian.

    • D on October 20, 2010 at 19:54

      Ah, ok.

      I just googled “how durian smells” and got this:

      Here are some of the ways that the smell of Durian has been described:

      fermented onions
      overripe cheese.
      Rotting fish.
      Unwashed socks.
      A city dump on a hot summers day.

      Historians report that Sir Stamford Raffles, who established Singapore as a British trading post in 1819, held his nose and ran in the other direction if he caught even a whiff of the dreaded fruit.
      Another former British governor likened the stench to carrion in custard.
      Biologists believe that the bad smell attacts jungle animals to eat the fruit, thus facilitating seed dispersal.

      Also, this sign from the Singapore Metro.. No Smoking, No eating / drinking, No flammable goods, No durian
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg

      • Chris on October 20, 2010 at 23:56

        Durian is banned in hotels in Hong Kong because of the smell. I once purchased a pillow that was stored near the durian section. It stank so badly I couldn’t get near it let alone sleep on it. A washing machine trip later it still reeked and was consigned to the bin. Bizarrely, durian does actually taste quite nice (the texture is unusual), but you need to have your nose amputated to get near it.



  23. Bart on October 20, 2010 at 20:22

    Durianrider is a tool. The vegans are starting to look so 90’s. More people are Daniel Vitalis are opening vegan eyes to raw meat, good pastured butter, etc.

  24. Grok on October 20, 2010 at 23:04

    I’ve been on this diet for almost 4 months now. I’m poor and it’s not cheap off of the equator. No real food diets are cheap. Not if you’re buying food from a store anyway.

    I’ll be doing a review about my experience so far soon. It’ll likely burst many folks bubbles, but frankly I don’t give a shit. I had 600 carbs just for lunch. Some days I eat 4,500 calories just from bananas.

    These scrawny body types are not due 100% to the diet. There are bodybuilders eating this way t0o. I doubt many of the people in this video know how to do a deadlift, but they can probably run for 5 hours.

    Thank you for recognizing some of the good points Richard. This is why your site is one of the few I still troll around. Many turn a blind eye.

    The fruits do preach:

    1.) Realfood
    2.) Exercise
    3.) Stress free lifestyle (play)
    4.) Drug free (caffeine etc..)
    5.) Sustainability

    In no way do I think this diet is the natural human diet. That’s just close minded to me. If you troll around that site much, you’ll probably see me in some arguments. This diet is not for everyone probably, but I do think everyone could take something away from it.

    For the record… Durian is an unfuckingbelievable fruit. It’s like an orgasm for your mouth. I have no trouble calling it the King.

    • Melissa on October 21, 2010 at 14:38

      I thought you got banned from that site?

    • Melissa on October 21, 2010 at 14:38

      Also for a short time I read that last sentence “For the record… Durianrider is an unfuckingbelievable fruit. It’s like an orgasm for your mouth. I have no trouble calling it the King.”

      Had me a bit worried…

      • Richard Nikoley on October 21, 2010 at 14:47

        Melissa, no worries. I and I’ sure everyone knows you’d never allow that in your mouth.

        There are limits. 🙂



      • Grok on October 21, 2010 at 20:34

        LOL – Maybe you were fantasizing 😉

        Yes, I was banned while defending paleo honor, but I was invited back. I don’t believe in the vegan religion and never will, so I declined. I dont have a problem with animals as food, it’s just not for me at the moment. I’m staying veg for a while.



      • Sue on October 26, 2010 at 05:07

        Why?



      • Sue on October 26, 2010 at 05:07

        Why are you staying veg?



      • Grok on October 26, 2010 at 08:07

        Because it’s the best thing I’ve experienced for exercise recovery, joint pain (lack of), and energy/speed. Frankly those are the bulk of what I care about right now.



      • Seb on March 28, 2011 at 19:54

        That’s great! I also found it to be the best thing for performance! My brother had the same experience but he’s no longer vegan he doesn’t train anymore which is unfortunated. He got really big on a vegan diet but he stopped to ”be like everybodyelse” and he lost muscle and gained fat.

        Be vegan diet I don’t mean one like those guy in that video, that’s a strict fruit diet … not what I’d recommend for gaining muscle mass.



  25. Nancy on October 20, 2010 at 23:13

    A mouth orgasm? Where can I find some?

    • Grok on October 20, 2010 at 23:57

      Asian market. Probably only frozen though, which is not as good as fresh. Not that’d I’d know. Only frozen around here. I’ve searched far and wide. I did briefly consider a move to Thailand. It’s that good.

  26. Andy on October 21, 2010 at 13:45

    Well, apparently eating raw meat and high fat diet rots your teeth, just look at Freelee’s friend:

    “So the big culprit with tooth decay (& osteoporosis) is highly acidic food choices like meat, dairy and grains. After eating these foods the body has to leach the mineral calcium from our teeth and bones to neutralise the acidic environment created.”

    There. I guess I have no choice but to start eating 30 bananas a day to get healthy teeth.

    On a more serious note, I didn’t get a single cavity in over 8 years of eating total junk and drinking up to 6 litres of soda per week and not even brushing my teeth every day. Some of us are just blessed I guess, although I’m not gonna push my luck any longer. Just started my third month of paleo(ish) diet, no more 9 months pregnant look after meals and lost over an inch from my waist. Weight has stayed the same, but I’ve always been lean, 5’11 and 178lb atm.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 21, 2010 at 14:04

      “meat, dairy and grains.”

      Talk about conflation, confounding variables and confirmation bias all in one.

      How about employ a bit of logic and speculate that the elimination of grains, refined sugar, frankenoils and processed foods might tease out a few realizations?

      These folks are the quintessential baby, bathwater, toss it all out types.

  27. Pelinor on October 21, 2010 at 02:15

    I’ve eaten durian in Zanzibar, it smells foul but it taste “an orgasm for your mouth” “Grok”. The Africans love it. The Oxford Dictionary says ” notable for its fetid smell & agreeable taste”.

  28. Austin on October 21, 2010 at 03:36

    Now, I do love fruits as an after dinner snack and the durian, in my opinion anyway, deserves the title of king of fruits. There are in fact different breeds of durian with differing ratios of sweetness to bitterness. Mouth orgasm indeed!! And Andrew Zimmern is a wimp. But I digress.

    That retreat looks like a workshop on how to give yourself malnutrition and feeding children in this manner is criminal.The men in that video look like crap. I swear my biceps are bigger than some of those fellas’ thighs. And what’s with that guy with a gut hanging out?

    • Dave Fish on October 21, 2010 at 07:34

      I’ve tried durian twice and while the taste wasn’t bad the fact that it kept repeating on me for 24 hours allowing me to retaste it again and again turned me off. I do like durian ice cream when I’m in Singapore though.

    • Grok on October 21, 2010 at 20:40

      Many of the hard core vegan folks have been on completion fasts too. 40 days or whatever without food will make you pretty skinny.

      Yeah the kids could probably use more nutrition. They probably aren’t getting very many calories with their tweety bird appetites. Lots of little boy were very skinny before the junk food days. All the boys in my family were skinny kids. We were all picky eaters.

  29. Dan Linehan on October 21, 2010 at 03:45

    Great post Richard. I feel like you picked up a lot of the subtleties here that are usually missed on paleo blogs.

    Both the paleo and raw fruit diets are evolutionary-based, but very different. Paleo sticks to much more nutrient dense foods that humans started eating when we began crafting stone tools to break apart bones and eat marrow, ~ two million years ago.

    Before that, say three to six million years ago, our human predecessors were mostly fruititarian. Our species is just so versatile it’s unbelievable; we can live just fine on all fruit or all meat; making both sides of the diet war valid in their own way.

    The one thing that we haven’t evolved to subsist on for extended periods are grains. And, as you mentioned, neither diet allows for them. Ironically, grains account for probably 80% of a typical American’s diet, between consumption of pasta, bread, sugars, and so on.

    I wonder if the skinny fat build of many of the fruititarians is due to their diet or simply because of a lack of weightlifting? It was fairly obvious from the video that the men had a pretty low muscle mass though, for one reason or another.

    On top of that, can you imagine how inconvenient that raw food diet would be? The sheer amount of food you have to eat on a daily basis is ridiculous. They apparently advocate that followers pee 8-12 times a day, and even go so far as to say if you don’t pee that much (including waking up multiple during the night to go) then you aren’t healthy.

    Even if all the fructose isn’t causing liver damage, which it very well could be, the raw fruit diet fails massively simply on convenience alone. I mean, even a regular vegan diet is not anywhere near as restrictive, let alone a paleo diet.

    Is there a way to test for liver damage from raw fruit diets such as the 30BAD? Has anyone done a lipid profile on a fruititarian? I’d be very curious to know their triglyceride levels in particular.

    • Grok on October 21, 2010 at 20:47

      Good comment Dan.

      Many in the fruit crowd do full blood tests just like the paleo crowd. Durianrider has his blood tests up on youtube. I’ve considered getting mine done.

      The biggest inconvenience comes from keeping ripe fruit on hand. Grocery stores don’t carry ripe fruit, they only throw it away. The rest of the diet is very convenient. No cooking, dishes, and usually only a knife or maybe a spoon for utensils.

  30. Jared on October 21, 2010 at 05:53

    Hey! Mr. Salty called. He wants his physique back…yikes!

    I think they would make a great meal for a tiger…their supple, fatty livers would taste FANTASTIC!!!

  31. Jared on October 21, 2010 at 05:58

    I love how fruitarians/vegans believe their way of eating is more “sustainable…” seriously, how many acres of forest would have to be destroyed in order to supply enough land to grow 30 (0r 70!) pieces of fruit a day for every man, woman, and child???

  32. Elenor on October 21, 2010 at 06:53

    I’m aghast! That’s so completely child abuse! Where are those little kids going to get adequate healthy nutrition to grow up on?! (And I am absolutely against ‘the state’ stepping in: if you want to damage your children, and sentence them to a lifetime of smaller brains, weaker bodies, and lower health — have at it — just don’t make me pay for their rehabilitation!) (Nature IS red in tooth and claw!)

    Their eyes — each of them who was shown — look horrid , they look ill! Those sunken collarbones! Those corpses lying on the ground (can a corpse do yoga!?)! Their cadaverous faces! I’m sorry, but to me that looked like the Survivor groups after they’ve gone a month or more without any food!!

    Thanks (?) Richard, for showing me this group of dreadfully sickly people — who cannot look in the mirror and see they’re ill! (I’m just ashast!)

  33. David Csonka on October 21, 2010 at 06:54

    I wonder what they will eat when the cavendish goes extinct from the fungus spreading around the world’s banana plantations.

    Change to 30 Apples a day?

  34. Jennifer on October 21, 2010 at 07:03

    I’d like to know the diet of the guy who was husking coconuts and making coconut oil. An older guy with long gray beard. Guaranteed he doesn’t like on 30 bananas a day.

    How in hell do you have the time during the day to eat 70 bananas?

    • Richard Nikoley on October 21, 2010 at 07:18

      Yea, he was the one person who looked to have some decent musculature. I doubt he’s eating only 10% fat — not if he’s into eating coconuts.

  35. Logan on October 21, 2010 at 07:46

    Pretty, healthy-looking women… Skeletal, weak, unhealthy-looking men. If this was the paleolithic, their little society wouldn’t last too long, methinks, with Grok and his buddies around.

    Seriously, though, I can’t see why that body type is something that anyone would aspire to. But hey, let ’em eat foolishly. Let them think that the whole world can eat as they do. Just be ready with the clubs and spears when they try to make us comply with their beliefs.

    • Paul C on October 21, 2010 at 08:41

      When endurance running is viewed as the ultimate measure of fitness, you convince yourself that muscle mass is not necessary. Durianrider puts a lot of emphasis on marathon times when promoting raw fruit athleticism.

      I was in a 10K race where the winner was John Yuda, from Tanzania. I looked up his stats and was amazed to see he was 5’6″, 104lbs. This was before I was paleo and actually had fleeting thoughts of trying to lose mass to be more competitive. Thankfully that aspiration has been fixed thanks to Mark Sisson and others.

      • Seb on March 28, 2011 at 19:49

        One thing alot of people don’t know is that when Mark Sisson was a competitive runner and triathlete he was vegetarian! Like his wife still his today (mostly).

        There’s many vegetarian/vegan pro-triathlete (including me).

        Dave Scott, Brendan Brazier, Eneko llanos, Chris Lieto, Rip Esselstyn, Nick Sterghos, Rich Roll (ultraman), Joe Gambles, Maik Twelsiek. Simon Whitfield is not vegetarian but he’s plant-based , he follow the Thrive diet principle.

        I believe Mark Allen was vegetarian when he compete against Dave Scott.



  36. MountainDew on October 21, 2010 at 08:33

    Even if they DID lift any weights, they’re not getting enough protein to build any muscle. 30BAD would, according to FitDay, only give you 38g of protein a day. Good luck building any muscle that way!

    • Richard Nikoley on October 21, 2010 at 08:47

      He’ll, good luck with not losing lean mass to fuel your immune system and other critical mechanisms.

  37. Chet on October 21, 2010 at 08:49

    The frequent urination is one of the symptoms of fatty acid imbalance. It could also be because fruits is mostly water but how would they know. Of course, with zero fat coming in, they get no EFA’s which is important for brain function and a million other things. I hope they at least eat some nuts and flax seeds. I’m more concerned for the well being of the kids though. They just follow what the parents are eating and have no knowledge of nutrition for robust growth. The lack of omega 3 could lead to learning problems, memory loss, and impairing neuron development at the most crucial time of their life.

    • Kim on October 21, 2010 at 10:38

      I was thinking the frequent urination could be a sign of diabetes. Who knows, but it’s not necessarily a good thing.

  38. Check the links… | Pure Spontaneity on October 22, 2010 at 11:29

    […] recents here and […]

  39. Monica on October 22, 2010 at 14:25

    Some of them look seriously sick, particularly “Justin” and the guy pounding the sugar cane. Some of the women look great, as does the older guy making coconut oil.

    One thing I’ve been wondering about for awhile, just generally, is whether there is a lot of individual variation in the ability to convert carbohydrates to protein. Conversion of carbs to amino acids is something you don’t hear a lot about in the paleo community, but there are pathways to convert carbohydrates to the nonessential amino acids. Could this be the reason that some vegans do very poorly very quickly, while others seems to do better for much longer on the diet?

    Besides the mere issue of digesting an enormous amount of plant matter, there’s the issue of individual variability in beta carotene conversion to retinol, ALA to EPA and DHA (higher conversion rates in women), taurine as conditionally essential in some folks, etc. I would love to know how long coconut dude has been eating raw vegan…. Maybe some have a “lucky” genetic draw to be able to tolerate veganism longer?

    Don’t get me wrong… not something I’d want to do. I love fruit, though. I could definitely enjoy such a retreat for a few days. (Unfortunately, I’d probably gain 5 lbs. just by looking at all that fruit.)

    • David Csonka on March 29, 2011 at 15:13

      How are the nitrogen amino groups synthesized from glucose? From what I understand, the non-essential proteins are synthesized by catabolizing other amino acids, not from glucose.

  40. Christ on October 24, 2010 at 14:20
  41. Tomek R. on October 24, 2010 at 15:53

    These are “amateur” vegetarians. More sophisticated ones, who actually learned what they are doing are people like Kevin Gianni from “Renegate Health”, Mike Adams “Health Ranger” from Naturalnews or Gabriel Cousens. They are all very intelligent people, and fully intelectually fit, unlike those banana guys you show.
    Out of the three this Cousens guy definitely has muscular deficiencies, despite having extremaly masculine features. But he he supposedly cures those civilization diseases like diabetes with his natural-raw diet, so it’s not that bad. Two others look OK.

    • Seb on March 28, 2011 at 19:37

      Google Patrick baboumian, he’s vegetarian and one of the strongest man in germany. Or Jake Shields life long vegetarian or that guy also a lifelong vegetarian :

      The list of muscular vegetarian and vegan is huge… but if you believe all vegetarians are weak… well you’ll find evidence of that and will not see those who aren’t.

      I’m not into weight lifting but I gained 20 pounds of muscle few months after become vegan (from vegetarian to vegan) how? I swam 3 times a week and trained harder than anyone would be willing to! I ate alot of protein rich foods … no superfoods or protein powders…none of that no thanks!

      • Richard Nikoley on March 29, 2011 at 14:32

        BULLSHIT!

        There is no comparison between vegetarian and vegan, particularly in a training context. A person who eats nothing but eggs and drinks nothing but milk could call him self a vegetarian.

        The only distinction worth making is whether someone eats animal derived foods or doesn’t.



      • CG on March 29, 2011 at 15:40

        Wait. Let me get this straight. You ate a lot of “protein rich” foods, that were planet based? Care to tell me which planet, gram per gram, has a higher density of protein than meat (or animal products)?

        And – before you mention eggs you might to know that it is *meat* and an *animal product*…



      • CG on March 29, 2011 at 15:43

        Also known as plant, not planet as my trigger happy brain got ahead of myself.



      • Seb on March 29, 2011 at 17:24

        Hi CG, I didn’t ate egg during that time and I still don’t.

        There’s many protein rich food that come from plants here’s some :

        Hemp seeds (35%)
        Almonds (22%)
        Peanut butter
        Roasted peanuts
        Spirulina (up to 70% protein)
        Chlorella (50-65%)
        Tempeh (20%)
        Tofu (the brand I take is 19% proteins)
        Pumpkin seeds (35%)
        Flax seeds
        Chia seeds
        Goji Berries (13% it’s pretty high for a fruit)
        Incan Berries (15% also high for a fruit)
        Legumes, mostly red beans, chichpea and red peas but I don’t eat that much legumes
        Quinoa
        Millet
        Amaranth
        Sunflower seed

        The only supplemental protein I take if you call that a supplement was in the form of bars (Clif bars, 10 grams per bars)

        I also eat LOTS of leafy green vegetable which are high in free form amino acids. Mostly kale!



  42. Christ on October 25, 2010 at 05:55

    Vegans like the Health ranger look OK only because they consume protein powders and potions grown in labs and various “superfoods” imported from around the globe with juicers,Vitamix’s,food dehydrators ect…I guess that works for some people but personally I like real food

    • Seb on March 28, 2011 at 19:29

      Nothing to do with protein powders and superfoods, etc… I have none of those things and I look great there’s many vegan that look great without those… I’m sure most vegan don’t take superfoods and protein powder…

  43. VW on January 11, 2011 at 03:18
  44. M on February 3, 2011 at 06:28

    Wow, just watched this video and its pretty obvious they’re all deluded. Gorgeous fruits, but add vegetables AND lots of meat. I could never go veggie – my body craves meat. Especially at certain times of the month when I need to get in lots of iron. I have a veggie (although techinically pescetarian) friend who eats fish occaisonally but can’t give blood because her iron levels are too low.

  45. […] seen me poke fun at the monkey enviers before — though monkeys don't have bananas delivered by the truckload — and this shall be no […]

  46. Seb on March 28, 2011 at 19:12

    ”And don’t even get me started on what they refer to as “workouts.” I’m 50 years old in January and just this morning pulled 305# for 4 reps in the deadlift, followed by 275# for another four. That’s a workout.”

    LOL you call that a workout? Come train with me buddy! I’ve been vegan for more than 10 years! I challenge you to swim, bike or run faster than I do! There’s no way you’ll keep up. The only person I know that run faster than I do … well he’s also vegan.

    I’m vegan for health and mostly performance reason (trust me I tried high meat/high fat/low carbs crazy retarded caveman diet and it does not work AT ALL for endurance sport or even things like sprinting. ( I run a 400 meter in 52 secs how fast do you run one?)

    By the way those guy are FRUITARIAN not average vegans. It’s like saying ”oh that guy is a breatharian and he’s super skinny so all vegan are skinny” I understand you want to convince yourself that your caveman diet is the best but that’s just stupid.

    What does it change in your life that they are vegan/fruitarian/whatever? If you’re so insecure about your diet that you need to hate other people that follow a diet extremely different than yours then maybe that diet is not so great huh?

    You know why I never feel the need to bash on other people’s diet? Because each time I win a race I know that I couldn’t have done it eating tons of dead animals and secretions from animals.

    • Richard Nikoley on March 29, 2011 at 13:10

      Seb:

      You’re delusional. If you think vegans GENERALLY outperform omnivores in sports competitions in general, you’re a fucking idiot and not worth any time at all.

      If veganism was the real key to performance in anything, all competitive athletes would be vegan and not a tiny fraction of deluded outliers.

      Now go fuck off.

    • Phocion Timon on March 29, 2011 at 13:40

      LOL, yeah, what Nikoley said with emphasis on his last sentence.

    • Carly on March 29, 2011 at 13:41

      “You know why I never feel the need to bash on other people’s diet?”
      “trust me I tried high meat/high fat/low carbs crazy retarded caveman diet ”

      Contradiction much?!

    • Richard Nikoley on March 29, 2011 at 14:29

      Oh, and Seb, how about point me to your body comp photos and a video proving that you’re not just a pimply faced teenager on his dad’s computer.

      Here’s mine:

      DL 305×4 and 285×4

      https://freetheanimal.com/2010/10/leangains-martin-berkhan-means-it.html

      Also, what age are you and how long have you been training?

    • mike on March 29, 2011 at 14:54

      big compassionate vegan using the ‘R’ word just seems so hypocritical.

  47. Martin on March 29, 2011 at 14:11

    I can’t help but feel all this diet hate is destroying what was becoming such a productive online community. Read the research studies, put forward your personal synopsis and let others make their own judgements. Take inspiration from people such as Martin Berkhan and his willingness to be objective about his own beliefs. Do not denounce someone for the sake of your own esteem. *Braces for the torrent*

    • Richard Nikoley on March 29, 2011 at 14:25

      “Read the research studies, put forward your personal synopsis and let others make their own judgements.”

      After you, Martin.

    • David Csonka on March 29, 2011 at 15:01

      Don’t think of it as diet hate. Just imagine a monologue by George Carlin and you’ll probably get a grasp of what Richard does here.

      He swears all he wants, doesn’t give a shit what others think, and is determined to hold up the idiocy of others to be ridiculed. Is that about right Richard? 😀

      • Richard Nikoley on March 29, 2011 at 15:13

        That should about do it, David.

        Anyone expecting that I’m going to pursue the values of others over my own has surely taken a wrong turn somewhere.



  48. Martin on March 29, 2011 at 14:35

    My beliefs on nutrition tend to reflect your own Richard. But this is beside the point. I fear this wonderfully inspirational site is heading down a negative route. The aim of my previous post was to highlight this and point out that wasting time in anti-vegan tirades is not a productive means of educating the paleo community.

    • Richard Nikoley on March 29, 2011 at 14:51

      Martin:

      And how many other places can they go? I can name a dozen off the top of my head.

      I will never, ever understand those of you who think I have some duty to do things other than exactly and explicitly the way I want to under my own exclusive authority at all times.

      You must not be a frequent reader if you haven’t gotten than from me by now. The blog is the way it is precisely because I have made it so, and will strive to continue to do exactly as I am doing.

      Negative? That’s what what you think.

  49. Doing Raw Right on March 29, 2011 at 15:30

    I actually think raw/living vegan is a sister to the paleo diet. In fact, I will call raw vegan “vegan primal”.

    You eat meat and veggies, we eat veggies. Both of us eschew grains.

    The general mainstream vegan diet is heavily processed and denatured with many nutrients processed or cooked out of the food.

    Regarding social class and veganism. I know many genuinely poor vegans. They can’t even buy organic.

    Whether paleo, vegan or mainstream SAD (Standard American Diet), organic food is expensive.

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