For my next installment on Resistant Starch, the following post documents an N=2 (two study subjects) collaboration to record blood glucose readings in different states of dieting, with and without RS. The following was assembled by regular commenter Marie (a real life scientist in her day job) and ‘Tatertot Tim’, the guy who brought RS to Free the Animal months ago and has probably read more of the studies going back 30 years than anyone currently living on the planet.
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After reading the information you posted from Tim and yourself on resistant starch, I wanted to verify personally whether my father could take it so that he could get the immunological and gut-healing effects of RS, while staying in ketosis. He is on a severe ketogenic diet for cancer and must remain continually in ketosis.
At that point, Tim and I started to collaborate, looking at a second possibility raised by the literature, that of “blunting” of the Blood Glucose (BG) rise by resistant starch when taken together or before a high-glycemic food. A large (300 gram or 2/3 pound) cooked potato is a good test for this blunting effect, as it normally gives a large rise in BG when eaten without any added resistant starch.
These slides of graphical comparisons tell our story.
1. For tolerance of ketosis to RS/PS, the results are unequivocal. There is NO rise in BG when taking PS alone or with a ketogenic meal. Ketostix also confirm that ketosis is not disturbed.
2. For RS/PS blunting effect when taken together with hi-glycemic food, there is clearly a blunting effect for both Tim and myself, while you can see from my additional results that the degree of that effect depends on the immediate diet history and the long-term use of RS.
(It should be noted that I’m a healthy female in my mid-40‘s with no history of metabolic disease nor obesity and I respond very quickly to diet changes. Tim is a currently healthy male in his mid 40s with a history of significant metabolic issues that have been conquered for many years now. So between us, we span quite a range of backgrounds.)
The strongest blunting effect is under what may be considered ‘normal’ eating conditions for most people; that is, not in ketosis and not prolonged fasting or intermittent fasting. Under such normal conditions, there is only a very small rise in BG (~ 28 points) for me when eating a cooked potato after drinking 4 tablespoon of potato starch stirred in water. Various timings of the PS in combination of the potato were tried, details in graphs. You see no blunting while in actual ketosis, but various levels of blunting effect in other states.
It’s not a surprise to see different responses to fasting as they depend on the length of the fast and state of glycogen stores previously. Long-enough fasting and/or continual ketosis cause a normal physiological insulin resistance which is temporary and reversible, not to be confused with the pathological kind in metabolic syndrome or diabetes.
3. There is also an apparent ‘second meal effect’ or long-term effect from simply taking 4 tablespoons of RS every day, which improves the blunting in a ‘normal’ metabolic state. When LC, in ketosis, or fasting regularly, the blunting was less pronounced or, to state it the opposite way, RS/PS does not afford the same dramatic results. What that means metabolically over the long term is an open question.
OK, now for the version in pictures. Restarting the count.
1. ketosis is Not Disturbed By Ingesting Resistant Starch Alone.
Marie’s Results (click to open full size)
2. Resistant Starch Blunts Blood Glucose When NOT in ketosis. The blunting effect of PS is evident when compared to the Control of potato alone. The second control was done to check for any difference in BG response to potato alone after consuming PS daily for two months, but no additional supplementation with or before the meal. The third slide is with supplemental RS/PS.
Control – No RS
Daily RS Ingestion; No Supplemental RS With Meal
Daily RS Ingestion + Supplemental RS Before Meal
Here’s a single-graph comparison of the blunting effects when resistant starch in the form of unmodified potato starch is taken an hour prior. This is under normal dietary conditions, not ketosis or significant fasting.
Big Blunting
3. Blunting Effect of Potato Starch Under Various Immediate Diet Histories.
Various Dietary Conditions (click for full size)
Ketosis and Ketosis + Fasting (click for full size)
4. Blunting Effect of RS/PS In ketosis; After 2 + Months of Daily RS/PS.
Longer Term RS Blunting While in Ketosis
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There you have it. Lots of data. For me, it all adds up to the same thing: Resistant Starch is absolutely NOT going to hurt you ever, even if diabetic. If you are in ketosis or fast regularly, the results are not as profound but there appears to be a subtile benefit over time. If you eat a normal, moderate carb diet (150-200g daily) the results are profound, both for daily ingestion and supplemental ingestion with each starchy meal. If you eat SAD and just can’t stop, then it’s probably most important to be supplementing RS daily.
For those who wish to verify data integrity or otherwise play with yourselves, here’s the data files for download (.numbers) (.xls).
Supplementing RS is too easy. You can use Potato Starch
, Tapioca Starch
and/or and even, Plantain Flour
. Some of us are doing blends of all three, now. There’s even mung bean flour and probably others that will come to light as more and more people keep jumping on our little bandwagon and giving a try for themselves.
Later, I’ll do a post with a list of all RS posts with summaries to date.
a little frustrated with RS as the gas is so bad
I was doing 3 tbs a day, but yikes, so painful!
perhaps I cut it to 1-2 tbs and introduce some carbs into my evening meal?
any suggestions from the clan in terms of fatloss?
Great work.
Is this data based on rounded tbls or flat tbls of PS? Given the consistency of PS, rounded tbls are likely twice the amount as a flat measurement.
Sorry if I’m slicing the bologna too thin here….
@golooraam:
Farts are funny. But, yea, go down to 1-2T, then up it. Go days with zero as well, let things settle out. There’s trillions of bacteria.
no worries – I slice the bologna waaay too thin sometimes
I usually go a flat tablespoon
I spent a week or so in Maui last week and went RS free after my wife almost kicked me out of bed the first night for being a stinky zepelin
will resume this week if I toss in taters to my evening meal
it appears as though based on this blog post that if one is going to use this, it’s best to use with some good clean carbs
btw, does Richard’s pizza recipe count as clean carbs? :)
it looked so delish
Got on the RS bandwagon some months ago at the same time as many of you here and have continued to take 3-4 tbs six days a week. My diet (and exercise) has remained unchanged other than the addition of mostly PS with the occasional dose of plantain flour. I am now leaner. That is the only truly objective observation I can share. However, it *seems* that as the months roll by I am satiated with less food than before and the overwhelming desire I would have on the weekends for some fructose-containing dessert has dwindled to just a shadow of its former self.
@Golorooraam:
Please tell me you did the sunrise bike ride 40 miles down Haleakala with 200 yards of peddling (one of my best memories ever).
Has anyone noticed foods that when consumed with RS produce tremendous farts while other foods produce none at all? Bananas + RS = trouble. Cooked potato + RS = no gas at all.
Hi Richard!
Sad to say, i loathe bike riders (actually that’s not true I love you and have a few great friends who are avid cyclists I guess I ‘m just irritated at some of my lib SF bay area friends who are preachy cyclists, rant over)
so all jesting aside, no we didn’t do Haleakala this time, I didn’t know one could bike ride down it – I guess I’ll put it down for next time, I could use the biking as I don’t like my chicken calves
I actually watched your onion and mushroom omelette video about 3 times and made omelettes each morning while sipping coffee with coconut cream
I kept laughing to myself when you made fun of people whining about unevenly cut onions and mushrooms….
I did manage to get some perfectly ripe sweet corn which I started to add to my omelettes, wow, just wow – one of the best eats I have made in a while
yes Richard – some of us even take your blog with us on vacation :)
Interesting N1s !!
@EF – When doing these experiments, 4TBS was exactly a packed 1/4 cup. In normal life, 4TBS could be in reality 3 -6 packed TBS’, lol, I don’t really measure that carefully.
Another great post Richard regarding RS.
I’m wondering if it’s best to take the 4TBS in one dose, or spread out over the day in two 2 TBS doses?
Looking forward to the next post.
Thanks for this health changing info.
Just another N=1 report. Two weeks of 2 T twice per day (1/8 cup measuring spoon), usually with water, but sometimes to thicken sauce (after cooling to about 120-130 F). Gas. Annoying, but not painful; has become less frequent.
No apparent change in fat or weight. I was hoping for a lucky stall-breaking effect, but not yet.
Good to know that it doesn’t obviously cause me problems. Not convinced that I should continue. That’s the problem with invisible beneficial effects, I suppose.
About to travel in Europe for 7 weeks, and not sure where I’ll be able to find the stuff, so now I get to see what happens when I now go without.
5 months into resistant starch. The winds have subsided, as I have been experimenting constantly with dosage & timing. Some days I have none, some I have 2 tbsp, most I have 4 tbsp. Am now using a mix of PS & tapioca, & will soon add in some plantain. I drink it all down with plain old water in the evening (1 tbsp before dinner & 1 tbsp an hour before bedtime. I have 2 tbsp every morning with my morning smoothie. The key for me is constantly mixing it up (dosage & type of RS). My TMI is my predominate barometer for how things are going… All I can say is that it is the EXACT same thing every morning. Windage is now down to the occasional light breeze. Another effect is that I’m now down to two meals/day… I have absolutely no need or desire to eat lunch. My daily calorie consumption is down by close to 1000 (close to 3000/day total). My weight is exactly the same when I started & I certainly don’t need to lose any! Looks like I’ll keep it up using PS, tapioca & plantain to achieve bacterial diversity.
Does anyone know how much RS that winter squash has? I used to eat quite a lot of butternut squash, and felt it was somehow different than other starchy foods. Any data on this?
Hi!
I’be keen using PS for about 3 weeks, but the fartage still hasn’t subsided.. if anything it’ worse. Can any of you guys who’s been getting resistant starch for a
long time say when they noticed a reduction in gas?
You say that potatoes have more resistant starch when it’s cold. Shouldn’t we be measuring the RS content when the potatoes are at body temperature? By the time they get to your stomach or at the very least your small intestines won’t they be at body temperature?
It’s not that the potato is cold, its that it has been cooked, then cooled. You don’t have to eat it cold. The chemical change happens after cooking and then cooling, beyond that, I believe you can eat the potato at any temperature you desire, but someone correct me, if I am mistaken.
@Jerry – I don’t think squash has much RS in it at all, but I’ve never seen it called out by name in a study, either. If you look at the veggie section https://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf squash-like foods such as pumpkin and gourds have under 1g of RS per 100g, so I would assume winter squash would be the same low percentage. I could be wrong, though, if anyone finds different, please tell us!
@Eric – I think for me it was about 3-4 weeks. I started out with 4TBS/day, I usually recommend people start out with 1TBS/day and up it after a week. The studies indicate it should take 3-4 weeks for all the major changes in gut microbe communities to happen. If you are missing key microbes, it may never happen. If you find discomfort at higher amounts, back off to 1TBS/day and take it with yogurt, kefir, or alongside sauerkraut or a probiotic supplement of some sort.
@JB Rainsberger – I feel your sentiments exactly. The cool thing about RS is you can see some nearly immediate changes in gut flora as evidenced by better bowel movements and gas…since this is a gut microbe thing, that is where you should see it first. Almost as immediate are the changes in BG regulation if you look for such things. Many report better sleep right away. A bit more digging should show changes for the better in trigs and cholesterol. The hidden benefits are hard to see, but they are there: better gut microbes mean improved uptake of vitamins and minerals as well as increased production of gut-made vitamins (k2 for one) and neurotransmitters (like serotonin) and chelation/elimination of heavy metals (Thanks Dr. BG for that one!).
If you could bioposy as segment of your large intestine after a month or so of taking supplemental potato starch (I don’t recommend it), you would see what they see when they look at pig’s intestines who have been fed raw potato starch in experiments like this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17936196
“RPS (raw potato starch)-fed pigs had reduced apoptosis in the crypts, lamina propria and lymphoid nodules in the colon, and ileal Peyer’s patches. Fermentation of RPS reduced indices associated with damage to epithelial cells, such as crypt cell proliferation and magnesium excretion, whereas mucin sulfuration was increased, which promotes epithelial protection. The numbers of intraepithelial T cells and of blood leukocytes, neutrophils, and lymphocytes, mainly T-helper lymphocytes, were reduced in RPS pigs.
CONCLUSION: Long-term intake of RPS induces pronounced changes in the colonic environment, reduces damage to colonocytes, and improves mucosal integrity, reducing colonic and systemic immune reactivity, for which health benefits in inflammatory conditions are likely to be associated.”
@tatertot and @jb rainsberger, I concur! Hang in there, JB, with all the invisible changes happening to you the outward ones will tag along. I wouldn’t give up on RS so quickly. Even if you didn’t get the Charles Atlas bod, at least you’re doing your part to keep yourself healthy and out of the cancer ward. Enjoy Europe.
Oh, and another thing on dosing and timing…
I personally feel that if you are taking potato starch as a supplement, it may be best to take it all at once. RS gets fermented very fast once it hits the large intestine, so taking a small dose several times a day means it is all fermented in the first (proximal, ascending) part of the large intestine. Taking a bigger bolus dose of 20-40g (2-4TBS) all at once means it will overwhelm the proximal end and force fermentation in the transverse and descending parts (distal end) of the colon.
Also, there is a study http://jn.nutrition.org/content/129/11/2081.full (rats anyway) that shows when taking an RS supplement alongside another fermenting fiber, psyllium in this case, it shifts the fermentation sites even further.
Taking small doses throughout the day probably isn’t a waste of time, but if you are looking for a reason to take it all at once, this is probably it. Studies show that almost no human can ferment over 50g at one time, but 10g is fermented very fast. So, somewhere between 20-40g is probably the right amount to take to flood your intestine with RS and make it do it’s job and get strong in return.
Tatertot, maybe there is another effect of taking RS several x day : the soluble fiber binds to the bile and avoid reabsorbing it. Useful when detoxing. I just take some red lentils alone, half hour before meals. I don’t know what will be the results as I seem to have a problem with RS since ever!
Tater, do you think 2 tbsp twice a day is a happy medium, as opposed to taking all 4 in the morning? Taking 4 at once is rather extreme for me. Interesting info about smaller doses.
@Ron – There is no right answer. I think 2×2 is a good, and who knows, maybe even preferable.
2TBS is about 18g of RS. That is more than 3 times the US average of RS intake. I think even taking 1TBS a day is great as that more than doubles most people’s intake.
Possibly taking it in a 2×2 fashion as you suggest is really good as it will get a good sized flood of RS into the intestines and cause fermentation twice in one day. Another bonus of RS is that it brings other microbes along with it–the probiotics in any yogurt, kefir, or fermented veggies you eat, for instance. So if your 2X2 also includes a fermented food or drink, that’s really good.
I think one reason that just eating lots of RS rich foods throughout the day doesn’t seem to have the same effect as taking RS as a raw starch supplement is that when you eat it as food, it trickles in–a green banana for breakfast, potato salad at lunch, cold rice and beans with dinner. Plus it comes through slower when eaten with other foods–so it just gets burned up as soon as it hits the large intestine–kind of like throwing handfuls of sawdust on a fire–you should be throwing logs on there if you really want it to burn!
4 T Unmodified PS daily on PSMF
I am a little jealous that I had zero farts as I had meetings with fellow execs that I am not too fond of and was hoping for a round of SBD’s.
I have been sleeping great but I am noticeably more groggy in the morning.
Took 4 T before a cheat meal and felt great for two days after – felt leaner.
After the cheat, I am actually up a few pounds but could just be water weight.
The past several days, I have felt bloated and the scale is inching upwards.
Going to keep going. I would like to hear from others who have lost weight taking 4T of PS.
“won’t they be at body temperature”
Rob gets the award for most ignorant question asked in thousands of comments on a dozen posts.
No mercy.
“and was hoping for a round of SBD’s.”
Ok, that’s it. Too many people are figuring out my schtick.
Fuck the scale. This is long term appetite and hunger regulation.
Wow, all really interesting comments. Just got off work, wading in here… :)
golooram,
yes, by all means, as Richard and tatertot said, start small (1-2tbsp) and increase as you get adjusted. It can take some weeks for the good bugs to proliferate with RS, until they crowd out other bugs that can’t use RS as efficiently (which give you gas). How much time and how much gas you get at first will depend on each person’s microbiome composition.
However, are you taking any probiotics at the same time? If you get a lot of noxious gas, taking yogurt or some other fermented food might help you populate the gut sooner with good bugs. In fact, there seems to be a synergistic effect, so one suggestion is to take RS at the same time as your probiotic of choice – the RS may help the good bugs get all the way to the colon.
Kayumochi,
I’ve noticed a carb-type effect too for gas.
I had NO issues with gas when doing this at first, when the main carb was cooked potato, but a couple of months later when I tried some sugars, there was a small effect. This effect is only if I take it at roughly the same time as the sugar (honey, chocolate ice cream), not if I took RS in the morning, say, and had dessert that night.
The sugars are the only ones that bother me if approx.concurrent with RS, any ‘whole’ starches seem to be fine for me (potato, rice, beans) even if RS is taken at the same time.
Combining your banana info with my sugar info, it’s suddenly possible that the fructose in the sugar is the key.
Can you think back to any other ‘loud’ combinations you’ve noticed and see if fructose was involved? Even one piece of evidence with a starch or another ‘sugar’ (lactose, say?) would falsify that idea quickly :)
Meanwhile, I suspect that whether or not someone has been eating wheat (and how recently) will also affect the gut biome recomposition, since wheat has its own effects on the gut.
I can’t eat wheat, so have no personal info on that with RS.
Eric,
if no change at all after 3 weeks, you’re possibly missing some good bugs. I concur with Tatertot, you may need some fermented foods or probiotic capsules.
Also, take them if you can at the same time as RS, there’s a possible synergistic effect that has the RS protecting the probiotics, helping more of them reach the colon. “Possible”, so it’s not proven, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt to take concurrently in case you can maximize your chances and speed along good changes.
A lot of people have a damaged gut biome for many reasons, but a common reason is antibiotics – and this is well known medically. I remember two decades ago my Canadian doctors always telling me to eat yogurt when they prescribed antibiotics. Today, the doctors in Greece do this as a matter of course, they even prescribe the capsules to make the point. I’ve heard second hand that the same happens in Italy and France. In the States however, they ignore this antibiotic effect even though it’s so obvious immediately: many people get diarrhea or gastrointestinal upset with antibiotics.
Cathy,
“… at least you’re doing your part to keep yourself healthy and out of the cancer ward” – succinctly perfect! :)
Ron,
great on the ‘mixing it up’! Meanwhile, did I understand correctly that your calories are now Less by 1000/day, but your weight has stayed the same?
Marie – Yes, you read that correctly… my weight is holding steady. I’m 6’/~148#, on a small frame. Been strict “paleo” for over 3 yrs & run uphill sprint intervals/bodyweight exercises 3 days/wk. I eat HF/moderate protein… not anal about carbs (I eat potatoes, rice, fruit, veggies). The RS simply has moderated my appetite, but no weight loss, which I sure as hell don’t want! If anything, body composition is a little better. Also, my workout stamina/performance has improved. Can’t explain it.
Ron,
o.k, I can see why you don’t want to lose any weight at 148lbs for 6feet.
By any chance, did you try to gain muscle/weight before the RS and were not able to while eating 4000Cal/day?
Because at that caloric intake, unless you were in competition training to the tune of half a marathon/day (1200 kCal expenditure, on average), there’s a mismatch between weight and calories that may be the clue to what’s happening now. For your weight and the activity level you’ve indicated, I’d say 3000Cal/day is about right for maintenance. Even as low as 2600Cal. An improved microbiome would improve your digestion efficiency.
However, if I may ask, how old are you? My brother up until 25-26years old could eat a horse and not gain weight. Really, a sight to behold. Lots of young men are like that. In which case I take back the mismatch idea and agree, this is a mystery :)
Marie – I’m 55 & still have a very healthy metabolism. When I started “paleo,” I weighed about 165… lost about 25# in about 3 months & gained almost 10# of it back over the next couple of months as I settled into a regimen. Didn’t really try to gain much muscle, as I don’t like to lift weights, but I am significantly stronger now than I was due to effective body-weight exercises (handstand pushups, etc.). If I cut out the RS, I bet I could add those 1000 calories back & still maintain weight. It’s a mystery to me, but perhaps the sprint intervals have much to do with it. I run them as hard as I can, at a very fast pace on a very steep 100 yd. hill. Some say they enable the body to burn fat for hours.
Ron, that’s just damn impressive.
O.k., the HIIT may explain why you could burn 4000cal/day without gaining weight, but there’s still no explanation as to why you can get by on 1000 less calories now (since you’ve been doing the same HIIT before and after RS).
So, try your bet why don’t you? Cut out RS tomorrow and increase you caloric consumption by 1000Cal/day. Do it just for a week and see if you gain weight?
I say just a week, because the gut biome won’t deteriorate that fast after you stop taking RS, so you’re Only not taking RS, ie. only changing one parameter (rather than the composite effects of not taking RS And changing your biome because of stopping RS, which would occur over a longer time).
If you do gain weight, it’s because your gut is more efficient now (so 1000Cal is too much now), due to your gut biome improving during the months you’ve been taking RS.
If you don’t gain weight, nothing is different efficiency-wise about your guts before and after the 5 month RS treatment and instead you’ve got something special happening with just RS ingestion (I can’t imagine what, but that’s why it’s interesting).
Of course, I’m only prompting you because I’m exceptionally curious (!) Being happy with what you’re doing is important and you may not want to rock that boat :)
I wonder what the effects of alcohol (spirits and dry wine – not beer) are on gut biome … I think I read somewhere that booze can kill off bacteria and you’d think that it would act like an antibiotic, but I don’t get any change in bowel / gut sensations after drinking (daily). Interesting topic.
Anyone with different experiences?
-Al
Salut!
Here is my own observations (not that many, I don’t measure things as I have no known BG issues, insulin resistance problems, etc):
– I do not supplement every day. It is rather random, and depends on what I ate (days with RS rich foods like green bananas, buckwheat or beans, etc, I don’t – while days when I am mostly carnivorous, I do). I always have full fat sheep yogurt (a staple, so I get probiotics as well). I usually supplement PS in the evening after dinner.
– sleep: same, I go to bed around 22h (+/- one hour), wake up at 3am, fall asleep right away until 6h30-7am. I don’t care about the waking up.
– dreams: very vivid but it is not different from usual, I always had vivid dreams. Maybe I have them more frequently though. I dreamed sort of semi-consciously a few nights back and could fly around … great stuff :)
– fartage: first days were horrible. My wife was upset … I stopped, increased RS rich foods, and resumed PS after a while -> barely any fartage. I think that was a better strategy, get your gut to adapt to real RS rich foods first, then supplement if you want.
– temperature: quite often, when I wake up in the middle of the night, I am a real oven, I am giving off a lot of heat! In fact, I would say I am a lot warmer than I used to be. It is a bit cold these days but I walk to work in T-shirt …
– poop: regular, as always. Maybe more volume.
I had some bad poop episodes but I think it was due to other gut disruptors (I had a lot of chocolate a while back, full of maltitol – I didn’t know … I avoid the shit now). I eat xylitol and erythritol every day, I have no issue with those. Lactose is also problematic. I cannot drink a glass of milk. I am OK with fermented dairy, I would survive without but I like those (yogurt, cheese).
The reason for my eating RS is that I am convinced that gut health is paramount to a lot of health aspects. I also include some in my home-made ice-creams, smoothies, etc, for the benefit of my kids.
Marie – Great idea for another N=1! As my schedule permits, I plan to do it. A week should be long enough to yield an interesting result.
This is no big surprise. Low carbohydrate/ketogenic diets induce insulin resistance and raise fasting blood glucose, so it seems very obvious that resistant starch would blunt blood sugar spikes better in people eating significant amounts of carbohydrate. Since higher carbohydrate diets promote insulin sensitivity, adding resistant starch would then also increase the blunting even further since your body processes sugars more efficiently as a higher-carber. A person in a LC/KT state is insulin resistant to begin with, so you’re dealing with less efficient “metabolic machinery.”
It’s awesome to see RS be beneficial to EVERYONE, but it’s no surprise the more efficient (i.e. higher carbohydrate) metabolism is going to see amplified effects.
Maybe Tatertot can contribute to the Resistant Starch Wiki discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resistant_starch
I’ve gone on and off the dialy PS since it was brought up here months ago. I can’t say that it suddenly let me loose weight and gain LBM, but it definitely helped some with my fasting blood glucose. Maybe knocked it down 15 points on average.
But better than that is that two years of (TMI ALERT! TMI ALERT!) highly varying bowel movements, I seem to be cured. By highly varying I mean sometimes complete loss of control. (Fortunately, always at home!) My mother started to experience the same problem at around my age (late 60’s) and the events weren’t always at home.
I presumed some months ago that it might be due to my Doxycyclin for Rosacea, so I was eating huge portins of yogurt and cultured buttermilk. Still variable.
Anyway, it does appear, repeat, appear that the PS has fed all the good little critters and my symptoms have essentially disappeared. No more “The Run to the Outhouse,” by Willy Makeit.
Well, to me the surprise was how dramatically the RS blunts the BG spike from a hi-g food in the ‘usual’ metabolic state and also the fact that it works At All in the highly insulin resistant state of fasting ketosis.
The exact mechanism by which the ingestion of RS helps BG control is unknown beyond the evidence that it is mediated by the SCFAs. There seem to be two effects though, a long term one which is likely related to the recomposition of the gut biome and/or an increased density of pancreatic beta cells stimulated by the SCFAs and an immediate one which is interesting on its own. In addition, they seem to work additively.
As for which is the more efficient metabolic state, well, energy-wise it’s absolutely Ketosis (your mitochondria produce by-products/garbage from glucose metabolism, whereas ketones are metabolized cleanly).
So ‘efficiency’ can be a misleading term here, though I understand you just mean the body is better at dealing with glucose when it’s in a state of glucose metabolism. Yes, of course.
That can just as easily have Overwhelmed any effect by the RS though, rather than apparently working synergistically with it. It’s the law of diminishing returns, the better something is, the harder it is to improve it – or in efficiency terms, the more efficient it is, the smaller are the improvements you can make.
Which brings me back to the opening line : the surprise is how dramatically well RS works immediately in a ‘normal’ diet and that it even works at all when someone is insulin resistant if they’ve been taking it for some weeks/months.
Above comment was in answer to ChocoTaco.
Ron, way to go! :)
Looking forward to learning what happens.
Al- Interesting question on alcohol. First off, I don’t know how much alcohol would even get to your lower intestine, seeing as most of it get’s absorbed into the bloodstream. But some probably does. I know from personal experience that a big night drinking will leave you very hungry later in the night, and well into the next day. That could be due to a number of reasons, but a dramatic shift in gut flora could be among them. I read in about a mouse experiment where the mice were raised completely sterile since birth. They were able to live, but they looked weird, needed constant supplementation of B and K vitamins, and also needed about 1/3 more food than normal mice. Wondering… has anybody experienced increased hunger while taking antibiotics (or just after completing them)?
Has anyone ever looked into health or disease correlated to RS consumption in existing populations? I’m curious if any populations stand out with higher RS consumption and if anything interesting health-wise stands out among those populations.
My N=1.
I tried potato starch back in April. Took 1-2 T in the evening and experienced a lot of gas and bloating. Discontinued after a few days.
For 3 months starting in May, I was on a complicated herbal regimen to get rid of h. pylori. Retested in mid-August and was rid of the bug. Totally forgot about resistant starch.
Saw one of tatetot’s postings elsewhere recently and decided to restart potato starch last week. First day – 1 heaping T at night. No gas or bloating. Upped it to 1 heaping T twice a day, again no problem. Within a week I was at 1 heaping T before each of 3 meals, again no gas & no bloating.
I attribute my better experience this time around to a much improved gut biome. Thanks to the above info, I’m going to switch to 2 T twice a day and see how that goes.
What would you guess would happen if you had also added bean consumption with your experiment?
Linda,
that’s pretty clear-cut info, thanks for sharing.
You could of course have improved that biome from the herbal regimen (any new plant matter will affect it) but also, the presence of helicobacter is known to cause gas with certain foods.
Either way, your result illustrates beautifully just how much the starting bacterial composition anywhere in our digestive system can affect gas with RS (or any fermentable fiber, but its hard to get much fermentable fibers from regular foods so may not see it much).
Some people with quite bad gas at the start may have bacterial growth in yet another location, the small intestine (SIBO).
I don’t get gas with it either and never did, except on the rare chance that I eat actual sugar near the time of the RS consumption. There’s another person on this site who has also indicated gas with only limited foods combined with RS. What type of diet do you follow in those three meals you mentioned?
Marie, Tatertot
Mabe it works only for the ones who has low FBG, but not for the ones with high FBG.
I’ve been trying Tapioca Starch and Potato Starch, however I don’t like drinking it so I’ve been experimenting with other ways to get the starch in. I tried cold rice pudding (with potato starch mixed in) one evening and it threw my blood sugar control off for most of the next day. I will try this again earlier in the day at some point as I probably ate it too close to going to bed.
I’ve added it to mashed avocado/salsa and eaten that with dried green plantain chips.
My favourite is dessert though (this way I remember to eat it more often):
Cinnamon Tapicoa Truffles – heat some coconut mana (coconut butter) slightly just to get it runny but not hot. Mix in your starch of choice, I’ve been using tapioca as I find it’s smoother than potato, some cinnamon, vanilla and a small pinch of salt. It is thick and you can roll it into round balls and dust with cinnamon or coat in nuts, coconut, etc.
Ginger Snap Tapioca Truffles – same as above (coconut manna, starch of choice) with molasses, ginger, cinnamon and a small pinch of salt.
You could also do chocolate truffles – I’m abstaining from chocolate but I did fall off the wagon tonight and made:
Elvis Special RS Pudding
Mash up some banana, add some almond butter, RS of choice (I used potato starch), some cocoa powder and a bit of salt. This is so good and I found I could add a bunch of starch to it – I added 2 tbsp potato starch but could have easily added more, I’m not at the point yet where I feel I should consume more than 2 tbsp at at time.
I’m going to start adding it to my kids’ smoothies, as someone else noted and I totally want to make ice cream with it (recently saw an olive oil ice cream recipe that I am intrigued by).
My n=1 is for the morning fasting blood sugar control (not weight loss) and I do notice a drop on days following RS consumption for the most part, but not 100% of the time. I find I need to vary the RS source, a few days of tapioca truffles and my am fasting number heads back up but then a meal with black beans (only 1/2 cup or so needed) knocks it back down.
Chris Kresser talked about RS and specifically mentioned this blog in his Oct 9 podcast, called RHR: Fukushima Radiation, Cavities, and Liver Disease.
I’m interested in the use of RS for chelation/elimination of heavy metals – is there a post about this you can point me to for more information?
Tapioca starch is not rich in RS and is actually straight carbs.. no wonder your blood sugar is spiking!
Michelle, yummy looking recipes, I really like those uses of coconut butter, it’s one of my favorites unrefined so I the aroma of coconut! Thanks for sharing :)
Meanwhile, are you using the PS to help you handle these desserts or is that just your ‘delivery’ system so you don’t feel it? I’d hate to see you eating sweetened desserts every day just in order to get your PS!
As for FBG, from what others have been reporting, it should drop with time, which makes sense, it takes time to get the microbiome rebalanced in favor of the good bugs. There’s both a long term and an immediate effect so you may also be able to handle better specific things like rice.
How long have you been taking the RS daily?
Also, why do you monitor FBG, do you happen to be diabetic/prediabetic (to put the N=1 in context, since metabolic state/diet makes a difference to how one responds to RS at first).
Michelle – I have a fairly repetitive diet. Breakfast is sardines with avocado or eggs, veggies (mostly crucifers), berries and a little bit of cold potatoes, topped wtih olive oil. Lunch is homemade broth with some protein (sausage, shrimp), veggies and a small apple. Dinner is fish, beef, or pork with the usual veggies and a couple ounces of sweet potatoes and olive oil. Norcal margarita with dinner once a week.
Marie, my RS intake has been inconsistent and the desserts are just a way to try to remember and get a bunch of RS in at one time. I was diagnosed with impaired blood sugar a few years ago. Type 2 runs in my family so I asked for a BG monitor script and determined to fight it with food. My daytime levels seem OK but my morning fasting levels are often high (110-120) so the RS posts have been of real interest to possibly lower them.
Some days I get very good results (88 yesterday), other days not so much (110 this morning) but it’s not an experiment I can draw any real conclusions from until I get consistent in my intake. I’ve been paleo for 2 years now with a focus on protein/non-starchy veggies/good fats/some fruit/nut&seeds. I don’t know if I’m in ketosis as I’ve never had the sticks. I’ve been trying to add more carbs per Jaminet but that too has been inconsistent in implementation and may be tweaking too many variables at once.
My PS tonight was in a glass of water. I’ll try to take it consistently and report back in a few weeks.
Thank you for your contribution to the RS experiment – the information you, Tatertot and Richard are gathering and disseminating is very interesting and much appreciated.
Yes, very interesting and appreciated. I am about to introduce RS to the diet of my mother who has been a Type 2 diabetic for twenty years. This should be interesting. I did not have too many issues with flatulence (sorry, I am a girl, this is what we call it), but my brother did – flatulence on par or exceeding what he experienced when trying to eat texturized vegetable protein (off the charts flatulence) or sugar alcohols – the same. If I recall the explanation – its because the sugar alcohols don’t digest….um, the fact that they produce such obnoxious gas suggests to me that something is digesting them.
Oops, that note was supposed to be addressed to Marie, not Michelle…
For what it’s worth, I don’t get gas with 3 Tbsp of RS per day — usually 1 Tbsp per meal. And I’ve been taking it pretty regularly for about 1.5 months. I generally don’t consume a lot of fructose, as I’m not much of a fruit eater. I regularly eat tomatoes (maybe 2 or 3 per week), sweet potatoes (3 or 4 per week) and bananas (4-5 per week), and ketchup (4-5 Tbsp per week). I’m probably forgetting something, but I think that’s about it in the fructose department for me. I’ll keep you posted if I ever trigger gas somehow.
Linda, thanks :)
Your diet doesn’t surprise me, we both don’t suffer TMI with the RS and we both eat very moderate ‘whole’ carbs (some starches and occasional fruits), also with no wheat, from the looks of it.
If you happen to take RS one day close to eating a sugary treat (ever indulge in ice-cream or something like that?) then if you could please let me know if you get some, well, loud (!) effect, I’d appreciate it. Or Don’t get effect actually, that will be just as useful info.
Marie, I indulge only rarely but did last Saturday (a large piece of gluten free but very sweet cake) but it was about 2 hours after I had a big tablespoon of potato starch pre-lunch. No problems. If I fall off the wagon again, I’ll try the experiment (assuming I can remember…).
Michelle, thanks, for my part I had a personal reason to start with, but I find this stuff is very interesting and it then becomes fun to discuss/compare with others’ experiences.
From what I’ve seen of metabolic syndrome or prediabetic friends and family (these are the closest, I figure, to your situation) that elevated blood sugar indeed is best treated with diet, though that’s the hardest at first – I salute you!
From personal experience on fasting, ketosis and old basic biochem education, I’d say the LC approach all by itself can confound your attempts to lower your morning FBG (you may have seen this is on several forums as well, LC tends to raise FBG, by 10-20 points). You needn’t be in ketosis for that to happen to some degree, just low carb (under 100gms). VLC meanwhile, (under 50gms or so,) is guaranteed to put you in ketosis for most of the day and that gives the highest morning FBG elevation.
I don’t know that RS can combat that , but you’re right, won’t know until the carb consumption stabilizes, especially regarding the Kind of carbs (the sweeter desserts can be confounders).
Definitely RS will help postprandially, so throughout the day, with any boluses of good carbs (per Jaminet) and if you do get to moderate levels, oh say 120-150gms, ahem, I can sure recommend that ! :)
I’ve been eating something similar to PHD most of my life, without much rice but derived from my traditional background including structured fasts. A1C has always been around 4.6% and FBG is usually 80-85 (when I’m not doing some experiment!). Several direct family members who ‘moved west’ did develop diabetes later in life, so I’m not immune to this genetically, and several years ago when I drifted in diet towards SAD, I gained 20-25lbs and all those numbers climbed. Fixed that in a hurry!
Remained interested in versions of paleo, ancestral, or moderate carb/wheat-free diets ever since, so I’ll be really looking forward to what you share with everyone here after the regular RS consumption for a few weeks.
Linda and DuckDodgers, hmm, it may be just me. I do eat that ice-cream regularly ‘once a month’, so if I’ve got a bit extra of the unpleasant bugs because of it, that may explain the sugar connection. It could also be dairy sugar specifically, but another commenter with “no TMI, except a couple of foods” noted bananas were a problem for him. So I thought maybe fructose.
Linda, Yes, please do chime in next time you indulge if you remember to take RS. I’ll keep an eye out here.
DuckDodgers, it’ll be interesting if something does trigger it in one of the few people with no TMI.
Meanwhile, back to out other googling discussion, you wanna look up the characters in the show NCIS, unless you’ve watched this, as I obviously once did and too much!. Your knowledgeability + the moniker keep reminding me of one of those characters and man, it’s all I can do not to slip up and use the cutesy abbreviation of that name :)
MsMcGillicuddy, thanks and Wow, I hope you can pop in here and say what happens when you introduce it to someone that’s been T2 for so long, “this should be interesting” is an understatement!
Also, like you, I have the same idea about sugar alcohols….in many people they seem to feed Something and it either ain’t nice, or perhaps their fermentation reaction produces those noxious fumes no matter which gut bugs are feeding!
With RS though, it’s about what unpleasant critters had grown earlier, such that they crowded-out the good ones which ferment RS completely. That’s why with use, the flatulence improves a lot, due to more good bugs, biome recomposition.
Is he sticking to the RS/going to wait it out or did he have to give up? If he really would like to do it but is too uncomfortable, it often helps to start with a small dose and build gradually.
Yeah, ‘flatulence’ is a better word, but something ‘best’ is on the tip of my tongue and frustrating me….if I could just remember my nana’s saying – kinda like we “glow”, while men “perspire” and horses “sweat” ! :)
La Frite, “…barely any fartage. I think that was a better strategy, get your gut to adapt to real RS rich foods first, then supplement if you want”. Interesting observation/suggestion, it makes sense maybe also from the ‘quantity’ perspective, that is, one is likely getting less of it in those foods at first, so good bugs get a chance to start building up.
“The reason for my eating RS is that I am convinced that gut health is paramount to a lot of health aspects. I also include some in my home-made ice-creams, smoothies, etc, for the benefit of my kids.”
– yes! Wisdom, elle est française n’est pas? ;)
Yes, I will be sure to report back. My mom is skeptical, but willing to try. She gets two different forms of advice for Type 2 – one line from her physician and one line from her dentist LOL. Her doctor prescribes drugs. Her dentist prescribes exercise. :)
My brother is going to stay with it.
I need to go back and find Tim’s post on why we should consume our daily RS in one dose, versus several.
By the way, my mom lives in upstate NY too- where they pray for no snow before Halloween.
Best to you, MsM.
With regard to converted rice is it a concern that most of that comes for the part of the country
Where the would be arsenic in the soil?
FROM the part of the country where THERE would be arsenic in the soil?
OK, since you clarified that, I’ll answer…
Yes, it does concern me. To allay these fears, I don’t eat rice every day–just a couple times a week, and also I tell myself that a healthy gut microbiome is credited with the ability to remove toxins (heavy metals, chemicals) from the body.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3426676/
“The food and water we consume are often contaminated with a range of chemicals and heavy metals, such as lead, cadmium, arsenic, chromium, and mercury, that are associated with numerous diseases. ..Lactobacilli and potentially other bacterial types used in the food industry or as probiotics are ideal organisms to use as an adjunct tool to prevent/reduce heavy-metal toxicity and prevent absorption of metals into the human body. Lactobacilli have a strong track record of safe application in the food industry and as probiotics, and they have the ability to bind and sequester metals. The use of lactobacilli as a tool to reduce the burden of metal exposure is advantageous, as it can be applied almost immediately; there is no requirement for expensive technology or infrastructure setup, as fermentation capability is either already available or easily set up.”
MsM, Your mom’s doc and dentist are like Frick and Frack, good grief!
Meanwhile, yeah, no snow sure would be nice. Though no huge winds is latest concern -yesterday turned most people’s front yards into orange and black messes and decapitated/dismembered witches and skeletons – well, at least That’s within the theme :)
As for taking bolus vs.spreading out the RS during the day, maybe bolus is better because some RS gets chance to get all the way to the furthest reaches of the lower gut (the idea is that smaller doses feed the bacteria at the beginning of the colon and may not get far into it).
However, if there’s a lot of TMI at the beginning, it’s fine to start small and build up quantity as the gut biome adjusts.
Basically that may (or may not) drag out in time the TMI effects, but because they are milder, they are tolerable.
Also, nothing wrong with experimenting with this – though there seem to be three major categories, or ‘enterotypes’, in humans across the globe, there’s still a hack of a lot of variety possible among 100 trillion bugs from person to person :).
Thanks for answering Tater. That gives me more reason for me to keep feeding those critters. But for me at this point it is only going to be from food. And since I really like fried rice I will use that for my rice made and use cooled basmati.
Early on I did take the PS in water or yogurt and immediately had better sleep and improved TMI function, which had not been too bad before. But it did nothing for my blood sugar. Then, after about five days the sleep went south and the TMI got out of control. That is to say that even though they were perfect on a poop chart, it was happening too often, there was mild cramping. And it seemed to affect my brain and mood function for the worse.
My blood sugar issue was similar to yours . Although it was never as high as yours initially and I only started paying attention to it after going VLC. That was when the doc pointed out that it was slightly above 100 on the test he ran. So I got a meter and checking it regularly and going even going lower carb to try and fix it, but of course it went up a bit. Had no clue about the peripheral BG effect at that time. The average at that point was about 112. I really wanted to get it into the 90s at least , but it never did, because I kept going lower carb!!! I even tried Metformin for a month. It lowered it about two points and I felt exhausted and couldn’t think. Eventually I tried PHD and after a bit my average was 102. That was when I tried the potato starch. But , as I said, no success in getting it below 100 . I figured , I am old – 70 – so all things considered that is not too bad and accepted it.
But recently, with only casual usage of cold rice and potatoes, I am seeing some fasting numbers in the 90s. So I am going to get organized and along with the fried rice, eat my potatoes roasted and cooled instead of steamed and cooled, and be sure to have some of the other things on your most helpful list everyday. I will track my BG and see if the food will make a consistent difference for me.
Am also going to give beans a try. It has been years since I ate them. It will be interesting to see if they cause me pain the way grains do. I wonder if refried beans increase the RS the way fried rice does?
Thanks to you and Richard and Marie for all this great information. It is exciting!
Ellen, my understanding (and it may be wrong) is that most of the arsenic in rice is found in brown rice that is grown in soil that was previously used to grow cotton. Apparently rice — particularly the bran — readily absorbs arsenic from soil where chemical-heavy cotton once grew. So, if you eat brown rice from the Carolinas, that would be quite bad. But, if you eat white rice from California, it’s probably fine.
For what it’s worth, some of the finest Japanese white Premium Rice comes from California — and many Japanese tend to eat it at least twice a day.
Thanks Duck,
I have been eating white rice from California for quite a while now for exactly those reasons. I was asking about the converted rice because it seems to me that comes from the places in the country where they did grow cotton. But I may be wrong about that. Perhaps some of it does come from CA. Will check labels next time I get to a supermarket (which is not often)
There is a term in Macrobiotic circles called “rice chest” and it isn’t pretty to look it. It afflicts mostly men who eat large quantities of organic brown rice. Think Auschwitz. I know a man who makes dog food for his hound and includes a fair amount of brown rice in it he says. He complains the dog can’t gain weight – I have seen this dog and his ribs are showing in spite of his “healthy diet.” The dog also has runny stools. The man just can’t figure it out. I keep my mouth shut.
Speaking of dog food. :) I feed my dog a biologically appropriate raw (meat) diet. She has a beautiful coat, beautiful white teeth, and appears to be in excellent health. Dogs are carnivores, of course. But, I can’t figure out why she begs for my safe starch scraps like nobody’s business. She practically cries and drools when I eat rice, sweet potatoes or potatoes. Wild dogs are fierce pack hunters, so I wouldn’t expect them to be digging up wild tubers for food. And yet, the intense begging and drooling for starch is very weird. I guess they just like the taste.
Maybe someone can help me. I think I have a bad biome. I have been gluten free and focused on healthy animal proteins and fats including coco oil for three years. I am quite overweight because I am a chocolate junkie. I tried the RS about 4 months ago, starting with 1 tbsp in the AM and one at night, going up to 2 and 2. After a few weeks, my TMI became late at night, first thing in the morning diarrhea. So I attributed it to the RS and stopped. The D lasted for about 3 more weeks, then finally became more normal. Because it still lasted, I ended up concluding that the D was from some other reason.
This week, I decided to really clean up my diet, and get off the sugar, mostly quality milk chocolate but also sometimes too much fruit, or crime brûlée. I was urged to try the RS again because of its help keeping cravings down. For three days I did 1 tbsp morning and 1 before dinner. After day 2 the TMI was changing. And after day 3, the looseness was back, and the urgency. I stopped RS today because I just don’t have the time to sit home in the morning.
Does anyone know what is wrong with my biome? Obviously something is amiss. I haven’t had any antibiotics for maybe 5 years except what they give you during a c section birth two years ago. I also get migraines from any probiotic pills, liquids, or vegetables (I love kimchi but it doesn’t love me). I drink 1 cup of commercial full fat plain kefir a day, and 1 bottle of commercial kombucha a night in hopes of fermentation.
I suffer about 8 migraines a month. Maybe there is a connection.
Nancy, darling. Your comment is palpable to me.
You are suffering, girl. And it’s far beyond any advice I can offer. My only suggestion would be to fix your diet first, by which I mean no sugar that’s not in real food, no grains. Real food only you go out and get yourself, prepare yourself with whatever natural fats are your preference. Maybe feel free to include some of the foods touted for RS, but you probably ought stop supplementing it until you’re healthy.
You might consider seeking out pro help in the Real Food realm.
Nancy, based on what I know (but I could be wrong), RS works really well for gut dysbiosis, i.e., dysbiosis in the large intestine. It may not be that effective for SIBO or IBS. One way you can test is if you have gas or not. If you have IBS-type gas, then you might benefit from RS. Gut dysbiosis usually happens due to absence of fermentation — frequently when you VLC and restrict starches, carbs and fiber. Since bacteria provides moisture, if you don’t have enough good bacteria, your stool will turn hard and dry. If you do have dysbiosis, then I don’t know anything that’s more effective.
Thanks, Richard. I will. My diet is impeccable 75% and then I have on top of that, the sugary chocolate. I have had three good days so far avoiding it. I’ll have a bit of cold potato, rice, or tapioca daily instead of the potato starch and just keep trying.
Hi Nancy,
I always crave chocolate.I find if I eat liver the cravings go away!
Can you wean yourself gradually towards dark chocolate? The higher the chocolate percentage, the lower the sugar content. Unless the chocolate itself is causing your problems.
Spanish, I have the opposite effect you speak of. I am going to do the gut study at humanfoodproject.com so maybe that will give me some clues. I don’t have symptoms of SIBO or IBS. I tend to go 3-4 times a day and I guess that is better than constipation? I am never VLC – this week I’ve kept under 100 with fiber making it closer to 50.
Nancy, what Richard said.
But, for what it is worth, what I found worked for me a while back was raw, natural, unprocessed honey (the stuff that doesn’t come from a supermarket). I still eat it a lot, and can go days just eating honey alone. I only found out recently that the Hadza can go months on end getting up to 80% of their daily calories from honey, they also can eat 100% honey for days on end, which gave it a big “paleo” tick for me. It is arguably the best antibiotic available for a whole list of bad bugs and a prebiotic for bifido and a swag of good bugs. You see a lot of nonsense in the paleo-sphere about honey (the sugars, glucose, fructose will kill you etc), but worth looking past that, it is a unique food with unique properties. This is just my experience and may not work as well, however.
Just out of interest, I also found this paper a while back linking honey with the big brain evolution in humans, interesting to me since fats and the efficient tissue hypothesis have now recently been discredited for this, which makes sense when you look at the diet of the Hadza, who don’t each much direct fat at all (around 10-15% total). http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartnews/2012/09/honey-was-the-wonder-food-that-fueled-human-evolution-and-now-its-disappearing/
Nancy,
WARNING serious tmi ahead
When you say that the PS makes you go more often, is it actual watery D or a well formed stool that is just frequent with cramping?
I was having the latter (plus headache) from more than a tiny bit of either PS or foods high on RS and have been taking Prescript Assist for several days and it seems to be changing things for the better.
But, either way, I don’t think it can do you any harm to try a top quality prebiotic.
The bottom line however is that nothing is going to change if you don’t get off the sugar. I would suggest that the higher carb end of PHD style eating might help you avoid the sugar cravings.
Oops, just re read your original post and saw that you get migraines from anything probiotic. It does sound like you need a professional. But in the meantime it might be worth experimenting with some things to see if they can help you avoid the sugar cravings. My thoughts would be:
eating at the higher end of the PHD level of safe starches
Avoiding all fruit
Avoiding the kombucha and the kefir
Best wishes with resolving this soon.
In the hopes that Paul J would have some ideas for you, I would also suggest posting this at the Q & A on PHD or
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/10/everything-you-might-want-to-know-about-the-potato/comment-page-4/#comment-285360
Hi Tatertot,
I posted this for you on PHD. Can you please comment on this?
Ellen, thanks for posting the link to this discussion on PHD.
—
There is one thing that concerns me from the study you linked here http://fusion.infiniteplane.com/lactic-acid-bean-fermentation.pdf.
It says the nutrition and mineral content has decreased significantly in the fermented and cooked beans compared to the raw beans. Protein, fat, iron ,potassium and various other mineral contents have significantly decreased (see table 3).
Resistant starch content also decreased but we know that freezing will more than make up for it.
What is your take in the decreased nutrition and mineral content in fermented beans? Do you only eat it primarily for resistant starch? And do not count the protein and fat from fermented beans towards your daily macros?
—
Below is T-Tot Tim’s explanation to my question:
————————–
So people DO click links…I thought I was the only one who clicked on links.
Excellent questions T-Nat, On the page where Table 3 is, read the paragraph to the right of the table.
“Trypsin inhibitor activity and tannin content decreased by 57 and 83%, respectively, when black beans were fermented and cooked. However, the in vitro digestibility increased by 12.55%.”
This is very important and enough for me to always ferment beans. The trypsin inhibitors and tannins are two of the notorious ‘anti-nutrients’.. Get rid of them and overall digestion increases.
The decreases in Ca, Mg, Zn etc… don’t bother me. You shouldn’t eat raw beans,so the mineral content and RS in raw beans is irrelevant.
I don’t go crazy eating beans, I don’t think anyone should–but they have come out of my “PHD Apple Shadow” and sit in the safe starch section with an asterisk that means–’for variety, have some beans!’ My safe starches are still potatoes and rice mainly as every day staples, beans are like once a week with rice or maybe in chili. I think the fiber they provide is their best attribute, RS is nice, protein is a bonus–I don’t count it towards my daily intake, but then again, I don’t really count anything anymore.
Nancy – I concur with everybody else! You would probably be wise to look for a naturopathic doctor and get this all straightened out. Right now you are shooting in the dark, something is going on, you owe it to yourself to get it fixed.
Don’t bother with the American Gut Project unless you just want to give them money. They take 6+months to get back with you and only identify gut microbes to the family level–not species level.
Here is a better place: http://www.metametrix.com/files/test-menu/interpretive-guides/gi-effects-ig.pdf
This is a full report and quicker for not much more money. I have a buddy who can help you interpret the results if you need explaining, just post back here and we’ll get it figured out.
In the mean-time, green bananas have been used forever as a treatment for diarrhea in 3rd World Countries, I’d highly recommend buying a bunch of the greenest bananas you can find and eating 1-3 daily. If they are too hard to peel, slice them in half lengthwise and peel sideways. They taste like crap when that green, but eat while drinking hot tea or coffee to wash them down.
Oh, and quit eating milk chocolate! Learn to eat 100% Baking Chocolate, or buy the 90-100% candy chocolate. There is no high-quality milk chocolate!
@tatertot,
that sounds very interesting. Did you get this GI Effects test done on yourself? Do you know how much it costs? I tried to look up the details but it is asking me to fill-out a form to be called back.
Nancy:
Please go also post your comment at my long time friend Dr. BG’s blog, Animal Pharm.
(url removed)
She can probably help.
Apologize if this has been covered before, but asking again, because I don’t think we had an answer then and maybe we do now…?
When we reheat previously cooled or frozen potatoes, rice, legumes (or even oatmeal?) do we lose the resistant starch?
@Natural – No, I did the American Gut’s testing. Did it back in May or June, still haven’t heard anything. I will probably do the GI Effects soon. My wife thinks I’m a little crazy, so have to sneak it past her. Dr.BG at Animal Pharm will put you on the right track. Leave comments on most recent blog, mention Tatertot and Richard for speedy delivery.
@MsMcGi – I am confident enough to say, yes, RS stays after reheating. Especially when the reheating is a ‘dry’ heat, like stir-fried quickly in oil/fat, or oven baked.
Thanks Tim, most of what I do is dry heat….but I guess I got curious today when I decided to dump some cold potatoe cubes into the soup…..guess that answers it!
Yien, the info on the Hadza is very interesting. Just like the recent studies on the Pacific Islanders that eat good clean fats but lots of natural carbs and have paleo style bloodwork results! It’s not about macronutrients, is it? Fascinating and we have more to learn about this. I do love honey but don’t eat it much. I should see if it tides me over during the worst of the cravings.
Ellen, my TMI is that I tend to frequent barely formed stools, and RS put me out of form completely, and made the going urgent. Sorry. Kombucha has sugars but they say the alcohol / fermentation gets rid of them by drinking time. I despise sugary drinks — never ever ever drink juice — and I enjoy the kefir. It has relaxed me at the end of a stressful day. And kefir is really fermented milk. For me, kefir is so wonderful as a comfort food. I digest it so perfectly. Not sweet at all and just so satisfying. I put no sugar in it and always get the full Fat. It is the only probiotic I can get into me. I will use your other suggestions for sure. And I will post on PHD too, thanks.
Tater tot, I did give the American Gut Project money! I have their kit and haven’t sent it back yet. Bummer. But I will see if I can get that other testing done. I do want to know. Green bananas don’t sound very appealing but I can try. The day after I quit the RS, though, yesterday, I had TMI Form! So maybe I don’t need the moisture sucking unripe bananas! I do think the RS causes the poop difference and I’m thinking my bacteria are all wrong. I don’t have enough of the good kind that RS feeds, maybe. Once, a couple of years ago, I did train myself to eat the 75% and up chocolate and I could only eat a teeny bit or my stomach hurt — probably much better for me, right? Not as much decadent fun as the chocopiates but maybe I’d be a lot thinner…
Richard, I will post to your friend’s blog too. Thanks.
Nancy
You mention that when you stopped the RS, TMI was better next day.
This happened to me. I dove in full force, 4 tablespoons per day, taken in various ways like mixed in milk, kefir, various cold or warm foods, etc. Enormous fartage (take some at the same time you eat a plate of beans if you want to know what hilarious is).
TMI stuff was all over the map. I just persisted. Then I went away for a weekend, had none, and amazing TMI.
A couple of times later, I experienced instinct pain. I recall one time, 4th of July weekend we were at Tahoe w family, I took a bag of PS. First morning, I stirred 2 T in water, drank it down. For lunch, we went to a restaurant in one of the casinos and I had a French dip sandwich and fries, a favorite indulgence. An hour later, massive fartage, but this time, and the first and only, pretty bad intestinal cramps where you feel like you have to go, but can’t, but you fart and fart.
Interestingly, once it settled out I have have few issues since. Now, it seems not to matter much when or how I take it, but I do mix it up, anywhere from 0 to 4 T per day, random. Might be 4 one day, 1 the next, 3, o, o, 2, 1.
I do think it’s important to go 1-3 days from time to time with zero.
I also think that it’s a good idea to take a bolus dose of 4 T mixed only in water on an empty stomach in the morning, and fast at least until the afternoon. I have a speculation that in passing through the small intestine without food or anything else, whatever potential overgrowth of bacteria, some or maybe huge amounts glom onto the RS and get physically transported to the large intestine.
So, just some ideas to experiment with.
Wow, sounds like you could have water skied Tahoe without the boat! :(
In reading the thread where I posted my situation on the PHD site, they were helping a guy with gut lining problems start extremely slow with RS – like a teaspoon at a time. I don’t know if he has tried it, but the tablespoons were not working for him (pain and cramping were his symptoms, I believe). I wonder if I should try that.
Nancy – I won’t answer you at PHD, we’ll see what the others say, but I definitely think you should keep on with potato starch, 1tsp now, up it as you can. Eat/drink whatever fermented stuff you can, and even look into probiotic pills. I’d get several different ones and take them on alternate days.
I don’t think you’ll have to take them forever, just until you get your microbes in order, then they should take care of themselves.
Do the American Gut thing now, while you are in bad shape, and in a few months do another one from somewhere else–could be interesting.
And, I second everything Richard said about timing/dose. I do exactly the same.
Ok, Tater. Do you mean take the teaspoon and wait a long time before eating in the morning?
Nancy,
My thoughts about the kombucha and the kefir were not because they contain sugar but because they both contain species of fungus/mold as well as bacteria and it may be that you are overpopulating the fungal species at the expense of the bacterial ones. And that imbalance may be the cause of the sugar cravings.
Do you have any signs of fungal overgrowth? Rashes, toenail or foot fungus?
Does yogurt not work for you either?
I had a mysterious facial rash that would come and go over the years. Turns out that it would appear when I consumed either kefir, kombucha, or mold ripened cheeses on a daily basis over a period of several months. I only made the connection when I suddenly had horrible GERD whilst upping my consumption
Of coconut oil in order to bring on ketosis in the manner described by Paul J. He helped me connect the dots when he explained that ketosis feeds fungus and that my GERD might be fungal. He was right! Now I stay away from Ketosis and only consume kefir, kombucha and those yummy cheeses as a rare treat. And I suspect I will always have to be careful not to tip the scales in the wrong direction.
I don’t have rashes but I have tested positive for candida before. I do like yogurt and kefir. I did not know that ketosis feeds fungus, wow! I’m getting kind of lost between all of this advice or knowing what to do. I’m so grateful for the help but I don’t know what I am doing.
@Nancy – That’s what I meant, but thinking about it, you may be better taking a tsp several times a day, maybe 2-3 hours apart. Keep the intestines flooded with RS and put those lazy microbes to work!
Let symptoms be your guide.
Have you tried the dried plantain chips? Easy to make and a great all-day-long snack. Buy 4 or 5 hard, green plantains. Slice in half cross-ways and again lengthways. Peel the sections. Slice each section as thin as you can. Salt them or even cinnamon while still damp. Put on a screen, roasting rack, or in a dehydrator (or oven if it will go to 120 degrees or so–not much over). I like to put a fan on them. Turn every so often until bone dry. Use like Saltine crackers or just munch plain.
Each plantain has about 50g of RS, eat as much as you like, whenever you like.
Ok! I love cooked plantains, only had them twice at Caribbean restaurants. I’ll make some chips. And I will try the RS though I want to start small.
Tatertot, Nancy. This is off topic but there seems to be growing evidence that the immunity and gut flora connection is far more important thought. It doesn’t seem to be just hypothyroid symptoms. It looks like autoimmune diseases like RA may actually be caused by the imbalance of gut flora and the proliferation of the wrong kind of bacteria. This just came out last week. Now that would explain, then, why so many low carbers seem to graduate to autoimmune diseases. I mean, it seems to be an occupational hazard:
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2013/11/gut-bacteria-may-cause-rheumatoid-arthritis
@Span Car – You have no idea how much I have read lately on gut+immunity. Amazing stuff. One thing that ties it all together–RS. More to come!
Nancy, yeah finding out that ketosis feed fungus was a real shocker to me too. But it really made me aware that everything can have its down side and that there can definitely be too much of a of a good thing no matter what it is.
I know what you mean about all the information overload. Or knowing what you are doing. I certainly don’t, but what I try to do is just keep track of all the information coming in and my experiments . Give myself break from even thinking about it and then trust that even in its impaired state, my gut can guide me on my choices.
The Japanese traditionally ate cold white rice in the form of onigiri (rice balls) … the plain, salted ones were considered poor man’s food but I see now they had the health benefit of RS … natto too was a poor man’s food and the health benefits (Vitamin K) of that have been known for quite some time … but don’t mean to romanticize the Japanese diet – not so much now but some years back there were many, many old women in Japan whose backs were so bent that they could not stand up straight. I heard many reasons why but none of them made any sense to me but it must have been dietary.
@kayumochi
“some years back there were many, many old women in Japan whose backs were so bent that they could not stand up straight.”
Don’t know how old you are. I lived in Hayama from ’84-’89 and my goodness, the old Japanese women trying out for Hunchback of Notre Dame was a spectacle. No doubt all dead, now. It was amazing and I never ever had so much as a clue for why it was and it was ALWAYS women. You’d see them every day. To their credit, though, I always saw them because they were working their small asses off doing something.
In retrospect, it’s one of the things I loved most about Japan. The work ethic.
Since I went off on you last time, let me tell you how much I appreciated the place in the general. I worked in Yokosuka, 10km across the peninsula. But I wanted my own place, so I rented a place ($400 when Yen was 300/$, about $900 when, over trade deficit, $ was devalued to about 150/$).
My landlord lived next door to my house on Hayama beach. I could not tell a phone bill from an electric bill from a water bill or anything else. He would come and collect my mail, go pay the bills (local post office, I think) and present me a detailed invoice including rent every month, signed by his walrus tusk hand carved stamp in that red ink they use.
I just love this shit. And, went I went to sea for 2-3 months at a time, he’s just tell me not to worry about it and we’ll settle up whenever I got back.
Mr. Komine, in his 80s at the time, though vibrant and of sharp mind (he could read and write English, just not speak it very well, so we communicated by writing notes to each other) was one of the gentlest real mean I have ever known in my life.
Now & then, after business was done, he’s write out his experiences as a Japanese soldier in China during WWII. Then, he’d take his stack of Time, Newsweek, Business Week and a few other mags I’d saved for him, and go home.
Spanish C, I completely believe it. Autoimmune could be cleared up by diet – and other ways to affect the gut population. We just don’t know exactly how yet. I have two autoimmune conditions, one very mild and passive and one annoying. Maybe the migraines might be, as well. I know something is wrong with my gut bacteria. But it’s discouraging how hard and slow changing it would be. The poop transfer actually looks tempting to me, although right now it is only advocated for c. Difficile problems. One day there will be an easy way to hack the gut pop.
Kayumochi, I was wondering if onigiri were the perfect early RS. Not only are they eaten cold, but often have a preserved or pickled plum or onion or something in the center!
Yep, Japan was full of hunchback old women in the 1980’s. Their ranks have thinned since then … the Standard American Diet isn’t all bad: it has made Japanese taller and all-round better looking in my opinion and the hunchback is largely a thing of the past.
Tatertot may know something about the “yamaimo” or Dioscorea opposita as it is listed on Wikipedia. Could it be full of RS? Possibly – it is a tuber. And it is eaten raw in Japanese cooking … another poor man’s food. I imagine it can be found in Asian markets in North American (but I have never looked) and probably listed as Chinese or Korean yam.
I suppose onigiri could be looked at as an early RS (as Nancy suggested) but not sure if it could be considered “perfect” or not … certainly not by those who had nothing else to eat.
Nancy, Tatertot: Listen to what Diane Mathis, a Harvard pathologist, says. This just came out 5 days ago:
The intestinal microbiota … influences many aspects of life, including glucose metabolism, neural processes, the circadian clock and our immune defenses. It has been known for decades that proper development of the immune system requires the gut microbiota, and that alterations in the repertoire of microbes are often associated with immunological disorders, in particular autoimmune diseases in which the body mistakenly attacks its own tissues. While it is not very surprising that intestinal bacteria affect susceptibility to and/or the severity of autoimmune disorders localized to the gut—notably inflammatory bowel disease—their ability to profoundly impact other immune disorders, including arthritis, experimental allergic encephalomyelitis and type-1 diabetes, came as a surprise.
http://elife.elifesciences.org/content/2/e01608
Wow, doing flips here. This is what we’ve been missing all these years. This just coming out. Tatertot, you truly are at the cutting edge!
@Kayumochi – I have never seen anything on the RS content of yamaimo, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have RS. What I do see is that it is full of mucilage, a very potent prebiotic and one of the best butyrate producers, like RS. Read http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10068-012-0130-1 for a brief description of mucilage. It’s not found in many modern foods. Other prebiotics in the same category are gums and pectins–good prebiotics, but hard to get.
Also the yamaimo may contain glucomannan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucomannan the stuff found in konjac roots and shiritake noodles. Glucomannan is an excellent butyrate producer, too.
@Spanish Caravan – Thanks for that. T1D is definitely tied to gut. That surprised me. too!
Okay, how long until someone opens up an online store selling only organic prebiotic foods like prickly pear cactus stems, Glucomannan, Chana dal, yamaimo, etc.?
Yamaimo is sold in a local Korean food store (I checked) …. it seemed a bit expensive as it was imported from Japan …. not sure why it has to be imported as it could certainly be grown in North America.
I really want some yamaimo for making okonomiyaki and have zero Korean stores anywhere near me. Have tried finding seed tubers in the past to see if they would grow here in VA . So far no luck.
do you suppose that any of this is behind the significant increase (say over the past 40 years) in food allergies and certain infectious conditions? that we’ve gone so far in attempts to eradicate our environments of bacteria and lost our connection to naturally fermented foods….?
Ellen, I am not sure where you are in VA – but in Northern VA, there is a proliferation of Asian and particularly, Korean, markets.
Go Kimchi!
Thanks Mrs. McG, I am in northern Va…but much farther to the west. I should probably take a day’s outing to get me some and make an event of it. Just seems hard to find that extra day.
@MsMcGill – re: “do you suppose that any of this is behind the significant increase (say over the past 40 years) in food allergies and certain infectious conditions? that we’ve gone so far in attempts to eradicate our environments of bacteria and lost our connection to naturally fermented foods….?”
YES! And not just from what we eat, either–all the hand sanitizing, anti-bacterial soap/shampoo/toothpaste we use and not to mention antibiotics for everything. Add this to exposure to lead, mercury, pesticides, and other chemicals and I don’t see how we stand a chance.
I think eating right is a start, at least get the gut back to doing what it is supposed to: training the immune system, filtering toxins, producing vitamins and hormones, and preserving itself. Starve the gut of fermentable fibers and probiotics and you set the stage for attack by all the other things we have to deal with in life.
Spanish, that is wonderful. Wonder how long this will take to get into the mainstream. I’m guessing 10 years. Mainstream is still on low fat and cholesterol obsessions, just barely beginning to turn at the edges. No low info Americans have a clue that canola oil isn’t healthy.
What place do fermented veggies have in the diet – are they still helpful along with RS?
Ellen, is prickly pear cactus the same thing as nopalitos?
Nancy – I believe so. It was mentioned in that link Tatertot gave
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10068-012-0130-1
Fermented vegetable are important ? I think you would want a variety of pre and probiotics in your diet for maximal robustness.
I think fermented foods are very important. Both for their probiotics and the way the microbes change the digestibility of the food. I’d say, too, the worse the gut, the more fermented food you’d want to eat, like daily. But probably once a week is fine if you have a gut that will accept probiotics, like one that is fed plenty of RS and the like.
My guy picked up a jar of Bubbies naturally fermented sauerkraut at the store (guess he overhead me lol).
generally speaking, I’ve never been a fan of sauerkraut, but I’d like to give this a try. your favorite way to prepare kraut or use in a recipe?
Thank you! MsM.
MsMcG; I know it’s already been suggested that you simply eat the kraut raw, but it’s important to stress that using it in any cooked recipe will destroy the beneficial bacteria in the fermented veggies or cabbage (sauerkraut). I don’t know if you were initially referring to ‘recipes’ that aren’t cooked, but just in case, I felt I had to stress that point. Take care :)
Theresa – Lots of new research (and old research) suggests that the dead bacteria may even be more important than the live bacteria in fermented foods. Your body uses the bodies of the dead bacteria to train and strengthen it’s immune system–similar to vaccines that use dead pathogens, but it also seems to work with good bacteria. Thanks for joining in the conversation!
Wow, Tater, I wouldn’t have guessed that one in a million years–thanks so much. So if I want to fry up the sauerkraut it will still be beneficial? Yippee! :)
The woman who runs the Pickl-it company said that her German ancesters would always
Drink the kraut juice raw, but often cooked the kraut itself
Especially if it was older.
This is something I found just really quick. But what I think, it’s like everything…get your food in a variety of ways. Raw fermented foods with live bacteria, cooked fermented foods with dead bacteria, eat it all!
” However, animal experiments conducted with unviable [lactobacillus] showed that the unviable form has beneficial effects against several inflammatory conditions such as arthritis and Escherichia coli lipopolysaccharide-induced inflammation in the lungs and liver of rats[32,35]. This finding was possibly seen in our study as reduced colon weight. Nevertheless, live [lacto] seemed to be more effective over dead [lacto] in increasing the weight gain of rat pups after [rotovirus] infection, and was more efficient in reducing the number of RV from plasma. The effects of dead bacteria, however, might depend on the method of inactivation. For instance, inactivation by heat or irradiation might disrupt the surface protein conformation of the bacteria, inhibiting the probiotic’s ability to adhere to epithelial cell[36]. In case the anti-diarrheal effects are due to secreted bioactive or antimicrobial peptides[13,36,37], [lacto] needs to be viable.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491600/
it always comes back that the healthiest food to consume are from “old world traditions”. it does not matter if European or Asian traditions.
Thanks Tim, I think I’ll play it safe by doing just that: eating it raw and sometimes warmed up (I just made my first batch about 4 weeks ago and it’s nearly ready) and my next batch will be with added cauliflower, red peppers, asparagus and a little more cabbage. This information came just in time so we can enjoy it both raw and warmed a little or added to soups, etc. You guys are brilliant on this site–thanks to all the commenters here for so much excellent info…All the best.
That question mark was a mistake. I think fermented vegetables are very important. And not just sauerkraut. You can easily make your own with chunks of almost any vegetable or combination thereof that you want and seasoned however you like. I just put together a batch of kraut and can’t wait for it to be done. I like mine so much better than any I have ever bought.
By doing it yourself you can control the sourness and the crispness so it suits you. In the fridge I have a batch of kohlrabi chunks ,onions and dill, and another batch of kohlrabi, kelp and garlic. ( we grew the kohlrabi for this purpose because it makes such a crunchy pickle). I also made this cranberry relish. It makes a huge batch and you can freeze whatever you are not going to eat within a month.
http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/766/cranberry-orange-apple-relish/
But eat them raw. So no particular recipe, just as a small side dish with as many meals as you can. If you don’t care for Bubbie’s sauerkraut though, you could mix it with a raw carrot salad ( grated carrots, salt, olive oil and lemon juice) or toss it with some sort of beet salad.
Drink the liquid!
mmm, that recipe sounds yummy, Ellen–thanks for sharing it here….
Nancy –
Just saw this where Chris Kresser says he suspects that people who have a hard time tolerating probiotics have some immune system problem. He thinks those people tolerate soil based organisms better than lactobacillus
http://chriskresser.com/treating-sibo-cold-thermogenisis-and-when-to-take-probiotics
After a few weeks of 4 T PS daily in the morning, I have a few observations. I have lost about 50 pounds in 8 weeks doing a low cal and low fat diet – keeping it whole foods based except the morning whey protein drink with chia seeds and raw liver.
The PS did not make me gassy at all EXCEPT when consuming saturated fat. Certain days I up the fat content substantially and the farts are atrocious! The very next day when back to the normal diet, the farts go away and zero bloating. I am also eating homemade probiotic Kraut and Kimchi along with some Orange Triad vitamins.
I also noticed that the days I at rice and potatoes after prolonged ketosis and low fat – I felt great! When I did not consume PS before these big carb days, i was sleepy, gassy and felt bloated – not so when the 4 T of PS was consumed beforehand.
That is all…
@MsMcG – I love to just spoon a big pile of cold sauerkraut on top of rice or potatoes, or eat straight. Sauerkraut with bratwurst is amazing. As Ellen said, drink the juice and learn to make your own. Good tips and links here: url-removed/ If you try the ‘stink flipper’ let us know how it is!
@Jim – Holy crap! Good job, dude. Excellent notes on PS effect and gas. Thanks for the report. Did you read Mark’s Daily Apple this morning? We are on there! http://www.marksdailyapple.com/resistant-starch-zinc-deficiency/#axzz2kMNkpAsh
I tip my hat to Mark Sisson for admitting that he was wrong in underestimating the benefits of RS.
@tater – yes, saw the MDA article – good stuff. You have done so much to bring this all out into the open and Richard is never one to shy away from challenging Paleo diet dogma. BTW my extra protein day was deer backstrap but I did not make a gravy. I have about 20 pounds of freshly wild duck breasts from this past weekend and want to make a gravy that I make using vermouth, garlic, pasture butter and add unmodified Pototo starch – I will keep you posted.
Jim, I had to read your post twice – 50 pounds in 8 weeks? so you are dropping more than a half pound per day? I can only assume you are doing this by creating huge calorie deficits (low cal and lots of exercise?) I’ve heard the body will backfire by ratcheting up the hunger hormones…so assume you are having a binge day here or there?
Best to you….real interested in seeing what your daily menus look like ;)
Yes – I am a powerlifter and was a pretty high caliber athlete back in the day (middle aged now) I have slabs of muscle and large belly typical of out of shape powerlifters – belly has shrunk significantly ;-). I am very calculating in my approach and have all my macros dialed in etc.
I do not recommend what I do to the lay person. Paleo is a great lifestyle way of eating and will get you slim. I am not uncomfortable or hungry and have an occupation that allows for me to so what I do. Hormones all good.
I eat about 200 to 225 grams of protein a day and significantly more one night a week and sometimes two (depending on how many wild animals I murder over the weekend).
Short update. I’ve been taking potato starch for several weeks now and every few days check my FBG. Way before starting potato starch, it was typically in the high 80s. My naturopath was concerned and recommended a special alpha lipoid acid product which seemed to help – brought FBG into the low 80s. Then I started potato starch and it dropped into the high 70s. Two weeks ago I dropped the ALA and FBG is generally in the 70s, though this morning it was 63 (and 64 the second reading).
And for Marie – I had a large GF pancake with maple syrup this morning after my usual 2 T of potato starch and experienced no problems – loud or otherwise ;-).
Linda, thank you for remembering! :)
Wow, great progress, Linda. Have you seen any progress though for postprandial BG? My FBG is lower, into the 90s. But it seems my 1h or 2h postprandial isn’t that much different than before. I was expecting something like Tatertot’s numbers. Perhaps too soon? I’m on 4 tbsp plantain starch and been at it for about 2 months. Great BM, normal body temperature, much improved FBG, but not yet PP or lowered BG upon ingesting a large carby meal. Is this the last mile?
To be honest, I’ve only checked postprandial once and that was before potato starch. I hit a high of 107 at 2 hours. Now that you bring it up, I’ll track that and see how it goes.
Another satisfied customer! I’ve reported previously that while I saw some improvement in FBG with potato starch and/or pinto beans, it wasn’t dramatic. Perhaps that’s because I wasn’t consistent with my RS intake.
Well, I have been now for two weeks, one and/or the other source, and holy carbohydrate, Batman! My FBG was running in the 130’s ten months ago, slowly going down with sporadic RS, and for awhile a hell of a lot of yogurt, buttermilk, and probiotic pills. (I’ve dropped all that as therapy.)
Now I’m seeing consistent mid-90’s!
Zero issues with fartage’, pain, or anything else. In fact, I probably fart less than w/o RS.
So, thank you Richard, Tatertot, and Marie for all you hard work getting this out to the public. I’m reporting this to my doc today.
pzo, that’s terrific! Thanks for sharing. I wonder, ever since taking it daily, roughly how much potato starch (or the equivalent RS in pinto beans) would you say you’ve been getting on average? Also, what’s your regular diet like, are there wheat, other starches, fruits, dairy, fermented foods…. It’s possible that bout with yoghurt and probiotics helped seed the gut, making the RS even more effective as it found a better population of good bacteria to feed.
Wow, that is fantastic pzo!
Like marie, I am also curious to know what dosage of PS you have settled down for. I initially started at 3-4tbs and noticed some joint pain and am back at 1tbs + psyllium 1tbs now and my joints feel much better although there is still some pain. I plan to stick with 1tbs for a few more weeks and hope the joint pain will be completely gone. Then I’ll up the dosage slowly.
T-nat
pzo – are you still doing the amylose inhibitors?
I have been studying up on oxalates and the symptoms of not processing them properly – autoimmune and joint issues – seem to fit, so I am gently limiting them now, which has gotten me off brown chocolate. I confess to buying some good quality cocoa butter to make some not very sweet white chocolate. Haven’t made it yet.
I know my gut population is not ideal, which is why RS loosens my TMI worse than it already is. I still need to find a way to repopulate. The one bacteria which processes oxalates best can’t be purchased; most adults who have ever taken antibiotics have lost it. There are others that do process them but not as well.
As I have said, the only probiotics I can tolerate without migraines or nausea so far are commercial kefir and kombucha. I try to have both each day. I can tolerate natural but commercial probiotic sauerkraut in tablespoon quantities too. Wish I could eat a bowl of it; it’s so good.
I so want my gut population to be better.
Nancy – Many people share your frustration, but don’t have the desire to do what it takes to fix it. Keep at it, hopefully you’ll get there. Were you the one that sent of an American Gut sample?
Nancy,
very interesting to hear that brown chocolate and oxalate connection. By brown do you mean any and all brown including dark chocolate? The reason I ask is because I eat dark chocolate (1 0r 2 squares a day) and I am also having minor wrist and finger joint pain. I have attributed my joint issues to excessive Potato Starch intake and started to cut back on my PS dosage. It has helped but not completely eliminated the pain. (to be precise, the issue I am having is that my grip strength on my left had is impaired)
Now that you mentioned brown chocolate, I’d be very interested to learn more about it’s effect on oxalate processing and therefore joint pain. Is there any literature you can point me to in this regard? What are the other foods that you are trying to eliminate?
Thank you and appreciate your reply.
T-nat
tatertot, Marie.
My dosage of RS is 4 TBL potato starch in water or other beverage. It counts as 160 kcal or 17.8 grams of fat. My pinto beans are soaked for 36 hours, no salt added. Most days a half cup, sometimes a whole cup. I make a large bag, freeze it, thaw when I need a few cups for the fridge.
Yes, I recognize that maybe I got my gut flora in good shape with the yogurt, etc. Or, maybe it’s that tbl of dirt I eat everyday. Jus’ kidding. Certainly the pro? pre? biotic tablets couldn’t have hurt, they have a variety of single cell friends in there.
My diet is mid-low carb, ranging from 30 to 130 grams a day. Mostly well under 100 and that includes all types like in dairy and fibrous ones. I record everything with Diet Organizer, I highly recommend it, and only $20. Only the beans and occasional yellow rice or potatoes are the starchy types of carbs.
I stopped playing with the amylase inhibitor, wasn’t seeing what I hoped for. And, while not expensive, I have to order it on line. One time when I knew I was going to be having a sandwich at lunch, I did my RS before leaving home and did four amylase tablets.
Despite my good FBG – and it was never below 95 or so anytime in my life – not seeing substantial improvements in postprandial measurements. Impaired insulin production? I’ve just decided to limit my starch to 30 grams at a meal, which then bumps BG to 140 or so in 30 minutes. Allegedly, it is time spent above 140 that leads to metabolic sydrome, ACE’s, etc.
Bob’s Red Mill owes you guys a cut!
Potato starch bread? Yes!
Not claiming this is a way to get PS and the pleasure of bread in your diet, but just “gotta” share: After Whole Paycheck stopped carrying Einkorn bread, I tried this and that brand of gluten free bread. I’m not celiac but I definitely have the wheat sensitivity if I overindulge. And frankly, I miss the variety of eating that bread gives. Most just didn’t cut it, including Udi’s. I settled on eating real bread via Pepperidge Farms Very Thin White Bread. Not ideal, but the small serving size limited the damages.
Then, recently, in the frozen breads, came something I’ve never seen: Glutino Genius Multi-grain gluten free. First ingredient is our old friend, potato starch! Also uses corn, tapioca, and brown rice starches. OHMIGOD!!! This bread is SO good, you would never guess you are being deprived! Compared to the Very Thin by weight or slices (1:2), it’s 2/3rd the carbs and 10% of the sugar. Sadly, canola oil is the #2 ingredient. But since this is a treat, the dose makes the poison.
http://www.glutino.com/products/breads/genius-by-glutino-multigrain-sandwich-bread/
@ Nancy: May I caution you to be very slow to conclude how such a minor component as oxalates may or may not be impacting you. They are such a small component of any food, they are in most foods, and you can’t quantify it from a nutritional label, and measuring pain is very subjective.
Spinach and other leafy greens are the big carriers, so if you can eat a big bowl of spinach w/o ill effect, look elsewhere.
I found this page useful: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48
I was surprised to learn that we animals make oxalate!
pzo – the tone of your posts seems so upbeat, looks like the potato starch is working it’s magic on you! Thanks for all the detailed info, made my day! I’m with you on oxaltes–nothing to worry about as long as it’s from real food, but I don’t blame people for being careful.
PZO:
Thanks. I love Udi’s, but I usually either do light or dark toasted, depending upon application. toasting really kicks it up to resemble regular toasted bread. Cool thing is, I get ZERO issue from it. No heartburn, no bloating, no coma a couple hours later.
I use the Glutino crackers, which are just like crackers. Will have to give their bread a try.
I speculate that because of the freezing, there’s a decent amount of retrograde RS in it. So, bonus, potentially.
Richard, I went back to the Glutino page after posting, and see that they were bought by Udi’s and are part of larger food company. I guess that’s why the Udi’s gluten free disappeared in the freezer and was replaced by this.
I found Udi’s gluten free to be sort of pasty in flavor. Not much to look forward to, honestly.
Holy Fasting Blood Glucose, Batman! This AM, 87. I have never seen that in my life, literally. Even pre-pre-diabetic, mid 90’s. Perhaps it was due to me forgetting to “take” my PS until mid evening? Dunno.
Time for a RS jump start, Richard? This last post is a month old.
Been doing the 4 tbs of PS day after day, month after month since all this started and I now weigh less than when I started and am leaner and more muscular. Other than the PS my diet has remained the same.
Another post early next week.
@Kayumochi Thanks, your posting gives me hope!
Thanks, Richard.
Tater, I haven’t sent the sample yet. I keep forgetting to chart every morsel I eat for seven days! But I did pay.
T-Nat, apparently the most important and well researched list of oxalates in food is on and belongs to the yahoo group called Trying Low Oxalates and it’s easy to join. There are a lot of people bitching about how it is proprietary to this group, so just get in line, lol. But yes, brown chocolate, both dark and milk, is high in oxalates.
Once of the most interesting things I have learned about oxalates is that there is one bacteria which is excellent at processing them, and that children all have it, but most adults no longer do (especially after antibiotics). And it can’t be supplemented. Again everything points to the gut.
Pzo, I have never noticed an effect from oxalates, ever. I am just experimenting. But I do not like that yahoo list posts. Everyone is forever complaining about “dumping,” which is supposedly something good because the oxalates are leaving the body. It doesn’t sound like people are getting better, just worse. Not really into that. I have already learned that “candida cleanses” are BS because the shock to the body (after shocking the bugs, right? They get us back) is not worth it — change your diet, sure, but don’t neglect the biome entirely! Same thing with a lot of the extreme diets like GAPS, for most. So, re oxalates, I gave up the worst offenders in my diet, and am going to leave the rest alone.
As I adjust my diet, it gets more limited. I hate that. I gave up wheat 3.5 years ago, and now I have a terrible night if I eat it, so I do not. Only tried it once. I cleaned out every trace of MSG or any way it could hide in a food, very careful at restaurants, and my reaction now is extreme to the tiniest bit. I tried a sample of a nut snack in whole foods, carefully chose the “sea salt only” version, and when I checked the ingreds, it had one of the MSG euphemisms on there! And though the one bite didn’t give me a full migraine, it started to, and I could feel my tissues swelling and my eyes reacting.
I even have begun to react to macadamia nuts, get very sick feeling as well as tongue and lip swelling, even though I have eaten them my whole life. I don’t touch them now. Also, and this is good, I feel bad after eating something made with canola. :). I used to be able to steal some of my kids’ plain chips.
I am trying 2 slices of Udi’s a day in hopes of helping with Tmi. Will let you know my N=1 on that.
I’ve been confused with the oxalate drama too… What high ox foods do u avoid? Sweet potatoes? Plantain? Spinach? Almonds?
Also, I have a chronic klebsiella pneumoniae infection that causes numerous autoimmune issues from ibd to alkalosing spondylosis. Problem is, it’s a starch eating bacteria and is nearly impossible to get under control. Would RS help or make this worse?
I also have chronic Sibo, hhv6,mycoplasma pneumoniae, mycotoxins/mold exposure, yeast, and parasites. Yep, gut is a mess and nothing seems to help
Bee – look for comments from “Ellen” around here, she’s another Ankylosing Spondy person who’s giving RS a shot and seems to be working out for her. Also look at PHD website–guy there cured AS w/starchy diet: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2014/01/curing-ankylosing-spondylitis/
There is a genetic component to AS, so buyer beware, but if it was me, I would take the approach of feeding gut bugs RS to get a beneficial batch going rather than starving ALL of them to hopefully push out a few bad ones. It doesn’t really seem to work like that in real life.
I’d find Ellen if I were you, read her stuff, ask her questions–she posts fairly regularly.
Wait! I saw my name but think Tater must mean someone else….is it Harriet? I have seen a few posts from another Ellen, but don’t remember that she had AS either. Wish I could be of more help.
To clarify, Idk for certain if i have AS.. It hadn’t been completely confirmed, but I do have arthritis and ibd and a host of AI issues stemming from dysbiosis as a contributer. Mold toxicity brought a lot of this on due to a rare hla gene I have that doesn’t enable my body to recognize biotoxins and thus my doesn’t can’t elicit an immune attack against the pathogens bc it’s doesn’t know they are there. So, the infections are left to fester and create massive havoc in my body. I also have bad methylation, Glucoronidaton, and sulfation genetic snps according to 23andme
I have chronic infections of klebsiella, mycotoxins, mycoplasma pneumoniae, some lyme co infections, parasites, candida and yeast at the 4+ level, hhv6,and have also had MRSA (and high dose vancomycin ivpb, Cipro and other dangerous abx), Aeromonas, citrobakter, proteus etc.
I’m basically trying a diet that is autoimmune paleo + low fodmaps + low histamine + low oxalate + no fruit + anticandida…. This is after years of being vegan
So, my situation is pretty rough and doctors (allopathic and alt med) haven’t been of much help. My vit/Min levels are pretty low due to the malabsorption too. I try to do some coconut milk Kefir to get some flora in, but can only handle a smidge due to histamine and a coconut allergy.
Norm robillard seems to feel that rs is not beneficial for those with starch feeding bugs like klebsiella pneumoniae, nor for those with Sibo. Idk who to believe at this point lol
Also, can u clarify the oxalate issues? Lots of controversy in this…. Many feel it is the mission link to chronic AI issues bc oxalate is a poison that stresses the body, causing inflammation and chronic health problems. Susan Owens is the lead researcher behind this
Sorry! Yes, of course, I meant Harriet! Apparently RS does nothing for memory!
Also, Bee – Check out Norm’s website. He has a new Forum section, even one for people trying RS. He’s very open minded. If you want to pick a plan, his is solid. Jumping between plans may get you in trouble.
Norm’s RS forum (very new!) http://digestivehealthinstitute.org/forums/forum/resistant-starch-friend-foe/
Bummer last week regarding the raw starch consumption.
Broke out in heavy psoriasis plaques on each leg- symmetrical to my vertical midline! The last time I had this happen this bad was high school 30 years ago while I was consuming massive amounts of whole grain cereals, Wheaties, Raisin Bran, Shredded wheat, Ralston, Farina, etc plus of course the normal fair Captain Crunch, King Vitaman, Quisp, coco puffs, Frosted Flakes and many others which certainly had nothing to do with it – it was the whole grain shite for sure.
Anyway, I will clear these up and sart back with just RS from retrograded foods, rice, beans , and some plantains. No more tablespoons of the white stuff for now.
Nancy – You will be mad when you fill out the questionnaire for diet–they don’t even ask, they just want a rough macro breakdown. They recommend you track for 7 days, but you don’t need to. It doesn’t effect the test.
I finally was able to trigger a few hours of foul gas today. Happened after drinking a half a cup of a delicious chocolate milkshake — something I rarely do these days. And there you go.
Duck Dodgers, if you wanna trigger some gas, eat some green plantains. I know that dried green plantains are the best real food source of RS. But I’ve been just microwaving them. I know this will reduce RS but I’ve been hooked on these microwaved plantain soices: they’re easy to make, easy to stockpile, and easy to eat when hungry.
What I noticed is that they will make you go to the bathroom. Several times a day. And the gas will be there, too. Not necessarily foul-smelling, as this is fermented starch; I don’t think such gas is ever foul-smelling unless there’s something’s wrong. But gas will definitely be there and I think it is perfectly normal. I mean I don’t know any ethnic group that does not have its own tradition and etiquette regarding flatulence. Yes, it’s considered embarrassing in polite company and public gatherings. But it’s tolerated within family and in private quarters. This leads me to believe it is perfectly normal. Only the foul-smelling flatulence is unacceptable, as it may signal healt issues.
I was going to save this until Richard jump starts the RS topic next week, but I’m too excited to contain this news that long.
I know that TT said that 4 tbsp was either the optimum, or all that was necessary, don’t know which. But after yesterday’s FBG of 87, with the PS taken in the evening, I decided to double down. Literally, 4 tbsp in the AM, then another 4 down the hatch just before dinner. The latter was with a meal of 5 oz of ground beef, 1 tbsp of coconut oil, and 11 oz of potato which has 65 grams of carbs. That’s a heck of a starchy carb bomb.
For the first hour I measured every 15 minutes. It peaked at 45 & 60 minutes, a VERY respectable 157 & 160 considering the 65g of carbs. And that when I did a 75g of carb test (no oil or meat that time) last spring, my BG went to something like 240. And it took well over 3 hours to get back to something like 110.
I intended to measure at 2 hours and 3 hours, but the test ended at 2. Why? My BG was down to 85! Which is were it was this AM, again.
So, for a couple dimes worth a day of very natural plant extract, PS has not only cured my pre-diabetic condition, but I am more insulin sensitive than ever before in my entire adult life!
(Shhhhhhhh….don’t let Big Pharma or Big Food get hold of this. Otherwise stoopid peeps will believe that they need a “product” to fix what ails them. It’s the Amurikin way, you know!)
pzo doubling down could be an effective Thanksgiving Day strategy …
pzo – The ‘optimal dose’ is yet to be defined. The 4TBS number I throw around all the time is based on the amount that a normal person can digest at one time. 4TBS several times a day, should keep a constant flow of butyrate going and maybe is what’s needed for people trying to rebuild their gut or recover from MetSyn.
I love having a bunch of dried plantains around to munch on throughout the day–making some right now as a matter of fact!
Thanks for the experimenting and report, I know you were hooked on the amylase inhibitor angle for a while, I still think there may be merit to that, but you seem to confirma that RS is better than undigested carbs in the colon.
Thanks
Pzo, if that 75g OGTT test last spring was accurate, you had full-blown t2 diabetes based on your BG going over 200. You say you’re prediabetic. Were you not dxed as diabetic at any point? How’s your A1c? As for RS blunting hyperglycemic effect, I’d say that’s probably the case. If you’re diabetic, though, I don’t think it will restore your insulin resistance. If you’re prediabetic, it might over the long haul.
I’m realizing now that BG control may be a byproduct of having healthy and well-balanced gut flora. So you can progress toward diabetes on both SAD and VLC diets, as both can make your gut flora unbalanced. So telling a prediabetic person to go on a VLC diet may not be sound; that will control his BG but might worsen his gut flora.
Tater, I’ve heard you say you eat dried plantain slices. I know you explained the steps in drying them. But how do you store them? Let’s say you’ve sliced and dried about a dozen plantains. You’ve dried them over 48 hours. Then what? I’m finding that you can’t keep them around room temperature for more than 2-3 days. In the fridge, they begin to deteriorate also. How about freezing them and defrosting them at room temperature when you’re ready to eat them? Would that still preserve RS; I understand plantains are mostly RS2. So no benefit of freezing for RS3 but would defrosting them when ready to eat preserve the RS2?
Caravan, I had a blood panel done in January, my FBG was 130. Which is generally taken to mean “impaired,” often called pre-diabetic. So the doc ‘scribed me a glucometer and supplies and that’s allowed to experiment freely.
I did a lot of research for non-pill methods of regaining insulin sensitivity. I tried strong cinnamon tea, and that seemed to help for maybe 10 points, but a pain to make and drink a quart a day. There are some research articles showing that prickly pear/napolitos is helpful. But the thought of eating a lot of that, well, not very tasty. (Although free for me, a friend has a plant.)
I had great concerns about my pancreas perhaps not making enough insulin. But w/o an insulin level test, it’s hard to know. I have no history of high BG levels, so this has all been a shock and a heck of a research and experiment journey.
Even w/o the cinnamon tea, my FBG had drifted down to the 110-115 range. But RS has definitely brought it WAY down.
Having said that, my large morning meal with a cup of pinto beans sent my BG up to 134 in an hour, that’s fine, but it actually went to 141 at two hours.
I’m thinking, at this time, that the amazing results of last night came because I consumed the PS just before I ate the meal. Something protective, something stopping the potato starch from being broken down by amylase, better than the amylase inhibitor (starch blocker) pills!
Our bodies: weird bio-machines.
Oh, yeah, about cactus for glucose control. Ran across something the other day unrelated to BG, but it turns out that the cactus has a lot of mucilage……..i.e., soluble fiber, which acts like RS as food for those little buddies down there.
Never have heard of starch blocking pills before pzo … interesting. Not sure why but I take my PS mostly after dinner but you mentioning taking it before a meal had me thinking: on the weekends I will often make a smoothie with 2-3 bananas several hours after a workout and after ending my water fast. After starting PS some months ago I began adding it to the smoothie which gave me gas so bad my wife had to send me away … but just recently I have begun to take the PS right before the smoothie mixed in water. No or little gas. You would think that the PS would react the same but it does not.
@pzo
Yamaimo is used for diabetes. You may want to give it a try. Tatertot mentioned this tuber’s beneficial properties recently in a post …
Pzo, you’re focused way too much on FBG; it’s a faulty marker and is unduly affected by the dawn effect, a carby meal/snack the night before, PIR, stress, etc. Was that not a lab-conducted OGTT that you took where you breached 200? If you did that on your own, that could be wrong. But why isn’t your doc testing for HbA1c? To know where you’re with regard to pancreatic capacity, you need a FBG with c-peptide or insulin. If you’re prediabetic, your IR should show up as normal or elevate FBG (but under 130) and high/high normal insulin or c-peptide. That’s IR right before morphing into full-blown diabetes.
You can’t tell if you’re diabetic with 130 FBG; it’s right on the cusp and unreliable. You’re at least prediabetic but may be diabetic if your OGTT was lab-conducted with exact 75g glucose. I’ve tried various supplements to lower my FBG: Cinnamon; Gymnema Sylvestre; Chromium Picolinate; green tea; stevia. All are very modestly effective compared to RS. If there is a cure for T2 diabetes, I believe it may be found by tinkering with our gut flora.
I usually make 5 or 6 plantains at a time, then store in a ziplock bag on the counter…never had a problem with them going soft or moldy. It is pretty dry here, though, so humidity may be a big factor. just make as many as you can eat in a couple days. Freezing would be OK, no RS increase or anything and they’d probably need re-dried when thawed.
Also, HbA1C is much better marker, but I think a lot can be inferred from a downward trending FBG and pp’s.
Definite connection between gut and T1 and T2D. The fact that RS quickly improves insulin sensitivity tells me that T2D is an inflammatory gut problem.
Oh, Tater, bummer!! I should have done it long ago, will get to it after thanksgiving.
Re nopalitos: about 5 or so years ago I fell in love with them. I can’t remember exactly but I think you have to cook them in the pan with nothing for a few minutes on medium, stirring, until the gel or goo disappears, then eat/cook them as you would any stir fried veggies. I use to buy them pre-stripped of the needles because those are nasty to deal with, then cut up into dice. I haven’t eaten them in years but they are quite good.
@spanish caravan: Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. Believe me, I do understand that measurements of whatever kind may be subject to many variables. And that one number is good and one less (or more) is bad is nonsense. We tend to treat a guideline number as a definitive marker. Total Cholesterol used to be fine if it was under, what, 250? Now, it’s 200. More to worry about, and lots of research in the intervening years is showing that 200-250 is the healthiest range.
Anyway, the time I saw 240 and a very slow return was with 75g of carbohydrate from grits. I guess that included a bit of “fiber,” what a misnomer.
We did do an A1c. I don’t remember the number but it pretty much was right in line with the measured, elevated BG.
And yes, I realize the vagaries of morning FBG. Nevertheless, it’s a starting point and as TT pointed out, it’s the trends that really matter. If my FBG was hovering 115, then with PS it kept falling to 84, 85, 89 it’s safe to safe that’s about what it now is. This AM was 89, no PS yesterday, but I did have that cup of beans.
I think today’s grand experiment will be classic bacon and eggs and a cup of grits, although this time with butter. And, of course, a preprandial cocktail of 4 tbsp of PS. Not an exact replica of the 75 g of carbs from grits only, but close enough to see if The PS preprandial is the ticket.
Well, scratch all my joy of the preceding several days!
Yesterday AM I had that breakfast I mentioned, although the cup of carbs has either 29 or 38 grams of carbs, depending on whether you believe Quaker or the USDA. It was preceded by 4 TBL of PS and a fasting BG of 89. I measured BG every 15 minutes for two hours, then 30 minutes apart to three and a half hours. How discouraging! it climbed to 150 over 90 minutes. It took an additional two and a half hours to get down to 101.
Compare that to recent observations that if I keep my carbs to 30 or so in a meal, I bet back down to low BG in 90 minutes or so.
I ate routinely the rest of the day, another 4 TBL of PS around dinner time. last food, a bowl of greens and pork, abouut 9PM.
This AM my FBG was 122!
And my weight jumped up.
Sigh.
Meant cup of grits.
Pzo:
are you exercising regularly? I am an intermittent exerciser and it seems to me that the PS doesn’t have nearly as much effect on days when I don’t exercise. Or actually of the following days. Which, by the way is usually not much more than a half an hour brisk walk. I am not sedentary. I am on my feet much of the day most days. But that half hour seems to be key. Will report back when I have kept better records of this aspect.
Ellen, not these days, other than some spurts of yard and house care.
Permit my observation, please, that it’s sort of dangerous to link something as “loosy goosy” as RS effects to a half hour of walking, especially since you are on your feet all day.
N=1 observations are fraught with error.
Pzo,
My intention was not to say the this was definitely the case, but simply that it has occurred to me that it seems to be a “possibility” in my case . Particularly because I tend to focus on the food to the exclusion
of exercise.
As I said, I will be experimenting with this and keeping better records to see if it actually does work for me. It was simply a suggestion of another factor to look at.
I certainly agree that n=1s are fraught with error and it does seem quite a far stretch that a half hour brisk walk would make such a difference. And even if it does make a difference for me, I know that does not mean it would have any effect on your situation. But exercise seems an easy thing to add to the mix, and certainly can’t do any harm to include in the experiment.
A great source of konjac noodles is konjacfoods.com.
Still researching, but it appears RS somehow increases insulin sensitivity so that blood sugar isn’t driven too high. Wouldn’t this also mean blood sugar would then not be driven too low due to amplified insulin secretion caused by things like ethanol of microbial origin? Hypoglycemia is more dangerous than hyperglycemia. So, maybe how it’s working is by increasing microbes such as bifidobacteria and good, butyrate-belching clostridium which then control offending organisms such as fungi which produce ethanol known to drive down blood sugar to dangerous lows via amplified insulin secretin. I believe small intestinal fungal overgrowth (SIFO) is underdiagnosed, especially co-occuring with bad clostridium or e.coli overgrowth. Ethanol is a product of yeast. This also explains why drinking alcohol can cause hypoglycemic seizure. People in the epilepsy community are experimenting with PS with good results so far in curbing well-known early morning seizure. Here’s an illustration: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/en.2007-0632
Keith I think Richard has just posted “the” answer to this on fb.
“Scientists pinpoint mechanism behind beneficial health effects of fermentable fiber
And it is surprising: According to scientists from the Université Claude Bernard it is the production of glucose by the intestine from propionate and butyrate that is behind the positive effects of fermentable fibers on the organism.”
Here a couple links, one with a beautiful illustration but most text hidden behind paywall:
http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2813%2901550-X
Next link: “Apart from this previously unknown mechanism, this work sheds light on the role of the intestinal flora which, by fermenting dietary fiber, provides the intestine with precursors to produce glucose. It also demonstrates the importance of the intestine in the regulation of glucose in the body. Finally, these findings should make it possible to propose nutritional guidelines and to highlight new therapeutic targets for preventing or treating diabetes and obesity.” as Richards post on fb here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140114090822.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fdiabetes+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Health+%26+Medicine+News+–+Diabetes%29
Keith
Thanks for that. Any refs or links to the epileptics using PS? Even anecdotes are fine if you know of any.
In mine and Tim’s book collaboration I keep coming across fungal stuff, so your yeast hypothesis surely makes some sense to me and gives more to look into. Not just bacteria.
Has anyone considered resistant starch as antibiofilm? Fungi and bacteria produce amylase to degrade RS. Amylase busts biofilm. Would amylase production be enough to keep populations in check?
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12010-011-9526-2
http://benthamscience.com/open/openaccess.php?tomicroj/articles/V005/21TOMICROJ.htm
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2013/150653/
http://synapse.koreamed.org/Synapse/Data/PDFData/0184MB/mb-34-128.pdf
http://pelagiaresearchlibrary.com/european-journal-of-experimental-biology/vol3-iss4/EJEB-2013-3-4-26-34.pdf
Fungi produce lactic acid and ethanol from potato starch:
http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/47204
http://aem.asm.org/content/52/5/1055.full.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00449-005-0398-0#page-1
So, the basic hypothesis is that RS may be forcing microbes to produce enzymes, acids and alcohols which serve to clean up shop in the small intestine, right where they live in their slimy biofilm matrix communities. Of course, you can also take amylase supplement (also thought to degrade histamine), but the results may not be as well-targeted as with RS.
Fascinating.
I have some Teal to cook and want to make my Duck and Oyster gumbo. The problem is the roux, as it uses flour. I am reticent to try nut flour and coconut flour b/c of taste. I am going to experiment with Potato starch (I have an ass-load b/c I have been taking 4 TBSP a day for over a month now). Anyway, I plan to make my roux with duck fat and potato starch and then cool for 24 hours before reheating and adding the rest of my recipe – Will it achieve similar retrogradation as rice and potatoes due to being cold for 24 hours?
don’t do it, jim.
You can make a decent roux using BRM’s gluten free flour. Otherwise, just skip the roux since it’s for a gumbo. You only need to thicken, and here’s how to use PS to do that.
Stir 1-2 tsp into a cold slurry of water or stock (chicken stock would work for this), then get your pot on a low boil and pour it in and stir. Never just ad the PS directly or you’ll get clumps of GHTs (gelatinous hard things…it’s a technical term).
That’s the problem with roux if someone is going gluten free. There is nothing out there that can replace that beautiful dark brown roux achieved from wheat flour. It gives the finished product a distinct flavour.
Hungarian cooking is roux based. I just made a roux free lentil soup. In order to pretend I’m not going to miss the flavour, I blended it all up with smoked fat, smoked sausage and added lots of yoghurt and sour cream. It still misses that, maybe it’s umami.
I always appreciated your reducing of gravies back in the day. I will try your suggestion – what about the retrogradation of BRM roux that is refrigerated for 24 hours?
I have some BRM gluten free flour on hand. I will try both for a roux and discard if necessary. I cannot waste wild game but feel perfectly “humane” wasting various flours in an attempt at dark brown roux.
If resistant starch prevents a blood glucose spike, does that make the sugar not as bad for you?
I just ate 3 bananas with half a raw green plantain, is that an excessive amount of sugar to have an every meal?
James – that’s kind of a loaded question. RS doesn’t make it OK to pig out on sugar, although that does seem to be what many hope.
Bananas are funny, as long as they still have some green, they don’t have a ton of sugar and are a good source of RS. Once they have black spots all that RS has converted to sugar. So it’s hard to say how much sugar you got from 3 bananas. I wouldn’t recommend 3 bananas every day, but I guess there are worse things you could be eating.
Hi there,
I’ve recently been going to my local park and walking about 500 ft into the woods to pick up my free “Prescript Assist” SBOs :)
Is this a bad idea?
I usually bring a raw plantain and rub some of the dirt on it and eat it.
Thanks,
James
The biggest pile of quack science along with all of the other non-science (nonsense) to be found on the general internet. If you want real statistics… then
n=2000 or more would make sense.
Guess what, I’m left handed… and my friend is left handed…. so you must be left handed along with everyone else right? That is how stupid this article reads.
Unfortunately for you, Michel, this post is almost 2 years old and in the mean time, literally tens of thousands around the world have self experimented and verified the results themselves. Google around a bit. Even diabetics.
So, nice expose of your ignorance while jerking off on my living room coffee table. Now clean that mess up, if you please.
I know this is a really old post, but I was wondering if you could tell me if corn-derived RS is as harmless to ketosis as PS (potato) is.
I have a question which I cannot seem to find the answer to, what about raw garbanzo or black bean flour? Just mixed in water and drunk. Is this a good source of RS (and fiber) if it was not heated up, although I know cooked beans are a good source of RS too but the raw flour should be even better since the heat has not broken up some of RS in the cooking. I am trying to find other ways to get a concentrated source of RS instead of PS since I am allergic to it and the flour from beans has other nutrients in it too not to mention protein.
I am just very surprised no one has talked about it before, unless I could have missed it cause this whole site is just so big. I know some people are concerned about the phytic acid part of it but I am not sure how much of a concern that is. Any comments would be appreciated
Dude or dudess, perhaps it’s because potatoes are totally benign compared to the minefield that could be some raw legumes.
I’m almost certain that a sensitivity to potatoes comes from not eating potatoes.
I’m also almost certain it’s easy to get through it by pushing through and eating potatoes rather than trying to be “Bulletproof.”
Sorry if you don’t get the joke.
Other good sources of RS include green banana flour, plantain flour, and Hi-Maize resistant starch. Soon Tim Steele will tell us how good they are.
Just want to thank you all for the comments, exactly what I was looking for to begin.
What is PS??