scratch-mark

Teenage Rape: Parent’s Fault

You don’t have to look much far beyond the Steubenville rape….debacle, kid bullshit…or whatever it really was…to get a clue as to how very toxic our society has become on so many levels. Kids do shit. Why?

This simply does not scale to CNN, or anything like it (I just learned of the whole deal today, for the very first time). This is something best left to small societies and whatever norms they come up with and teach children. Then, you can simply condemn it if you don’t like what they come up with.

You know what I think? I think that the propensity over the last couple of decades to try children in court as adults, for adult crimes, is the very most telling thing you can come up with to illustrate our social depravity: that adults are in general lazy, pleasure-seeking fuctards from top to bottom, now, willing to sacrifice children to their ideological proclivities. In this case, however, sanity prevailed and they were tried as kids. But then look at the uproar over the “light sentences.” I guess we’re just becoming more vegetarian dietarily, offset by being more cannibalistic socially, over time.

….Or, maybe it’s just the modern equivalent of sending off the youngest men with the most potential, to war, to die for an “ideal” they never had a chance to realize in their 20 year life. Military grave sites are repleat. Well, they got “tough life sentences” now, didn’t they? And it must be said that even if they “chose” that, they were just kids.

Isn’t it funny? The kid isn’t competent to have a drink, smoke a joint, screw his girlfriend. But wants to go off to war and die for your pathetic ass? By all means. Hero.

At least they got a flag on their coffin.

Tagged: “disgusted with ‘adults'”

Update: A comment posted elsewhere on a post that took exception to this one.

Well I probably ought to just go about my merry way—having a certain “pearls before swine” feeling, here (Sean excepted)—and just in case anyone’s wondering? Nope. I fully stand by every word of that post and am proud of the fact that I never, ever fall victim to groupthink no matter the subject (as Sean Abbott never does, either). Ever. Not afraid to outline exactly what I think and the number of people wringing and waving hands is always irrelevant and truth be told, it’s when the vast majority are shrieking that I tend to suspect I’m right more than ever and they’re just regurgitating what they were taught they were supposed to think in our enlightened, sensitive, feminist, pussified culture. That said, yea, at least one of the commenters is over the top in my view. OMG! That never happens on MY blog.

And, I’m sure that because of it, a lot of males are now going to go out and rape a female because of it. So sorry.

Anyhooo, nice exercise in binary thinking. Yep, it’s all the rage now. Here we have this marvelous capacity to integrate, make distinctions, differentiate the truly evil from the very very bad, judge someone—especially a young person(s)—as caught up in circumstance not of a premeditated making vs. premeditated sociopathy / psychopathy, and we throw it all away in order to act like drones and bots executing Teh Programations so that everyone thinks we’re nice, good little automatons.

No thank you very much.

1. This sort of thing absolutely is a direct result of awful parenting, which started being awful about 16 years ago. Unless, you think that having your 16 year olds out drinking and partying without adult supervision is a sign that parenting was probably irrelevant here.

2. Nowhere did I suggest or imply that these guys ought be excused or not face some sort of reprisal for their actions.

3. I wonder who took the pic? How many others were standing around cheering things on?

In other words, nothing different to see here. Irredeemable at 16. No difference, that, from some 35-year-old mother’s basement dweller who lies in wait individually, sober, in the bushes to brutally beat and rape a lone sober woman walking home in the dark. Nope. Lock ’em up and toss away the key. What catharsis! …Because, after all, it wasn’t just a 16-yr-old girl/victim out drinking and partying and that got involuntarily finger fucked, American conscience got it right up the ass! Society needs a collective moment of healing, no matter the cost. One for all and all for one! We have been unjustified by this gross injustice!

I happen to agree with and salute the judge’s obviously unpopular exercise of judicial restraint, not bending to the obvious frenzy of a lynch mob. Good for him.

And incidentally, the actual act would have counted as sexual assault in the UK (according to two news reports—haven’t looked it up). Guess what else? We have 50 states and all such laws are independently decided by the states. So, Wooo, how about do a post about them awful Brits who don’t know a rape when they see one?

This is exactly why the English common law, incidentally, is the Enlightenment gold standard in matters such as these. It’s law made over time in courts, circumstance by circumstance, employing a lost art: thinking, making distinctions, exercising objectivity, avoiding prejudice, bias, crowd hysteria—as an exercise of deliberate judicial virtue and jurisprudence. Y’know, tawdry shit like that.

So, ok, feel free to get back to the groupthink catharsis.

A few other things.

  1. From now on when shit like this goes down with kids and children involved, how about we try the parents as adults and the kids & children as kids & children?
  2. I have zero sympathy for whatever repercussions are going to befall these guys in their lives to come, once out of detention. So if anyone thought I’m down with those reports calling it a shame on grounds such as various lost opportunities—boohoo—think again. It’s a shame, but just because it’s a shame all around. Adults should have been doing their jobs.
  3. Had the girl’s father, brothers, uncles etc. (y’know, people for whom this is their business) hunted those guys down and given them proper beatings within an inch of their lives I’d not have lifted a finger to intervene. Because….it’s none of my business either way.
  4. If you want someone punished, imprisoned, stolen from or killed, then do it yourself! That’ll probably guarantee than when you do, it’ll actually be your business. This one isn’t your business.

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More

96 Comments

  1. neal matheson on March 19, 2013 at 04:25

    hey realgmer I hope you get stomped into a fucking coma you cunt
    Cunt
    Cunt

  2. Dan Linehan on March 18, 2013 at 14:36

    Would you prefer to jail their parents?

    • Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 14:58

      “Would you prefer to jail their parents?”

      I’d call that a false dichotomy, and one of your own making.

      See, first of all, it’s none of my business, nor is it any of yours or most other people’s. It’s the business of the _children_ involved, who would have been adults in the 17th century, but that’s a subject for a different time. And their parents, perhaps small family and community.

      You tell me, Dan. Who, exactly, should be jailed, here? You’re all into this one for all and all for one social schtick near as I can tell, so near as I can tell, jailing _you_ is about as good as any other. Seems to me that society just wants its pound of cathartic flesh, so why not yours?



    • Dan Linehan on March 18, 2013 at 15:04

      I think it went down just fine. With a more primitive legal system, the parents of the daughter might have beaten or killed the rapists, probably without the benefit of a trial. I’d prefer the current outcome.



    • Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 16:02

      “I’d prefer the current outcome.”

      Cool, even though it’s not even remotely any of your business.



    • noah on March 18, 2013 at 16:31

      or married her to him. depends on the culture doesnt it.



  3. A.B. Dada on March 18, 2013 at 15:01

    Like most other news, it’s easy to ignore and possibly your responsibility to ignore it completely, unless the following is true: You know any of the people directly involved.

    News only matters to me if it’s something that directly affects me and my life. When it comes to “health” or “diet” news, I’ll read about it, research conflicting opinions, maybe do an n=1 self study, and voice an opinion.

    On this type of news, I just close the tab and move on. There are at least 2 sides to every story, and I sure as hell am not going to trust the media, the cops, the lawyers, the judge or the jury — all these parties have been found guilty of bias in the past.

    The entire “rape culture” phrase goes to show that this type of news has too much political bias to even warrant my comment here, let alone reading more about the situation.

    • Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 15:14

      ABD:

      Do you see how your comment is in-line with my response to Dan?

      Been saying it forever: IT’S NONE OF MY BUSINESS!

      That is: nearly every single murder I’ve ever heard about has been none of my business (and no rape ever has been). Only one murder has, in 2006, national news:

      https://freetheanimal.com/2006/06/darren_mack.html



    • Dan Linehan on March 18, 2013 at 15:23

      Wait, are you taking issue with the media coverage in this post then?

      The media just gives bored people the gossip they want. It’s free market economics at its worst.

      Stories like this aren’t going to remain local as long as we have global communications networks, too many people are titillated by crime stories. Hell, you even posted on it, and here I am responding.



    • Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 16:15

      “Wait, are you taking issue with the media coverage in this post then?”

      No. Facts of the case as I understand it—from media sources, obviously. I just looked at a couple of print things and a couple of editorials criticizing the media coverage.

      “The media just gives bored people the gossip they want. It’s free market economics at its worst.”

      Yea, pretty much. The difference between Springer and CNN/MSNBC/FOX is far less than people imagine. It’s simply in the presentation. Broadcast news big three is for old farts who never had an original idea anyway; and that they’re almost dead is, well, life.

      “Stories like this aren’t going to remain local”

      True enough and point taken as to my international blog. But I have a niche. Smart people. Usually.



  4. Mike on March 18, 2013 at 15:26

    Who at 17 knows bettter? Seriously pussy is a powerful drug

  5. Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 15:38

    “However, these dudes should have known better perhaps.”

    How? See the post title.

    “Is it not enough that you and your buddy get the tag the shit out of a teenage whore, but you have to take pics and discuss it via text? Bad form.”

    Bad form? That’s all? Really?

    “If it wasn’t for them being idiots about it they would have completed their mission successfully. Know your surroundings, the environment, have a plan. They didn’t, so now it’s a hard lesson learned.”

    Well I don’t presume to know what their mission—or her’s—was over the unfolding of drinking and partying and everyone hooking up with their dream screw, which probably applied to everyone—that’s the whole reason for such parties.

    The thing is, civilized adult people used to know how to behave, by and large. These children did not, on many levels. Who’s fault? You know, I can remember very well back in the college days and co-ed dorm parties and at points in the drunkeness and parties, the girls would come over, give you a peck on the cheek, say “how about we all get together tomorrow afternoon?” or whatever the hell they said.

    They had been trained by wise women to help us guys, and themselves, from things going out of control—even though I was never a risk no matter how much I drank. I didn’t know it then but I’m certain of it now. That’s not to say it’s their responsibility. On the other hand, what sense does it make to play with fire and then complain about getting burned? Sure, make your moral case that no matter what, nothing justifies a rape. I agree. I never would and the fact is, the vast majority of us misogynists would not either (I think far too much of myself to ever do that).

    No matter which way I look at this, something has been lost along the way in terms of basic, sane parental guidance and/or, the advent of the social media tweet, text, FB thing has simply overwhelmed the ability of anyone to keep up in a family setting where the average is just not yet keeping up with everything new and possible.

  6. Joshua on March 18, 2013 at 15:52

    Tried as juveniles, but they will be registered sex offenders for the rest of their lives.

    • Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 16:07

      “but they will be registered sex offenders for the rest of their lives” One quick story I read suggested that’s up to the judge’s discretion (to what extent) once they complete their detention.

      Quick anecdote.

      In the loft complex we lived at downtown San Jose from 2005-20010, 64 units, basically everyone was at least acquainted with most everyone. Must have been a couple of years in, everyone has a flyer paster to their door with a picture of a guy who lives in the complex. He’s on the sex offender registry. But, he’s a super nice guy, lovely sweet wife, brand new first baby.

      Yep, he was a teenager, like 18 or 19, thereabouts and happened to have sex consensually with a girl who was less than a magical age.

      This is the result of the zero-tolerance, zero thinking, zero context society we live in.



  7. noah on March 18, 2013 at 16:18

    Charles GrassCow-

    No, actually youre the dumb fuck. Why did her parents allow that she drank her brains out together with boys at an age where their brain is entirely fucked up by hormones. Kids that age should be forced to wear a hat that said “closed for reconstruction”. What irresponsible dad now sits and darts anger at 2 lads who took it too far but alas. behaved like young lads, when he is the asshole who abandoned his responsibility for his daughter.

    There is only one thing I loathe more than a feminist. That is a male feminst or someone who had their nuts and mind removed by its propaganda that told women and girls that they do not have to take responsibility for their own actions anymore. Well…it didnt change the world just because they changed, did it? did it? Now fuck off you useless waste of space and air. I take comfort in knowing that you will die at some point and for the first time in your miserable existence, you will be useful to the world around you. Fucking pathetic cunt.

  8. noah on March 18, 2013 at 16:32

    Grasscow. Thats real original. Spoken like a true feminist. Not an original thought inside there.

    NO U CHARLES. U!!!

  9. Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 16:32

    Quick note to everyone ’cause I just did it.

    I have grown weary of nesting in comments, how many levels is optimal, etc. I’m going back to the old days. Comments stack up chronologically. Make sure you reference what you’re replying to.

  10. Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 17:02

    RealGMer:

    Double standard.

    Guy goes into the wrong part of town at the wrong time. Gets mugged or worse. “You dumb shit, what were you doing there?”

    Woman, same situation, gets raped or worse. “Those animals.”

  11. VW on March 18, 2013 at 17:12

    Lots of very weird anger in this comments section. Bye y’all.

  12. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 18:38

    I’m blown away by some of these pro-rape commenters. Holy shit. Discusting.
    Blaming ONLY the victim for getting raped? All parties involved have some ammount of blame here, but no ammount of beer, hormones or group think makes raping any one acceptable behavior.

  13. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 18:42

    @Richard

    Double standard?

    Do not both parties (the victim and the victimizer) bear a certain percentage of the responsibility?

    I’m not really sure where all of this: blaming the victim shit is coming from. Enlighten me.

  14. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 19:09

    Realgmer, you are correct. I am a fucken weasel. Thank you for putting me in my place here on the Internet.

  15. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 19:20

    Realgmer says:
    If you don’t want your ripe pussy destroyed against your will (just turned myself on), don’t hang around a bunch of older horny dudes who are drunk and looking to fuck. She got drunk, she chose to be there, she wanted to be there.

    I agree she made some bad choices, but being drunk and horny is not an excuse for forcing someone else to fuck you (aka: rape). Do you argue that the men deserve less responsibility than the girl?

    Trying to be honest here. It won’t help to call me names, going forwards.

  16. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 19:23

    Also, score another for you. I am homo. Well deducted.

  17. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 19:45

    Realgmer, looking back at your earlier post, I see this, too: “I get it, rape can be hot. Not many can pass up taking a 16 year old dame to town – it’s awesome stuff.”
    Maybe it’s just hyperbole, but I doubt it.

    Additionally, I retract the part where I said: “Blaming ONLY the victim for getting raped?” I was wrong to say this. Retract it. I jumped the gun.

    I stick by my “pro rape” accusation though. The above comment from you should be enough to prove my point.

  18. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 19:52

    Realgmer sayys:
    “Funny how only after you get called out on your dishonesty do you attempt to ask (and poorly at that) what my position really is.”

    Why is that funny? It seems that my Internet debating skills are not as sharp as you would like, but I have never prided myself on said skill. You are a superior Internet debater, and I appreciate you being patient with me. Really. I’m learning a lot.

    Also, Realgmer says:
    “The lack of reading comprehension is strong with you.”

    I agree. I missed some stuff and have retracted a previous comment. I jumped the gun.

  19. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 19:54

    Realgmer says:
    “Lol, good call on that “rape can be hot” bit. I’m a absolute deviant in the sack, what can I say.”

    Ha, yah. That was a bit much. Honesty appreciated.

  20. Leo desforges on March 18, 2013 at 20:06

    @realgmer, same here. Respect.

    I lack enough deep intilectual stimulation in the day to day (most people lack the balls to ask the really hard, but really important questions) and seek it out on this site, from time to time.

    Thanks for actually helping me out on this one. I look forward to more challenges.

  21. Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 21:36

    @Leo

    “I’m not really sure where all of this: blaming the victim shit is coming from. Enlighten me.”

    Please read the post title again.

    Second, in no way am I going to get sucked into a debate on this where I have to defend against the charge that I’m pro rape or something, as I’m sure it will be characterized when it ends up on PaleoDrama or whatever.

    My position is outlined in the post.

    Or, I’ll put it another way and it’ll be my final word: a teenage girl, two teenage boys, out partying and drinking. What could possibly go wrong?

    Wise up, parents. Children are more children in some ways that we’ve ever seen in recent history.

    Alright, now people can go back to being shocked, SHOCKED.

  22. Richard Nikoley on March 18, 2013 at 21:40

    Leo, RealGMer:

    Get a room. Just play nice, OK?

  23. Danny J Albers on March 19, 2013 at 12:39

    Richard for someone stating they do not care about the popular viewpoint I find it odd you are making a big deal of the number of likes and retweets you got all within the same post.

  24. RobertVE on March 19, 2013 at 03:36

    “Get a room. Just play nice, OK?”

    Isn’t it beautiful? There is a real bromance forming here.

    @topic
    As for the rape issue, I guess what strikes me the most about this – and richard already mentioned this – is the reaction people have.

  25. Leo desforges on March 19, 2013 at 04:57

    Thanks Richard. I jumped the gun with earlier comments, paid the price and learned a lot in the process. Thanks.

  26. JOE on March 19, 2013 at 07:13

    .Or, maybe it’s just the modern equivalent of sending off the youngest men with the most potential, to war, to die for an “ideal” they never had a chance to realize in their 20 year life

    There should be an effort to put all military personal over the age of 50 of the frontlines. Better yet, a draft for all men between the ages of 50 and 55. Most of us are fat out of shape saps who hate thier jobs. We could get in shape and get out of our mid life crisis’s. We would feel like men agian. We might die but better us than a single 20 year old virgin.

  27. Eddie Mitchell on March 19, 2013 at 10:37

    I have been reading this blog for sometime. I have learned some good information and picked up some good food ideas. At times I thought the blog went over the top. But some of the comments on this thread are a total disgrace. Rape is rape full stop. There is no grey area. If I have read this right, you are talking about a 16 year old child. Jeez have some of you people no compassion. Richard you are plumbing the depths allowing some of these comments to pass.

    Eddie Mitchell

  28. Richard Nikoley on March 19, 2013 at 11:43

    Eddie:

    Since I published a generally unpopular viewpoint on a matter of current events, it seems like it would be quite silly of me to filter comments even more unpopular than my own view.

    I do agree that some of the comments are over the top.

    I invite you and others to read the substantial update I just added to the post in response to Wooo’s post about it where, among other things, I do state that I don’t subscribe to all the views expressed in comments—which kinda ought to go without saying.

    Unless one is going to filter and moderate everything, this sort of thing goes with the territory and I just presume it’s adults reading here, able to deal with it when their ears and eyes burn at the sight and sound of things they find repulsive.

  29. Eddie Mitchell on March 19, 2013 at 12:24

    Richard

    I believe there are varying degrees of rape. A woman walking to her home after work and having a knife placed at her throat could be viewed different by some as a drunken woman at a party, but it is still a very serious crime. All young people and some not so young make big mistakes, this does not make rape acceptable.

    You are obviously a very bright and informed man, you have a very large audience, I know the value of wind up posts, hence the latest wind up on our blog having a go at you. You don’t need it, you can do a great deal of good, why not concentrate on pushing a healthy lifestyle and a diet to promote a long and healthy life, I think we are in agreement over many things. Feel free to kick my butt.

    Kind regards Eddie

  30. Richard Nikoley on March 19, 2013 at 13:27

    Danny:

    I rarely mention it. It was in response to some commenter at Wooo’s making the point that I’m probably embarrassed because at the time there were only a few comments (and only maybe 1 or 2 likes).

    I agree it’s no big deal and means nothing per se in terms of being right or wrong. On the other hand, many people (these sorts of people, groupthinkers) very often falsely assume that when a viewpoint is perceived as highly unpopular that a lack of such feedback signifies that “everybody agrees,” when in fact it’s often the case that many think the same or similar but are reluctant to come out an say it.

    But I accept the criticism in terms of it not meaning anything in particular as to the logical veracity of my postion. In that, I already know I’m right anyway. 🙂

  31. Ron Scott on March 19, 2013 at 16:59

    “It’s none of my business. Now if you’ll excuse me I have a lengthy blog post to write, followed by many comments discussing it.”

  32. Richard Nikoley on March 19, 2013 at 18:42

    RGM:

    I simply could not suffer that comment you put up about Neal. So I deleted it.

    C’mon, man.

  33. Om Shanti Om on March 19, 2013 at 19:54

    Having been raised in a traditional Indian family (all 250 of us, LOL!), I have a lot of opinions about how Americans are generally raising (or not) their kids these days. However, its not always the fault of the parents. Peer pressure and mob mentality counts for a lot. One thing I noted here is that social life is age segregated. Most American teens seem not to “hang out” with their families – parents, aunts, uncles, cousins who are older, and mainly socialize with their same aged “peer groups” from school. In India our social life centered around the extended family and included all ages. Hindu holidays (and there are plenty of those) and weddings constitute two huge social venues for most Indians. There’s a lot of respect for elders and the lack of regard for parents and other elders here in the States was a shock for me. So even if parents ARE doing the best they can to raise their kids and instill values in them, kids have an independent mindset here. At least independent from their families – but not independent from their same age peer group.

    In short, the same age peer group has more influence over American teens than their families do.

    I also think the free and frequent availability of online porn has corrupted not only the youth but adults and old people here as well. Even if you’re not looking for it, inappropriate images and words appear on the internet and kids get exposed at ever younger ages.

    Then you have the lack of empathy. Compassion and empathy are values that can be taught. I think you Richard mentioned something on that other blog of yours I mentioned about some author writing what she perceived was or was not paleo and she made a comment about what diet would be the best globally, for the current financial well-being of people around the world and you had said that she (meaning we, humans) have not evolved to think about everyone else in the world, but I disagree.

    The small minded and not very evolved person will concern her or himself with only her or himself. A little bit more evolved and he or she will concern him or herself with his or her extended self – the family. Further evolved will be concerned with the other families around him or her, the tribe. Further evolved will be concerned about the conglomerate of tribes, or the village. Further evolved will be concerned with the general geo-ethno-culture that village is a part of. A yet further evolved person will concern him or herself with the continent. Further than that – the planet. Further than that – all living beings.

    Does this mean we can actually DO something personally for each and every living being? No. It is a matter of consciousness. That we wish well for all living beings and seek to harm none.

    This is “universal consciousness” and its potential is found in the human nervous system, the human brain, the human conscience.

    We have indeed evolved for this and it is what separates us from animals, though animals also display compassion and empathy too, but the potential for “universal consciousness” is not found in animals.

    In short, when kids do bad things, any number of factors, including or perhaps not, their parents, are contributing factors. But in general the mainstream message of current American culture, which is saturating the consciousness of the youth 24/7 from various media streams, is not a positive, respectful or compassionate one.

    And the strongest and most important social circle for your average American teen is OTHER American teens in his/her “peer group”. So the teens are not getting any input from people who are not saturated in this antipathetic mainstream culture.

  34. Richard Nikoley on March 19, 2013 at 20:04

    ….While making diner earlier I got curious, and so here’s a couple of Inconvenient Truths for the Double Standard file.

    1. According to the DOJ, 93,000 men are raped per year. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/210346.pdf (page 7). Of course, the rape of men, because it typically happens while incarcerated is typically the subject of merriment. Of course, the men who are raped are most likely to be the least hardened in terms of criminality.

    2. Breast cancer deaths per year: 40,000. Prostate cancer deaths per year: 30,000.

    “Last year, the United States government spent $699 million for breast cancer research, compared to $390 million for prostate cancer. A more equitable disbursement might be $699 million and $468 million. The disparity is not solely economic, though. Commercials, public service announcements, news segments and magazine articles address the issue of breast cancer, but rarely touch upon health issues affecting men. Millions of cars’ bumpers sport pink ribbon decals, symbolizing breast cancer awareness. Since 1985, October has officially been Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Numerous national organizations such as the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation work tirelessly to ensure that breast cancer is at the forefront of medical research, and fundraisers such as their annual Race for the Cure, as well as countless other benefits on state and local levels, collect millions more in research dollars. Fundraisers and events for prostate cancer are rare, at best.”

    http://voices.yahoo.com/the-great-dichotomy-breast-cancer-versus-prostate-106207.html

    OK, curiosity satisfied.

  35. Richard Nikoley on March 19, 2013 at 20:14

    Om Shanti Om:

    Here’s my general statement concerning social awareness, power, caring etc. In 9-parts.

    https://freetheanimal.com/2012/10/anarchy-begins-at-home-the-blog-series-part-1.html

    Here’s a view I wholeheartedly agree with in terms of the difficulty of cross-cultural and religious mutual understanding.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdKLIeRdJsI&feature=youtu.be

  36. Om Shanti Om on March 19, 2013 at 21:02

    I’m listening to the video now and I read your “Anarchy Begins at Home: The Blog Series Part 1 – The Quality of Paleo Knowledge”.

    So “paleo” refers to more than an eating routine? Explain that please.

    “It’s no system at all. It’s the absence of a central system. What happens in anarchy? EVERYTHING happens. So the smart people, as social beings, gravitate to social interaction that works best for them in a give & take, trade, mutual protection scenario.”

    That sounds good and I agree with it, but upon reflection it seems that’s what we’ve already done and it led us to our current system. The system that’s in place all over the world today is one of government. It didn’t happen in a vacuum or fall from the sky, people all over the world decided it was the way they wanted it, or we “evolved” toward it, you could say. Or as the above qoute stated, “gravitated” toward it.

    A random example; we’ve agreed that certain actions are crimes that put individuals at risk and so we agreed there needs to be a section of the population who are paid to fight that crime: the police.
    Of course many police are corrupt, that’s another subject, but over time humans decided that’s how we’re going to deal with crime and thus we “gravitated” toward having a police force.

    I mean, at some point in human development we had no police, no government, none of the institutions we have today, but today we have them. That means we gravitated toward all this.

    If now we are gravitating away from it, that’s not to say that we may never again gravitate back toward it.

    It appears to me that our current state of existence, government and all, is something that we were pulled toward, perhaps something that we could not have avoided because the time for it was ripe. We had evolved toward everything that we currently are. That includes the good and the bad.

  37. Richard Nikoley on March 19, 2013 at 21:14

    That’s actually not how government began at all OSO. Government began after the advent of agriculture, once there were assets. It was a means of organization amongst thieves who would plunder villages for tradable goods and livestock. Since there was no communication in which to organize, a group could ride days or weeks only to find a village had already been looted.

    The natural solution was for the thieves to remain in place and set up a protection racket. That was the first government. There was never anything “we” about it.

  38. ladysadie1 on March 20, 2013 at 05:36

    I see that I am a little late to the party here, but I don’t see what all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is all about. A stupid girl wanted to go get drunk and hook up with some “football players who are the rockstars of some little town – and not in her usual social circle. She got what she wanted but then got embarrassed by the outcome so she cried rape, because she’s a GoodLittleGirl (TM).

    Why all the shock that this happened at all? JB has already covered this at length here: http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/18/why-dont-we-have-a-dumb-fucking-whore-registry-now-that-would-be-justice/

    Here are two quotes to get the feminists and the manginas in an uproar:

    “Comparing a stupid, drunk, helmet-chasing whore who gets fingered while passed out to an actual rape victim is completely and utterly absurd.”

    and this:

    “That girl had no friends at the party, not one person had enough respect for her to step in, she was not part of the social tribe and there is no way in hell she did not know that. She went to that party to nab herself a football player, and lo and behold, the football players didn’t really like such an obvious grasp at their glory.”

    For those of you who aren’t fortunate enough to live in a small-town setting, the part of the above quote from judgybitch that is The Most Important Thing is this: “she was not part of the social tribe and there is no way in hell she did not know that” That is the way it works in a little town, and if the victim hadn’t been publically “outed” for voluntarily getting herself passed around like a little tramp, she wouldn’t have cried rape in the first place. Embarrassment does not equal Rape and Laws do not equal Common Sense. In the end, all you have is your Reputation. Those are lessons that should be taught by parents.

  39. Joshua on March 20, 2013 at 06:44

    C’mon Richard! Everybody likes touching breasts! Nobody likes touching a prostate though.

    On a serious note, how much of the disparity is due to the fact that men seem more reticent to talk about their health problems than women. Or is that just a myth?

  40. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 06:54

    “On a serious note, how much of the disparity is due to the fact that men seem more reticent to talk about their health problems than women. Or is that just a myth?”

    I think it’s BS. If men raised and drummed these issues like women feel wholly entitled to do, they’d be laughed off the face of the Earth as a bunch of manginas.

  41. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 07:40

    I know all of that about prostate cancer, Wooo. It’s not the point. My response to Joshua is the point. Still, prostate cancer does kill younger men too, like Frank Zappa.

    OK, that out of the way, what do you think about making a joke of men being raped?

  42. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 07:55

    Re JB Wooo.

    “JB is such repugnant human being. ” Says you and so what? I think overall she’s great, even though I could pic a few nits with that post. Says me and so what?

    What’s important is that she has the courage to write wildly unpopular stuff from the standpoint of the general catechism, and it’s always stuff that some women hate, some women love, some men hate and some men love.

    It used to be that about the only place seemingly outrageous things that many think but can never say was in the context of a late night standup routine. Not any more.

    I find it an interesting dynamic. Pretty much forever pretty much everyone was only subjected to the official party line on virtually everything. No more. Now, people, if they want to be on the Internet at all are veritably ASSAULTED every single day with viewpoints they didn’t even know a sane person and that fan base could even possibly hold—it was only the very, very fringe, before, and that fringe could never get any real traction because of the costs of widespread communication.

    This is progress. Everyone thinking and saying the same thing is awfully boring.

  43. ladysadie1 on March 20, 2013 at 08:08

    “I can’t wait for her preshuz right wing home schooled lil’ yunguns to go out and run amok with some asshole… I sure hope nothing happens to her daughter like this poor 16 year old girl she hates so much.”

    That’s the point. JB is pushing the idea that the adults were nowhere to be found while all this was happening. Seems unlikely that JB’s daughter won’t know better than to go by herself to a drinking party with the intention of hooking up and then cry foul later.

    But, typical Wooo, to unleash thinly veiled wishes of evil upon those who don’t agree with her liberal MSM opinion. Yawn.

  44. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 08:12

    “but they are also exceedingly rare ”

    Department of Justice says 93,000 per year (2011 figures if I recall). I suppose it’s rare compared to a lot of things but rare rare? Really?

    “Adult female raping adult man is extremely rare for numerous reasons”

    Uh, duh. When one talks about the rape of a male it’s generally assumed it’s by another male. Are you making some meaningful distinction here? Most guys I know wouldn’t typically consider a woman “forcing” herself on a man in any way a rape unless it involved actual violence. One time in Japan I was in some town at a bar and when it closed I walked down the stairs with the hostesses who serve up drinks and karaoke. As we parted ways, one of the girls just up and fished her hand down my pants, took a grab and a tug. Was I “assaulted?” I think not.

    And part of the problem in such scenarios (where there’s no clear evidence of force or battery) is that people can change their minds. What was copping a feel the night before and quasi “welcome” may turn out to be “rape” the next morning or in a few days, should expectations not be met. And, people are vindictive and lie for al sorts of reasons. And who hasn’t experienced the fat ugly chick who’s constantly going on about various unseen and imaginary guys always trying to get in their panties? ….I digress.

    “I’ve read the stories of male rape victims in prison, it’s disgusting horrible tragic horrific and life ruining.”

    No doubt. So, OK, when is that rant coming about how it’s so acceptable in our society to make light of it and joke about it? Can you imagine people joking about the real, violent rape of a woman in ANY context? Here, we are basically disagreeing over degrees. That is, had this involved bruises, genital penetration, etc etc there would be no discussion about it and the guys would either have been prosecuted as adults or if prosecuted as minors would most certainly be in lockup until 21yo.

  45. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 08:27

    ….oh, forgot another anecdote.

    One of my guys back in the Navy used to tell a story about when he was 6 his teenage girl babysitter taught him how to perform cunnilingus on her, not once but regularly.

    He always said it was the greatest thing that ever happened to him, always to nods from all the guys in earshot.

  46. ladysadie1 on March 20, 2013 at 08:30

    “She was only 16, and she wanted to hang out at a party! Clearly she deserves to be raped? ”

    That is not at all what JB said. To clarify, no one said she deserved to be raped. I believe the valid point is that the girl got the outcome that was most likely in return for her actions. You can’t really think that a girl from outside her normal social circle isn’t smart enough to know you don’t crash a Varsity Football party, get totally smashed, specifically seek out the high profile athletes, throw yourself at them and then… what??? Wake up the next morning as Homecoming Queen? Give me a break. My kids know that and they aren’t quite in H.S. yet.

    Back to what I said in the first place, including the quote from JB:

    “The Most Important Thing is this: *she was not part of the social tribe and there is no way in hell she did not know that* That is the way it works in a little town, and if the victim hadn’t been publicly “outed” for voluntarily getting herself passed around like a little tramp, she wouldn’t have cried rape in the first place. Embarrassment does not equal Rape and Laws do not equal Common Sense. In the end, all you have is your Reputation. Those are lessons that should be taught by parents.”

    If you are pushing the idea that anyone can do as they wish at any time without fear of consequences, please send directions to your location, I have always wanted to see what it’s like to live in a world with constant rainbows, fairies and unicorns is like. Until then, I think the most prudent action is to make sure young people know that they have to take personal responsibility for their actions and if they choose not to then they have to accept the results.

  47. Joshua on March 20, 2013 at 08:32

    Woo – Why is this the first I’m hearing about cheerleaders assaulting a man? Nobody tells me anything!

  48. ladysadie1 on March 20, 2013 at 08:42

    Wooo

    “yea these ultra right wing catholic/christian shut in children never grow up to be outrageous and rebellious. NEVER HAPPENS!”

    Who knows how sheltered JB’s kids really are? Certainly, there are people who try to provide their children with a sanitized version of the world around them, but that isn’t as common as you might think. Having followed JB for a while now, I think it’s more likely that she will have open, frank discussions with her kids about her beliefs.

    Feel free to enlighten me as to the correct way to parent daughters, using your own firsthand experience, of course.

  49. Galina L. on March 20, 2013 at 09:17

    Ok, I didn’t want initially to comment because I thought if adult people didn’t understand already how disgusting it was to consider equally guilty the silly 16 yo girl and the football players who violated her, than no discussion would be able to change it. However, if Richard thinks it would be more honest to go to his blog and express my disgust with the people who think like judgybitch and RealGMer I can certainly do so. I am absolutely disgusted. It is not about their verbal choices, it is about their mental attitude.
    It never happened with me, but I remember how I saw world in 16, how silly and naive I was, the unreasonable trust that I had in people, the optimism, the exiting change in guys around me who out of blue started to get more interested in my company, and I felt like a quine.

  50. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 09:31

    “I now hate JB even more, if it was possible to hate this asshole more.”

    Probably, if you haven’t yet read the original that dealt with the actual deal.

    For myself, I’m increasingly getting over the notion of hating most anyone for anything they say in the moment, in a rant, etc. I’ll reserve that for the ones who really deserve it, like the two Internet Stalking Terriers.

  51. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 09:34

    Joshua:

    First, read the link Sadie posted by Judgy Bitch, then this one:

    http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/19/two-trailer-park-boys-go-round-the-outside-round-the-outside/

  52. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 09:51

    “It is not about their verbal choices, it is about their mental attitude.”

    Oh please. I am so sick to death over this outrage over “thought crimes.” JB is way more right about way more things than she gets credit for.

    For example, the quote LS1 put up. Basically, it became a “rape” once things didn’t end up measuring up to her expectations like waking up in one or both of their arms, and not being ridiculed at being drunk and passed around.

    I’m not sure what kind of young lives others have led, but even when I was in grade school, copping a hit & run feel of burgeoning breasts or “goosing” a girl—or being goosed by them—was just a right of passage that children of the 60s were better at drawing distinctions about that our so-called adults in our pussified zero-tolerance, zero thinking, perpetually outraged culture.

    I’ve completely stopped using the word “outraged.” Everyone is “outraged” now, about everything and the word no longer has any meaning.

    Now, here’s another anecdote for ya. Back in college I was fortunate to over time, finally hook up with arguably one of the top few hot grils in our co-ed dorm. Lasted about a year and a half and at a point, she liked to verbalize fantasies while being stimulated.

    Wanna guess? Yep, bunch of football jocks encircling her naked body, showering her with “pearls.” See, I actually have quite a bit of experience in this area because I used to seek it out and encourage it with zero hint of shame. So this idea that women don’t in some way have fantasies that are now defined as rape? Bullshit, because I’ve heard dozens of them first hand.

  53. ladysadie1 on March 20, 2013 at 10:04

    Richard:

    Thanks for reiterating that this didn’t become a rape until later on the next day when the rumor mill fired up.

    I want to also re-emphasize that it’s a small community. This sort of thing is much more likely to happen when someone doesn’t stick to their own “tribe”. I think that played a BIG role in this incident whether or not anyone chooses to acknowledge it.

  54. Galina L. on March 20, 2013 at 10:27

    I wasn’t not outraged, I was disgusted. It is the difference between trying to raise a hell, attacking somebody’s standing and turning away from a hopeless mental cripple who doesn’t worth any discussion because he/she doesn’t show any sights of capacity to get what could be possibly wrong with their point of view.
    Males and females reach their full sexual potential at different age. For females it is more intense after 25-27. I think (just my personal suspicion based on observations) that very young girls are mostly interested in any signs of guys attention and very often fake extreme sexual interest in order to get more of that attention and make themselves more valuable in the eyes of an opposite gender. Such line of acting may take really silly and unsure in themselves girls into the “whore” category more often than being just “horny”.

  55. Joshua on March 20, 2013 at 11:04

    Sadie, Based on what I’ve read, I think you’re mischaracterizing what happened when you say “this didn’t become a rape until later on the next day when the rumor mill fired up”.

    When she woke up, the girl had zero memory of what happened. Once she figured out what happened, then she realized that she had been raped.

    Also, I don’t think this is accurate “not in her usual social circle.” She had previously dated and broken up with one of the other football players. I don’t know what motivations there might have been on the part of his friends or her, but it might have complicated things.

    Did the girl make some mistakes? Definitely. Did she deserve what happened to her? No. Did you watch the 8 minute video of a fellow football player bragging about how “dead” she was and how much fun it was that his friends had taken advantage of her drunken state?

  56. Om Shanti Om on March 20, 2013 at 11:05

    2 Points:

    1. Judgy Bitch. Have any of you perused through her blog? She openly brags about “hooking up” with random men in bars during her youth who “looked liked Brad Pitt through beer goggles”. I kid you not. That was one of her early posts when she barely knew, if at all, what the “Manosphere” was. Now that she’s one of their mascots and most faithful cheerleaders, she may have removed it, because she would have since been clued in on how “anti-slut” the Manosphere is, so perhaps now she’s catering to their “submissive and chaste housewife” fantasies.

    2. Richard wrote; “That’s actually not how government began at all OSO. Government began after the advent of agriculture, once there were assets. It was a means of organization amongst thieves who would plunder villages for tradable goods and livestock. Since there was no communication in which to organize, a group could ride days or weeks only to find a village had already been looted.

    The natural solution was for the thieves to remain in place and set up a protection racket. That was the first government. There was never anything “we” about it.”

    —- Yeah. I was going to tie that in. You see, all of what we call “civilization” today began with the first family formations. When early humans saw a benefit to the survival and well-being of offspring in forming protective families around them. Rather than simply getting pregnant and having the male run off to impregnate other women, it dawned on them that infants that had the benefit of male investment as well as female investment, had better chances of survival. Thus the first family units were formed. From there, larger units of community such as a conglomerate of families would then form a village. It is at this point that “government” was formed as humans began delegating different duties to different members of the community and naturally some “leaders” emerged as the delegators or “chiefs” if you will.

    This is basically early government. What we have now is the “evolution” and expansion of that.

    Of course power corrupts so what may have begun as primitive community organization is now a beast with tentacles everywhere.

  57. Om Shanti Om on March 20, 2013 at 11:46

    Regarding so-called “minors”. Commit an adult crime? Do adult time, baby!

    And here’s one who said “f*ck you” in court to his victims’ families!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/19/tj-lane-sentenced-to-life-chardon_n_2907540.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

  58. Om Shanti Om on March 20, 2013 at 11:55

    ladysadie1 // Mar 20, 2013 at 08:42

    Wooo

    “yea these ultra right wing catholic/christian shut in children never grow up to be outrageous and rebellious. NEVER HAPPENS!”

    Who knows how sheltered JB’s kids really are?
    __________

    Not very. On her blog she writes that she’ll have her husband introduce her son “good porn” before he gets exposed to the “bad porn”.

    I wonder what kind of porn she’ll introduce her daughters to?

    JB may be many things but “ultra right wing catholic/christian” she is not.

  59. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 12:06

    “She openly brags about “hooking up” with random men in bars during her youth who “looked liked Brad Pitt through beer goggles”.”

    In my book, that’s moderately admirable

    . Though I never, ever engaged in “the girls all get prettier at closing time,” I was often embarrassed to be friends with some guys. So funny to me, OSO, having lived the bar scene internationally in my 20s (guys: Singapore cannot be beat. Have you any idea of the melting pot, Chinese and arab, and with a more cosmopolitan sense of ethical dynamics?).

    That said, consider that what makes a good blog is exactly what you describe, allude to and all the implications. Blogs are many things but what a real blog ought to be is something tied to a real personality, a real person, a real fuck-upper at times, who in the course of time learns a thing or two, and always at least enough to be embarrassed by old posts.

    Shit, if I had not the capacity to be embarrassed by old posts on various topics I would not in my mind have a true blog. I’d have a website.

    ….On government and families. Don’t forget what’s probably uniquely human: the role of grandparents and their tending to children so the younger parents could do the labor required for the physical survival of everyone. This is probably what has made homo Sapiens the most successful species. When I and my three younger brothers (all over 40, now) look back, it’s very clear that our maternal grandparents were the largest influence in our young, formative years. It makes sense. Of course, that’s a tiding of wonderfulness for my mom, a bit of an irritation for my dad, even though he loved and admired them as much as we did and arguably, even more than his own parents (who were very great as well, but not quite the flamboyant Goodsell’s—being German immigrants). My dad was and still is fabulous, but largely so because he’s paying it forward with all of his own grandchildren.

    I was very fortunate. I grew up a short walk away from my maternal grandparents home and spent my formative years roaming around in their 10 acres of riverfront property and my grandfather was an artist—unlike ANY of us—and back in those days, made a living by painting the signs for all the casinos in Reno. My paternal grandparents were a mile or two away. My maternal great grandmother on my grandmother’s side live here in the Bay Area and in her last years, in Reno as well.

    I grew up with all of them around me, I saw them all the time, often, in the case of the grandparents, every single day of every single year.

    I was over 30 before any of them began dying, even my great GM—owing to the fact that she ran away with a guy during the depression and had my grandmother at 14 (her husband would be imprisoned today for RAPE). They’re all gone, now, but what a wonderful ride it was while it lasted.

  60. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 12:28

    “Commit an adult crime? Do adult time, baby!

    And here’s one who said “f*ck you” in court to his victims’ families!”

    I’m invigorated over the last few days, having found a new respect for judges who overlook irrelevancies.

    Clearly, it’s a rare talent.

    The point being, I really don’t care to engage the rabbit hole of thought crime and symbolic action. His actual actions are relevant and nothing else and clearly, almost nobody should sit in judgment.

    For the record, I have always thought the idea of “demonstrating contrition” as relevant in sentencing is chump move. Get your FACTS of THE CRIME straight, sentence accordingly within what little discretion you have left as society now basically wants everyone who disturbs the precious civil order sentenced to life.

    It’s catharsis, to be sure. That’s about all it is, though, for what it’s worth.

    Incidentally, I saw that news yesterday, rolled my eyes and moved on.

  61. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 12:40

    “JB may be many things but “ultra right wing catholic/christian” she is not.”

    OSO. I knew I had you pegged from the start which is why I asked you to email me for something (not received yet). You are exactly the sort of commenter I like here.

    Fearless. It’s rare that someone actually studies the subject of their proclamations.

    Even in disagreement, salute, sir.

  62. Galina L. on March 20, 2013 at 12:54

    “The role of grandparents”. Most of people I knew in Russia had either very involved grandparents or were raised by their grandparents while the parents both worked. Even neighbors were involved to some degree. My mother-in-law supervised her next door neighbors school-age doter free-of-charge(asking for money just didn’t cross her minds ) because she cared and consider parents her friends.

  63. Om Shanti Om on March 20, 2013 at 13:21

    Richard Nikoley // Mar 20, 2013 at 12:28

    “Commit an adult crime? Do adult time, baby!

    And here’s one who said “f*ck you” in court to his victims’ families!”

    I’m invigorated over the last few days, having found a new respect for judges who overlook irrelevancies.

    Clearly, it’s a rare talent.

    The point being, I really don’t care to engage the rabbit hole of thought crime and symbolic action. His actual actions are relevant and nothing else and clearly, almost nobody should sit in judgment.
    ——————————-

    A major factor in convictions and the extent of punishment has to do with “remorse”. Obviously someone who shows no remorse for their crimes, such as this 17 year old murderer as evidence by his “f*ck you” in a court of law, would not be able to elicit sympathy from the jurors or judge so he can expect to prosecuted to the fullest extent.

    Re: Grandparents.

    In Indian culture we have what is called the joint family system wherein a bride goes to live in the home of her parents-in-law after marriage. Bascially daughters are “married out” while sons “bring home” their brides. Most Indians even today grow up in a house with their paternal grand parents. Of course this is not without its fair share of drama, exploitation, bick-biting and overall inter-generational family intrique I assure you, and as all of our soap operas, sit-coms and movies will attest to.

  64. JudgyBitch on March 20, 2013 at 13:35

    “She openly brags about “hooking up” with random men in bars during her youth who “looked liked Brad Pitt through beer goggles”.”

    Hahahahahahaha!

    Good reading comrehension, bro.

    In that post, I talk about how I did NOT hook up Brad Pitt precisely because I had friends around to save me from my OWN poor judgement.

    http://judgybitch.com/2012/10/22/54/

  65. donny on March 20, 2013 at 14:51

    If JB’s role reversal were real, and not made up, I think it’s rape. The problem with penetration isn’t the penetration–or consensual sex would be rape. It’s the liberty taken. The attack on the dignity and freedom of the victim. Get a guy drunk, do that to him, drag him around town and humiliate him–I don’t see it as different. The real and the made-up situation are both nasty and cruel.

    • Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 18:47

      “I think it’s rape.”

      Donny, I’m gonna give you a hint. Download you comment on to your device—no, not that one, the one you carry around. Ehem. Show it to the hot girls who think you’re sweet.

      It’ll get you an evening peck on the cheek every single time. Guaranteed.

      You go MAN! Hero! WAY TO REPRESENT!



  66. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 17:07

    OSO:

    “A major factor in convictions and the extent of punishment has to do with “remorse”.”

    Indeed. You state an obvious truth. What I’m saying is I disagree and we have lost the precious jurisprudence that was capable of overlooking that either way (so as not to be fooled), or, at minimum, to give it a bit of weight dependent on other factors, if deemed sincere. Now, it’s just CourtChannel fodder of whatever, for entertainment—a “civilized” version of the Roman coliseum and nothing new under the sun. People want their entertainment, even if it involves real lives and real flesh.

    Grandparents. We have many cherished Indian friends here in Silicon Valley and my wife (now finishing her 30th year as a school teacher) has had most of our friends’ kids in her 5th or 6th grade classroom over the many years—in the almost 20 years I’ve known her.

    Very much unlike Americans, we are veritable family and it’s hard to imagine what we could possibly do to change it. Even more. As I was building my company and in the early 2000s began doing fancy Xmas parties in SF, we had only about 15 employees at the time augmented with friends & family. Guess what? Those Indian friends never, ever missed a single party in the 8 or so years I spared no expense (we’re talking open hosted bar with top shelf booze, gourmet buffet, the works, 20K + every year, for a night of fun and payback—employees even got a free hotel room so they didn’t have the drive back to San Jose). While we grew and more employees were there and I had to limit, I limited invitations to family, not my other, Indian family that had show so much enthusiasm and appreciation of so many years without a single exception.

    You party animals.

    Anyway, we are always invited to every event and attend every single one we can. We love it every time and it’s very, very special to us to be included.

    I always feel great when with those loved & cherished friends. I have never ever dismissed the idea that I can learn important cultural and familial values from them.

  67. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 18:07

    JudgyBitch:

    Welcome, from one independent mind to another, via even another.

    I’m shamed, I read a lot of your stuff a while ago, claps and eye rolls (tell me, please, when your eyes roll involuntarily at something I write–you may have neurological connections I don’t).

    Anyway, real minds are like gold panning to me–it’s fuckimg dismal every time.

    I’m going to pay more attention to you.

  68. Om Shanti Om on March 20, 2013 at 18:27

    Richard Nikoley // Mar 20, 2013 at 17:07

    OSO:

    “A major factor in convictions and the extent of punishment has to do with “remorse”.”

    Indeed. You state an obvious truth. What I’m saying is I disagree and we have lost the precious jurisprudence that was capable of overlooking that either way (so as not to be fooled), or, at minimum, to give it a bit of weight dependent on other factors, if deemed sincere. Now, it’s just CourtChannel fodder of whatever, for entertainment—a “civilized” version of the Roman coliseum and nothing new under the sun. People want their entertainment, even if it involves real lives and real flesh.
    ———–

    Well, this sort of ties into the comment I”m going to make on your latest blog regarding the increasing coarseness in mainstream American culture and the glibness at which it is responded with. Not exactly a nurturing environment for empathy, is it?

    And by now you should know that we Indians cannot handle alcohol very well!

  69. Om Shanti Om on March 20, 2013 at 18:30

    ” It’s the liberty taken. The attack on the dignity and freedom of the victim.”

    Correct. And I agree.

  70. Richard Nikoley on March 20, 2013 at 21:40

    “regarding the increasing coarseness in mainstream American culture and the glibness at which it is responded with. Not exactly a nurturing environment for empathy, is it?”

    Of course not.

    People seem to have—to me, anyway—this weird notion that whatever they say or write must be something they can be eternally proud of. It’s rarely that way for me, but I accept the realities. I also accept that realities—in the sense of individual realities—wax & wane. It’s too complex, and I write. And so, I write and let chips fall.

    I do my best to allow people to see my worst, because then, they can know my worst. Make any sense?

    “And by now you should know that we Indians cannot handle alcohol very well!”

    Nobody can. It’s such a complex mixed bag it can’t be deconstructed. Ernest Hemingway wrote: “Write drunk, edit sober.” I always loved that and it rings very true.

  71. donny on March 21, 2013 at 05:36

    What do cheek-pecks have to do with the definition of rape? If the girl was paraded around town, unconscious–suppose there was no penetration. Suppose they just tickled around the edges, whatever. Was she much less violated? I really don’t think so. What makes it different if it’s a guy? The physical reaction? He’s unconscious, it’s an automatic physical response. Her body may have physically responded, as well–that’s not consent.

    I have severe social anxiety, so those cheek-pecks actually mean a lot to me. But that’s not my motivation for saying this–and if you’re just saying it won’t get me laid, well yeah, thanks, I know that. Didn’t come here to get laid.

  72. donny on March 21, 2013 at 05:41

    JB”S argument that there’s worse that could have happened–well, yeah. But the line has to be drawn somewhere. There’s hardly any situation where you couldn’t imagine worse.

  73. JudgyBitch on March 21, 2013 at 07:54

    Donny,

    My argument is NOT that worse could have happened. My argument is that the boys are being punished out of all proportion to the crime. I’m not excusing those little assholes, but I grew up in a small town and I know exactly what happens to women outside the social group who make a grab for the high status boys.

    She was in other women’s territory, she KNEW that, she choose to get shit-faced drunk and accompany two of the Golden Boys and she got treated in exactly the way she outght to have been able to predict.

    If she’s being “punished” by having her reputation slurred and having images of her all over the internet passed out drunk, why isn’t that also sufficient punishment for the boys? They will have their douchiness immortalized (until the next interesting thing comes along).

    I personally think they all should have gotten wrist slaps: the boys for being assholes and the girl for being a drunk jersey-chaser.

    Everyone behaved poorly. Every single one of the kids at the party behaved poorly. Some one ought to have stepped in and put a stop to what the boys were doing. No one did.

    That speaks volumes about how the girl was viewed, no? In a small town, where you all live together, you defend each other from the consequences of shitty decisions. It’s just reality. One that urban folks seem to have forgetten ever existed.

    In no way to do I excuse the boys. But I don’t excuse the girl either. She is NOT blameless.

  74. donny on March 21, 2013 at 09:31

    JB-Okay. Sorry if I misrepresented your thoughts.

    We’re all responsible for our own safety. But a slip-up in that area is just plain more forgivable then the responsibility we also all bear for not molesting or raping each other. There’s a far cry between, you should have been more careful, and serves you right, what did you expect, you little slut.

  75. ladysadie1 on March 21, 2013 at 10:00

    +1 JB

    Thanksalso for pointing out the part that small-town psychology plays in this case.

  76. Om Shanti Om on March 21, 2013 at 16:28

    “My argument is that the boys are being punished out of all proportion to the crime.”

    I’ve done some googling and it appears they aren’t being punished very much at all. They were tried in a juvenile court system and are being detained in a juvenile center. Upon legal adulthood their legal record will be swiped clean.

    They admitted to committing the crime so this is really a no brainer.

  77. Om Shanti Om on March 21, 2013 at 16:36

    “People seem to have—to me, anyway—this weird notion that whatever they say or write must be something they can be eternally proud of. ”

    In this culture?! They seem to have this weird notion that whatever they say or write must be something subversive and shocking. The cruder the better.

    “Some one ought to have stepped in and put a stop to what the boys were doing. No one did.

    That speaks volumes about how the girl was viewed, no?”

    It doesn’t mean that view is right. I mean kids, especially teens, can be very cruel for no reason. I remember a few kids I didn’t even really know, never had a conversation with them in my life, saying that they “hated” me. I did nothing to them. Just because someone is unpopular doesn’t mean they are bad. Quite the contrary in American culture. Chances are they are unpopular precisely because they are good or compassionate or introverted or any other host of positive humane qualities.

    Anyway these young men admitted they did the crime. They should do the time but they are just getting a few years in a juvenile home and that’s it. Hardly punishment to speak of.

  78. Joshua on March 21, 2013 at 21:05

    “they aren’t being punished very much at all”

    Their real punishment is that their reputations are ruined. Any date they go on, any job they apply for, the first search anybody does for them will turn up the fact they they fingered a comatose girl. I don’t know about you, but I doubt many girls will be interested in dating them, or that there will be many employers excited about hiring them. The real justice here won’t be coming from the “justice system”.

  79. ladysadie1 on March 22, 2013 at 05:45

    I haven’t had quite enough coffee to deal with all that ridiculous hyperbole, Wooo but I’m going to give it a whirl anyway.

    I’m not speaking for JB, forget that. She is more than capable of speaking for herself.

    “Raping and defiling an outsider is just a small town southern thing.”

    You’ve watched deliverance one too many times/inhaled a little too much hairspray from teasing your hair/and this isn’t the South. Anyone with half a brain knows that raping children and defiling outsiders are not our core values. Expecting a person to take personal responsibility both for their actions and to ensure their personal safety – yes, that IS a core value.

    I don’t lock my doors and neither do my neighbors, but I most certainly DO lock the doors when I am in Town. (“Town” being the closest place with a mall, a Target store and a university.) It’s not cawse I don’t trust them there city-folks… It’s because, DUH, it’s a big place where my neighbor Billy-Bob aint there to watch my stuff. If someone wanted to reach into the truck and grab my purse or jack my cooler full of beer, no one might realize it wasn’t that person’s stuff and I would be *GASP!!!* A Victim. (Cue the sympathy for the poor helpless victim here.)

    The same sensibility that tells me to lock the door so no one helps themselves to my possessions is also the reason that women on second and third shift get front row parking or have someone escort them to their cars before or after work. It is the reason that we teach our daughters not to go out alone and get drunk with a group that’s a little outside their social circle. I can understand your misguided vitriol for Common Sense, that type of utopian ignorance of basic human behavior seems to be a badge of honor among your type.

    This isn’t a matter of “transcend[ing] social boundaries. This place is surprisingly diverse, we have both Catholics and Lutherans. Plus there are a couple of gays, but that one feller don’t have a lick of fashion sense so we aren’t really all that sure. He might just kiss that other dude to keep the ladies from following him around everywhere. (As women are wont to do when a man’s belly hangs down 4-5 inches over his belt and he’s got a double chin.)

    P.S. Wooo: I do believe in evolution, I just happen to also believe that it isn’t always moving in the right direction, which you have clearly proven with your small minded rant.

    Om, don’t let Wooo frighten you, small town folks are real nice people. If you want to visit Kansas, I will be happy to take you to a High School football game, and heck, Wooo can come along, too. We just won’t be crashing any parties later. Civilized people only go where they are invited.

    To everyone: for the record, and all sarcasm aside, the last outsiders we ran out of town were some pro-life jack-asses from Topeka who were having a picket line of sorts on our town square. They weren’t asked to leave because anyone agreed or disagreed with them. We just hold our decisions on such matters to be private affairs and a matter of individual choice. The same way we handle the misbehavior of our children.

  80. Om Shanti Om on March 22, 2013 at 12:20

    Joshua, “Their real punishment is that their reputations are ruined. Any date they go on, any job they apply for, the first search anybody does for them will turn up the fact they they fingered a comatose girl. I don’t know about you, but I doubt many girls will be interested in dating them, or that there will be many employers excited about hiring them. The real justice here won’t be coming from the “justice system”.

    Hopefully this will serve as a deterrent for future potential fingerers of comotose girls.

    Its not “society’s fault” that these individuals chose to commit that crime.

    At some point personal responsibility had to be taken, and they took it.

    The chips are falling where they are falling.

  81. Om Shanti Om on March 22, 2013 at 14:03

    ” Trent Mays will serve two years in what amounts to a boarding school. Malik Richmond will only serve one year. They will both be considered sex offenders until their 21st birthdays, as Ohio law seems to think that a lifetime spot on the sex offender registry is cruel and unusual.”

  82. Elenor on March 23, 2013 at 08:29

    Disclaimer: I’ve paid no attention to this latest in a millennium-long line of inter-sex problems… I’ve only read this blog entry and comments. (This incident is not news that touches my life; Richard’s blog does, cause I read it every day.) So I’m just addressing what I’ve read here.

    Charles: She put herself in a position to get raped??

    Obviously, because she was assaulted!! If you walk out into traffic, you have put yourself in a position to get hit by a car. If you climb into a tiger’s cage, you have put yourself in a position to get mauled. If you put yourself in a drunken stupid (ha, I meant to type stupor but “stupid” fits!) around drunken young men, you have ABSOLUTELY put yourself in a position to get “raped.” Welcome to reality! If this poor girl was stupid enough to think she was safe so drunk she passed out, then she got a helluva lesson! She’s lucky this was the worst that happened, and she got a terrible painful lesson without anywhere NEAR the level of damage and harm she could have undergone.

    Is it her fault? To a degree, absolutely! Does it excuse the boys/men? Absolutely not — (almost) no one has said it does! But look, if someone Is STUPID enough to get passed-out drunk around drunken men… they’re stupid enough to be misused — or raped! Or sodomized and mutilated and murdered! Was what happened to her horrible? Yes. Was it PREDICTABLE?! Also yes! Who forgot to introduce her to real life?! Well, she’s been introduced now… (Alas for her — but shit happens! She got off pretty easy, all possibilities considered!)

    Eddie: Rape is rape full stop. There is no grey area. If I have read this right, you are talking about a 16 year old child.

    And whose fault is it that at 16 she’s still a child?! Let’s place a good chunk of blame on her parents, on this pathological society, and, yes, on the goddamned feminists who keep thinking that “if only” they wish (and scream) hard enough, why people will stop being primate animals and begin to be something else!! (Note: not gonna happen.)

    donny: The attack on the dignity and freedom of the victim.

    The dignity and freedom of the girl so drunk she was passed out and couldn’t remember what happened until she saw the pix?! She had already showed she lacked dignity (and common sense; and THAT is her parent’s fault!).

    LadySadie: Expecting a person to take personal responsibility both for their actions and to ensure their personal safety – yes, that IS a core value.

    BRAVA!

    p.s.. Richard: “two Internet Stalking Terriers.”
    LOVE it!

  83. Richard Nikoley on March 23, 2013 at 09:13

    “two Internet Stalking Terriers”

    Ah, you get it. Terrier Bitches,” of course, in technical terms. Just won’t let anything go, ever, and notoriously difficult to even pry it away.

  84. Jack on March 24, 2013 at 05:20

    Fantastic article! Agree with everything you said!

  85. ATM on March 27, 2013 at 04:57

    Richard, why was this even a story?

    Before coming here, I had just finished reading Wooo’s March 19th rant plus the ~230 (mostly disappointing) comments. That thread left me with the (mistaken) impression that you’d gone full retard and this was a gangbang rape of epic proportions; runnin’ trains, triple penetrations, ATM, bukkakes – the whole nine yards.

    Then I follow the link to CNN and see this is about some drunk, passed out party girl getting paraded and finger fucked. Are you kidding me? GTFOH with that shit. This should have been in the school paper or, at most, the local paper seeing as it’s a small town.

    Calling what happened to that girl ‘rape’ is an insult to the countless victims of REAL rape like the men violently raped in prison, the women ambushed, raped and sometimes killed, the rape victims of war, and saddest of all, the defenseless children abused, violated and traumatized by the monsters in our midst.

    What scares me is not a couple of budding sociopathic, low life frat boys copping a few feels in Bumfuck, Ohio. No, what’s really scary are the countless bloodthirsty, ‘rights without responsibility’ feminazis who would lock up 17 year old finger fucking MEN on the fickle, vindictive whims of 16 year old GIRLS free to run wild and do whatever the hell they please (see how irrational, hateful, manipulative, sexist and self serving they are?).

    Equally scary and contemptible are their legions of white knight sympathizers who are so breathtakingly naïve and nutless when it comes to women they lack the discernment and the balls to stand up to them. Such useless excuses for men were too busy fawning all over Wooo’s comment section to see the gaping holes in her chick ‘logic’. A few of those types even showed up here. Barf.

    I’m gonna catch some zzz’s and tomorrow, even though the thread is pretty much dead and everyone’s moved on, just on principle, I’m going to tear that girl a new asshole.

  86. ATM on March 27, 2013 at 05:00

    Date ‘Rape’…
    Roses are red,
    Violets are blue,
    He better call,
    Or his life is through.

    Party ‘Rape’…
    Roses are red,
    Violets are blue,
    The slut gave us head
    And butt sex too

    Oh no! My reputation is trashed just like I wuzz!
    RAYYYYPE! HAAAALP!

    Real Rape…
    Roses are red,
    Violets are blue,
    I’ve got a knife,
    Get in the van.

  87. Richard Nikoley on March 27, 2013 at 06:38

    ATM:

    Data point.

    Gravely Wounded Soldier Asks Hero Medic to Show Him Her Boobs In Lieu of Morphine

    http://gawker.com/5992343/gravely-wounded-soldier-asks-hero-medic-to-show-him-her-boobs-in-lieu-of-morphine

    Check out the apologetic comments. Or, one’s like this:

    “Good on her. I’da left him there. One less sexist.”

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