I got an email from a reader last night that sparked an interest in me and I immediately decided to do a blog about it…the kind where hopefully readers with far more experience than I chime in.
My problem is with my kids. I handle the cravings pretty well, and the kids are compliant with my decision to eliminate grains, sugar and legumes…However, they are constantly hungry (or think they are). We are very fit and genetically thin and muscular. I am 41, 5’10 and 130 lbs. of cavewoman-style muscle, and a certified Yoga instructor. My kids, 11, 10 and 6 have started showing increased muscle definition—not from “leaning out” or losing what little fat they had to start with—but they are hungry! They are having increased athletic performance, and clothes are getting tighter in places like thighs, biceps and calves. For “skinny kids” they look absolutely ripped; and so do I, unlike most people in my rural area in “flyover country.”
This is not simply “craving” the junk they were accustomed to…they feel hungry (Paleo, three months now). Is it just a matter of time? We practice about an 80/20 diet, and I allow dairy in addition to meat, veggies, and fruit. What can I do to help them lessen the “hungry” feeling?
…It seems that many are paleo for the weight loss benefits, and we are because I wanted to avoid GMO foods; but we were already healthy and not “grain-dependent” so this is an unexpected complication.
In a subsequent exchange I asked her to clarify a few things.
They eat three meals per day; they only eat non-paleo at school and even then they avoid grain if they possibly can (They peel the breading off the corn-dogs, etc.). So I say 80/20 because I am not able to control all they eat. They eat snacks at home that are Paleoish (i.e., cheese sometimes). Very few “starchy vegies” like potatoes (sweet or white) or corn.
They EAT a lot at home. I have adjusted my schedule to cook breakfast for them and we eat well, and paleo compliant. They’re just hungry all the time now, but I am not even sure if they are only missing the sugar load/grain “rush.”
Thanks for your help, skinny people apparently react to the transition differently (?)
OK, here’s my thoughts, for what they’re worth, and then I hope commenters with real world experience can chime in with helpful thoughts and suggestions, keeping in mind that others might encounter this obstacle as well.
- First and foremost, hunger is a normal evolutionary adaptation to motivate us to source more food, because in the wild, nothing is certain. The problem arises when that survival adaptation is put into a context where we have unlimited supply, and we know it. In the wild, depending on the environment, it’s reasonable to assume that where food was relatively accessible, people might choose to tolerate the hunger longer because it’s not severe enough to motivate them to go out of their way—kinda like when you delay cooking a meal because it’s a chore that’s worse than your current level of hunger.
- Particularly in the last few decades, we’ve established as part of our culture the notion that if you’re hungry and don’t immediately feed, something’s wrong, or it’s unhealthy, bad for you, etc. Of course, this is the doing of the food conglomerates and their marketing and promotions. We have a food culture that conditions us to never go hungry and never go thirsty, so when you’re feeling hungry, go ahead and have that Snickers bar and sugar drink. You’ll be hungry again soon enough…
- Looking back to my own childhood in the 60s and 70s, I recall how different the food culture was. We had breakfast as a family every morning before anyone left for school or work, and 8-9 times out of 10 it was bacon, eggs, & toast (hash browns were for Sunday breakfast). Rarely did we have oatmeal or boxed cereal. My mom packed a lunch everyday—a sandwich with meat on it, fruit, and usually some carrot sticks or something. A bag of chips was a rare treat and I always envied the other kids who always had them. But what I remember the very most is coming home from school, playing outside (we lived in wide open spaces with huge fields and a river, not a suburban development) for a few hours, coming in an asking mom, “when is dinner; I’m hungry.” I can recall the hunger being almost unbearable at times, but having anything to eat was out of the question (“you’ll spoil your dinner”). Mom was always a great cook, so I always dug into dinner with gusto. In later years, I recall us being allowed one or two slices of toast with peanut butter in the afternoon. In retrospect, I wish we hadn’t been.
- Kid hunger is an entirely different animal. Hunger is based on metabolic demands for everyone (in the context of a healthy metabolism); but for kids, this is a moving target on an upward slope. “Eat your food so you can grow up big and strong” is only partially right and implies that it’s the food that causes growth. In fact, it’s growth hormone that causes growth and hunger and subsequent higher intakes of food is in response to that growth and bigger mass to feed. So, just as growth is not uniform across the life of a child (spurts), so we would expect spurts in severity of hunger and total food intake. Normal.
- Speculative, but I’ll mention it anyway. Could be that as they are growing and have huge and increasing demands for nutrients, the past eating of kid junk may have left them with some mild to moderate nutritional deficiencies (likely)…and now that they are providing those nutrients, the body is playing catch up (speculative). The three months on paleo may not have been enough time yet for everything to settle out
Alright, with the above thoughts in mind, here’s how I might construct some experimentation.
- If you can pack them a really hearty paleo lunch that they can have in leu of the cafeteria food, I’d do that as absolute step number one. Maybe include an indulgence once per week as motivation. Another motivation, if you have the means, is to sometimes give them plenty to share with friends (make it good). If the friends love it and envy them, they’re more likely to develop a healthy elitist attitude—because, of course, they are the elite. That they already demonstrate increased athletic performance at school ties the whole bow on the package.
- If milk is part of the dairy they consume, I’d eliminate that and replace it with meat, veggies, fruits, nuts (butter, cream and cheese should be fine). Just total wild-ass speculation, but because milk is designed for early growth, it’s conceivable that the milk protein insulin growth factors mess with a growing kid’s hormonal balance which could cause unnatural hunger.
- Involve them in preparation, cooking and cleanup as much as possible. Teach them to begin preparing their own simple dishes (see sweet potato, below). I learned to make simple 2-egg omelets as a kid (plain, or with cheese), I think by about age 9. This will have the effect of putting their hunger into a context: “Hungry means you have to work. Now, how hungry did you say you were?”
- paleo is NOT low carb, regardless of what you may have learned. paleo includes zero carb to very high carb, depending upon what’s available in any given environment. So, don’t be afraid of carbs and most particularly so, with kids whose metabolisms should be fine if they’re lean and have always been lean. So, get some white sweet potatoes, pierce & pop ’em in the nuker for 5 minutes or so, slit ’em open, spread butter on them and sprinkle with cinnamon. Eat with a spoon. For added delight, toast & caramelize them under the broiler after the butter and cinnamon are added. This could go with a meal, be dessert, or an afternoon snack.
- Cook plenty at dinner so that there’s more than they can possibly eat (and for really good meals, plenty for that lunch to share with friends). Remind them of the hunger they experience and suggest they really make it count. Then if they do get hungry later, let them partake in as much leftovers as they want. Have them get used to eating cold leftovers from the fridge or, make another plate and let it sit out for 30 minutes to get nearer room temperature. This also teaches delayed gratification and, don’t be surprised that if they do put the plate out and wait 30 minutes, their appetite might sometimes be gone in the interim and the plate goes back in the fridge (happens to me sometimes).
- Nothing ever to eat or snack on once dinner is done (this should be near absolute with everyone). This gets their bodies used to going 12 hours per day with nothing but water. I often remark that my intermittent fasting 1-2 times per week for 24-30 hours reset my hunger mechanism to a more normal one, but it’s just as likely that a more profound cause is that virtually every day I go about 12 hours minimum without any food or snack. Also, if they complain of hunger a few hours after dinner, before bedtime, have them take note of it and then take note of how hungry they are immediately upon waking. Sleep moderates hunger.
So to summarize, I’d first realize that hunger is normal, and particularly in the context of growing kids where hunger is in part a means of motivating the consumption of more food than they have been accustomed to eating, as they grow. Since they’re lean and ripped, they have well functioning metabolisms, and now have an opportunity to live their whole lives without ever messing them up. Point out to them all the people who have damaged themselves. You probably have family members like that, where you could show them pictures of what the person looked like in their youth.
So given that they have well functioning metabolisms, let them eat paleo as much as they want. Just not after dinner. Here’s the principle tradeoffs:
- You get to eat as much paleo as you want between breakfast and dinner, no limits. In return, nothing between dinner and breakfast.
- You get to eat paleo snacks between meals, but you have to do it yourself (leftovers, sweet potato, fruit, etc.) and you have to clean up any mess. (Allowing them such snacks has the added benefit of likely resulting in additional leftovers from dinner that can be used in lunches.)
- No more cafeteria food at school, but you get an indulgence once per week, and when I have leftovers from a great dinner, you can have enough to share with friends so they’ll envy you, and you can explain how this is why you’re so lean & muscular and do better in sports, etc.
Alright, anything else from anyone? Discussion? Experience?
Update: See the follow-up to this post, motivated by going’s on in the comment thread: Why ‘Low-Carb For Everyone’ Advocate Kevin Geary Got Himself Banned.
Michelle 
Mike d 
Bobbie 
Jesrad 
consuelo werner from healthyguts 
Kevin Geary 
Sounds exactly like my kids (6 and 7). They are hungry all the time. I cook breakfast for them, pack their lunches, and cook dinner every night. Our rule is they are allowed to snack as often as needed since they are not overweight and are very active little girls. We have a little counter next to our fridge loaded with bananas, apples, nuts, organges, etc. They are allowed to pick anything they want off the “snack” counter.
If you have ur kids on a true Paleo diet and they are hungry all the time, its a simple fix. YOU ARENT FEEDING THEM ENOUGH FAT.
Hungry? Let them eat!
When I was younger, I remember packing away tons of food to grow to my current 6’3″, especially when I started adding in sports like swimming and track. I think as long as the food is quality paleo-food (especially if lower in carbs), the hunger signal is indicating *true* caloric needs.
Another point is considering the relatively low caloric content of most ‘real’ foods compared to packaged junk. You have to eat a bunch of meat to equal the number of calories in some Doritos and a 20oz soda. So, in opposition to Richard’s recommendation, I’d keep tons of calorie-dense foods around, of which some of the best are dairy. Cheese cubes, cottage cheese, yoghourt, heavy cream + sweetener as a snack, etc.
I don’t oppose that at all. You forgot coconut milk.
I limited this to mostly pure paleo because that’s how the question came in. But I think experimenting with Paleoish is fine.
I think heavy cream is delicious straight up, without sweetener. Serve it cold, in shot glasses. :)
And yea, while I didn’t mention it, easy to ingest fats like heavy cream, coconut milk, butter on just about everything is an easier way to kick up the caloric density.
Yes, I’d agree: increase fat intake. Fattier meats. Full fat milk, as much as they’ll drink. Nothing comes even close to when I was a kid living in England. After school every day I’d drink one pint of milk from a glass bottle delivered by the milkman. I’d make sure I drank the cream on the top first of all. Delicious. In one year my height increased from 5 foot 2 to 5 foot 9. (good thing it stopped there.)
When I have a craving for ‘junkfood’ I eat Turkish figs. Loads of calories but they do hit the spot.
How about taking cold boiled potatoes out of the fridge and frying them in duckfat? Our family favourite. Filling? Oh yeah.
I don’t think you are fit to give advise or let alone write about what’s good for kids to eat.
“I don’t think you are fit to give advise or let alone write about what’s good for kids to eat.”
And I should care what you think, why?
this is not an advice column. It is a free exchange of ideas among equals. I understand that for some people that is a foreign concept.
And if someone decides to take an exchange amongst individuals as advice?
my point was that the poster above who said you are not qualified or ‘fit’ has a false perception of this forum. If someone decides to take an exchange among equals as ‘advice’ that is their right and responsibility. I take much of the information in these exchanges as ‘advice’ – and find some of it valuable, some of it not, I’m a free adult human being who is tasked with discerning my truth among competing ideas.
Richard made a very good point that paleo is not necessarily low carb.
To support the need of children for carbs I would point to the fact that mothers milk is very high in sugars, more so than the milk of other animals. This is because the growing brain needs it. This requirement reduces a lot after the first few years, but still the need is there.
So think about the carb content of the diet.
The human milk is also the lowest in protein, only at 7%, although the child is growing very fast at that age. Basically when the child is growing and expending lots and lots of energy, the protein part becomes much less important. So try to add a lot more fat than you yourself would eat.
We had this problem, until we started incorporating more fat and other nutrient dense foods. Yes, kids need carbs too – they’re much more active than me at my desk all day, so they get more fruit and dense carbs than I eat.
My 6yo’s typical foods include: meat, eggs & veggies for breakfast with a 4oz coconut milk smoothie or kombucha. Maybe berries instead. Then he has lunch at school, leftover dinner or tuna/canned salmon salad lettuce boats, applesauce, nuts, black olives or half an avocado for extra fat. He has a snack, usually homemade beef jerky or a “stick” from US Wellness Meats (their FAVORITE). After school he’ll get himself a snack, usually a fruit and a protein/fat, like hardboiled eggs with a fresh plum. Or more jerky and dried fruit. For dinner, they have an adult sized dinner. I mean, 3 kid bowls of spaghetti squash pasta – 2 or 3 hamburger patties with brussel sprouts and salad. They CHOW down because they’re hungry from having been outside for a few hours. If after that they still want food, fresh berries with coconut milk or one of our “treat” recipes does the trick and gives extra protein/carbs/fat before bed. They sleep through the night and wake up begging for their pre-breakfast banana!
Often if you’re hungry you’re nutrient starved or thirsty. Just try to incorporate more nutrient dense foods (we make jerky out of beef heart), add liver to ground meat and offer them water ALL the time. I’ve found this really helps. And cutting down on sugars (like pastured dairy and dried fruit) gives them room for more satiating foods, like hard boiled eggs.
Good luck!
Stacy
PaleoParents.com
*pasteurized dairy is the problem.. pastured dairy is essential :)
More fat.. I don’t think people understand how to eat fat when they go “low carb”
yep — my first reaction was “more protein!” … and maybe some potatoes. given their build, i don’t think there’s a danger of more starch being fattening!
but i REALLY LOVED the idea of making them responsible for snack preparation and cleanup — as Richard said, i think that will help separate the hungry from the snackish.
I agree with you, tess and RN about the snacking – if my kids cry “hungry” between meals, they know what’s available and that they can help themselves. This isn’t a short-order cave.
Culprits other than school “food” that we’ve eliminated are screen time of all varieties (except occasionally weekends) and weather dependent outdoor time. If it’s daylight, they go out, rain or shine, hot or cold. Our weather is rarely extreme, except for the heat, and that’s why there are sprinklers and squirt guns. As for the screen time, I can count on quadruple the mommy-I’m-hungry complaints if they’re watching or playing something on an electronic device. Uh, no – go get muddy.
I agree with everything here, but I want to throw my experience in.
I was thoroughly Primal for 9 months before attempting a Whole30. So the only things missing that month were cheese, butter, alcohol, and sugars. And I had days where I experienced an uncomfortable level of hunger for the first time since going Paleo. I did my best to go for fats even more than before, but I found myself snacking more than I had in the past nine months. I still can’t quite wrap my head around why that would be the case.
So at least in my experience, this is not out of the realm of possibility. I find that kids who aren’t eating constant junk are pretty in touch with their hunger cues, so if they say they’re starving, I’d believe it. Go for the fat.
That’s funny, I’m reminded of back when my wife was 20, she would eat in a single day: several pastries, a roasted chicken (yes, you read that right), cheese (the wheel, yup), and add yet some more aside. On one occasion she had 26 pancakes. And none of it would go to storage, back then. I was no stranger to that kind of appetite either, I remember well eating a pound of meat at lunch or dinner, many times. So to me the association between youth and huge appetite is pretty established.
Not to quibble, but I am 37 and easily put away a chicken or 24 oz steak, 3×9 oz burger patties, etc.
I agree with with what you have written. I think the biggest problem is probably the food they are eating at school. If they can bring a lunch with meat, veggies, some good fat and a little fruit they will feel much more full.
Right now our son wants to snack, but I think its because he is bored. The weather has been nasty and we are all getting cabin fever. Also, we are trying to get him to eat what we eat and nothing specially made for him. This is a battle. So sometimes he won’t eat lunch or maybe dinner. So of course he wants to snack. We try to stick to our guns and say that he can’t have a snack because he didn’t finish his meal. The next meal he will usually devour whatever is in front of him. This is really tough, but I feel like its working.
She doesn’t seem to be having this problem. So I will be a broken record. More fat and meat!
Kyle:
Sounds like you are on the right track. See the last few paragraphs here:
https://freetheanimal.com/2012/02/if-you-want-the-brats-to-sit-down-shut-up-and-eat-then-get-paleo-pals.html
I came by to give a comment, but Stacy/Matt said everything I would have! For me, I do notice increasing fat keeps me from feeling ‘snacky’, but kids are a whole different story. Their little bodies and minds need nourishment!
When my kids were growing up, I didn’t know anything about Paleo or Low carb or any of that. (I knew low fat, but luckily didn’t force it on my kids too much.) But one thing I did know was that if you allow kids free reign, but keep the options healthy, they will satisfy their nutritional needs–and develop a taste for a wide variety of good foods. My grown up kids are both excellent cooks who eat a huge variety of (mostly) healthy foods. One is Paleo (by necessity–he’s type 1) and the other is, well, not as Paleo as I’d like, but at least she doesn’t eat a lot of junk. A hungry kid is a kid who needs to eat–just make food that packs a nutritional and caloric punch, not junk, available. Foods high in good fats, protein and good carbs are the best options–all suggested by Richard and all of you above. I like the sweet potato idea! Way tastier than store bought white potato chips. If the kid is old enough and you have a deep fryer, I would even consider letting him/her make his/her own sweet potato chips fried in coconut oil for a lovely after school snack–with perhaps some cheese or other protein. Smoothies made with cream, coconut milk or cream and yogurt are also filling and nutritious with a little fruit to sweeten–easy enough for a kid to make themselves, or at least help. What they eat in school is the most difficult to control, but packing a lunch that will satisfy them (and their friends) so they don’t eat the junk provided by schools is of course the best idea. I would let them pack their own lunches as soon as they are old enough–from foods that you the parent approve and have available. Then they take ownership of it. My kids were packing their own lunches by the time they were in second or third grade–and helping to cook family meals, too–maybe not that young, but only a few years older. Oh, but if I’d only known then what I know now!
Fat is key to feeling sated. In my experience, eat a lot of lean meat and you feel … full, even uncomfortably so. But without sufficient fat, you will not feel _sated_. Suggestions:
1. Fattier cuts of meat at lunch and dinner.
2. Generous use of coconut oil, butter, ghee when cooking vegetables.
3. High fat dairy: fermented cream (creme fraiche) is better than yogurt for this purpose; add in some berries and you have, for my money, one of the most delicious and satisfying breakfasts / desserts / snacks around.
4. High fat (faux) “sweets”: coconut macarons, dark chocolate.
I must agree. There are times when if I eat a bunch of fatty pork chops, maybe even with a fatty sauce made from chicken stock, I feel downright euphoric afterward. But you can’t trim the fat.
Assuming they are eating enough protein and getting a fair amount of fat I’d up the starches. They are cheap and nutritious and just fine for lean individuals like they are. And lots of whole milk if they tolerate dairy. A tall glass with dinner takes out a chunk of hunger for pennies.
I feed my son 3 squares with a protein, a starch, and typically a fruit or vegetable with a glass of milk. But he hasn’t reached teenage vacuum status yet. Easily the most well behaved child in his classroom, which is full of vegetarian hippies.
I had to think back in the 50’s and 60’s when I and my 4 siblings were at home on the farm. We had farm fresh everything–meat, eggs, veggies–but I hated the unpasteurized milk–the globs of butter fat made me gag and I would try to hide it–imagine my mothers surprise to find a small glass of milk behind the telephone or on the bookshelf once in a while. One HOT summer morning my grandpa brought so many bushel baskets of green beans into the kitchen for my mom to can , that when he left to go home for lunch, she marched that last straw bushel of beans out to the outhouse and dumped it in. She was passive aggressive that way. I was a Pepsi hound and knew where Dad hid the stuff–would try to sneak a bottle up to my room when I could. We had to split a 12 oz bottle (not 16 oz then) 4 (four) ways–so all of us became expert mathematicians to make sure no one got more and if we spilled, god help us, we were slurping it off the table. Back then there wasn’t much junk food around except the pop (rationed out) and potato chips–(should have been). I had to give up potato chips cold turkey in 2003 as I have no control over myself–too many wonderful local greasy brands around here. Don’t get me started . . . . . . Those kids above are very blessed that their parents are being such a good example. Sorry for gabbing on. Eating all this good Paleo-ish food has unleashed fond memories of food relationships past. Can you believe this? When I got married at 18, I couldn’t wait to buy cans of corn and frozen breaded fish stuff and TV dinners and other processed food, that seemed so easy to make. Sheeeesh.
I agree with giving them more starches. I never felt completely satisfied on paleo (even with shit tons of fat) until I added sweet potatoes up in the mix
I have a 1.5 yr old who is hungry from the time she gets up after nap until after a favorite dinner (if it wasn’t a favorite dinner then she is usually needing a dessert of fruit). I found that when I cut out her allergen foods (most of the foods people who go Primal cut out anyway) she was hungrier and could eat a meal that was the size of my plate! So, because we are pre-planning a Whole30 for her and I, we are going to fill her drawer up with lots of Paleo snack foods like fruits, roasted veggies (the only way she eats them right now unless they are blended into other foods-she only has 7 teeth), and jerky.
I don’t think the hunger is a bad thing so long as you ensure that they are getting as nutrient dense and calorically dense foods as possible into them when they are hungry. I’d also say that including them with the prep and clean up helps. My toddler will scream at me until food is ready if she isn’t involved int he prep but if she is involved with the prep then she understands why it takes so long.
I would also say that strachier vegetables are okay for growing bodies imo. Only because they are trying to grow and need more calories, whereas an adult may be looking to lose or maintain weight and doesn’t need the extra calories. I don’t have anything to support this opinion but it’s the way I feed my toddler. She gets more sweet potatoes whereas I limit myself.
I had the same response as a lot of the commenters–more fat! Especiall grass-fed tallow. Its omega 3-6 balance is superior (less than 10% omega 6), and it’s CHEAP.
If the kids are adventurous eaters (I was as a kid, and still am, and sounds like you & your kids are too), you can try sauteeing dark leafy greens like collards, shard, & kale in grass-fed butter and/or tallow, with a hit of salt. It’s a nutrient-dense crowd pleaser. I use it as a bed for my eggs & sometimes bacon in the AM.
Certainly, a big load of fat & protein in the morning will help.
To reiterate both Richard’s comments and the others–let them eat, but also teach them it’s OK to be hungry for a few hours. Brief “intermittent fasts” of a few hours followed by a nutrient-dense paleo meal are awesome for satisfying hunger as well as learning to deal with it emotionally.
As a young parent I went to a seminar that helped me understand life as our kids see it. The presenter sat a volunteer down at a tall table and gave her a serving bowl full of food and a quart jar full of beverage and kept urging her to finish her “meal” and not set her beverage so close to the edge of the table but to always put it down on the far side of her bowl. Kids have different sized bodies than adults do. The amount they can eat at one sitting is different than an adult’s amount. Kids may NEED snacks. High fat ones to help them get enough calories to support their active lives. Have you followed your kids around for a day lately? Trying to do so both wore me out and made me hungry.
number one: Richard, this is a question I often get asked as well. number two: you are right. And number three: I’d say you go do your homework and start on with the Nikoley clan!!
As you know I have 4 children and I have noticed throughout the years that high fat/protein meals in the morning are very effective and the key to maintain hunger levels to a minimum. For example I feed my kids 2 to 3 sausages, 1 to 2 over easy eggs and a big fat scoop of sweet potatoes with trimmed bacon and grass fed butter for breakfast. might sound like too much food but they eat it without complains. I usually like to give them if the ocassion arises a piece of fruit no later than 2 o’clock (because of the sugar might increase hunger or cravings) when lunch time comes around they usually eat only a snack because they are full and satisfied . Lunch=Let’s say fried bacon and berries.
Dinner time again, high protein, high fat, lots of vegetables, some starch, no fruit. As long as you keep the meals high in fat and protein, they should be golden. Avoiding foods that contain or have sugar or some sort of craving trigger is a good rule of thumb. It even works with breastfed babies. Sleep patterns are better and longer too = makes them grow! (sleep is crucial to avoid cravings) and if after all the mentioned suggestions is not working and they are all going through a growing phase, I say, let them eat more at dinner time or pack them more food for lunch. This might also reduce the number of meals they eat a day (which in my childrens case is only 2) but then I was raised in a family where 2 big meals or sometimes one where enough. We didn’t eat for pleasure.
Hope this helps.
Bravo for #4 (‘Paleo is NOT low carb’). Just don’t tell the Livin La Vida Low Cred gang…
I maybe should have phrased it “Paleo is NOT NECESSARILY low carb.”
Can be if it works for you better and potentially must be if you have a broken metabolism. But it’s not necessary for some and most likely, most.
The weight of the evidence says that Paleo IS low carb, imo.
If you tally the “more fat” to “more starch” entries, Paleo is clearly a low carb diet in an Ancestral Health wrapper.
/not opining on what the parent should feed his/her kids
//I wasn’t born yesterday, the only appropriate response to child raising issues is “You’re doing a wonderful job, your kids are absolute jewels and a blessing to humanity, and please keep doing what you are doing, on behalf of the entire planet and on behalf of generations to come, from the bottom of of my heart I praise you to the heavens”
“The weight of the evidence says that Paleo IS low carb, imo.”
Except for those who aren’t.
To put it in the simplest and most direct terms as I can think of right now: “I eat a lot of sweet potatoes, and some meat, fish, fowl.”
Not Paleo?
Surely, you are because of the type of carbohydrates you consume. But that doesn’t mean the additional carbohydrates you eat have any benefit to your health or your “paleo” status. Perhaps that’s what he meant. If Paleo is describing paleolithic hunter-gathers, your argument for “high carb paleo” isn’t due much merit because it simply isn’t a good description for paleolithic hunter-gatherers nor is it a good description of how the body is designed to function.
When you say paleo is low-carb, how many grams of carbs are you talking about?
And which particular types of carbs (if any) do you shun?
I don’t think that really helps to convo but 50-70 grams is probably suitable for the majority of people. Many can do well on less than 50. Some do fine on 10. I don’t really like to “define” it by numbers.
Modern day HGs (e.g.,Kitavans) eat a ton more carbohydrates than 50 grams per day as do some Neolithics who would consider themselves Paleo (such as Richard and myself). Trying to make a one size fits all via macro numbers/ratios is a recipe for disaster. By the same logic, should we also prescribe how many grams of protein or fat one must eat per day to be deemed “Paleo”? I think not. As many more wise folks have said before, context matters, and if 50 grams per day works in your personal context, then great, but I wouldn’t assume that is a hard and fast absolute that will work for all.
Were you replying to him or me?
Just adding to the thread, but more directed at you given that Richard does not have a problem with healthy carbs and you seem to be focused on VLC.
Because I never said 50. I said 50 to 70 is probably enough for most people. I never said that some people can’t consume more and I never said 50 to 70 was optimal. You’ve effectively put words in my mouth if that’s the case.
Well I stand corrected. Nonetheless you did say 50-70 for the majority of people, which I would argue is on the low side unless you have some particular goals or health concerns.
I said 50 to 70 is “enough.” Everyone has different goals and levels of activity. But for basic activity and day to day function of the body and brain, I don’t think you can argue that 50 to 70 won’t get the job done.
I think the low carb thing is something that has a very different meaning on this side of the atlantic, it;s a relaitve term anyhow. Low compared to the USDA’s 11 grain servings a day?
Anyhow I am not only slim but also in good health and truly, honestly don’t have any problems or agendas around carbs. The actual Paleolithic diet as far as can be told was lower in carbohydrates than the neolithic diets that came later. This can be told by the material culture, tooth isotopes and prevelance of dental caries. Ice age Europeans were particularly meaty. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t eat carbs, it doesn’t mean it’s optimal to avoid them or that they weren;t hungry all the time. It just means that they didn;t eat as many carbs as later populations especially in the north.
I get tired of writing this but the kitavans ARE NOT hunter gatherers, which does not invalidate following a kitavan style diet but it bugs me when people say they are.
I am writing this eating a sweet potato with kerrygold
I noted the Kitavans as an example of folks with significant carbs in their diet; I should not have listed them as HGs.
The problem is almost assuredly a lack of fat as some have mentioned. Fat is the number one macronutrient that triggers satiety. Low-fat = hunger. You don’t need to add carbohydrates in if they are ravenous for food; it’s probably not going to help much. Focus on fat and protein.