The Roundup
In general, I think less supplementation ought to be the goal, in favor of eating the best quality diet of “Real Foods” you can. That said and with the precautionary principle in mind, I think there are a few that deserve consideration. For the most part, there is an evolutionary basis for these, i.e., possible deficiencies, the result of living in modern society. I’m skeptical of and generally reject the notion of so-called “superfoods” (ok, liver is one superfood), or that we really know what we’re doing with massive supplementation a-la “Life Extension” like models. They may be more right than wrong, but I don’t want to be a human guinea pig with very expensive pee — with so much uncertainty, variables, unknown synergies, and interactions.
The photo above constitutes the entirety of it for me. You have fish oils (krill, salmon and cod liver), fat soluble vitamins (A, D and K2), and minerals (magnesium, selenium and zinc). Some may consider this too much already, and some, not enough.
In terms of how I take them, the small pile you see is the extent of it. The D is encapsulated in a gel cap with 500mg cod liver oil. I alternate days taking either a 1 gram gelcap of salmon oil or 1 gram of cod liver oil. When the salmon is done, I’ll probably just stick with the CLO going forward. Then there’s 500mg of krill oil. Somewhere I read that less is more with krill, so that’s what I do. I have been taking LEF’s Super K Complex but just decided to go back and try Green Pastures’ “Activator X” butter oil for K2, 2, 500mg caps. I’ll take one of the K Complex per week until it’s gone. In terms of magnesium, one tablet is 140mg magnesium malate, and 830mg malic acid. The dose on the bottle says 1-3 tablets, so I take 1. Selenium and zinc is 50mg each.
So Why These?
Vitamin D:
- Impressive body of research showing both the ill consequences of deficiency and the benefits of higher levels (see GassrootsHealth and Vitamin D Council)
- The vast majority of people do not spend anywhere near as much time in sunshine as did your ancient ancestors
- Deficiency is implicated in a host of diseases, including cancer. (see my 17 search pages of past Vitamin D posts)
- Works in synergy with fat soluble vitamins A and K2, particularly with regard to mineral utilization (see Chris Masterjohn: Is Vitamin D Safe? Still Depends on Vitamins A and K!)
- Contraindications: dont overdo the supplementation (I take 4,000IU now; see Chris Masterjohn: Are Some People Pushing Their Vitamin D Levels Too High?) and try to get some actual sunlight, as natural is likely better.
Vitamin A in CLO: See bullet number 4, above.
Vitamin K2:
- See bullet number 4 under vitamin D
- K2 is a fat soluble vitamin that is synthesized from K1 in ruminants, but not well by humans, possibly because we eat ruminants. As Dr. Stephan Guyenet has said, “K2 is made by mammals, for mammals.” However, K2 is richest in the parts modern humans don’t eat much anymore: bone marrow & organ meats. It’s also most concentrated in other foods not consumed much, like fish eggs.
- It boasts some amazing properties in terms of mineral utilization: making them go everyplace they should (bones & teeth), and no place they shouldn’t (arteries); (see my 7 search pages of past Vitamin K2 posts)
- Vitamin K2 is Weston A Price’s “Activator X” (see Chris Masterjohn: On the Trail of the Elusive X-Factor: A Sixty-Two-Year-Old Mystery Finally Solved and Vitamin K2 Content of Selected Foods)
- K2 has been found to reverse arterial calcification in rats (see Dr. Stephan Guyenet: Can Vitamin K2 Reverse Arterial Calcification?)
Fish Oils:
- Fish oil contains various levels of essential omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA that purport many benefits (see Omega-3 Institute)
- Modern diets or those like mine that tend to favor meats could benefit with modest supplementation
- Ideal in my view is modest supplementation along with seafood in your meals at least once or twice per week, to include shellfish and things like raw oysters, mussels and clams
Magnesium:
- Soils are deficient in this most important of minerals
- Magnesium is an essential mineral in over 300 enzymatic reactions in metabolism (see search link for the importance of magnesium)
Selenium and Zinc: These two are implicated in general thyroid function and since I’m hypothyroid (without symptoms), I take these along with my Armour thyroid meds.
Alright. So there you have it. Let’s open it up for discussion in comments. What are you taking different, and why? Or, any other good reasons to take, not take, take more of, or take less of those listed above.
lydia 
Josh 
Keoni Galt 
Mountain 
Monte 
Matt Tagg 
Warning: Declaration of FV_TC_Walker_Comment_blank::walk($elements, $max_depth) should be compatible with Walker::walk($elements, $max_depth, ...$args) in /home/freethea/public_html/wp-content/plugins/thoughtful-comments/walkers.php on line 0
Warning: Declaration of FV_TC_Walker_Comment_blank::paged_walk($elements, $max_depth, $page_num, $per_page) should be compatible with Walker::paged_walk($elements, $max_depth, $page_num, $per_page, ...$args) in /home/freethea/public_html/wp-content/plugins/thoughtful-comments/walkers.php on line 0
I think this is a pretty good supplement regime! Considering you eat real food and aren’t bogged down with carbs, I am sure this is great for you!
I think it stinks, but we may need to supplement regardless, in this day and age we are up against so much and the toxicity in our environment is plaguing us even if we are eating a superior diet. (chemicals, emfs, stress, recovering from a lifetime of having processed foods etc….)
I would add to that list a whole foods vitamin c complex and vitamin b complex. I’d also considered reading up on aminos even if you think you eat enough protein. I’d also consider a probiotic if you are not consuming fermented foods. Also, maybe add mineral drops or a high quality sea salt like celtic.
I think magnesium is a must for everyone anymore and am learning that topically applied is often a better route, or an ionic form – more absorbably and more likely to get enough that way.
Anyway that’s my 2 cents – can’t wait to see what other say!
At the moment, I take cod liver oil with added D and E, 2.5 teaspoons mag cit and 1000mg Vit C as sodium ascorbate, but I don’t remember to take them everyday…I am going to start taking Bio Kult probiotic (just ordered it earlier today). I have constipation probably due to dysbiosis and have spent a while researching probiotics before making my choice. I am still skeptical that a probiotic will build gut flora but I’m going to give it a shot. Very interesting info re Vit K2. I eat all my fat as grass fed ruminant meat, bones and organs and grass fed butter so I imagine I get plenty.
I love Ikura, salmon roe sushi (my fav for 26 years). Also a very high source.
I have not found one person with the optimal K2 amount in my clinic upon direct testing……..paleo or not. I think it is really deficient in our diets with mag and selenium.
Mine was supposedly high on a lab exam a few months ago. It is not very common for it to be measured.
I don’t know the reason, but my guess is that it has something to do with my eating about one pound of aged raw milk cheese per week.
I began unsung Green Pastures butter oil back in 2008 after reading Masterjohn’s Activator X article and Stephan blogged about it andPrice’ NAPD.
Was already taking D and CLO and saw immediate results in smooth skin and smooth teeth and greatly diminished calculus buildup. And later, my fingernails got thicker, more like real tools. I later used the Thorne drops for a while, 1mg per day and then switcher over to LEFs K2 complex, with both -4 and -7 subforms. Now I’ve just got the butter oil again and I’ll see if there’s any difference. Of course, it has other stuff beyond just the K2.
I’m suspicious of supplementation solely because it is supposed to be good for you. If there is a nutrient deficiency, it will be apparent in the present, and if a supplement does some good, it will be apparent in the present. You can usually tell what water-soluble vitamins are doing in only a day or so, and you can feel the minerals and fat-soluble vitamins and fatty acids within a month if they are doing anything. If they are not doing anything, then either one is not deficient or the dose is too homeopathic. Only a few nutrients are actually synergistic in any noticeable way. For instance, I got a lot of side-effects from meaningful amounts of omega-3 fatty acids until I realized I needed to eat more raw egg yolks to supply the choline so that the omega-3 could actually be incorporated into phospholipids, and only then did I feel the pleasant mood effects and improved cognition.
This looks more or less like the stuff I take. At the moment I use:
in the morning:
25 mg amino acid- zinc chelate i combination with 60mg time released vitamin C (it comes in the mix, otherwise I might not take it)
150 mg magnesium carbonate
5 tabs of brewer’s yeast as my Vitamin B complex
in the evening:
multi vitamin complex (containing almost every vitamin and mineral I’ve ever heard of)
150 mg magnesium carbonate
5 tabs of brewer’s yeast as my Vitamin B complex
I also use BCAAs before and after workouts, as well as creatin and a protein powder. I know that these aren’t very “paleo” but they help me recover, which is important if you work out five to six times a week with several “double days”.
My supplements
1. Multivitamin one per day, Costco brand meant for physically active people
2.Vitamin D 6000 iu
3. Fish oil 3 grams per day
4. Whey protein (ON Gold Standard) enough for 80-100 grams protein per day
I go through several pounds of it per month
5. Creatine about 10g per day, NOW brand
6. pre-workout energy drink — I switch the brand up from time to time, most have so many ingredients that I couldn’t begin to list them all
I don’t take any supplements and as long as I feel great I’m not going to start taking any supplements. Maybe I would feel even better taking vitamins but I don’t really like taking pills even if it’s vitamins. I exercise regurarly, try to get as much sunshine as possible and I eat a LCLC (low-carb, low crap) diet, I get less exposed to chemicals because I don’t use soap and tootpaste so I think I’ll be alright without supplements.
Just out of curiosity, how often do you get sick?
I assume you are in Sweden with low sun levels.
The reason I ask is because I live in California and still have pretty low VitD (just got blood tests), and I think I get PLENTY of sun, and I still get sick a lot.
That means you likely have high cortisol levels causing pregnenolone steal syndrome
This is really similar to what I take. I also take CLO and Flax oil, which seems to help with some ear inflammation. I also take a sublingual B-12. There’s a family history of depression, so I want to make sure the ol’ brain is taken care of.
Here’s my supplemental regiment:
2-3 servings of liquid caffeine and polyphenols in the morning.
1 serving of tetrahydrocannabinol, ingested via water filtration of combustible exhaust
1 serving of nicotine from combustible exhaust, absorbed through the mucous membrane
2-3 serving of barley-malt distillate, aged in charred oak barrels
Combined with a real food diet, these supplements work just fine for me. YMMV
+1
Hey Richard, don’t you mostly eat grass-fed beef and avoid high n-6 foods altogether? I figured that would be sufficient for your 3:6 ratio without supplementation, but I may be wrong.
Beef is totally insignificant to the equation. Even if you eat grained meats, total quantity of PUFA is minuscule.
Some data here on this point, supporting Richard’s statement:
bit.ly/aOpGS8
See also the comments there. A lot of interesting stuff, including some issues regarding other types of meat.
Yep, Ned. Exactly why I never talk about grass fed vs grain fed in terms of 6/3. It’s simply irrelevant and there are plenty of valid reasons to go with grass fed including more variation in flavor and texture between breeds, producers, and environment. Plus the humane factor, sustainability, etc.
Great to hear from you again. We listened to your Jimmy Moore interview on the drive down to LA for AHS and I must say it was one of the most interesting I have heard in a while. Told lots of people at AHS to have a listen and also suggested to Brent and Aaron that you be invited to present at AHS12. Your input is always interesting and relevant.
Thanks Richard. I would have liked to attend AHS, speaker or not, but my travel schedule has been awful during most of the summer.
In fact, I mentioned this to Aaron a while ago when he mentioned the AHS. I am glad to know that AHS was such a great experience for all involved.
I am still catching up with what’s been happening online lately, apparently a lot, and a mountain of work at my full time job.
I take magnesium, zinc and selenium as you do. I have no need for vitamin D or fish oil as I spend a lot of time outdoors fishing – plenty of sun and plenty of fish (5 to 15 meals a week are fish). I also take kelp (for the iodine which helps thyroid function), spirulina and chlorella. I’ll probably add K2.
If you don’t eat the fish livers, you might want to add some A, via CLO.
Richard, I would think that eating the amount of meat that you do, zinc and selenium supplementation would be completely unnecessary. A pound of beef has 231% Zinc and 135% selenium RDA. Why the extra?
BTW, I have the exact same products and brands including the Green Pastures stuff. That FCLO was the strongest fish oil I’ve ever had. It puts all other fish oils to shame.
Monte, onh because of the thyroid in my individual case. They’re cheap supps, so just a bit of tinkering.
Just two points / questions:
1. Are you concerned at all about the possible rancidity / oxidation of capsuled fish oils? I originally supplemented more but now try to get fish oil just by eating more fish (although I still eat a D capsule that contains fish oil).
2. I don’t get the sense that you eat a lot of seaweed. Given the hypothyroidism, why no supplementation of iodine or more eating of sea vegetables?
I eat sushi often enough I get plenty of Nori. and sometimes I’ll put shredded on a salad. I also have Iordoral, but haven’t taken any in a while. I don’t thng thyroid prodbs are iodine.
In terms of oxidation of fish oils, zero fear.
>>> If there is a nutrient deficiency, it will be apparent in the present, and if a supplement does some good, it will be apparent in the present. <<<
This sort of thinking is wildly misguided. Nutritional deficiencies can go unnoticed for years and even decades, slowly accelerating the overall degradation at the cellular level.
But just as important, numerous supplements currently available are potent in the reduction of aging processes, such as inflammation and glucose damage (glycation), as well as numerous others.
My top 10 supplements: pterostilbene, resveratrol, D2, K2, CoQ10, magnesium, all B's, pomegranate extract, fish oil, and pyridoxamine.
These play a role in the significant reduction of systemic inflammation, glycation, lipid oxidation, and neurological degradation. Some of this can be handled via food, but not nearly to the extent that can be improved by good supplementation. For example, to get pharmacological doses of resveratrol, a person would need to drink 100 to 300 glasses of good quality red win. Per day! Yet, resveratrol is the most potent anti-cancer molecule yet known to humans, which is why GlaxoSmithKline paid over $700 BILLION for a company during research on resveratrol. (Note that pharmacological companies cannot make money selling resveratrol itself, they need to create a non-natural version of this molecule that still has the benefits, and can then be patented in order to make money. They yet to pull off this difficult feat. But who cares, we already have the real thing — I take 300mg per day.)
The other supplements I've listed are all equally potent in their own areas. And, I take over 25 other supplements a day. All super well researched and part of a smart regimen that will help me live much longer than average.
It seems improbable to me that my cells would be deteriorating and I would not notice anything. How is that supposed to work? I think if I were not paying attention to my current state, but rather focused on the great By-and-By with faith in a supplement regime that has no discernible current benefit, perhaps my cells could deteriorate unnoticed. But I would still have the problem that if something started to go wrong, I would have to figure out which of my 25 supplements might be causing it. Isn’t getting all the essential nutrients in the right quantities already complicated enough?
In fairness to Scott, who has been around these parts for long time and I suspected he might show up, you begin to die as soon as you’re born. Cellular degeneration is ongoing. I’ve been hearing lately, however, that if you make into the late 90s, cellular aging stops. I have to look more into this.
Scott, your top 10l lost has changed from a few years back. I could look up the comment, but care to explain?
Oops, I should have written D3 above, not D2.
Richard, I don’t think my list has changed much over the years. At least 6-7 are the same, I’m sure.
Also, cellular aging doesn’t stop in the 90’s. The accumulation of intra- and extra-cellular waste is always ongoing. Likewise, DNA and mtDNA damage never ceases. Glycation never stops. Tolemere length continues to shorten (leading to a point when cells stop renewing themselves and permanent die). And so on. Nothing stops. I’ve heard this before too, but I’m not sure where it came from.
I’ll dig up the old comment and compare. It seems there is a difference of about 3 supps.
As to aging stopping, I recently listened to a Jimmy Moore podcast interview with evolutionary biologist Michael Rose on a new book, “”Does Ageing Stop” or something like that. Here’s an article by him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2022192/Reach-90-body-stop-ageing–Stone-Age-diet.html
If aging stopped at 90, then people who reach 90 should have a significant chance to live for decades upon decades longer — merely by avoiding trauma deaths, like a car wreck.
Evidence shows that there’s no age hurdle that, once crossed, somehow means the aging process (primarily a process of accumulated damage and waste/gunk) comes to a halt or even a reduced rate. Again, people over 90 still die from the normal progression of aging — failing organs due to all the normal aging processes.
Sounds a bit dismissive, Scott. But given his library of work on the biology of aging, I certainly am not going to be so quick to do so.
amazon.com/Michael-R.-Rose/e/B001IR3D2G/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1313867405&sr=1-1
Not sure why this one doesn’t show up on that search, but here’s the one about the cessation of aging.
amazon.com/Does-Aging-Stop-Laurence-Mueller/dp/0199754225
“Does Aging Stop? reveals the most paradoxical finding of recent aging research: the cessation of demographic aging. The authors show that aging stops at the level of the individual organism, and explain why evolution allows this. The implications of this counter-intuitive conclusion are profound, and aging research now needs to accept three uncomfortable truths. First, aging is not a cumulative physiological process. Second, the fundamental theory that is required to explain, manipulate, and probe the phenomena of aging comes from evolutionary biology. Third, strong-inference experimental strategies for aging must be founded in evolutionary research, not cell or molecular biology.
“The result of fifteen years of research bringing together new applications of evolutionary theory, new models for demography, and massive experimentation, Does Aging Stop? advances an entirely new foundation for the scientific study of aging.”
Hs website:
55theses.org/
Jimmy Moore interview:
thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/4190/478-evolutionary-biologist-michael-rose-on-achieving-biologic…
I’ve read through Dr Rose’s website, and I’ve followed his work for several years — he’s been a hot topic in the longevity community. He addresses he thesis on the cessation of aging with Thesis #30, based on forces of natural selection plateauing. But, he’s thesis seems to ignore the basic principle of entropy. Cells must produce energy, and this process produces harmful byproducts that continue to degrade cellular processes. This is why, of the 100’s of thousands of people who’ve reach 90+ years of age, practically none live 20 years longer. If Rose is right, then the sample size is plenty large enough for there to be ample radical outliers, living 50-100 years longer.
Maybe Rose’s “forces of natural selection” stop being a factor in the 90’s, but entropy pulls us into the grave nonetheless.
Richard is right. Cellular degeneration is ongoing. You don’t notice it because it is slow. Damage accumulates in the cell’s DNA leading to decreased function and finally death(of the cell). Also aging cell’s stop dividing. All this leads to aging. Supplements can reduce the damage done to the cell’s DNA and extend life. As it is a slow process you wouldn’t notice dramatic benefits imminently. (and you wouldn’t notice negatives anyway, I.e not getting cancer is something that can have many causes(or absence of).)
But your right, it is difficult to know which vitamin is really helpful and which is not. Besides, vitamins cost a lot of money. I can barely pay the minimal supplementation I use now.
Well, my point is that the efficacy of anti-aging supplements for a particular individual is unknown. We can’t do experiments on our own longevity. We can, however, pay attention to the present. If I found myself seeking the uber-placebo, I would consider I was doing so to ameliorate anxiety, and anxiety is usually the brain complaining that carbohydrate metabolism is not right.
Well, not completely unknown. Let’s not pretend people are that different biologically. N=1 is nice, but let’s not go overboard and dismiss N=>1
Go to http://www.SENS.org to see the seven currently known causes of aging. Here’s a good summary:
sens.org/sens-research/research-themes
The recent book, Ending Aging, provides a more detailed summary.
Mitochondria health, glucose management, inflammation pathways, tissue stiffening, hormone maintenance, DNA damage — these are all partially improved through good supplementation. Diet plays a role too, but supplements can significantly improve over anything possible with a diet.
Richard, you don’t actually begin to die as soon as you’re born. Generally, signs of aging at the cellular level do not begin to appear in normal humans until after puberty, such as intra- and extra-cellular “junk” accumulation.
All of the supplements I take (about 50 pills daily, or about 35 different supplement types, for example I take 5 fish oil pills daily), address these key areas of aging, and are backed by legitimate science.
As an aside, I’ve invested significantly in funds (like the MPrize: that supports longevity research.
Paleo lifestyle and eating is merely a subset of what we can all do to improve our chances of living a long, healthy life. Perhaps the most significant single thing to embrace. But supplementation is far too important an area to also not embrace, if maximizing your health-span is a priority.
Scott:
Here’s that comment from about 2 1/2 years ago. Mostly the same, but some differences.
freetheanimal.com/2009/03/vitamin-supplements-part-four.html#comment-1792
Mostly agree.
Small correction: GSK paid $720m for Sirtris, not “over $700 billion”.
Furthermore “Recent studies from rivals Amgen and Pfizer have failed to reproduce the findings that resveratrol is an SIRT1 activator”
I think resveratrol is overhyped personally. Oh and GSK has abandoned it’s trials.
Living in the PNW, I have upped my vitamin D intake to 5,000 mg’s., and 6,000 mgs., alternating the dose every other day. A Costco multi vitamin, magnesium 400 mgs., and fish oil 2,000 mgs. rounds out the picture.
What I have noticed is that I feel more mentally, and emotionally balanced with vitamin D; no signs of depression, or anxiety which was the norm before going primal. Vitamin D seems to enhance what primal/paleo eating started, which is to say, life just seems easier.
What is your dosage of K2 and how did you decide on that?
Don’t really know because it’s not spelled out in the butter oil, probably because as a concentrated food, it varies. Dose it two 500mg caps. For the LEF predict, there’s 1mg mk4 and 100mgm mk7, plus some K1
How do you take the butter oil? I have some but find it almost impossible to just swallow by itself so sometimes I try to mix it in with mashed potatoes and regular butter but that also doesn’t taste the best. Any advice would be appreciated!
Read the post, man. It’s in capsules, like I wrote.
I take :
1) One multi vitamin. I think I have one of the best, but you really never know as the science on this is just very complex. It’s to cover all my bases in one easy way. I hope it is enough.
2) Two fish oil capsules.
3) Magnesium with taurine.
4) Whey protein. I find it hard to get enough protein without supplementing.
5) I’m thinking about supplementing D3 all year round. (now I do it only in the winter)
There are vitamin k dependent clotting factors I use to assess levels in LFT panels……..best non animal source of vit k2 is organic kale
i cant survive without
ZMA- i was out 2 weeks and i lost sleep/mental well being
other than that i occassionally pop krill, swig cod liver oil and vitamin D but only a couple times a week. i would take K if it was affordable.
i dont ever get sick. i even tested and exposed myself to all sorts of shit at work and its like impossible. when i eat a huge meal sometimes a digestive enzyme and usually 3 bottles of kombucha a week and i <3 sauerkraut
i use to be 100% anti supplement and i am still scared of pills but the ZMA was a godsend
I go on and off Cod Liver Oil. I’m out now and will be moving soon so for now my main source of omega 3s are sardines – I’m cheap. :)
I take a multi pretty regularly. I use the Mega Men from GNC and it seems to have a decent mix of vitamins and minerals (D3, A, K, Zinc, Selenium, etc). I also eat organ meats once a week, this week it was beef heart.
I take primal defense just as a precautionary measure to try and get the most out of the real food I eat. Mega Men multi doesn’t have much magnesium so I take a Carlson liquid magnesium supplement at night before going to bed.
As far as workouts go I stopped using whey and only take creatine and BCAAs. It seems to be working pretty well for my workouts.