To catch up, perhaps a dozen or more posts, thousands of comments from hundreds of people around the world self experimenting. No, you do not have to “wait for the ‘science,'” because self experimentation is science. And it’s arguably the best because since it’s self, that means it applies to you and only you. You get to do this and see for yourself.
OK, today, a rather sizable and meaty post . It’s a guest post by “Tatertot Tim”; and as everyone knows, the prime mover in the whole resistant starch awareness finally making its way into Paleo, Primal, Perfect Health Diet, and low carb circles. This is what we have all been waiting for. How does the gut flora of a habitual resistant starch consumer compare to that of a SAD eater, or, even an LC eater?
To review the problem for low carbers: Sorry low carbers, your microbiome is just not that into you, by Jeff Leach, prime mover at The American Gut Project.
~~~
Hey, Richard – I think I can provide some good closure on our grand RS experiment. Thanks for giving me so much wiggle room and taking the chance that this might blow up in YOUR face. My liability was extremely limited, but if people would have started dropping like flies after eating potato starch, you’d have been in deep doo-doo.
I think what we did was nothing short of miraculous. People embraced the idea and gave it a shot. What we saw was impressive improvements in insulin sensitivity, body temperature, skin conditions, bowel movements, sleep, and mood. To me, the best thing to come out of this was the use of potato starch and plantains (dried or flour). We researched the hell out of RS rich foods, and I still think we need to be eating them, too, but the purer forms of RS are what was missing.
This was the very first RS post we did back in April. I am still haunted by the very first comment this post generated:
“I’d tend to respect Michael Eades over a potato farmer hiding behind the handle ‘tatertot.’ Guess I’m wacky that way.”
Wow! A lot of water under the bridge since then, huh? We even, almost, got Dr. Eades to say he likes RS in a roundabout way! Norm Robillard, though not in love, gave RS a good, hard look. I noticed that Anastasia never finished her two-part series on the stupidity of RS, either. I figure I must have put thousands of comments on dozens of blogs and forum posts since February this year. With your help, we seemed to hit critical mass in September and since then RS has been turning up everywhere, all with rave reviews.
There were Mark Sisson’s RS mention, Dr. BG’s RS blogs, Chris Kresser’s interview with Jeff Leach, and the thousands of supportive comments on blogs and forums everywhere.
Anyway, shortly after we got started with all this, I realized how intricately all the RS stuff was tied to gut health. I started reading about gut microbes and realized I had no clue on the subject, and no way of knowing if RS was effecting my microbes the way the studies implied it would. Then in May or June, I read about the American Gut Project and my wife and I sent off a samples of our poo to be analyzed. I wish I could have sent a sample off before supplementing RS, but it was too late.
Here are my results, 2 years The Primal Blueprint
Tim
The American Gut Project just sends you a poster with these charts on it, it’s up to you to decipher. I spent a couple hours with my best friend Mr. Google and looked up all the microbes listed. Here are a few things that really jumped out at me:
- Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes (brown and orange on bar chart) – normal gut bugs for everybody, this is the bulk of everyone’s poop. These can contain pathogens as well as beneficial microbes. Nothing special here to see. It is the section under these that is of huge interest.
- On the colored bar-chart, which compares me to others who tested themselves, I had vastly more Actinobacteria than anyone else in the study. Actinobacteria is a common bacteria found in soil and in the human gut and is responsible for synthesizing hundreds of natural antibiotics. Bifidobacteria belongs to this Phyla.
- Also from the colored bar-chart, I had vastly less Proteobacteria than anyone else. This type includes a wide variety of pathogens such as Escheria, Salmonella, Vibrio (cholera), and h. pylori.
- From the ‘abundant and enriched’ table, you can see that my Bifidobacterium count is 11 times the test group average! Bifido, as you may recall, is the most beneficial of all gut microbes–it’s the basis of most probiotics. And I had taken absolutely no probiotic supplements except for some kefir and yogurt. Apparently, bifido liked the home I created with RS.
- Paraprevotellaceae was 10 times the average. This is a beneficial microbe who ferments plant matter into short-chain fatty acids.
- Lachnobacterium was 9 times the average. Not much is written about it, but it ferments glucose primarily to lactic acid along with minor amounts of acetic and butyric acids. So, I’ll take it!
- Also, Anaerotruncus was 6 times higher, this is another producer of butyrate and acetate.
The report also noted I had some rare types of microbes…
- Victivallaceae – A producer of acetate
- Limnobacter – A bacteria normally only found in high mountain glaciers, a tribute to my Arctic life, I suppose.
- And my favorite—because I am often thought to be a ‘slacker’—Slackia – a producer of a substance known as Equol. This is what I read about Equol:
“However, only about 30-50% of people have intestinal bacteria that make equol. Equol may have beneficial effects on the incidence of prostate cancer, bone health skin health and physiological changes during menopause, including reducing severity and frequency of hot flashes and stiffness in the neck and shoulder. Other benefits may be realized in treating male pattern baldness, acne, and other problems because it functions as a DHT blocker.”
How cool is that?
But what is almost spooky, are some remarks from a later blog we did. In the Diabetic Mashed Potatoes blog, I made these claims, that at the time, were purely speculative on my part:
“Generally speaking, though, we can say there are two basic types of gut microbes that we can impact with resistant starch: Bifido-bacteria and Entero-bacteria.
“Bifido-bacteria are the good kind. When you eat yogurt or sauerkraut for its probiotic strains of microbes, you are ingesting Bifido-bacteria. Bifido-bacteria comprise 90% of the gut bacteria of breast-fed babies, but only about 5% of adult gut flora.
“Entero-bacteria are the bad kind. Though many are harmless, some of the more well-known species are Salmonella, E. Coli, and Enterobacter, which is closely related to obesity. Some of these type of bacteria can release endotoxins and cause ‘toxic shock syndrome’. Many of these types of bacteria are also resistant to antibiotics, making them very difficult to deal with. Entero-bacteria can survive in a wide range of environments, even outside the body, and feed on many different food sources–sometimes resulting in extreme gaseous events.
“Studies such as this one have demonstrated that ingesting approximately 33g/day of resistant starch lead to major changes in gut microflora in as little as one week and at 3 weeks, Bifido-bacteria strains had increased up to 10-fold from baseline levels to almost 20% of total gut flora!”
And it’s EXACTLY what my Am Gut shows. My Actinobacteria (family containing Bifidobacteria) is about 18% of my total gut flora, and Enterobacteria (aka Proteobacteria), is a barely discernible thin line.
When I click on the links I used for those claims, I see this about these bacteria types:
“Bifidobacteria -A natural part of the bacterial flora in the human body and have a symbiotic bacteria-host relationship with humans…promotes good digestion, boosts the immune system, and produces lactic and acetic acid that controls intestinal pH. These bacteria also inhibit the growth of Candida albicans, E. coli, and other bacteria that have more pathogenic qualities than Bifidobacteria. Exert a range of beneficial health effects, including the regulation of intestinal microbial homeostasis, the inhibition of pathogens and harmful bacteria that colonize and/or infect the gut mucosa, the modulation of local and systemic immune responses, the repression of procarcinogenic enzymatic activities within the microbiota, the production of vitamins, and the bioconversion of a number of dietary compounds into bioactive molecules.”
“Enterobacteria (Proteobacteria) – Many members of this family are a normal part of the gut flora found in the intestines of humans and other animals…Some enterobacteria produce endotoxins. Endotoxins reside in the cell cytoplasm and are released when the cell dies and the cell wall disintegrates. Some members of the Enterobacteriaeceae produce endotoxins that, when released into the bloodstream following cell lysis, cause a systemic inflammatory and vasodilatory response. The most severe form of this is known as endotoxic shock, which can be rapidly fatal.”
Now, here are my wife’s results…keep in mind she eats a pretty straightforward SAD diet, has been on antibiotics nearly her whole life, and underwent a major surgery 6 months prior to sample. She has GERD and takes Nexium..She eats very few raw veggies, no fermented foods, lactose intolerant, and no extra RS. She’s thin and has good glucose regulation.
Tim’s Wife
[Editor’s note: I did not include the bar chart for Tim’s wife because it looks precisely like all those to the right of Tim in his chart above, so no real info. Hopefully, AmG improves that chart by providing higher resolution for the bottom 1/4″ that counts the most.]
Without boring you to death, here is the theme: There is absolutely no Bifidobacteria anywhere on the report. Her rare species are all pathogens, most that are normally found in the mouth and sinus and not the gut.
Peptococcaceae, is 19 times higher than the average. The link says of it:
“Carbohydrates may or may not be fermented by these organisms, which produce gas, principally CO2 and usually H2, from amino acids, or carbohydrates, or both. They are found in the mouth and in intestinal and respiratory tracts of humans and other animals; they are frequently found in normal and pathologic human female urogenital tracts.”
~~~
Thanks Tim. Alright folks, what do you make of that? While not perfect—because we don’t know what his gut flora was like before any of this, or to what extent it was changed by the PB and PHD diets vs. the addition of supplemental RS—it appears the writing is on the wall, especially integrating this. On the other hand, Tim had read enough animal and human studies on RS to predict his results, and the results confirmed that prediction. Moreover, the fact that he has higher counts of some good bacteria and lower counts of bad than anyone else in the study is pretty eye opening.
…And we don’t—yet—know what his wife’s would be were she to decide to go on a Paleo/PHD, targeting RS for some period as Tim has. Hopefully we will. You hold the world in the palm of your hands, wife of Tim :) Thank you so much for allowing him to put your results out there.
So really, the gold standard would be for some folks considering going on a Paleo or Perfect Health Diet who now eat pretty standard, and send off a test before starting. Do it for three months, send off another test, then begin supplementing RS a 4TBS per day for three months and send off another sample.
Any volunteers?
sootedninjas 
tatertot 
Bernhard 
Nick 
Ash Simmonds 
mckohtz
Great stuff, Tim & Richard! I will soon submit a sample.
Is it weird that I suddenly want to know what your poop looks like?
to compliment the RS, what would be the best probiotic to take to even come close to Tim’s gut flora profile.
I’ve been eating on a consistent basis full fat plain European style yogurt from Trader’s Joe. I would think that will NOT be enough.
I’m also been making my own creme fraiche (1 pint Heavy Whipping Cream + 1 tbs of yogurt)
Many have mentioned that my poop resembles that of a mountain gorilla.
@sootedninja – At the time of the sample, I had never in my entire life taken a commercial probiotic supplement, except for a very limited amount of yogurt and kefir, but was eating quite a bit of home made sauerkraut and store bought kimchee. I think if someone, such as my wife, who knows they have very poor microbial profile wanted to do something about it, they would take a variety of probiotics, especially those containing soil-based organisms and bifidobacteria. Many, like my wife, cannot tolerate milk, so yogurt is out of the question. In that case, supplements and fermented foods are your only options.
However, most of the probiotic species that live in our gut are found naturally in the environment. Eating organic fruit, minimally washed veggies, and not being too anal about handwashing shoul introduce most of the probiotics to your system. A sustained program of RS consumption will create an environment favorable to probiotic growth and crowd-out pathogens. That’s in all the studies–and displayed in my results.
Hard to think of any food more “paleo” than RS and dirt. It made up a year round base 20% of diet during human gut evolution. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=565763050175930&set=a.320702151348689.74407.235960469822858&type=1&relevant_count=1
Time for the so-called paleo/primal “experts” to put up or shut up? Paleotards would do well to start asking their self appointed gurus to start ‘splainin’ themselves?
Interesting, latest studies on RS are looking at both microbiota and gene expression. Results are what Tim predicts:
-increase in healthy gut microbial groups
-decrease in proteobacteria and potentially pathogenic microbial groups
-increased colonic and plasma SCFA
-blunted glucose, insulin, and GLP-1 response
but the gene expression is, now, the interesting stuff:
-increase energy metabolism
-better immune system regulation
In the in vivo study, that Tim links above, it is the RS4 that causes the 20-30% bifido to appear in subjects guts, I’d love to see a SAD dieter eat a bunch of fibresym bread for a week and do some before and afters. They also label Hi-maize as RS2, which is interesting. Learn something every day.
Future gut results that would be great to see:
-low carb “paleo” self-appointed “expert”
-SAD dieter + RS4
-Hadza HG
-Sardinia Blue Zone village centenarian
first off I would like to thank you again for giving me a very valid reason to bring back rice to my life. as I mentioned in a previous comment I’m Asian and I eat rice for breakfast, lunch and dinner BUT I’ve have taken that out of my diet in the last 2 years following a LC diet. Don’t get me wrong I’m still keeping LC Paleo to my lifestyle because it did wonders, now I’m tweaking that diet to include resistant starch. Not to mention bananas, sweet potatoes and beans which was always part of my Asian heritage diet.
I have my best lunch today as far as I can remember, grass fed beef, pastured eggs, plate of steamed green veggies. I always have this combo except for today….. drum roll please … it includes garlic fried rice. The first bite was the best as childhood memories came back flowing in my mind as I close my eyes chewing on that garlic fried rice remembering how I enjoy so much this food. :)
In regards to Probiotics, I’ll search out a good supplement for now and use it for 30 to 60 days just to kick start the process to go hand in hand with resistant starch. gotta get kimchee again, I do love this food, just kinda turned off the store kimchee looking at the ingredients full of preservatives.
As being Asian Filipino, we do use fermented fish sauce and those dirty looking fermented anchovy a lot.
Regards…..
@sootedninjas – lol I’m a potato farmer and I didn’t eat potatoes for 2 years! Crazy, huh?
@yien
After publishing this I was wondering, given the different microbiota in different parts of the planet, is that all a result of human evolution or are marked differences in human evolution and cultural norms better explained by preceding microbiotic evolution (which happens far more rapidly).
Hi Tim – This is great info… thanks for sharing…
Besides your apparently stellar microbiome, have you noticed any health gains or changes since incorporating the potato starch?
Cheers!
Meredith
Love it. What would be really cool is to see some analysis on how gut bacteria correlate with medical conditions. For example, do fat people have a deficiency in a certain microbe etc. You could then test the same people after they have repopulated their butts with good microbes.
BTW Tim, did you just get the $99 package?
I’d love to see Sisson, Devany and Moore’s profiles.
Do you send in a whole turd or just a sample?
What are the implications of eating RS if you have tested positive for SIBO? It is “not allowed” on any SIBO diets like SCD or Cedar-Sinai diet. If you have a low motility, a factor in SIBO, what effect might the RS have in the SI?
FYI,
I was VLC for a year and when I saw that post in April I hopped on the wagon, off the wagon then back on for good. I wanted to see the effects first hand.
I do not sample blood or anything like that. My body is real sensitive as I have pretty nasty arthritis and psoriasis. I am like the canary in a mine. If I get my hands on something disagreeable I will know within 24 hours.
It did not make things worse, in fact I have a better general over all feeling of well being. Better sleep. Never really feel hungry more of a need to eat as body wants the food. Not a stomach grumble. My skin feels great and my friends seriously wonder what I have done as my fine wrinkles are all but gone.
I do a few things to amend the PS. I toss in a pure sulfur mix as well some powdered Vit C. Adds to the flavor. I also mix in an egg yolk or two on occasion plus raw milk kefir. I do those on heavy work out days.
I do sweet potatoes as well and greenish bananas. I peel and then slice the sweet pots in to 3/8 slices. Boil them to death and then toss the slices in to the fridge for at least 24 hours. When I eat them I toss some raw unfiltered honey on them and a bath that with coconut butter and a dash of nutmeg or ginger.
I am making weekly strength and endurance gains so I know I am good on my protocol.
n=1
if you listen very carefully to the feedback of what your body is telling you THEN you will know exactly what to do. gut feeling. pun intended :)
@bornagain – This was the $99 test. There are a couple others, I may do a more expensive test next time if it shows a more complete profile. You just have to send in a q-tip swiped across some used TP. It’s a really easy collection procedure, not gross at all.
@Jan – I think RS is a non-issue in SIBO, except that it probably helps cure it. I’d like to make these points:
1. RS has the proven ability to ‘mop up’ stray bacteria–good and bad.
2. It takes upwards of 4 hours for RS eating bacteria to begin digesting (fermenting) RS. Food does not stay in the small intestine that long.
3. The digestion (fermentation) of RS is a 2 or 3 step process involving several different bacteria, the chance that all of these different co-feeders are present in the small intestine is improbable.
4. SIBO is a problem of total gut dysfunction more so than simply a bit of bacteria growing out of place. By the time SIBO can occur, lots of damage has been done. Step 1 needs to be overall healing, not removing the one thing (RS) that offers a complete recovery.
When I started supplementing potato starch 10 months ago, I no doubt had SIBO, though undiagnosed. I had bouts of heartburn and indigestion I self-treated with low-carb and Tums. The potato starch caused me absolutely no discomfort and I now eat lots of carbs with no problems. I have not had any indigestion or heartburn pretty much since day 1 of supplementing potato starch.
Tatertot, I see your comments now and then and find your input intelligent and optimistic. Thanks!
Jan
I am am open to the possibility that SIBO is a fake disease. Just as for myself, GERD was absolutely not too low of stomach acid (it is way high, and the only thing that will kill it is a teaspoon of baking soda with massive burps). But it’s typically grains and other processed food that does that, in company with alcohol. Stop that, no probs.
I don’t really believe in SIBO and have seen little to nothing to convince me that’s it’s not just a disease to ‘explain’ what has up to this point unexplainable and now is. I don’t think we’re broken such that it requires dozens of tests and interventions.
Very informative post, thank you!
I have been eating paleo for maybe 4 years now, and look forward to adding in RS!
Richard,
Culture has many influences? However, a good test would be to put the paleo-sphere on some SBOs and RS and see if the collective “paleo” culture becomes more wiser, happier and peaceful. It could hardly go further in the other direction?
Verrrry interesting, Tim. And I will definitely take that test as well. I’ve been religiously doing potato starch for what, three months now? Or maybe a little more. The difference in sleep is the most dramatic. I actually gained a few pounds, but I’m pretty sure it’s muscle, as my strength is increasing, and my pants still fit ;=)
The sleep thing is amazing though. I sleep much more deeply and straight through most nights. If I have to get up to pee (I am 62 after all) I can barely keep my eyes open afterwards and fall right back to sleep. I used to have to read for 20-30 minutes to fall asleep again. I have to think it has something to do with cortisol, with that cortisol boost now being unnecessary because enough SCFA is being produced. At least that’s a guess.
Blood sugar is still stable, but it never really was an issue. Gut stuff in general is good. As I said before, thanks to Tim and Richard for pumping this so hard. I’m convinced it’s important. I also imagine it will peel away one layer of evolutionary intelligence, and we’ll run up against another. But that’s the fun of this kind of science.
Congrats to Tatertot and Richard for going out on a limb with this one. You’ve helped more people than you realize.
By the way, have you guys watched the latest TED Talk that was posted this month about the evolution of the human brain?
A group of researchers examined the data of why “cooking” foods allowed our primate ancestors to leap beyond other primates and develop an advanced high-neuron, and high energy brain and cortex.
A must watch for those who are curious as to what cooking did for our species and our brains:
http://www.ted.com/talks/suzana_herculano_houzel_what_is_so_special_about_the_human_brain.html
It makes me wonder when RS became a major component of our ancestral diet.
I just wanted to add some input regarding SIBO and RS. I have SIBO/fructose malabsorbtion/Fodmap intolerances. I am coming from a longtime vegetarian and then vegan diet to about 5 months of a vlc paleo diet. The only starch I was eating during this time was green peas and I never ate more than 200 grams of peas a week I ate about 75 grams of vlc vegetables and 3/4 pound of meat and 70ish % calories from fat daily during this period.
About a month ago I added white potatoes to my diet and noticed an immediate improvement in body composition and energy levels. I went from 5’7 145 pounds to 138 pounds while eating an average of 150 grams of potatoes everyday in the first 2 weeks while keeping my intake of low carb vegetables, and meat the same while adding more fat. I also started to eat potato starch during this time although not everyday. The potato starch definitely did not make sibo or any of my conditions worse but I can not say I noticed any benifit from the potato starch. Although, I was cooking all of my potatoes in ways which yield higher amounts of RS as per the advice on this blog. The last 2 weeks I have substituted white rice for potatoes and lowered my intake to around 100 grams starch/day as something about the potatoes was bothering me although I don’t think they were feeding sibo. I have usually been freezing rice after I cook it and then eating it as fried rice. During these 2 weeks I have also been eating 2-4 tbs potato starch everyday. I still can not really attribute anything to the potato starch, haven’t had any farting episodes, but I plan to continue eating it for the next couple of months and if you also have sibo definitely do not avoid RS or starch in general. I cant say the RS helped but it definitely didn’t hurt any of my conditions and i’ve only had improvements from adding starch/RS to my diet.
@Richard Nikoley, I’m inclined to agree. I have been LCP for two years and then added white rice, per PHD, felt much better. However, a low absorption of nutrients from my nutrient-dense diet persisted. I had no other gastro symptoms. Told I have a mild SIBO case due to an increase in hydrogen on the lactulose breath test. Methane was low. I was told no sugar or starches and low residue diet. Out here looking for answers trying to heal my gut! Thanks.
@tatertot I read your posts on RS, recently and I had Bob’s PS on the shelf. Added it to the pumpkin pie recipe yesterday. Thanks for the list of benefits. I’m going to continue raising my intake. I do have gut dysfunction that is the root cause of a chronic health issue. So, RS is definitely worth trying. I did find PS online, that is unmodified and certified organic (Abe’s Market-free shipping). Reading all the info I can, thanks!
DuckDodgers, remember that PS and many other RS types are raw vegetable starches in powder form. Cooking would diminish the RS content (although subsequent freezing would restore some). So the cooking argument does not really seem to apply to RS. It applies to meats, legumes, and grains, however.
I am in for the experiment! I sent my sample to American Gut a few months ago while i had severe gut issues, sibo confirmed by breath test. I just started the RS routine with some prescript assist. So far so good, seem hungrier than ever and am ready to double my amount. Do you think 3 months is enough time? I also started bovine colostrum and VSL#3 to speed gut healing.
Just wondering how your progress has been Ann. I have very similar issues and have just started Prescript assist and RS. I’m wondering how long it will take to heal. Have you “healed” yet?
Renee
I am sorry to report that i started getting joint pain in my hands especially but other joints as well. Joint pain was never one of my issues so decided to stop the potato starch to see if it was nightshade related. After a week or so, the pain started going away and now is pretty much gone except in my left thumb! So, i have been eating the plantain chips and rice and still taking the psyllium husk at night along with the prescript assist. I should also add that the SIBO symptoms were gone before i started this. I got off track with the holidays so am recovering from that (chocolate). I should say i travelled form a week and ate at restaurants almost nightly and did OK. Hang in there!
Ann, I am having similar issues like you in my left knuckle I believe are from PS. It is strange because I never had any nightshade allergies that I know of my entire life and now this. I have been hoping that my system would get used to it by now and the pain would go away but it hasn’t happened in the 2+ months so far.
It would be a bummer if I am forced off PS because I love the results so much. I have not tried plantain flour so far and I hope it will work for me and the benefits will be similar to PS. I still have a lot of PS left in my pantry so I will continue to take it since the pain is manageable except when I do pull-ups where I have to give up much short of my max limit.
T-Nat
T Nat,
Why risk making it worse and possibly irreversible?
Give the plantain flour a try.
T-Nat
Could you consider to add Natto as well?
“Natto is rich in vitamin K. It contains large amounts of vitamin K2, which is involved in the formation of calcium-binding groups in proteins, assisting the formation of bone and preventing osteoporosis. Vitamin K1 is found naturally in leafy greens, seaweed, liver, and some vegetables, while vitamin K2 (Menatetrenone) is found in fermented food products such as cheese, miso, and Nattō.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natt%C5%8D#Health_benefits
Peace.
Are you highly allergic to sulfites? They are apparently present at the Bob’s RM plant, though not an ingredient of the product: http://www.allergyfreegirl.com/products/bobs-red-mill-potato-starch-24oz
Tim, I am actually going to try Vitamin K2 and continue on PS for some more time before totally giving up on it. I read about the osteoarthritis and K2 connection(benefits) here at FTA a couple of days ago. I already knew about how K2 acts as a traffic cop for calcium absorption and it now makes sense about the arthritis connection. Any suggestions on a brand?
Another option like you suggested would be Nattokinase and/or Serropeptase.
T-Nat
Phil, I don’t think I am allergic to sulfites as I am a regular red wine drinker and it has not been a problem.
T-Nat
Also @Paleophil, is there a proven link between sulfites and joint pain/arthritis? If so, is it only sulfites or any sulfur compound? The reason I ask is because I also take MSM (organic sulfur) although I am pretty sure the knuckle pain started before I went on MSM.
T-Nat
I haven’t heard of a link between sulfites and joint pain. I just coincidentally had read about the sulfite issue and mentioned it in case it might be an issue. Some studies suggested that MSM is actually helpful for arthritis when glucosamine and chondroitin are consumed with it, IIRC.
Why don’t you mix and match potato starch with plantain flour. Can you get Maize starch as well? Use all 3 by using potato starch one, plantain flour the next and Maize starch the 3rd day.
I am trying to incorporate as many starch sorts as possible, because fixating on only one will cause problems again further down the line.
Let’s face it, it was our one-sided diet that got us where we are today, so varying our RS sorts can only benefit our gut flora.
Ha! We came up with that idea in like the very first post. just haven’t talked about it much. I think these starches all make a great mix:
Potato, tapioca, plantain flour, mung bean, and maybe even buckwheat flour and rice flour.
Besides that, also eat beans, rice, spuds, sweet potatoes, yams, plantains, taro, cassava, and any other starchy tuber you can find and learn to cook with. There are lots of good ones, just not many of us are familiar with them.
Tim, do you have any recommended commercial probiotic formulations? Preferably with iHerb link. And if you could comment as to why you like it, that’d be greatly appreciated :)
Nick – iHerb has good stuff if you got the money. The only probiotic I have ever bought online is iHerb Probiotic-3 which has 3 strains of soil-based organisms. I also have a bottle of Phillips ‘Colon Health’ which has two bifido strains and a lacto strain.
If you want to buy the best, get the one that has the most separate strains of bifido and lacto. If you want to really diversify your gut, get one that contains several SBO’s. If you are immune system compromised, stay away from SBOs.
Eat lots of fermented food, too.
Maybe Dr. BG can answer better.
Tim
Nick~
Seriously I think you should stand in line to lick either Richard’s or Tim’s butt for the best probiotics!
Have you heard of the new pharmaceutical invention of poop pills? They are sourced from healthy babies I heard but why not the healthiest Am Gut donors?
I’d concur with the brands mentioned here on this thread — I like C butyricum because combined with resistant starch one study showed there is significant reduction in colon rectal cancer risk, whereas RS alone or probiotic alone were not in toxin-rodent models. When fed and populating the gut, C butyricum will cum and FLOOD YOUR RECTUM WITH COMBINED ACETATE, PROPIONATE AND BUTYRATE. ;)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14695445
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-AOR-Advanced-Series-Probiotic-3-Natural-Probiotic-Formula-90-Veggie-Caps/43463
In another study with RS feeding the authors said “It is also feasible that although total numbers of clostridia in the gut were not significantly affected by CrystaLean, the resistant starch diet may have favoured certain species, such as Clostridium butyricum, which exhibit enhanced butyric acid production compared with other species.”
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.1999.00696.x/full
“Clostridium butyricum, an enterobacterium, produces high
levels of short chain fatty acids that have been reported to
be important in intestinal physiology. Two studies have
been reported in rodents, to examine the effect of this
microorganism. In the first, a C. butyricum derivative was
tested in a DSS-colitis model successfully [121], while
Okamoto et al.studied the M588 strain and demonstrated
that it attenuated intestinal inflammation and suggested
that oral administration of C. butyricum may be useful
instead of butyrate enema in the treatment of UC [122].”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291386/pdf/bcp0065-0453.pdf
As for MSM.
I’ve had extreme chronic pain for about 2 decades now (CFS/ME, Fibro, neuropathy, MCS, bone pain) and in my experience, 5ml of MSM (1 teaspoon) gives me the same pain relief as an ENDONE does.
There are quite a few things VERY good for pain relief that do not come from a pharmaceutical company (damiana, tribulous, threonine, GABA, Brahmi, Schisandra, Mucuna, Circumin)… and instead of knowing about these other choices (most of which work better and are safer), they only know about the opiates (which of course they refuse to give you) and the NSAIDS (which destroy the liver).
I have extreme tooth decay (started rapidly after having perfect teeth until 15 year ago when I got CFS/FMS/MCS) and guess what? One of the (many) amino acids people with Fibro/CFS are low in is “Threonine”. It just ha[[ens that “Threonine” (aside from making your muscles relax) is needed to make *any* tooth enamel. No great wonder that people with CFS/MCS suddenly have terrible teeth – the can’t make tooth enamel.
Incidentally, CFS/FMS *definitely* cross over into SIBO territory. Prescript Assist has done wonders for my wife’s pain issues, and when you have the wrong flora in the gut, you wind up with a pro-inflammatory system, and unable to absorb the amino acids that are needed for health (my health issues started right after a large scale exposure to RoundUp/Glyphosphate – which kills off healthy gut flora)
Mind you low Threonine has been known as too low in people with FMS/CFS since the early to mid 1980s, and yet NOBODY (not even the specialists) bother to tell their FMS/CFS patients to supplement Threonine in order to keep their teeth (idiots).
But then the same docs and dentists, when PRESENTED with facts concering Threonine and the fact that their patients have terrible teeth (and that SIBI often comes with bad teeth) – they just disregard the science they have been handed, and *instead* continue to blame their patients for their own bad teeth (their eating habits and oral hygiene) … blaming them for the fact that their teeth break off when eating soft white rice, when they did not do that in the past.
I wish that more than 5% to 10% of doctors were actual scientists… but they are not. Some surveys put that at 2%.
More and more I believe that the FIRST degree a doc/dentist needs to have before moving on to medication/dental school, is a BARE MINIMUM of a masters in premed/biochemistry, so that they are not idiots… with a strong accent on the ‘scientific method’.
Guess I am just tired of mentioning body parts (liver detox pathways, etc) to my doctor and getting a ‘blank stare’ because they have no idea what the cytochrome P450 system is, or what the Temporal lobes are, or the white matter in the prefrontal cortex.
How do these people manage to graduate? My degrees are all in I.T. & accounting and yet I know more than than they do about medical topics (which scares me).
In response to “Sulphites” and bad/painful reactions.
Not all reactions that are (highly) unpleasant, arethere to tell you that a thing “should not” be taken by you.
Sulphites are natural detoxification items. If a person has a high “body burden” of poisons (perhaps due to where you lived as a child… which is my problem) … then raising up the amount of natural sulphur in your diet (broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, MSM) will cause you to have a very unpleasant “healing crisis” (herxheimer reaction) and feel sick.
This does not mean you should never have that item in your diet, it just means you can’t handle a lot of it all at once. It needs to be a very slow increase.
For Example :
It is quite common for people who have “Multiple Chemical Sensitivity” to have a very high “body burden” and therefore need to be *VERY* careful when they add in detoxifiers like : Milk Thistle, Noni Juice, MSM, L-Glutamine, nebulized Glutathion, B12, etc. When my wife started on Dr Pall’s protocol for MCS (which works by the way) she had to use very tiny amounts of nebulized glutathione (etc) when she started out… because her detoxification pathways were not able to handle high doses.
MSM decreases joint pain and allergies. However if a person has a high toxic load then they CAN have a “herxheimer reaction” to the sudden increase in natural sulphur. Any increase in detoxifiers can cause a person to feel bad, because they are dumping more poison than they can process. The answer (normally) is to lower your dose, and start with more caution.
@DuckDodgers IDK, something does NOT jive BUT I can’t pinpoint why. our primate ancestors prolly did not cook everyday. they be lucky to eat everyday. it’s more likely what we ate and not because we cook.
“To review the problem for low carbers: Sorry low carbers, your microbiome is just not that into you, by Jeff Leach”
I think Leach is doing great things, this article isn’t one of them.
The headline act is touting stuff about “low carb” but then it’s mostly about fiber and resistant starch? Both of which you can get plenty of on LC – the question in the end is, should you…?
From: http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1h6ibk/great_study_on_gut_bacteria_and_potential_lchf/
||As fermentation drops, so to does the byproducts of fermentation which include short chain fatty acids (primarily acetate, butyrate, propionate), organic acids, and gases like hydrogen.
|
|Funny that you can get butyrate from butter. The Prevotella bacteria (the bad guys) produce hydrogen and you don’t want that. It’s a major cause of GERD.
|
||less acidic environment means acid sensitive groups of bacteria, like those in the Phylum Proteobacteria, which includes a who’s who of bad guys like strains of E. Coli, Salmonella, Vibrio, Helicobacter, might bloom – not a good thing
|
|Those bacteria feed of sugars, especially refined sugars. Stomach acid pH is lowered by eating a low starch diet, so I wouldn’t be too concerned with killing the bacteria.
|
||A bit of a paradox in all of this is the increased likelihood that a low carb microbial community will most certainly lead to increased gut permeability…
|
|Actually, he’s right. Ironically, your gut needs some irritation or it will stop producing as much mucus, so veggies help with that.
|
||In addition, as pH shifts away from acidic, the genus Bacteroides can also bloom as well, gaining an ecological niche in this less acidic environment courtesy of a low carb diet. For those of you keeping score, many talk about the American gut in general being dominated by Bacteroides as a function of our high fat, high sugar diet.
|
|You want your gut to be dominated by Bacteroides. It’s when it’s dominated by Prevotella that you have a problem.
|
|A chart on how to grow different bacteria
|
|http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3368382/figure/F1/
|
|The biggest issue I have with that article is the pathetic correlation between BMI and % fat from calories. When you have a 40 point variation in BMI at a single % fat (that is in the middle of your data) and an R2 of 0.07, you have no correlation.
And here: http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1rjaym/science_keto_bad_for_gut_fauna/
|It’s all speculation.
|
|The lynchpin of the whole hypothesis seems to be a rise in pH (less acidic) on low carb which could lead to increases in bad bacteria like E. coli:
|
||A less acidic environment means acid sensitive groups of bacteria, like those in the Phylum Proteobacteria, which includes a who’s who of bad guys like strains of E. Coli, Salmonella, Vibrio, Helicobacter, might bloom – not a good thing.
|
|But studies on low carb say no change in pH and no increase in E. coli:
|
||Faecal form, pH, ammonia concentration and numbers of coliforms and Escherichia coli did not change with either diet.
||
||Brinkworth GD, et al. “Comparative effects of very low-carbohydrate, high-fat and high-carbohydrate, low-fat weight-loss diets on bowel habit and faecal short-chain fatty acids and bacterial populations.” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224658
I think the whole RS thing is interesting, also far and away a healthier option than the average refined carb diet, but the evidence that you’re better off with it as opposed to not eating starch at all is simply not compelling.
BTW, sold my Lotus 111R yesterday. :(
“the evidence that you’re better off with it as opposed to not eating starch at all is simply not compelling.”
I agree, I never want to improve; systemic immunity response, colon cancer risk factors, resistance to disease, colonic and plasma SCFA, glucose response, blood pressure regulation, insulin response, mineral absorption, leptin regulation, and decrease pathogens. Not even once.
Thanks Richard and Tatertot Tim for all the work you did on resistant starch, including all the criticism you put up with. The results have been outstanding for you and me and many others. You’ve helped reveal a big missing piece in the Paleo puzzle.
Is there a link to an article about what your Resistant Starch Diet looks like?
@Ash Simonds, “the evidence that you’re better off with it as opposed to not eating starch at all is simply not compelling.”
You want to know what is not compelling? An argument based on a few articles you cherry picked supporting a view with really weak tangents like (gut pH) but not address the multitude of studies that have shown all the benefits that @yien mentioned above.
@Steven – Tell me more about the sulfur you add to your starch mix, how much, what form, why, and what benefits. In any test I always seem to score low in sulfur.
Thanks.
Super interesting. So what’s the best way to try this? Just take 4 Tbsp/day of potato starch? How should that be taken — mixed into water? Hopefully there’s a way that doesn’t involve using a blender…
And I gather it shouldn’t be cooked, right? Does that mean even warm water is bad for this, and it must be mixed in cold water?
Thanks!
@Ann-I was recently confirmed SIBO positive, as I wrote in my post above. I have been on the SCD and taking a gi pro health probiotic. How are you taking the RS? What type of diet are you eating? Have you gotten your results from the sample? Just curious, since we both have the SIBO factor! Thanks.
I was paleo for 3 years. Did well except a big increase in food and environmental allergies. Reintroduced grains when pregnant because it felt good to eat them. I have been eating a fairly standard American diet but low in highly processed foods and no gmos for a year, I’m not on meds and generally never take them. I volunteer! I will do a test now, do paleo for 3-4 months and then do RS. Who do I contact?
@ nopavement
This is the product I use just below. I mix my PS and TS in to a 32oz jar in equal portions. I toss in about 10 scoops of the MSM to amend the mix. Sulfur is so important but it is heat sensitive so a lot gets destroyed in cooking the veggies that contain it.
http://www.vitacost.com/mrm-msm-crystals-200-g?csrc=GPF-PA-609492220028&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw=&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=609492220028&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=609492220028&gclid=CNqWsLn1jLsCFed0QgodAE8Ang
And then I toss in a few table spoons of this Vit C as well
http://www.vitacost.com/healthforce-nutritionals-truly-natural-vitamin-c-16-75-oz-1/?prSrching=0
I do this because I travel a lot and on some days I only eat meat and a smallish salad. I take CLO as well as a daily multi-mineral.
It makes it easy to amend minerals and such this way. Toss in what ever powdered supplement for a low dose spread out for the 2-4 spoonfuls of the starch you have during the day. I take a spoonful before I eat, which is twice daily and then one before bed.
Also, click through this site to Amazon if you are ordering on-line. Give Richard the boost he so deservedly has earned.
@Tater, really interesting results. I prob missed it in some past post/thread but where did you get the test kit (if it is a kit) for this? Btw, some potato farmers in Idaho owe you and Richard some bucks ;-)… you guys may end up changing the look of these interesting RTB maps for North America…
Global, Interactive Roots-Tubers-Banana map: http://www.rtb.cgiar.org/RTBMaps/
If we could only get rice added to this map you could basically call it a Paleo-Safe-Carb map.
Sorry, left out legumes. RRTBL map…. Roots, Rice, Tubers, Bananas, Legumes ;-)
Going to try to catch up!
@Meredith – ‘Any health gains?’ –
I was fairly healthy to begin with, but I saw improvements in all my lipid panels, A1C, sleep, and BM regularity. I wasn’t really doing this to ‘get better’ but just because of all the evidence that points towards RS making better gut microbiome. The American Gut test was just icing on the cake.
@Richard – ‘SIBO a fake disease’
I have read enough to form the opinion that SIBO is a real problem, but also that many who think they have SIBO probably don’t. SIBO is almost impossible to dx, breath tests are misleading, but many studies show when total gut is in disarray, pathogens can take over in small intestine and cause the SIBO-associated problems (GERD, IBS, etc…). The leading remedy for SIBO-like symptoms are PPIs and antibiotics. Once you go that route, you are screwed for sure.
@DuckDodgers – ‘Ancestral Cooking and RS’
The takeaway from that article for me is that when we started cooking, we introduced another type of RS (RS3) to our evolving gut. It’s well-studied that different microbes like different RS sources. Even though we were cooking back then, I doubt they had a ‘reheat’ or ‘warmup’ button they could push and lots of cooked food was eaten cold the next day. Thanks!
@ExVegetarian – ‘Noticeable Improvements’
I put this on MDA the other day, if you go there, you can click some links that won’t transfer:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-47.html (page 47)
“I’m going to answer this hesitantly, because I hate to put ideas in people’s heads which can sometimes be more powerful than the actual physical changes.
‘Many people’ have reported that almost immediately they are sleeping better and having more vivid dreams. This has some good support in science in that many brain neurotransmitters (serotonin and dopamine) are produced in the gut by the same microbes that produce and eat butyrate. Read more here and here.
Another short-term phenomenon is the second-meal effect. But you can’t ‘feel’ it. You can see it if you are tracking BG as diabetics do. Also a lowering of FBG and A1C is seen pretty quickly.
Another shorter term, 3-6 weeks, effect is that people who are lactose intolerant find they can tolerate dairy again. YMMV
People have reported that long-standing skin problems and allergies have cleared up after a few weeks–another well-supported phenomenon.
But, more than likely, the first thing you will notice is changes in gas and bowel movements. When this happens, rest-assured that good things are happening!
I always tell people to expect nothing, and see what happens. If you are waiting anxiously, you may be disappointed. I liken supplementing RS with taking my daily K2 and D3 pills. I never notice anything, but I know it’s good for me. ”
@Jan – ‘Pumpkin Pie’ –
I did the same thing, maybe. I mixed 4TBS of potato starch in with a bowl full of cold pumpkin pie filling–no crust! Covered in Cool Whip and looked like a normal person eating a big dessert. If you cooked the RS into the pie–you did it wrong.
@Ann – ‘3 months’
3 months is plenty of time. Studies say major changes occur in 3-4 weeks, but you must realize there have been NO long term human studies on RS supplementing and gut flora. We are the first group of people in modern times to try this. My ‘gut’ feeling is that some day a recommendation will appear to eat 20-40g of RS per day, and at that level, people will have very robust gut microbiomes. Just like eating primal and exercising sets most people on a course to better health, but not everyone gets super-lean and muscular. There are genetic differences and underlying problems which make it different for everyone. But I do think that every person on the planet would benefit from a gut full of butyrate producing bacteria, large populations of bifidobacteria, and a reduction in gut pathogens…and RS is key to all those.
@Ash S. – ‘Leach Article/Butyrate from butter’
I agree the article title was misleading and sensationalist. However, the only way to counter your litany of low-carb ‘proof’ is to get in a battle of studies, and I don’t want to do that. I will give you one study, though, from 2013, that shows why colonocytes need to be fed endogenous butyrate and not exogenous (butter). The takeaway is, on a low carb diet, colonocytes are fueled by blood glucose and this puts them at a disadvantage for normal apoptosis and in a ‘high-risk’ environment for colo-rectal cancer. Study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3742201/
@Mckohtz – ‘RS diet’ –
There is no RS Diet. Most here eat a ‘Pretty Good Paleo’ diet. The Perfect Health Diet by Paul Jaminet is a good template as is Mark Sisson’s Primal Blueprint. But if you asked me to create an RS diet, it would have these elements:
Very little processed sugar, flour, vegetable oils, and chemical additives. Lots of starchy carbs, meat and fat. 20-40g of RS from food and supplemented with potato starch if needed.
@Anthony DiSante – ‘How to take PS’
Just mix whatever amount you want to take with anything that it will mix with. Some better suggestions are kefir and yogurt, also milk, almond/coconut milk, pudding, ice cream, mashed bananas, applesauce, rice pudding, sour cream, no-bake cookies, etc… The only restriction is it must NOT be heated above 130 degrees roughly or the RS in the PS will turn into regular starch.
@bethany – ‘American Gut Contact Info’
https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/4Tqx5 I did the $99 version. You can get really crazy for more money but I think the $99 test is a good sample of your gut.
Oh, forgot on that interactive map. Select under “RTB Crops” what you want to see. Notice the huge difference between “Potato Harvested” and “Potato Suitability”? Lots more land in Norte Americano to grow spuds. You can also see why cassava is more popular in certain countries. I thought it was interesting to see Spain and Italy is into plantains and cassava.
@Ash
Others might have more to say about the specifics of the various strains, etc., but what struck me was the false premise you began with: just eat butter. That was dealt with way, way back. Doesn’t matter if you eat a stick a day, it ‘aint getting to your colon where it affords the benefits we’re talking about by colonic bacteria actually producing the SCFAs for use there, on the spot, by colonocytes and such.
@Mckohtz My next post will be a dietary primer from my perspective that integrates what we now think we know about both the benefits of more starch in the diet from real foods (and, those that target RS–rice, beans, potatoes) and the addition of supplemental RS. It’s mostly written and I don’t want to push this post down the page too soon, so it’ll probably come out Monday.
Sorry Tater, Now I see the fundrazr link. -Brad-
Wow, @tatertot seriously, lactose tolerance in weeks? Ok, I’m totally in. Lactose is a huge problem in SIBO cases, whether it’s real or not, lactose can screw up digestion totally. I can’t have it in any form currently, not even 24hr yogurt I made with jersey milk. I ordered the $99 AGP kit, need to know the scoop on the poop!
What starchy carbs are you talking about, like yams, peas, corn? Do you eat white rice or brown and always cold or do you reheat? Potatoes cooked, cooled and reheated, not good? At first I’m gonna stick to the PS because I can control that amount, but I want to know how to move from that into adding real food sources.
So, yeah, I did bake the pumpkin pie from MDA’s recipe topped with organic raw homemade whipped cream…your cool whip has got to go! :-)
Thanks for all the info in your reply. Do you have a blog or website?
Jan, the good place to start is here:
https://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html
As a colitis sufferer, I wonder how RS would help me??
Tater, actually, the diet that you’re proposing doesn’t exist in Paleosphere. It is closest to the WAPF diet devised by Sally Fallon, which people think is a Paleo diet but actually isn’t. The WAPF diet is a Pre-Industrial, Neolithic diet (PIND). Now I’m seeing that it’s the only diet without any visible holes. I mean, how would you get low T3 and develop hypothyroid symptoms when legumes, fermented grains, and starches are staples? How would you develop autoimmune diseases via gut dysbiosis on a diet full of starches (and RS)? How would you get mucin or butyrate deficiency due to lack of glucose or RS and develop esophageal or colorectal cancer?
I understand that the WAPF in its early days flirted with low-carbing (and some of the contributors still may be ketogenic, low-carbers). But now I’m seeing that this is the only diet that is air-tight. One up on PHD (sans legumes or no grains except white rice). So what say you about this prototypical Pre-Industrial Neolithic Diet (PIND)? All in?
> There is no RS Diet. Most here eat a ‘Pretty Good Paleo’ diet. The Perfect Health Diet by Paul Jaminet is a > good template as is Mark Sisson’s Primal Blueprint. But if you asked me to create an RS diet, it would have > these elements:
@SpanCvan, I don’t get what you’re saying. The “Paleo” diet is not low carb by definition, though lots of people make it so. Also, it’s possible to get many of the benefits of eating low carb without much of the drawbacks and at the same time gain some of the benefits of carbohydrates by simply cycling your carb intake using different periodicities – Intermittent Fasting (eg. LeanGains, EatStopEat, etc), Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (eg. the Anabolic Diet).
Nothing against PHD, Paleo, or WAPF. They are all great templates as starting points that one can tailor to their liking, tolerance, and effectiveness.
I guess the problem for many people today, 1 out of 2 Americans having a chronic health condition, is what do you do to get back to a healthy gut?? I already paid the price for gluten and GMOs back in the day, while thinking I was eating healthy, no fast food or highly processed foods, but I got Hashimoto’s. I then moved into a totally organic, whole real food diet, Paleo-style PB, but I still have gut dysbiosis, that is a root cause for chronic health problems…food intolerances and malabsorption make healing a challenge. I have studied the WAPF diet and it is similar to Paleo, I know they argue about that! My question is, are people healing on WAPF diet? How do you get from a leaky gut to a healthy gut? I have been researching fecal transplants as a possible option to reboot my gut, but it’s in it’s infancy right now. I think this whole discussion here on RS and the AGP can give us a way to repopulate the gut with healthy bacteria and understanding what’s currently in our gut. I do think it can be done without a FT.
Thanks @spanish caravan for the link. I’m reading it all!
How has your progress been. I have same issue as you, hashimotos, leaky gut, SIBO and dairy intolerance. I’ve just started Prescript assist and resistant starch. Is your disbiosis/ leaky gut better yet?
Renee
I wonder how both of you are doing! Same issues here with celiac, leaky gut, dairy intolerance, and getting ready to ramp up Prescript Assist and RS – followed by mitochondrial and methylation support. Would love to hear about any progress you’ve experienced (or setbacks, if they apply).
Agh! Same thing going on over here. Im a lost 22 year old wondering in circles. I dont know for sure about hashi yet, but Im unfortunately suspicious of UC. Im nervous to take prescipt assist because i read they can turn pathogenic. Just started methylation support along with glutathion. No probiotics yet, just some weeding. Any advice?
Prescript assist doesn’t turn pathogenic. All old BS propaganda from people selling lacto probiotics.
Any idea how many bacterial, yeast, and fungi spores are in raw honey?
Find out in a post very soon (hint: lots).
Oh, well thats good to hear.
I cant seem to find a doctor who is knowledgeable about overgrowths of sulfur reducing bacteria. As many on here, im sure have to to experiment themselves,I’m thinking about the prescript assist route..
Should I take it for a bit before introducing RS? What about the antimicrobial tincture I just started taking?
Damn I do love and miss raw honey along with all of its spores, fungus and bacteria. Too bad I was convinced by GAPS/SCD for too long. Havent had sugar/honey/FRUIT for around 8 months. Its not cool.
Chris – Ulcerative colitis + RS, some reading for you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10647628
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17024038
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/3/493.full
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/4/1/7
From the last one:
Conclusion
A dietary analysis method is described that provides a new tool for establishing relationships between diet and disease. This method has been applied to the study of ulcerative colitis and points to sulfite and caffeine as being harmful, with thiamin and resistant starch being potentially therapeutic. For the first time, dietary guidelines for ulcerative colitis patients, including food portion sizes have been developed.
@Jan
Check Ann Marie here:
http://www.cheeseslave.com/how-i-reversed-my-food-allergies-with-probiotics/
I’d say those, in combo with RS might be a good way to give it a try.
Brad, you don’t seem to understand the genesis of Paleo and how it has evolved. Paleo started with Cordain and Wolf, whose starchless, dairy-less, grain-free, lean meats diet was by definition low-carb. They allowed fruits in and actually Cordain got a lot of mileage out of that when he distinguished Paleo from the Atkins diet. His main point was in fact that he avoided the pitfalls of Atkins by emphasizing non-starchy whole foods and avoiding saturated fat, a la lean meats found in wild. But unless you consumed fruits in amazing amounts, his diet was low carb, maybe not ketogenic but certain VLC and not likely to be above 100 grams.
Enter Robb Wolf and his Paleo Solution. Cordain trademarked “Paleo” but let his disciple use it. Wolf’s diet is basically an autoimmune diet, since Wolf himself suffers from ulcerative coliltis; he went into remission, thanks to being gluten- and dairy-free and avoiding food allergens and what he likes to call Neolithic agents of disease. But his diet was also low-carb, since no starches were allowed. Unless you ate 5-10 servings of sugary fruits, you’d be doing under 100grams of carbs, often under 50. Quite honestly, I don’t understand how people do not grasp this.
Then enter Sisson with his Primal Blueprint. Mark was more open-ended and started evolving at a faster pace than the above 2, who cornered the Paleo trademark. He started making dairy optional, made carbs more or less ad libitum based on the weight issue, had a bit different positions on oils, nuts, etc. But he only jumped on the white rice bandwagon after Jaminet and PHD came on the scene.
That was actually a watershed event in Paleosphere, as Paleo at that point was largely perceived to be starchless and grain-free; that’s when Paleo started really diverging from Jimmy Moore and the low carb camp, sparking occasional spats and civil war talks. It was actually only 2 years ago that this happened, and PHD is what spearheaded this clear divergence from low-carbing and non-starchy vegetables. At present, Paleo may be characterized as a loose group of dieters that include everything from ketogenic/vlc diets (Rosedale/Eades), fruitarians (Peats), carbs ad libitum (Sisson), and autoimmune (Wahls, Wolf). It is a loose mélange of quirky dieters, not a coherent dietary philosophy.
But this leaves out one important camp: the WAPF. As I’ve been saying, that diet is Pre-Industrial Neolithic. It is not Paleo and never was. But it may be optimal. I say so because now we know better.
As Johnny Cash says, that’s history lesson for you, Brad. Grandpa Richard can tell you more about the wars he’s fought. We’ve come a long way. And Paleo (especially low-carb Paleo) may have just been a bump in the road. But you’ll be surprised how many people think it is still the way.
Great post. I’ve been following this with great interest, as I now have adrenal fatigue, and have become intolerant of a lot of foods, including diary, which I had eaten, I “thought”, without a problem my entire life. Now, dairy, gluten, potatoes, and coffee all give me IBS which can last for weeks.
Along with the AF, I also have very high insulin/hypoglycemia and was interested in the blood-sugar affects of the PS.
So having a lot of flatulence and intestinal gas is a good thing on the PS? I have been fairly strict primal for the past couple of years, and have not experienced much gas in all that time. Suddenly, with the potato starch, I’m a regular windbag. The interesting thing is that for Thanksgiving I thickened my turkey gravy with the PS and still had the gas! ??? Apparently whatever causes that side effect doesn’t mind being heated…
My other question involves the claim that lactose intolerance was cleared up in some cases in just a matter of weeks. If a person is lactose intolerant to begin with, wouldn’t consuming dairy again simply re-damage the gut? I have been off of dairy for about nine weeks now, and I’m starting to feel better, but I really miss my cheese.
@sootedninjas
OK, not having sinangag since my last trip to the PI in 1989 (I was there for work and vacation about 30 times over the previous 5 years), I made it this morning. Wow.
I had to improvise, as I only had one clove of garlic, no green onion but yellow onion. Melted the grassfed butter in the wok, noons in until translucent, then the clove of crushed garlic til it was brown, added on the leftover rice Ben’s original parboiled, cooked in chicken stock), then a dusting of garlic powder since I was lacking enough cloves, plus a dusting of dried parsley, stirred it all up, set it to the side of the wok, then three eggs, salt and a good amount of black pepper (I love heavy fine ground pepper in fried rice), let eggs with broken yolks set up a bit before mixing them in the rice, then just a light sprinkle of soy sauce.
So damn good.
Here’s a recipe, but as it says, many many variations. Obviously, it’ the garlic that makes the dish.
http://www.thekitchn.com/recipe-filipino-garlic-fried-ricerecipes-from-the-kitchn-171352
On similar trips to Thailand, breakfast was always a plate of white rice with a fried egg or two on top, with a small bowl of a green chili concoction (chopped small green chills in probably some sort of vinegar/sugar water or something). A little bit will do it.
@Span
I loved how the paleo-sphere was up in arms about WAPF pointing out that C16:0 fat wasn’t consumed in large quantities in the paleolithic (which is correct), and then proudly accepting that paleo doesn’t have starch etc (which is incorrect). A potential issue with your PIND idea is that it might miss any potential evolutionary holes that both WAPF and “modern-paleo” currently miss (which is a lot of holes). It is also better framed in terms of a traditional longevity diet. Either way, you still miss out on any new modern research that could then add into the equation (which applies to all the above diets).
@SpanCvan, wow that’s a lot of wasted typeing. I do understand the Paleo history but I also do not care where it *was*. Why talk about where it was? Where is it now? Where has it been for the majority of people since they started doing it? The subject of Rice and PHD is beside the point because Sisson always said you should eat roots/tubers. I’ll be frank… I think you are being anal about dietary labels. Isn’t it all really about eating a more natural and hence healthy diet? Macro ratios and sources of “clean” carbs are largely a personal issue. I didn’t realize this was the Olympics of dietary labels where there has to be a clear winner. Take from each what makes sense and works for YOU. For me that’s a mix of LeanGains Primal-Blueprint-ish, PHD-ish solution minus the boatload of rice. I could give a rats-ass that Kefir or Lentils (for just two examples) did not exist during the paleolithic.
I’m still grateful for the arrival of the Paleo/Primal diets that kick started my re-entry into nutrition, health, and fitness.
“I wish I could have sent a sample off before supplementing RS, but it was too late.”
And it means your particular gut microbiome highlighted here could be a fluke. There is no way to tell whether or not it’s a consequence of your particular diet or not. This post is a great example of n=1 gone wrong.
@GetLucky
“This post is a great example of n=1 gone wrong.”
Shut your fucking piehole face, fucktard.
Then, go actually READ the post and where that is all addressed honestly.
Step 3: go fuck yourself.
lol. Something tells me that I did not possess bifidobacteria at a level 11X nearly the entire US population. I have no reason to believe that my gut microbiome was not very similar to everyone else. But, I must agree it would have been really amazing had the American Gut Project been in operation when I started RS. Hopefully I will have something better to show you with my wife’s results when she retests in a few months.
@richard Nikoley
The garlic-rice recipe looks amazing…but is the reheated, stir-fried rice RS? I’m still confused on the cold vs heated thing. I’d rather eat RS in real food, but I’m not eating raw potatoes. I would guess that potatoes are cooked first and dried in order to make PS. Are baked yams eaten hot from the oven, RS or not?
Definitely doing probiotics for healing. :-) Also, having fantastic results with 4oz of fresh wheatgrass.
Camp wars! that’s it. No matter where you go there is always the camp wars. What I mean by this is the divide-and-separate, join-my-club-it’s-better and then talk-shit-about-the-other-clubs activity. Two things I’m into besides nutrition is strength training and audio. The latter meaning high quality audio, aka “audiophile”. With weight lifting the camp wars is all about free weights versus machines and/or the ubiquitous dead-lift and back-squats versus (name any other exercise)…. or the hot topic of “old” style lifting versus CrossFit. In the audio world such games usually revolve around Digital playback versus Analog (record players) or Tube amplifiers versus Solid State or now, Digital/Chip amps. The whole low-carb versus high-carb strikes me as the same. Ditto, the Paleo/Primal versus WAPF versus PHD versus (all other diets). and on and on we go…
Quite often the important factors boil down to implementation details. The finer grain stuff that determines the effectiveness of something. Usually there is both good and bad in everything. Though certainly some things are clearly just wrong or bad ideas. Similarly it’s rare that something is perfect, so go for the common denominators first, test things out, and verify for yourself what works for you.
“Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”― Bruce Lee
@SC
“Cordain trademarked “Paleo” but let his disciple use it”
This isn’t accurate. It was originally touted sensationally but I actually went and looked up the trademarks. First of all, it’s “The Paleo Diet” that was trademarked, and only in the realm of “The Paleo Diet” supplements, not food, dietary advice, or anything of the sort.
The rest of it yea, pretty much. I was the first paleo blogger to start advocating potatoes back in like 2009 and caught endless grief over it at first. And except for ALL the paleo diet books still doing only cauliflower mash & stuff, potatoes are reasonably common amongst people fans.
@Jan
Tons of info in the preceding posts and comments if you hit that link at the very top of the post. In a nutshell, for rice, beans and potatoes, cooking greatly diminishes the RS. However, cooling or better yet, freezing forms what’s called retrograde RS. It’s a different structure than the original granules but resists just the same. Better yet, it does not break down with heating. So, the best way it to cook your stuff, cool at least 24 hours or freeze, then make your preparations from that.
@Ann
The gas is a very varied individual thing. Mine cleared up pretty quickly because I just plunged right in. I’ve found that taking the PS stirred in water 2-4T on an EMPTY stomach produces zero gas. However, if taken in conjunction (just before or after) with other food where you might get some farrago, PS seems to magnify it, and sometimes substantially.
The funniest was a big bowl of pinto beans and 4T of PS. We were very close to having another man on the moon. :)
@tatertot:
This is going to be expected. As 90% of the people see the essential writing on the wall and take interest, you will have that 10% of the TRUE BELIEVERS who will nit pick everything.
The way to know that Get Lucky is of this ilk is that there was not even the barest suggestion that this is interesting, potentially to likely ground breaking, and that here’s what we need for further confirmation (exactly as I did in the closing to the post).
No, what he wants is for everybody to not look.
And that’s why he get to fuck off all day long.
@Jan
Oops. Unfortunately, sweet potatoes and yams have little to no RS at all, even raw. Here’s the long list:
https://freetheanimal.com/2013/08/resistant-starch-content-of-foods-other-anecdote-and-miscellania.html
@Brad 1+ (both comments right above)
@richard Nikoley
I appreciate your patience with the info and links. I read stuff early on and it didn’t make much sense until I had more of the info. Now, I need to go back and plug it all in! Probably, my brain fog doesn’t help!
@yien, I’m curious about your C16:0 fat comment, did someone prove that fruit bearing palm trees did not exist during the Paleolithic, or that ancient man did not consume this high energy oily fruit? I can’t see why coconuts would have been eaten but not palm fruit.
Three years ago when I started making kefir, I was interested in finding out if the bacteria modify the gut flora on a permanent or temporary basis. There were some studies done in Japan using kefir. It would appear that the ‘beneficial, probiotic’ bacteria clear out of the colon a few days after the last kefir feed.
Like the baby poop comparison to adult poop.
@ Richard, I’ve never seen it broken down in a paper very well, but my own numbers (for L2 mitochondrial populations) are:
C18:1 dominant, C18:2 moderate, a good smattering (but not dominate) of C16:0 and then C18:0, and also minor smatterings of C16:1, C20:1, C18:3 etc.
That’s direct food. Also have a bunch of indirect C4:0 and some C3:0 etc.
Marlowe, Crittenden and others are currently looking at more exact food breakdowns (which should be required reading when finished).
Here is a lay person overview of some of their work with paleo resistant starches/non-digested products. Should end any doubt that RS is super paleo:
Hey tater tot Tim,
I know a lot of people care about weight loss, building muscle..etc, but I had a question in regards to mental functioning. Did you notice any cognitive changes from supplementing/increasing your prebiotic intake? Changes in depression, anxiety type stuff as well? Anyone else can feel free to answer and if I missed someone answering this question I apologize.
@richard your sinangag is just perfect with eggs on top. the secret is lots of garlic. my roommate hates garlic BUT I DON’T CARE. That food is heavenly. Yup fried in grassfed butter is great. tonight I’m going to stir fry it with coconut oil and next day with ghee. gotta shop for some dried beef (tapa) it goes well with fried rice. also, on the side, chop onions with chop tomatoes mixed with diced red salted duck eggs.
one more thing, I used Himalayan Pink salt instead of plain sea salt. it adds a little sweetness to the salty dish.
regards…..
Do you guys keep the bags of PS in the fridge? It says so on the bag, but just wondering.
My apologies if this has been mentioned in one of the numerous RS posts, but there’s too much to search through for an easy question.
…After a good long head-clearing hike of 2 hrs with zero water or food, shirtless in the 60ish brisk fall air, let me explain why I went off on GetLucky for those who may be unaware of how I operate.
He doesn’t know anything. Doing just the same as every other person out there that sees something that conflicts with his favorite catechism. It’s fine to say I’m not convinced, here’s how to convince me. Instead, he chalks up the very best gut microbiome yet tested by the AmGutProject over 4,000 tests to just random luck and an N=1 gone wrong. And even when some of the beneficial strains are up to 10+ times the average and the known pathogens barely register.
This is forced ignorance and I will be brutal every single time and I don’t give a fuck who it is. This has been ongoing for like 6 months, there are about a dozen posts, thousands of commenters and according to my Amazon affiliate account, somewhere over 200 folks now have purchased potato starch and there’s many others who’ve just sourced it at the local market and well over 90% of them have posted similar results in terms of the many benefits we’ve described. And, some are ringing in to say they’ll get tested as well, so we will have more data over time.
This is extraordinarily, but from someone like “Get Lucky” (how fucking ironic, eh?) we get a fucktard who thinks it’s all wrong.
Bet you didn’t expect that, eh fucktard?
@Lenny – I didn’t have any problems with depression or anxiety before hand, but I can attest to having a bit more mental clarity now than I have in a while. Whether this is from RS or just from spending so much time reading and writing and getting better sleep, who knows.
But, several important brain chemicals (neurotransmitters) are definitely made in the gut–serotonin and dopamine and I’m just learning about GABA tonight (thanks GabKad!).
@Yien – Great article you linked on Hadza tubers. I really like their simulated digestion machine,
the TNO gastro-Intestinal Model (TIM)-1
Lenny
I sure did and I’ve been getting emails for months from people saying I’m now a boring blogger. :)
excerpted:
Anxiety
A neurotransmitter that is possibly associated with anxiety is gamma amino butyric acid, or GABA. It has the action of inhibiting too much activity in the brain. Some anti-anxiety medications work to boost the activity of GABA. Once again the chemical reactions that take place in the body that produce GABA require nutrients—most notably B vitamins and magnesium. Eating sugar and refined carbohydrates deplete B vitamins. A very good strategy to ensure enough GABA production is to eat whole foods in their natural state and to avoid starch and sugar.
……………………..
I’ll assume they mean cooked starch.
not raw potato starch.
Again, I’m not saying that RS is bogus – if anyone cares to infer something I didn’t say then go ahead back to eating paste – just that the nebulous list of benefits are basically all the same ones that are available without eating the stuff as well – hence why I find it not compelling as a reason to bother eating it unless I want to.
The colorectal carcinogenesis article was a high *protein* diet, yes, excess protein has it’s own laundry list of degenerative effects – but also of note:
“rats fed with higher levels of dietary animal protein (as casein or red meat) and dietary plant protein (as soy) manifested increased colonocyte DNA damage. Feeding the rats with RS attenuated the damage”
Now, how do we know that it wasn’t just the excess protein, or using poor sources of protein (casein/soy) weren’t doing the arse damage? Too many confounders.
So yes, if you eat massive amounts of protein and get a bunch of it from dairy and soy then you should probably start fermenting fat in your arse canal pronto.
Are there any preparations of the potato or tapioca starch that aren’t a gritty experience? I’ve tried dissolving it in water and in smoothies and can’t seem to get past the texture.
Over the last few months, I’ve been eating something that is relatively close to the SAD (lots of other issues in life pushed that into place). But, I’ve been religiously using the kidney bean extract amylase-blocker. Interestingly, I’ve noticed a distinct change in my appetite cycle, even while eating SAD. For the first time in my life, I find myself unable to finish meals. I actually get full before the meal is over. And, I stay full longer than I have from anything else (except for major doses of fat in smoothies).
Given that the point of RS is to provide gut bacteria with undigested starch, I’m curious how the starch blocked from amylase breakdown compares to the raw potato starch when it comes to culturing the beneficial bacteria.
Maybe I should stick with my current regimen and do a biome test for comparison.
An amylase blocker would probably do the same thing as RS because RS is resistant to amylase.
Possibly an amylase blocker makes otherwise digestible starches indigestible.
I think though that dosing the raw potato starch provides a much larger quantity than what you may get from regular food. Which is the point of the taking the raw potato starch. It’s possible that at 4 tablespoons per day the RPS is at a therapeutic level as opposed to a supplemental level.
p.s. I’m not in love with the stuff either. Tonight I remembered that I have frozen wild blueberries so tomorrow I’ll spin them up with the yoghurt and the RPS.
@Tater/Yien, in that Hadza article he wonders why they quickly roast the tubers. One reason could be that roasting lowers harmful toxins and anti-nutrients present in some roots and tubers (like “bitter” cassava) and which are often more concentrated in the outer skin of the tuber, and for good reason – to help protect it from pests and rot.
I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question. Is RS considered to be totally indigestible and therefore not to be included when counting carbs in a carb conscious diet like leangains where all daily macros i.e. carbs, protein and fat are counted precisely? Or does even RS like unmodified PS get included in with all other carb sources when counting daily intake?
If RS is counted toward daily carb intake then it seems to me it wouldn’t fit well with leangains because even just a few Tbsp’s in water is such a large number of carbs.
I’m following leangains strictly but would like to supplement with RS as well for the health benefits cited here if I can make it work.
If RS is OK and doesn’t count as regularly ingested carbs for counting daily carb intake would it be OK to take it during the fasting period just added to water?
The other interesting thing here with the roasted tubers is, if they are eating the entire cooked tuber including the outer roasted portion they may be ingesting yet another prebiotic created by the roasting (starch pyrolysis) which creates Indigestible Dextrin.
There are some studies out there on the effects of ID similar to RS. I saw a few done by Japanese (rice) researchers.
A couple of points that are worth noting about the Hadza tubers:
-they provide a daily, year-round source of anywhere from 100-300 cals a day for the Hadza, I’ll leave it to you guys to figure out the RS content from the digestability charts (but 20g a day is very comfortable..)
-“experts”, like Sisson, always love to point out “all else being equal hunter-gatherers on game-rich lands will have more opportunities to consume (the preferred) animals and less cause to fallback on fibrous tubers than hunter-gatherers on marginalized lands”. Yet they always fall to point out the “all-else-equal” thing also means “no bows, no arrows, no poison points, and no iron”. They also fail to point out the evidence for scavenge meat counts, during those glory days of endless game bounty..
@Jay
I don’t know, can’t get Martin to reply to a single email or even a fucking tweet.
It’s ok. He wants to be an absolute, unquestioned authority, and he got his pink panties all in a bunch because, surprise, people aren’t interested in $20 per MONTH for his insights via newsletter, valuable as they may be, so he doesn’t blog anymore, just twerps on Twitter like a little pussy.
…and I hope someone forwards him this comment.
You’ve got his archives. If you’re that obsessed over strictness, this is not the place for you either.
@yien, so our ancestors ate both tubers and meat. You don’t know what the ratio was so what’s your point, that Sisson doesn’t know either? Who cares what the answer is. There is no ideal ratio for everyone anyway. What would you recommend for the majority of people who are vastly more sedentary than our ancestors, lots of tubers?
@Brad, yeah that was my point. Sisson doesn’t know, but he’s happy to tell everyone what the ratio should be.
So, what are good places to put potato starch in to increase consumption? Does it matter if it’s heated or not regarding RS?
I just ate some potato starch for the first time: Bob’s Red Mill PS, 2 Tbsp, mixed in with some ice cream. Not bad at all. It has almost no flavor, and you don’t really even notice it’s there with a couple of big scoops of ice cream. (Don’t worry, it’s Paleo ice cream, made from raw bison essence.)
I’m looking at your list here:
https://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf
It looks like the raw starches blow away just about everything else, but if you wanted to go a more normal-food route, something like chili with lots of beans would be pretty good, if you cook it then freeze it for 24 hours before re-heating it, right?
Or even just peas & corn: there’s not nearly as much RS content, but if you cook them, freeze them for 24 hours, then re-heat and eat, that’s an easy way to do it.
man! i read this post followed by:
http://www.ketotic.org/2013/11/similarities-between-germ-free-mice-and.html
my head is spinning
@Jay: Buried in all the back postings is my discovery on the PS bag that a tablespoon of PS is 40 calories of fatty acids, not carbs. 4.5 g of short chain fatty acids. Now, that particular bag was maybe four months ago and now they all say all carbs.
Since PS isn’t 100% RS, upon further reflection the proper answer is somewhere in between, consisting of conventional carb starch and RS.
@J. Wynia and Gabriella: Back in the RS archives, I’ got tater tot a bit interested in amylase inhibitors. I’ve done lots of research on them over the last six years and have used them many times. My experiential bottom line is that I can’t get the results that the labs do. The latter often get 90% non-absorbtion as glucose.
But yes, in all theory, it would convert any common starch into resistant starch, whatever the sourcee. I use Natrol Carb Interceptor, seems to have the most of the active ingredient for the buck. I don’t use it as religiously as I used to because I have to mail order it.
Oh, ye of tender intake sensitivities above. Really, PS is hard to consume? Reading comments like that just after finishing “Imagining Head Smashed In,” an extensive book about the northern plains Indians and their lives, it’s almost painful to read these comments. To go from eating raw entrails while squeezing the poop out of the far end to PS being “gritty?”
Potato starch is not gritty, it is a super fine particulate. It does not dissolve in water. In liquid, it settles rapidly and must be constantly restirred. I have consumed it in yogurt, diet cola, water, and diluted V8 juice. While the latter would be my favorite, I don’t do it anymore only because I’d rather get my calories elsewhere.
Put a pint of water in a big cup, stir in your 4 TBL’s of PS, stir often, drink, and in a minute it’s all done. No taste, no grit. And no poop.
@ pzo, I’m with you. Just stir it up in some water and chug it. The taste is innocuous.
Hi Tatortot –
Your results with resistant starch inspired a thread on an ulcerative colitis forum here: http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2921164
I’m wondering if you could swing by and help answer some questions.
Thanks.
SG
Well this is all very interesting. Especially love the infighting over Paleo, WAP, PHD, Primal – f’ing yawn! Seems to me we are all in the same house just working out the details about what makes for an optimal diet for YOU!
I am going out and getting some Potato Starch. I will personally try it straight up in a glass of water. I am thinking of putting in the Bullet Proof ice cream my family loves to get it into the kids diet. Ice Cream made of healthy fats and proteins seems like a good way to suspend the starch but I will be curious to see if it changes the texture at all.
I am thoroughly convinced that the gut microbial environment determines the health of the host. Anything I can do to positively effect this environment I am going to try.
Really great stuff! Thank you.
Have taken PS for a number of months. No change noticed. My health has always been fine. I take it as I take vit d, on the basis that it’s likely doing good.
How I take it: put a large teaspoon of it straight in my gob. Take a swig of water. Swallow. Repeat. Painless, tasteless and somewhat miraculous: on contact with the water the powder sorta magically disappears. Every gulp a spiritual experience. Try it.
@Yien, Sisson is recommending something that is plausible (though not proven) in a historic sense and also works as arguably one of the easiest weight loss and maintenance strategies for the vast majority of mostly sedentary people (moderate to low carb). And ton’s of people have success with his template, and yet you have a problem with this? Picking nits are we? Now, can we get back to the RS subject?
@Yien, btw Jaminet (PHD), and most others, also tell people what the ratio should be – ie, their template, their opinion. Is the PHD template better than the Primal template? There is no best (for everyone) right? PHD macro ratios puts belly fat on me, but that’s ME. I don’t assume that it’s true for *everyone*, nor do I attempt to poke holes in Jaminet’s reasoning. He has his reasons just as Sisson does. They are both great templates especially as a starting point relative to SAD. Tweak as you see fit. Again, I don’t do the camp wars thing (above post) and think it’s fairly pointless unless you are pointing out some glaring flaw that has some value to learning. There may be a few logic holes in Sisson’s template but none particularly glaring that I can see and as I think you know it works fucking excellent for *many* people in as-defined or tweaked versions.
Damn! another off topic post….
Nighttime anxiety resolved
I cleaned up my diet four years ago and solved a long list of minor health issues. It’s been my goal to be off all meds, but until recently I haven’t been able to sleep well at night without the aid of a small dose of Mirtazapine (anti-depressant that doubles as a sleep aid). Without the drug I would wake at night and experience minor anxiety that was enough to keep me awake for hours.
I began the RS via PS regimen in July. Now, for the first time in nearly ten years, when I wake at night (drug free) I have the same calm mind I went to bed with. I still wake up at two or three almost every night, but I’m able to smile, roll over, and fade back to sleep. Peaceful belly, peaceful mind.
I should add that during this time I also began supplementing roughly to PHD recommendations. Maybe it’s the zinc? My instincts tell me it’s my happy gut. Whatever, I’m thrilled.
Placed an order for some Bob’s Red Mill PS last night. Interested in improved sleep, dreaming, and mood as they’re all tangible. The improved immune system is the meat and potatoes for me, but it’s like other’s are saying about vit D–it’s something you intuitively know is working.
It’s interesting to me that all of the improvements listed, sleep, mood, gut flora etc., are all closely related to immune function in the first place. Does the PS help improve sleep quality independently which in return helps to improve immune function and then mood, etc.? Or does the PS improve gut flora which then improves the rest? So many variables, but the important thing is it all seems to be synergistic.
And Tim’s gut profile is too hard to ignore as not a statistically significant difference in a positive way. Sure, it would have been nice to see a before and after, but it isn’t necessary with all the n=1 experiments reporting similar results. One should be able to connect the dots that this IS and will be a big thing down the road for a larger audience.
Correction: And Tim’s gut profile is too hard to ignore as a statistically significant difference in a positive way.
How else can you really look at that and now see that PS is playing a leading role? Like the lil’ potato farmer said himself, he highly doubts his gut profile was vastly different to the rest before PS.
Good work Tim & Richard.
StealthGuardian – I will try to get over to HealingWell next week. I posted there a few times on another RS thread, glad you guys are liking it. You know what I’d like better, though? For you to become the ‘tatertot’ over there! I’m spread pretty thin right now and it looks like the snowball is getting bigger every day! I don’t possess and magical powers–all the info you’d ever need is in the search box at the top of the page, and on Google, pubmed, and everywhere!
I’ve been doing a little series with Grace at url-removed/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html The conversatation there is a bit more targeted to gut health and people with gut issues, so you all may find answers there, too.
That’s really neat information to have. Thanks for sharing it! I couldn’t agree more about self-experimentation.
@pzo – “Since PS isn’t 100% RS, upon further reflection the proper answer is somewhere in between, consisting of conventional carb starch and RS.”
I did this brief analysis the other day:
From a potato starch technical data sheet:
– appearance white powder
– moisture 20% max
– whiteness 95.0 min
– ph(30%suspension) 6.5-8.5
– ash 0.25% max
– sulphur dioxidc(so) 2ppm
– max viscosity peak 1790b. u
– granule size 150um(100 mesh sieve) 99.6% min
– packing: in 25kg white kraft paper bag.
On Bob’s Red Mill PS, it says,
Serving size=1TBS/12g
Total Carbs = 10g
Total Fiber = 0g
This would be in it’s cooked state. I think that when you look at the RS content of raw starch, you will find it may be as high as 10g per TBS. Most of the studies put the RS value of raw potato starch at 60-80% of total weight. Most are right at 78%.
When I was first trying to figure out the RS content of PS, I was using 80% of the total carbs, but it is really 80% of the total weight and since potato starch is 20% moisture, this makes sense.
So, margin of error is probably between 60-80% RS by weight. Which would make 1TBS equivalent to 8-10g of RS.
Brad wrote: “in that Hadza article he wonders why they quickly roast the tubers. One reason could be that roasting lowers harmful toxins and anti-nutrients present in some roots and tubers”
“Alternative reasons for brief roasting:
• Softens food, faster peeling”
(Negligible effect of cooking on nutritional value of Hadzatubers,
Years ago I saw a documentary that supported this first reason. A Bushman was asked if Bushmen briefly roast tubers for taste or digestability and he said no, that it was just to make it easier to get the peels off.
It’s interesting that raw tubers contain the highest amounts of resistant starch and reheating/recooling never gets back to that original high RS value in the raw food.
Thanks for the link, Yien.
@tatertot
Related to sleep improvements, is it best to do some portion of the daily PS at or near bedtime? I am just starting PS at a reduced amt to see how it goes, but I would love to get some sleep quality improvement. Interesting that WT could get off meds for sleep. Thx!
@Jan – You really just need to experiment…nothing set in stone.
@jan
Typically, I do 2T first thing in AM with water. I speculate it helps flush things down the tubes by having bacteria in the small intestine jump on the bus. We’ll see. But last night I took some just before bed as well, had amazing sleep with more vivid dreams than usual, so going to do that again.
I’ve been using potato starch and roasted/cooled potatoes for about ~10 days. I take the PS blended in some kefir and frozen berries (store bought unfortunately; I’ve had absolutely no luck getting a kefir culture to take). It’s hard for me to gauge if it’s having any affect since my diet has been particularly wonky over that period of time, but since I don’t feel worse, I’m going to continue with it. I adjusted pretty rapidly to 4 TBS of PS; I never experienced the constant flatulence that has been mentioned, but definitely some gas. I’m not sure if that’s a good sign or what, but I have a hard time believing my gut was all that healthy to begin with.
I keep hoping that the next thing I try will finally make me feel better, and perhaps I’m getting my hopes up too much. I’ve been doing a blend of keto & primal for the better part of the last year and while I’ve lost ~35 pounds, I have a hard time seeing physical changes. And, even in ketosis, I feel like crap, but when not in it, I feel worse. I know I need to do more experimenting, but I don’t even know where to start. Maybe I just need to give the RS more time, and try something else in conjunction. I’m mostly leaning towards something closer to PHD (I’m already taking a bunch of the recommended supplements), but I had hoped to drop another ~15 pounds or so before that.
I did want to ask: a local supermarket sells frozen jasmine rice, and I was thinking of picking some up for the times I screw up my planning and I’m out of roasted/cooled potatoes. But, what would be the recommended method to heat the frozen rice so as to preserve the RS? I know tatertot recommends keeping PS under 130, and while I love potatoes right out of the fridge, I don’t think I want to eat frozen rice.
Thanks for all of the work you’ve put in on this topic, tatertot and Richard. It’s really quite intriguing.
Steve
Steve – You can reheat the frozen rice. RS will stick. But the RS you are getting in most foods is just a bonus, the only meaningful RS you get will be by supplementing with potato starch and eating dried plantains that are dried at low heat and eaten cold. Any time you start cooking RS Rich foods, you degrade the RS to small amounts–it’s still there, and still good for you, but not in an amount that will flood the intestines with prebiotics and butyrate.
@WT,
Your experience of RS helping you with night time anxiety kind of explains my belief that there is a connection between the enhanced butyrate production in the gut and synthesis of GABA (gamma-Aminobutyric acid). GABA is the chief inhibitory neurotransmitter in the central nervous system. It plays a role in regulating neuronal excitability throughout the nervous system.
My personal experience with GABA some years ago was very similar to what everyone is experiencing with RS i.e., deep sleep and very vivid dreams. I have also used GABA when I had to speak in front of a group to calm the butterflies in my tummy :-)
Now if we can prove that the butyrate produced by the feasting bacteria in the colon is synthesized by the body into GABA, then the deep restful sleep, vivid dreams, clearer mind can be explained without any ambiguity. (Is butyrate and butyric acid one and the same? I think so)
Feasting good bacteria => butyrate => synthesis of GABA => GABA is a proven inhibitory neurotransmitter == deep sleep+ vivid dreams + clear mind
BTW, l-Glutamine is also used as a precursor to increase GABA levels and there have been several studies. L-glutamine works by repairing the intestine walls. Oh my, everything I study these days seems to boil down to good gut health :-)
T-Nat
@T-Nat – Then you’ll love this article (Thanks again, GabKad):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120617142536.htm
”
23
“We identified, to our knowledge, the first bifidobacterial strain, Bifidobacterium dentium, that is capable of secreting large amounts of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). This molecule is a major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the central and enteric nervous systems,” says Karina Pokusaeva, a researcher on the study and a member of the laboratory of James Versalovic.
GABA is one of the chief inhibitory neurotransmitters in the human central nervous system. It plays a role in regulating pain and some pain relieving drugs currently on the market act by targeting GABA receptors on neural cells.”
I am planning to get the scoop on my poop (LOL, Jan :-) ) but I want to do it through Metametrix GI FX (Genova 2000 + ONE) with help from Dr. Grace. I will likely do it in the next month or so.
My profile ATM:
I am not on Paleo or Primal or any specific diet for that matter. But I do eat healthy and mostly home cooked meals. Between 100 to 200 g carbs from Soaked, cooked, frozen and reheated parboiled rice, all kinds of beans; sunny side up eggs; ghee; VCO; etc. I am not eating organic but most of my food these days is cooked the *right* way.
I am currently supping with RS + Psyllium and will soon add MSM to the mix as I am experiencing some pain in my knuckles and hope MSM helps. Niacinamide and D3 are the other supps I take.
No health issues other than moderate high FBG (but normal A1C). Fairly active and so gymnastic strength training 3X a week + 1X weights; pretty sedentary otherwise.
I am not sure why I want to get my gut mapped out. I guess my main goal is to see if I am lacking in any strain of good bacteria and if there are any fungi issues as I have been plagued by mildly annoying dandruff ever since I moved to the USA. As well, any vitamin deficiencies, toxins or mal-absorption issues.
T-Nat
Tim,
This stuff is simply fascinating. A classic case of “the more I learn the less I know” about these gut microbiome!
From your linked article:
“In addition to its pain modulating properties, GABA may also be capable of inhibiting inflammation. Recent studies have shown that immune cells called macrophages also possess GABA receptors. When these receptors were activated on the macrophages there was a decrease in the production of compounds responsible for inflammation.”
Reduce systemic inflammation? Quite possible. I will keep an eye out on my CRP level on my next labs :-) If the CRP goes down, at least it won’t be a mystery to me.
T-Nat
T-Nat
@Brad
“unless you are pointing out some glaring flaw that has some value to learning. There may be a few logic holes in Sisson’s template but none particularly glaring that I can see”
I learnt long ago not to argue with MDA sycophants. Not saying you are one, but you sure do sound like it.
For the record – the majority of what Sisson wrote on tubers in the PB is factually incorrect. Have a read, knock yourself out.
@tatertot
Question: Like your wife, I’m sensitive to a lot, lactose, etc and have existing gut issues, so my bacteria profile could be similar to hers. What happens to RS in the case of pathogenic stuff and getting the right bacteria in place? I’m like @t-nat, I want to know what’s there, but if it’s not good then what? Thx.
Apologies if you’ve covered this before, but are there any benefits to also supplementing with inulin?
@Jan – I think that most people have enough microbes to eat RS if you feed them. It takes several species to eat RS, bifidobacteria doesn’t even like RS, it eats the byproducts produced by co-feeders of RS.
The gut bugs that do like to eat RS are the ones that everybody has. If you are seriously screwed up and don’t even have the right ones to begin eating RS, or just want to make sure you do, that’s the place of Soil-Based Organism probiotics and other commercial probiotcs, kimchi, kefir, sauerkraut, and dirty carrots. The gut bugs live all around us, we just need to provide a fertile growing field for them to thrive in.
I don’t believe it’s THAT hard to get good gut bugs established and working for us.
@T-Nat – and if you read what I wrote about Bifido up in the main blog, it’s always associated with lowered inflammation!
A week ago started a trial on PS RS . Three times a day -12gr. Experienced light headache the first 3-4 days then ok. But the thing is, the seriously ill, “incurable”, “life” long patient I’m doing this with (my wife) has not experienced one adverse reaction. This despite eating food the past couple of days she didn’t have for good reasons for two years at least. In case this was the last missing link; Tend to believe the two of you, for your research, bravery and trials, tatertot and Richard should be rewarded a Noble price the least :-) Is this also the cure for an insane world mankind has created?
Peace.
Thank you for now.
Ha, Bernard. I was actually joking with someone as I was drafting this that I bet someone drops the Nobel prize deal. Funny. And thanks.
I think this just about covers all bases, (just for fun):
1/2 cup frozen wild blueberries (Canadian)
1/2 cup homemade kefir (grains from Romania)
2 heaping tablespoons of raw PS (Bob’s Redmill, USA)
1 heaping teaspoon of natto powder (Korean)
1/8 teaspoon cinnamon (?)
1/4 teaspoon powdered ginger (?)
1 tablespoon apricot jam from Syria (already a collector’s item since the war doesn’t end)
all blended together. A truly international effort at good gut biome!
Oh yeah, I ate it. Not bad at all.
@yien and @brad you guys are clogging up the comment thread. It’s hard enough to read all the comments because of the blogs popularity BUT you 2 are discussing, although indirectly related BUT NOT directly related to this specific post.
find a specific POST that is about you 2 are commenting about and have at it.
I could care less. Most of us are just trying to figure out what is good for our own sake and I find that you are just confusing the hell out of me.
all of the dietary protocol you guys are discussing are all good and it is just a matter of the individual finding what fits for his/her own lifestyle.
of my chest. just saying :)
GabKad – Good one! Throw in some Mexican Jumping Beans, Swiss Chocolate, and Chinese Mung Beans and you’ll be good to go!
Yien, have you seen Mark Sisson’s increasingly positive writings about potatoes and resistant starch since he wrote the PB (thanks at least in part to the efforts of Tatertot and Richard)?
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/paleo-potatoes/#axzz2mF69Lw1U (19 Oct 2010)
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/potatoes-healthy/#axzz2mF69Lw1U (27 Oct 2010)
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/resistant-starch-zinc-deficiency/#axzz2mF69Lw1U (Nov 2013)
The critical comments at the MDA forum re: RS have also decreased dramatically since Mark wrote that last piece and Tatertot answered every criticism (and I like to think that my call at the forum for the critics to produce evidence helped :) ). Plus potatoes aren’t the only tuber. Mark has always OK’d some tubers, such as yams and sweet potatoes, and he was never the harshest critic of tubers. Even in the PB he was not completely negative about starchy tubers. He wrote on page 135: “Starchy vegetables might be a particularly appealing choice for those who require more than 150 grams per day of carbs ….” That’s not a total prohibition and he has been moving further in your direction since.
Thus the tuber debate seems nearly moot at this point, with remaining differences seeming to be of degree of enthusiasm for tubers. So why not declare victory and settle into a new era of relative peace with Mark and Brad on the tuber topic?
“(thanks at least in part to the efforts of Tatertot and Richard)? ”
In part?
Mainly thanks to Richard, though, as far as Sisson is concerned.
@Paleophil – Thanks, though, for the interest and backup at MDA–it was a losing battle for a long time!
Tatertot,
You said, ” Equol may have beneficial effects on the incidence of prostate cancer, bone health skin health and physiological changes during menopause, including reducing severity and frequency of hot flashes…”
This jumped out at me because I’ve had severe hot flashes for approximately 12 years. On a scale of 1 -10, mine were a 30 in terms of the frequency, severity, and duration of each one. People thought I was having a stroke if they saw me because I was beet red and sweating profusely…non-stop. I put up with HFs for 8 years before finally throwing the towel, at which point I started taking bio-identical hormones (I don’t believe they are safer). It took a large dose over a number of months to knock the HFs (hot flashes) into submission (I really shocked my doctor by the dose needed).
Since I never wanted to be on hormones at all, as soon as I had some relief, I started titrating my dose down to a level where the HFs were manageable. Then for some unknown reason I had to up my dose again (but not by much). At that point, I still had HFs and night sweats, but it was tolerable.
Because of your blogging about RS and its attendant benefits, I decided to add PS to my regimen. At the same time I was reading the comments on many of the sites where you’ve posted, and I remember a few women (not seen their posts lately) who mentioned a decrease in their HFs while on RS. Naturally that got my attention. I haven’t seen any reports lately about this, though.
While I cannot say definitively that RS is helping me in terms of HFs, I can say that when I first started it, I noticed what the other women reported: fewer and less intense HFs. I dropped off the RS bandwagon for a short time, but since I’ve resumed, I’ve not been taking any hormones (not intentionally – I just forgot), and nothing has changed: frequency, duration, and intensity are about the same as when I was on the hormones.
Who knows? Maybe it’s the resistant starch and critters fed, or maybe it’s my body finally settling into post menopause.
Judy
“Steve – You can reheat the frozen rice. RS will stick. But the RS you are getting in most foods is just a bonus, the only meaningful RS you get will be by supplementing with potato starch and eating dried plantains that are dried at low heat and eaten cold. Any time you start cooking RS Rich foods, you degrade the RS to small amounts–it’s still there, and still good for you, but not in an amount that will flood the intestines with prebiotics and butyrate.”
Thanks for the reply, tatertot. Since any RS aside from PS (and I plan to incorporate some plantain starch as well) is just a bonus, do you think there’s any real need for it? I’d still like to drop another 10-15 pounds, and I’m not really sure how well it’ll work if I start eating a lot more carbs. Frankly, I don’t care if I’m in ketosis or not, but I know I can lose weight in ketosis, and the PS doesn’t affect it.
Steve – I do think it’s important to get RS from cooked foods as well. There are 4 types of RS, the two found in human food are RS2 and RS3, different bacteria feed on each, so I think it’s important to go ‘full-spectrum’ . RS2 is only found in raw foods (potatoes, bananas, plantains, cassava, etc…) RS3 is found in cooked and cooled/reheated food. It would be almost impossible to get 20g of RS3 in a day–you’d need to eat pounds of meticulously prepared foods. But to get 5-10g of RS3 is easy. Add to it 20-40g of RS2 from a raw starch and you are in business.
I also think it’s important to get lots of other fermentable fibers such as pectin and gums found in most fruit and veggies, and antioxidant polyphenols also found in colorful veggies and fruit.
I guess what I’m saying, I don’t like the thought of someone eating a nutrient sparse diet and thinking some potato starch will be a magic bullet.
A daily salad and a piece or two of fruit, some beans/rice/potatoes, and then some green banana, dried plantain or potato starch is a great approach.
@PaleoPhil, Sisson’s (old?) views on tubers are just one of many large blindspots he still has. His approach might work well for someone that has done testosterone (on the outside, at least), but his overall message still contributes to paleo’s “fear by hypothesis” culture. Don’t eat that 151st gram, kids. Even worse; it creates an environment, and constant kneejerk reactions from his sycophants, where proposing simple and very worthwhile solutions from paleo times are attacked and held back. I say this as someone who pushed the RS wagon on another hardcore paleo site, long before Tim made his first guest post here.
There are a number of very worthwhile, additional learnings to be had from L1 and L2 mitochondrial populations. But since these involve a rethinking of fats, and also glucose/fructose, it is barely worth anyone even fighting for any more. It is just banging your head against a wall with no real return. It is easier just to take some simple views put a twist to it and sell some books and supplements.
Still waiting to hear about RS on Livin’ La Vida Low Cred. May have a long wait.
“I say this as someone who pushed the RS wagon on another hardcore paleo site”
Isn’t it time to simply recognize that you now have a real audience to put forth your ideas because in addition to immediately judging that Tim was real and grabbing it up, I’m a friend of Sisson? That post came out shortly after a phone conversation.
Are you the EatLessMoveMoore of RS, where all you have is a hummer and everything is a nail?
I am looking forward to your imminent post that you mentioned earlier Richard. I have discovered K2 and now RS in the last few weeks. I am going to live to be 100 and live well.
tatertot,
Thanks. I do eat a good amount of greens, but that’s generally it. But, I’ll try to continue incorporating cold, roasted potatoes and the occasional serving of rice. When I get down to a weight I find comfortable, I’ll transition to eating a bit more starchy carbs ala PHD.
@tatertot: Your quote, “This would be in it’s cooked state. I think that when you look at the RS content of raw starch, you will find it may be as high as 10g per TBS. Most of the studies put the RS value of raw potato starch at 60-80% of total weight. Most are right at 78%.
When I was first trying to figure out the RS content of PS, I was using 80% of the total carbs, but it is really 80% of the total weight and since potato starch is 20% moisture, this makes sense.
So, margin of error is probably between 60-80% RS by weight. Which would make 1TBS equivalent to 8-10g of RS.”
So, let’s take the middle, 70% RS by weight, or 9g of RS per tablespoon, which in turn, is 12 grams. Further, on the easy side, that means that 3 grams is conventional starch. Of the actual RS remainder, that would imply that the 9g becomes short chain fatty acids at, what was that number, 3.5 kcalorie per gram?
Therefore, for those inputting and tracking dietary information – who, me? – a TBL of potato starch should read 3g conventional carbohydrate and 4.4 grams fat for 40 kcal. 4.4 x 9 kcal = 39.6 kcal + 3g x 4 kcal = 12 of basic carbohydrate for a total of, rounding, 52 kcal per TBL.
Quite willing to be proven wrong by anyone with better mat skills.
@tatertot: Hi, I see you recommend fermented beans. I was wondering how u ferment them? Also do you soak them? Thank you in advance
I use a probiotic called Prescript Assist. We also make kambucha and we have chickens. We are doing everything we can to get the “bugs” in from the outside. I think a lot of them are killed entering the digestive system. Certainly the ones advertised on TV don’t make it very far and need to be constantly re-ingested. The Prescript Assist (soil based organisms) seem to work really well but I now think this RS story could really help them take root and flourish.
Would a probiotic taken with a small glass of water and a tbs of PS be a potentially more effective way of getting the beneficial bacteria through the digestive system to it’s preferred home or would there be no reason to think there would be an effect?
pzo, bacteria produce SCFA as their waste, so probably the number of calories in this ‘waste’ is less than what you calculated because the bacteria themselves utilize calories to live and divide. You’d need a bacteriologist to give a rough estimate on how many calories would be utilized by the bacteria.
Tim, about the intolerance to dairy, I can hardly drink milk without being gassy but I can eat tons of yogurt and be just fine. So I am wondering what kind of intolerance your wife suffers from ?
One thing though: most of the yogurt I eat is based on sheep milk, while the milk my kids drink is 100% Jersey cow milk. If I have one full glass of it, I pay for it a while after …
I eat a lot of starchy foods and supplement with raw PS starch a little randomly (like 2 weeks with then 1 or 2 weeks without). I also take fermented cod liver oil regularly, and add some more vit D when I remember it because these days, sunshine is not exactly abundant (my parents are berbere, from northern Algeria, I need the damn D!). I must say I feel great in general, no sickness or weakness, and …
to Steve: carbs don’t make you fat if you don’t eat too fat at the same time. I eat plenty of fruits and starchy stuff but I don’t mix it up with too much fat in general. I have some sort of “Warrior Diet” way of eating. I can tell my metabolism is up because if I eat a couple of green bananas + a mandarin or 2 around lunchtime, I get really warm only one hour later. The meat and fat come in the evening, with potatoes or white rice, and butternut squash these days (they are delicious in soups mixed with onions, etc). I actually lost a bit of weight after being on a potato hack diet for a few days, just to try. I was at 68-69kg prior to the hack, and dropped to 66-67 after the hack. 3-4 weeks later, eating my usual diet, with loose timing and content, I am at 65 kg (and that is even after eating rice crackers topped with dark chocolate). Once you regain insulin sensitivity, carbs are burnt almost as soon as you eat them.
Jan – I did do the breath testing through an online co – Metabolic Solutions. I did get a neg. result recently.
I combined information I got by reading Chris Kresser’s post, Paul Jaminet’s info on strenthening the immune system and the info from www. sibo.com plus reading the Pimintel’s work and Norm Robillard
Lots to put together but this is what I did:
Diet: Aglaee Jacob’s elimination diet with the addition of Jasmine rice at every meal (1/2 cup)
Shoot – pressed the wrong key –
Jan – for SIBO Herbal antibiotic:
Interfase Plus – biofilm disruptor – 2 tabs three times/day
BioGenesis – ParaBiotic Plus – includes berberine, olive leaf extract, wormwood extract and thyme. 2 tabs, three times per day.
Cat’s Claw Tea – known for its immune boosting and intestinal regulation. 3/day
Enteric Coated peppermint oil – before meals.
Digestive enzymes, HCL with Pepsin and Bitters before meals.
I also ate alot of cilantro and took chlorophyl pills to help with detox. Lots of lemon ginger tea.
I felt horrible for a few weeks but slowly started feeling better. I could not tolerate any starches other than the jasmine rice. I also stopped taking probiotics and could not tolerate any fermented foods. I think avoiding all those things sped up the the die off of the bacteria in the small intestine. I continued everything for 8 weeks and the bloating was gone. Lower abdominal pain continued but is now better as I have been adding more starches, the RS and fiber. I can now tolerated taking Prescript assist at night and VSL #3 in the morning. Hope that helps!
Lets talk about equol. It has been long sought after to do many things; hair loss, menopause, test loss and other middle age problems. I wonder if the key is getting the correct strains in the gut and feeding them rs. I have been looking for the strains that produce the most equol, but my google research worm hole is not yielding great results.
Ann! You don’t need products! Especially products with unsubstantiated woo-woo claims! And why is it when I see posts like yours anywhere on the intertubes, there is almost a certainty of finding the words “detox” and/or “toxin(s).” You didn’t fail me.
Jasmine rice? It’s a flavoring you can buy in a bottle at Asian food stores!
Jeez, girl, eat some eggs and liver. Nothing to detoxify. Chock full of everything your body needs.
And, frankly, I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, especially in regards resistant starch, the topic.
tatertot-
In regards to your post about corn tortillas and beans – my husband does research looking at health disparities among different racial groups and Latinos always have better health indicators in spite of lower socioeconomic status and there are lots of theories why – community support, the tradition of cooking, etc. I bet no one has considered the RS angle of their diet. Most researchers also are stumped that this cohort are healthier despite cooking with lard (!) Of course once they are have transitioned to SAD, health indicators go down the tubes, esp. diabetes.
As far as the discussion of GABA and the gut – I have been reading about psychoneuroimmunology and have learned that ALL the neurotransmitters (seratonin, GABA, dopamine, etc.) have receptors on the immune cells and 70-80% of our immune system is in the gut. The inflammatory cytokines of the immune system are the messenger molecules that alert that whole body as to any sign of danger so it just makes a whole lot of sense that our mental health is very directly related to the health of the gut. The vagus nerve controls the function of the digestive system which makes controlling stress so important in any discussion of digestive health. I think the term mind-body medicine is outdated and we should just think of ourselves as a bodymind as everything is connected to everything else with the gut being the true control center of our health. Thanks for all the great info in the site.
PZO – Jan asked me specifically – if you read about the elimination diet I did it included egg yolks and liver and i ate plenty of those, I did not want to spell out exactly everything I put in my mouth. I got rid of the SIBO in 8 weeks and now am on to rebuilding my gut microbiome via the RS, more fiber, tubers, etc. My point is that I tried to follow the recommendations on this site when I had the SIBO and it only made me sicker. I had to get rid of the SIBO before I could add the RS. Only my story but believe me I tried for years.
Richard and/or tatertot,
Have you guys tried or considered FOS (fructooligosaccharides)? I noticed that there is a bit of researching possibly suggesting a synergy between FOS and resistant starch: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20605664
It appears that the additive effect of combining them is due to different rates of fermentability in the gut. I’ve been on RS for weeks now (~3 TBS/day), but when I added 1 tsp of FOS to the mix I got a lot of gas all over again. It’s doing something different, but not sure the extent of the change yet since I only added it in yesterday. Thoughts?
@ann
Thanks for the specifics on your SIBO treatment. I’m glad you are clear! How long did it take you? Do you have any problem with low or slow gut motility? Are you hypothyroid? Just wondering, since I have done all the same reading as you and find the MMC important to successful recovery without relapse.
I was just diagnosed in October at Dr. Allison Siebecker’s (SIBO.com) clinic in Portland. Following dr. Pimentel’s protocol, I did one round of Neomycin and one round of flagyl. (10days) and had been following the scd diet. Can’t tell any difference since the abx, but I never had any gastr0/abdominal symptoms. I just had food sensitives and poor absorption of nutrients.
I can tell @PZO has no idea what SIBO is about and makes statements that are clearly due to ignorance. PZO-when the small intestine is compromised or damaged, the brush border is flattened and not functioning. Therefore, NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE EATING…the nutrients cannot be absorbed! I eat a nutrient-dense diet of all organics, grassfed, pastured foods, but my digestion/absorption is not functioning. To heal the SI is very difficult….just ask someone with Crohn’s!
@Ann I’d love to get more info from you since we are about in the same place with SIBO and adding RS. Could we exchange email or FB message? Thanks!
Jan, you are right, I have no knowledge of SIBO. But a real quick look and the answer is antibiotics, “oddly” enough, NOT products. Kill the little buggers, then start afresh. Sometimes modern Western medicine does have it right.
Sorry, when I see words like “cleansing,” “detox,” and “toxins,” I know the writer is pretty much scientifically illiterate.
Enough about SIBO already. Back channel it or find another blog.
Pzo- stop commenting on something you know nothing about! The whole problem is that using regular antibiotics has a very high recurrence rate. The endotoxins from certain bacteria damage the cleansing waves of the SI. I used “toxins” and “cleansing” in the same sentance that can be found in a scientific article about sibo. and guess what i have 2 health degrees, what about you?
Jan, yes, would love to communcate off this site.
@David
Yep. Same thing with FOS. Every now & then I’ll add about 1/4 tsp and I don’t get the gas.
@PZO – I would use 40kcal per TBS of potato starch, I just don’t think the fat counts, but we’re pretty darn close!
@Eric Garcia – Fermenting beans is easy, telling you why and how is not. Just soak beans for 12-36 hours, don’t change the water, cook by boiling for 10-15 minutes then simmering until tender. Store leftovers in the freezer. That’s all you need to know! Search this site for bean recipes, Richard is king of bean dishes!
@Ken – I would throw probiotic supplements in the trash sooner than taking them without potato starch. Click this search I just did on ‘resistant starch, adhesion, probiotics’ and you’ll see why. Millions of dollars being spent by probiotic manufacturers on this right now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=resistant+starch+adhesion+probiotics&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR
@LaFrite – Hey, long time no see! I guess I don’t know my wife all that well…just found out she CAN eat yogurt, just doesn’t LIKE to. Milk, cheese, sour cream used to tear her up. She is quite a bit more tolerant now after several months of potato starch, but she wasn’t really a believer in the power of PS until just recently–now she’s trying to eat some every day, but she is more finicky than our cat. We’re down to mixing it in appleasauce, lol, and she doesn’t really like that, either–some people!
@Bobert – re: Equol I had never heard of this before it came up in a search of Slackie. Apparently only 30-40% of people have the right gut bugs to make it. Not sure how you would test specifically for those gut bugs, get them if lacking, or enrich them if there in small numbers. Personally, I think you just do the best you can–eat clean, eat prebiotics, let nature take it’s course.
@Ann – Have your husband look into Stale Maize Porridge. Lots written on it, it’s a big part of this study on who gets colorectal cancer and who doesn’t…http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3742201/ (Ctrl-F Maize gets you there fast). Also here is a link to paper I never really read carefully, but discusses tortillas and beans and RS at length: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15713053 Try to get full text, I had it once, but now you need to log-in to get it. Here’s another..maybe same one, full text: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3269686/
Also, all those botanicals you are taking are like a page from a book on Traditional Chinese Medicine. I think you are on the right track!
@David – Good catch. Yes I think FOS is very important part of puzzle as are other real-food prebiotics. If you read the study you linked, you will see the phrase, ‘determining the location of the large intestine where they exert their beneficial effect’ This is huge! Eaten alone, FOS or a tiny bit of RS get fermented in the first 6″ or so of the large intestine. When enough is eaten, especially in a combo of RS+NSP (FOS, GOS, OS, etc…) the fact that they ‘burn’ at different rates ensures they get to the far reaches of the colon and exert their protective effects over the whole 5 feet of large intestine.
@Jan – Please don’t call pzo names! Only Richard gets to do that around here. I get what you are saying, but still, please, we just got over the paleo war, let’s not start a SIBO war.
@Jan and Ann
Another SIBO (positive breath test) sufferer here experimenting with RS in the form of potato starch and green bananas. Have only been supplementing with RS for ~4 days now, but so far I have seen increased bloating, acne, and looser stools than when following strict SCD diet. I’m going to continue testing for a while longer hoping these are just remodeling symptoms.
To further Jan’s point, from what I understand, SIBO does not strictly involve pathogenic overgrowth – it can involve an overflow of bacteria normally residing in the large intestine back into the small intestine where they should not be. If small intestine motility is damaged, it does not properly cleanse its contents forward into the large intestine, leading to fermentation, overgrowth, and damage to the nutrient-absorbing lining. So if this is the case, and bacteria ideally found only in the large intestine are now also residing in the small intestine, then it seems like the theory behind RS’s benefits (it is only digestible by bacteria living in the large intestine, therefore it only feeds the good guys in the place you want them), could make it a risk to people with this type of SIBO. This could also defeat the purpose of oral probiotics in that you would be self-inducing SIBO. From my experience there is something to this – I saw improvement after going off all probiotics.
By the way, I had a Metametrix GI panel done a few months back, and prevotella was my predominant species, with relatively low bifido, and no pathogenic species present. High yeast. This all after 4-5 years on pro-starch + fermented dairy + high sat. fat paleo. I became interested in RS hoping to shift the balance towards higher bifido and decrease prevotella. Would consider doing an Am Gut sample if I’m able to continue on RS.
Will update after further experimentation with RS.
Back a few years ago when the H1N1 virus was around, I decided for the sake of elderly patients to get the vaccine. This thing had squalene in it and who knows what but 2 weeks later my finger joints swelled up and the guts went truly bizarre. I’m not going to go into too many gross details but suffice to say it smelled worse than anything ever, exploded all over the place, was bubbly and floated.
I went to the doctor (after liberally applying my newfound secret weapon to her office bathroom and feel truly sorry for anyone who went in there later) and she said ‘no it’s not the vaccine’. Sure it’s not. Several of my colleagues had the exact same reaction to it.
I decided to do the Steffanson thing and ate nothing but fatty fish for two weeks. Mackerel, sardines, etc. Sort of like what Ann did for herself. The joints went back to normal, the guts stopped going crazy and I gradually reintroduced my normal diet.
@GabKad – I’d hate to read something you write that IS in gross detail…just kidding. I got the same reaction during a 5 month course of ciprofloxacin in 2003 administered by military doctors in an FDA un-approved manner for an imaginary imminent anthrax attack. Cipro is now the new Agent Orange. You’ll probably be reading about it soon if you haven’t already. I was alongside a bunch of Canadian peacekeepers so I’m sure they were getting it, too.
Ann, do you know what an “autodidact” is? Richard and Tater Tot certainly are. I knew a man who ran a munitions factory, he had no engineering degree. But, like Lincoln and the law, well self-taught. While having a degree in some area of knowledge can be very useful, it also means that said knowledge is often flawed. Just think of all the dietitians and nutritionists still spouting high carb low fat dogma. M.D.’s are still, mostly, on the lipid hypothesis of heart disease.
While my masters degree in a branch of philosophy is rather useless, the take away was learning critical thinking. How to differentiate objective facts from mythology. For instance, every vegan knows that meat rots in the colon, right? But if meat is fully digested in the small intestine – and it is, – it obviously can’t rot in the colon. In fact, it is vegetable matter that “rots” in the colon. Like RS!
I certainly wish you the best of luck – and some good, sound science – in your quest for health.
@pzo – hey! I said STOP! Oh, wait, my comment to Jan is still in moderation…too many links.
This is what I just told Jan:
@Jan – Please don’t call pzo names! Only Richard gets to do that around here. I get what you are saying, but still, please, we just got over the paleo war, let’s not start a SIBO war.
It’s like that isn’t it: you keep waiting for things to get better, they don’t, you tell the doctor, get blabla and then figure out on your own. I figured 5 weeks of excitement was plenty enough for ‘wait and see’.
@tatertot
I am out here to learn and we learn by asking and sharing, not JUDGING! I am respectful with those who are respectful and I usually leave blogs or “groups” that call people F#*%s! So, Richard gets a pass, you too, because you are on the front lines taking hits and this info is important. But people shouldn’t dictate/preach to others when they are “uninformed” (a nicer term).
SIBO is here to stay and leaky gut is all over the place causing chronic, debilitating health issues from diarrhea to dementia…get used to it people! We just want to know what works and that’s why we have made our way to this information.
I appreciate this site and the access to helpful information, which I can decide to use or not, in my own situation. Let each person do the same. :-)
“Only Richard gets to do that around here.”
It’s good to be King. :)
Richard to all his commenters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAqq11HYMsk :D
@Jan – Just goofing around…I value everybody’s comments! These RS blogs have become safe havens from hate for me, it’s nice to keep them friendly even it that bores some people.
@Ash – Are you comparing Richard to Duke Nukem? Good call!
Duke Nuke’em! #FML
@Kor – missed you earlier.
Keep us posted. RS is probably not a magic bullet once gut is severely disrupted. There are valves, nerves, muscles, and sphincters that can become damaged allowing all sorts of craziness to happen. I think the real value in RS is preventing all that, but you are making a good point on how serious it can become. Hope the RS helps!
@gabriella
I was relating to Grace (Dr BG) in email last night that the one single time in life where runny shit wasn’t just a one-off or a day or so was at a rest in Hong Kong back in the 80s when I got some sort of fish dish. It was literally weeks and I don’t want to describe, other than “brown water.” Weeks.
Took all sorts of stuff, doc’s advice, etc. You know what fixed it? I did like an animal and simply didn’t eat until everything resolved. Took 3-4 days.
“#FML”
Laf. You just sold your Lotus and are in the market for a ‘borghini.”
What a fucked up life, Ash! :)
Hi – so since I am now up to 3 TBS of PS per day I am noticing I am much hungrier and sooner after a meal than in the past. I have had some headaches and hypoglycemic type feelings also – a bit of brain fog, etc. I take the PS with water usually separate from a meal – do you think I could be having an hypoglycemic rxn or perhaps the improved gut flora is speeding up healing the cleansing waves in the SI?
Any ideas? – did you notice your BS spiking after the PS?
Thanks,
@Ann
So individual. I find that if I take 2T in water first thing in morning, I can’t even think about eating until after 11-12.
Sharing a link here from Dr. BG’s blog. It explains how one could develop a leaky gut with GMO foods. I liked it a lot. Thank you Keith Bell!
http://www.responsibletechnology.org/gluten
@Richard,
177 comments in 3 days. By far the most commented article on your blog since I started visiting a couple of months ago. What is the all time record?
T-Nat
T-Nat:
Record is at least a thousand comments, many many hundreds on many posts. But, I consciously drove that by commenting in reply to anything that I deemed worth it.
I don’t do that anymore. Don’t have the time and I also changed my thinking. Better if the post gets people to talk together on their own.
Tater, You’re welcome. Your and Richard’s stuff on resistant starch inspired me to post on that forum.
Do you have info showing RS3 to add benefits when added to RS2?
—
yien wrote: “Sisson’s (old?) views on tubers are just one of many large blindspots he still has.”
If the views are old (as in not current), then they’re not something he still has. If you think he’s still way wrong even after reading the articles at the links I provided and it’s that important to you, then why not tell him and give him a chance to explain or capitulate? Complaining about Sisson here probably isn’t going to have much impact, unless you’re expecting Richard to take up your standard and carry through the assault on Sisson?
Your on-topic Hadza tuber stuff was much more interesting. Thanks again for that. The Paleolithic and Neolithic HG consumption of tubers and legumes (including legume tubers and legume fruits), often eaten raw or briefly cooked, is something that has long interested me, and I get a chuckle from how unpopular the notion of eating raw or low-cooked tubers and legumes is with the folks in nearly every version of “Paleo” and probably every major dietary movement. Yummy french fries, sweet fruits, crispy bacon, grilled ribeye steaks, Kerrygold butter and Paleo cakes and cookies are much easier sells.
“I say this as someone who pushed the RS wagon on another hardcore paleo site…. There are a number of very worthwhile, additional learnings to be had from L1 and L2 mitochondrial populations. But since these involve a rethinking of fats, and also glucose/fructose, it is barely worth anyone even fighting for any more. …”
Sounds interesting. Please point me to your forum posts on RS, mitochondria, fats and glucose/fructose. Mitochondria are some of my favorite little beasties and I found that the popular excessive demonizing of all “fructose” (including fruits and raw honey) didn’t match up with my n=1, nor the research of Prof. Staffan Lindeberg (another Paleoist), Prof. Alyssa Crittenden and others. I also do question some of the popular notions on fats. I’m about as contrarian as it gets and I’m all ears, yet you’ve given up before even trying to sell me. Hit me with your best shot.
—
pzo wrote: “Ann, do you know what an “autodidact” is?”
pzo, Do you know what “patronizing” is?
Do you know that antibiotics and Natrol Carb Interceptor are also “products”? Do you know that jasmine rice is a variety of long grain rice with a nutty aroma produced by 2-Acetyl-1-pyrroline in the rice itself, not a flavoring? A fairie told me that the answers to those questions suggest cutting Ann some slack. I, for one, am interested in her experience.
I do give you points for recognizing the wimpiness of some of the comments. God forbid that any American have to eat anything that isn’t nom nom yummy yum yums. Hmmm, maybe I’ll write a cookbook with that title and cash in.
Richard wrote: “Better if the post gets people to talk together on their own.”
Be careful what you wish for. ;)
maybe SIBO is starving bacteria in the colon migrating to the small intestine just to survive,once properly fed with RS in the colon they might just make the trip back to the colon and stay there,,long time no post tatertot,been taking potato starch and buckwheat flour since i last posted last spring,,everything is a ok,,you deserve all the kudos for your research and work on this subject…………………..leo
@paleophil
Best comment I can recall in a while. I actually sat up in my seat and turned my gaze away from the awesomeness that is the Seattle Seahawks, a week away from playing my 49ers.
But this made me laf out loud.
“Yummy french fries, sweet fruits, crispy bacon, grilled ribeye steaks, Kerrygold butter and Paleo cakes and cookies are much easier sells.”
Yea, it’s cool to make money but it kinda requires killing what is really a decent framework, warts & all, in the process,
Well played, sir.
@kor
We are out here…the SIBO gang! Trying to heal our guts naturally and with staying power. Maybe RS is it, once we get the bacteria under control. How to do that? Well, @Ann has had success with a diet and herbal protocol, so,that is encouraging.
I think I am trying RS too soon. I need to reduce the bacteria and improve motility. Then, do a follow-up test before adding back RS. If you want to compare notes email me at [email protected].
@Richard:
qte
The gas is a very varied individual thing. Mine cleared up pretty quickly because I just plunged right in. I’ve found that taking the PS stirred in water 2-4T on an EMPTY stomach produces zero gas. However, if taken in conjunction (just before or after) with other food where you might get some farrago, PS seems to magnify it, and sometimes substantially.
The funniest was a big bowl of pinto beans and 4T of PS. We were very close to having another man on the moon. :)
unqte
Do you think 4T of PS on an empty stomach could break the fast?
I’m currently fasting LG style and would be very interested in this, since I currently consume it before going to bed (after eating a big meal).
It would be really interesting should that would be the case.
Was thinking some potato starch could mix in with rice pudding — perhaps made with maple syrup/Xylitol, making it a nice desert that doesn’t spike blood sugar. Anyone tried it?
Bobert – Equol is available as a supplement, used to relieve menopausal symptoms – typically
I wrote this on FB after seeing the pic of Tatertot and his bagged moose! It wouldn’t “take” on Facebook so putting it here.
Congrats! Moose are kosher and one day I’d like to try them!
I’m the one faithful freak who can’t tolerate the PS. My husband is another of the faithful here who has had nothing but great things from his 5-6 months on the RS bandwagon, but I’m the only one whose bad tract biome doesn’t like it. And I’m the one who hasn’t sent in her sample to the Gut Project yet, but I will ASAP. I want to be a before in the RS study.
Update is that I decided to try instead of 2 tbsp 2x a day (which led to TMI D after day 2), one small tsp 1 x a day. Both nights thereafter, I slept like a log with the vivid dreams and all. But after night 2, woke up and the TMI D returned. Seriously?? I had also had a few slices of drying plantains, maybe 3 thin slices, max. Drying them for the first time. So the PS is out for me for the present.
Yesterday, though, I did eat a 24-hour cooled rice stir fry and that amount and kind of RS stays in properly. Dying to see what bad boys are in my gut — whatever the bad news is, I am highly motivated to make my chart look like yours one day!
Wonder what moose filet tastes like…
@Yien, you are truly an emotional retard…
“I learnt long ago not to argue with MDA sycophants. Not saying you are one, but you sure do sound like it.
For the record – the majority of what Sisson wrote on tubers in the PB is factually incorrect. Have a read, knock yourself out.”
It’s not enough for you to stick labels and insert arbitrary divisions between successful diet templates, you have to attempt to divide people and place labels on them as well?… The fact of the matter is you don’t know fuck-all about me or my views so even insinuating a label (sycophant) on me just makes you look like an ass… Not saying you are one, but you sure do sound like it! <– back at ya! laf.
I defend Sisson's template the same as any other that has been massively successful in improving the health of boat-loads of people, including myself and a couple friends. I am keenly aware there are flaws/inconsistencies in the template. But neither would I criticize the heart surgeon who did not perform perfectly while saving the patients life.
Btw, I did a quick search on the terms "tuber" and "potato" in the 2009 version of the PB and did not encounter a single factually incorrect statement about them. Which makes me wonder, for about a nanosecond, what exactly is your motivation here?
You can "knock yourself out" on rebutting this, but I will no longer respond to your emotionally based drivel. Go have your time-sucking fun somewhere else, thank you.
Since you liken yourself to an expert, why don't you come up with your own diet template and write your own book? Or at least start your own "diet critique" blog. I'm sure there are untold dozens of people waiting to read it.
One-third of a turd is all they need.
Richard said, “The funniest was a big bowl of pinto beans and 4T of PS. We were very close to having another man on the moon.”
I just freaking did the same thing 2 days ago but in the form of mashed pinto beans cooked in lard (aka real refried beans) and then frozen. I secured a rope to the leg of my desk and tied it to my ankle in case I dozed off.
Could a daily dose of porridge be just as good as resistant starch?
“Many of the beneficial bacteria in our lower intestine feast on fibre which we can’t digest ourselves and so passes through the stomach and small intestine to be dealt with by the bacteria in our lower intestine. It’s this fibre in oats that seems to boost the bacteria.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01dgd9c/features/probiotics
Another article on the role of oats on feeding good gut bacteria:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2471095/Forget-trendy-probiotic-drinks–just-eat-porridge.html
Thanks for any thoughts you can share on this
I think I was one of those women. Still enjoying my RS with no hot flashes and better glucose regulation. Just been reading not commenting. :) I have no idea what is behind it but it has been a miracle for me.
Allison,
Were you replying to me? If so, what is your dosage of RS to avoid the hot flashes? I’m still having them, but they are not as severe as they were, and they seem to be on a sort of status quo. As I mentioned, I quit taking hormones about 3 weeks ago; nothing has gotten worse :)
Thank you,
Judy
I actually have been trying to get some insight to this question. I an interested in doing the Gut Project but I don’t know if that is the best determiner of health. I have recently started making major changes to my diet, going towards a paleo approach, heavy on fermented veggie & kefir. But I want to know exactly what changes the diet is making in my body. Do you consider measurement of gut flora to be the best indicator of positive changes in diet? Is there some other tests I should get to have a starting point and do some follow ups on?
I’ll try anything to improve IBS-D. I took one large soup spoon of Red Mill Unmodified potato starch mixed with a small container of Yo Baby yogurt an hour ago – the taste is not an issue at all. I know FOS causes extreme gas for me which doesn’t resolve with continued use, so I’m interested to see what the starch does. I’ll give it at least a week… thanks for your info!
“I’ll give it at least a week”
Let’s presume you have a highly non-optimal gut. Did it get that way in a week?
Took me 4-6 weeks.
Yes, 4-6 weeks for full effects, though improvements occurred within a week or so. For some, it’s almost an overnight thing, for others it takes a while.
Tatertot – Just got my American Gut Sample back. Wow – quite different than yours. The red bar for the fermicutes was 85% of my graph – small section of bacteroidetes (orange) and just a sliver (yelllow) of the proteobacteria.
My most abundant microbes –
Family Ruminococcaceae – 19.6%
Family Lachnospiracea – 12.4
Order Clostridiales — 11.4
Genus Ruminococcus – 10.5%
Enriched Mircrobes
Genus Lachnospira – 6.6% (6x ave)
Genus Rosebuira – 2.5% (5x ave)
Family Pastuerellacea – .1% – 24x ave!
Genus Sutterella – 2.0% – 4x
Rare taxa included – genus Methanobrevibacter, Genus Oribacterium, Genus Neisseria.
This sample was when I had SIBO – was eating almost no starch, certainly not resistant starch and taking VSL #3.
Any thoughts?
Ann – my thoughts are that I would like to spend a couple days tearing this apart, but I don’t have time. What I did, was painstakingly Google each microbe listed and read the stuff that came with Am Gut very closely.
Also, people are putting their results on the Am Gut FB page and dissecting them, maybe try that, too.
Well, this is a surprise. The facebook page has a screen shot of jeff leach’s results and mine look almost identical in the graph with % of firmicutes and our abundant microbes were almost the same. My enriched microbes are different though. One of them, genus sutterella was found in a study to be abundant in kids with autism who had constipation and diarrhea.
Shoot, I would totally do a before and after for you guys if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve already been on Bob’s potato starch for a few weeks now. Perhaps I’ll just completely sabotage my gut for a month for the sake of science.
Results of my N=1 experiment. Outstanding! 44 y.o. male generally good health, no real chronic health issues.
I have been eating a lowish-carb (mostly vegetables) paleo-ish (includes kefir and cheese) diet for several months to improve my A1c (5.6) and morning blood sugar (typ 92~99). After a few months of this low-starch diet, A1c had improved some, to 5.3, and morning fasting BG improved to 85~95. I also lost 9 lbs and plateaued (I was never a fat basterd). My Chris Kresser style “glucose challenge test” post-meal blood sugar peak using an 8-oz sweet potato was 176 at 40 mins; at 1 hour it was 147. This test told me I was very sensitive to carbs.
After a few weeks of taking 3-4 tbsp/day of Bob’s potato starch, morning sugar is now 75~90, and the 8-oz sweet potato test results… 130 at 35 mins, 125 at 40 mins, and 121 at 1 hr! Wow!
I have since lost another lb, but body composition seems to have improved. Had some strength gains in the gym and waistline has shrunk further, more clearly exposing a 5-pack (4 dinner rolls and a stubborn meat loaf). Hello there! I haven’t seen you since 1989! That’s right, all that big hair fell out!
Other notes.. I quickly ramped up from 1 tbsp/day to 4 tbsp/day. After a few days the fartage started with epic proportions. It was so bad one day the exit orifice became slightly sore, and I had to put a note on my office door: “pls. knock first”… and I would pretend to be on the phone to wait for the aroma to dissipate while I held it in, and just let my belly distend. I backed off to 2 tbsp/day and it mercifully stopped. Over about 10 days I was able to increase dosage back to 3~4 tbsp a day without further embarrassment.
Sleep… It seems to be a bit easier to sleep in when I go to bed late after holiday parties, and TMI changed character… different, but not quite as nice. I now have to sit there a little longer to get the stragglers out. (TMI !!!)
Happy holidays!
@Giskard – You are progressing pretty much exactly like I did. You will be pleased after 6-8 months for sure. All the odd-ball stuff you mentioned evens itself out over a month or two. Still, don’t get lulled into thinking you can relax your diet. Keep eating as clean as you can.
Thanks for the note!
Another update after a few more weeks:
– 1 hr after a large Asian buffet meal where I didn’t eat rice/starch but some of the sauces were sweet: 78 (!) <- I felt full and energetic
– 1 hr after a light dinner but with thin slice of bread pudding, a scoop of ice cream, and a half glass of wine: 90
This is incredible. A few months ago the buffet meal would have produced 120-130, the dessert would have produced 150-160.
“the exit orifice became slightly sore…”
Bunghole! The Great Cornholio commands it!
sorry ~ my inner 13 year old
Three and a half years ago, after a lifetime as a hugely dogmatic and proselytizing vegetarian, I became an omnivore to try to save my son. I honestly think that almost nothing could have gotten me to “convert” besides my child’s health crisis… He was six at the time, screamed for hours a day, could barely interact with anyone without tantrumming, and was severely anorexic…and 3 years of gluten-free-casein-free had done VERY little to heal his apparently very damaged intestinal state.
Since April 2010, my husband and I have worked our butts off to try to get our family healthy. Our son has worked harder than anyone I know in order to overcome his eating disorder. (The fact that he now eats an incredibly varied diet, and enjoys his food is – I like to say – nothing short of a miracle, except that miracles require a lot less work.) We spend every bit of “extra” money, practically, on good food. We eat tons of fatty meat, vegetables, ferments, broths, raw liver, etc. etc. Our kids (and their parents!) are much better for it…but I want us to get betterer! In particular, I really really really want my mental health and stability to improve, and for my husband’s auto-immune issues to continue improving. I want to not feel depressed and exhausted! And I want my kids to be absolutely perfect in every possible way. :)
I did an American Gut sample last month, before beginning down this fascinating rabbit hole concerning resistant starch. Now suddenly, as of last week, after 3.5 years sans grains/potatoes/sweet potatoes/etc., I’ve started feeding my family potato starch!
I’m trying not to grow my hopes too high, but I haven’t felt this significantly compelled to try any major dietary addition in a Very Long Time… I really, really appreciate the non-dogmatic and exploratory quality of this whole thread. I am planning to get another American Gut sample done in a couple of months, and I will report back.
Thank you so much for all these ideas, and clear-headed citizen science!
Regards,
Sarabeth
Some simple Q’s:
– Is Resistant Starch considered a soluble or insoluble fiber?
– If considered a type of fiber, how come the label on Bob’s Red Mill PS says zero fiber? Is it because it assumes the PS is cooked first?
– Has anyone tried Bob’s Red Mill Tapioca Flour?: http://www.bobsredmill.com/tapioca-flour.html
– How about Barry Farm Plantain Flour?: http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/flours/plantainflour.htm
too easy:
– Insoluble
– You guessed correctly, label is for cooked product
– Yes, we don’t like, spikes BG too much, but probably has RS we just don’t know what amount.
– Barry Farm Plantain flour is good stuff. So is http://www.wedoglutenfree.com
Tim,
WEDO appears to be a new company. Has anyone here tested it out? Website doesn’t tell much on ordering info or price. I just sent them an email asking for details.
T-Nat
http://www.amazon.com/WEDO-Gluten-Free-Banana-Flour/dp/B00HGJ7VAU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390093108&sr=8-1&keywords=wedo+banana+flour
Try here. Not sure about shipping costs.
@tatertot, would you please post your Taxa Summary. The additional detail that it provides would be interesting to examine. Thanks!
Let me try. If this doesn’t work, maybe we can do a blog on it:
Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Relative Abundance (%)
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales Bacteroidaceae Bacteroides
46.50
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Ruminococcaceae —
14.20
Bacteria Actinobacteria Actinobacteria Bifidobacteriales Bifidobacteriaceae Bifidobacterium
11.70
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Ruminococcaceae Faecalibacterium
5.90
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae —
4.30
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales — —
2.60
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales Rikenellaceae —
1.70
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales [Paraprevotellaceae] Paraprevotella
1.60
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Clostridiaceae —
1.40
Bacteria Tenericutes Mollicutes RF39 — —
1.00
Bacteria Proteobacteria Betaproteobacteria Burkholderiales Alcaligenaceae Sutterella
0.80
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales Porphyromonadaceae Parabacteroides
0.80
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Lachnospira
0.70
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Lachnobacterium
0.70
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Ruminococcaceae Oscillospira
0.60
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae [Ruminococcus]
0.60
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales [Barnesiellaceae] —
0.60
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Blautia
0.50
Bacteria Proteobacteria Deltaproteobacteria Desulfovibrionales Desulfovibrionaceae Desulfovibrio
0.40
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Veillonellaceae Phascolarctobacterium
0.40
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Roseburia
0.40
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales [Paraprevotellaceae] —
0.40
Bacteria Firmicutes Erysipelotrichi Erysipelotrichales Erysipelotrichaceae [Eubacterium]
0.20
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Ruminococcaceae Ruminococcus
0.20
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Coprococcus
0.20
Bacteria Firmicutes Bacilli Lactobacillales Streptococcaceae Streptococcus
0.20
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales [Odoribacteraceae] Butyricimonas
0.20
Bacteria Lentisphaerae [Lentisphaeria] Victivallales Victivallaceae —
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales [Mogibacteriaceae] —
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Veillonellaceae Dialister
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Dorea
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Lachnospiraceae Anaerostipes
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Clostridiaceae Clostridium
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Clostridia Clostridiales Christensenellaceae —
0.10
Bacteria Firmicutes Bacilli Lactobacillales Lactobacillaceae Lactobacillus
0.10
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales [Odoribacteraceae] Odoribacter
0.10
Bacteria Bacteroidetes Bacteroidia Bacteroidales Prevotellaceae Prevotella
0.10
Bacteria Actinobacteria Coriobacteriia Coriobacteriales Coriobacteriaceae Collinsella
0.10
Bacteria Actinobacteria Actinobacteria Actinomycetales Corynebacteriaceae Corynebacterium
0.10
Oh, well. Kind of a messed up thing to put in a comment, but you can see them all. Anything jump out at you? What surprised me was the low number of Lactobacillus at .1%. I will be curious to see if anyone in the AmGut project shows high levels of lacto.
From what I’m gathering, lactobacillus is probably good to eat, as in fermented food, but it doesn’t necessarily form thriving communities. In fact, eating dead lactobacillus may be just as important, or more so, than live cultures.
The term probiotoc refers to bifidobacteria and lactic acid producing bacteria (LAB), but the supplement industry seems to have morphed that into meaning lactobacillus. I think if you started digging, you’d see that a high percentage of the microbes represented here are actually producers of lactic acid.
I wonder if we will see anyone with high acidopholis numbers, it would be strange since that is what the vitamin companies always push. It seems easier from your RS research to increase Bifido strains. I am interested how this will effect kidney stone research, they are showing bifido and lacto, along with Oxalobacter formigenes digest and thus reduce oxalates in the blood and thus the kidneys. Could be relief for a horrible disease.
Thanks for posting your results tatertot!
A couple of things jump out at me when I compare your results to mine but first off you should know that I have ulcerative colitis and I have had it for 15 years. Also, I have been following the Perfect Health Diet for about a year and a half now.
You have 39 entries while I only have 32 which implies that I have significantly less diversity in my sample. Less diversity seems to be an issue with those of us with an inflammatory bowel disease based on my limited research.
My sample has no Actinobacteria! I ordered up some Prescript-Assist a few days ago and once it arrives I will allow both ends to enjoy in its delightfulness.
Dialister makes up 6.8% of my sample while only 0.1% of yours. My research on Dialister leads me to believe that some of the species thrive on blood and given that I was bleeding a week before providing my sample maybe that was the reason.
I wish we had species information as part of the Taxa Summary since the Genus is too broad when doing some research. I have over 10x more Roseburia than you. Roseburia intestinalis is a butyrate-producing bacterium but is that what we have I don’t know.
So I had some fun this morning posting about resistant starch in a zero-carb Facebook group (Charles Washington people). Much panty-bunching (thought I was accused of getting mine in a bunch.)
Mr. Nikoley’s name was taken in vain, or referred to disparagingly…
What, again?
Do any studies look at microbiomes in terms of potential SCFA ratios rather than species? Perhaps negative BGC reactions to RS are lacking in propionate producers for example.
I just got my pre-resistant-starch American Gut results back: http://microbio.me/americangut/img/results/000008964.pdf .
Back in November 2013, at the time of this sample, I’d been eating a very low-starch, “GAPS”-type diet for 3.5 years – the starchiest food I consumed was winter squash, but I ate (and still eat) tons of plants, with a variety that I like to think might at some point rival Jeff Leach’s. :) I make home made ferments of every description (kraut, pickles, kefir, yogurt, coconut water kefir, kombucha, natto…), and I calculated my average daily macronutrients for a week-long food diary using caloriecounter.com . These were:
– 2676 calories per day
– 61.1% fat (185g, of which 84g was sat. fat)
– 18.9% protein (129g.)
– 19.8% carb (135g.).
– 30g. fiber per day
I am 34, 5’6.5″, ~135 pounds, have one child on the autism spectrum (was much more profoundly so before implementing GAPS), and was strictly vegetarian from birth till age 30 (with two years of veganism as a teen). Maybe needless to say, my hormones pretty much got screwed, and I have yet to figure out a fully functional approach to fixing them. But I stagger on. Prior to GAPS I was very hypoglycemic, despite my very “clean”, whole-foods brand of vegetarianism.
Anyway, around new years’ (as I’ve posted previously), I added starch back into my (and my family’s) diet as per Jaminet’s recommendations, and started supplementing the whole family with potato starch, RS foods, NSP in the form of psyllium, glucomannan, inulin-rich foods, more commercial probiotics (pills), etc. etc. At first, there were some profound results, and some of these continue. But after about three weeks, unlike the enviable experience related by others, many of my and my family’s positive effects reverted back to their Same Old Annoying State.
But I am sure that prebiotics are a piece of the puzzle, and I’ll be curious to see if anything has changed when I next get my poo analyzed. :)
Sarabeth
You said: “But after about three weeks, unlike the enviable experience related by others, many of my and my family’s positive effects reverted back to their Same Old Annoying State.”
This had me puzzled, not only since you wrote this here, but had me puzzled since decades. The illness here appears to run it’s course in a two to two and a half weeks time. Furthermore, whatever intervention has been done in all this time, the effects, however good and promising it looked at first, wore off after the three weeks to one month time. (Interventions – I’ll spare to list, but many different approaches).
For some time I understood this to be the life cycle of a creature in the gut, as with the dietary interventions something “funny” happened: Attention – TMI
In an about 2 to 2 1/2 weeks cycle, huge, I mean really huge, sticky, foamy stools. And shortly before, during and after this two days event increased inflammation in face. And a flare up of the disease accompanying this. Maybe it is this “creature”. Maybe something else, and a combination. Getting to the point finally, though am not sure if able to really bring the point across entirely at this time.
Excerpt from a writing of David C. Holzman on Polly Matzingers work:
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/2/76.full
“Most notable, she said, is that when the immune system kills cancer cells, it does so by causing apoptotic rather than necrotic cell death, and apoptosis does not normally trigger an immune response. Moreover, the normal immune response lasts only about 2 weeks, said Matzinger.”
ABOUT 2 WEEKS
Another excerpt, not concerning time so much, than an immune response being provoked (Polly Matzinger):
http://youtu.be/1eSiAUHDhyA?t=37m30s
Start watching 37m30s, keep watching 1 min 10s the least.
Excerpt from a film (watched tonight and this morning, still has me shaken, not the excerpt but the film as such):
http://youtu.be/Tx7W662gd8M?t=1h26m3s
Start watching 1h26m3s, keep watching 1 min (the least :-) )
Sequencing, pulsing. Understanding the cycles within and use interventions accordingly appears to me as the next step to go. Any ancient knowledge about this around?
Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Peace.
P.S.: Came across your page years? ago, nice to “find” it again.
@TaterTot
Great post. I have suffered with neck and shoulder stiffness, for the first time in my life, since the ‘change’. Is there anyway to get this bacteria, Slackia that produces Equol? I see there are soy derived versions of Equol but would rather get it naturally if possible.
Sally – Wow, yeah, who knows where these things come from? My wife and I both have Slackia, Nancy did not. Looking at this paper: http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/60/8/1721.full it would appear about half the population does not. If you want to do some homework, read the below quote from the study and figure out what real foods we can eat to get the compounds that convert to equol.
Dietary isoflavones such as puerarin, daidzin and daidzein have recently aroused interest because of their potential health benefits (Anderson et al., 1999; Kurzer & Xu, 1997; Barnes, 1998; Setchell, 1998; Magee & Rowland, 2004). After ingestion from edible plants, these three compounds are converted to O-desmethylangolensin and equol as end products (Supplementary Fig. S1, available in IJSEM Online) (Heinonen et al., 1999, 2003). Equol, in particular, has been extensively studied as an effective phytoestrogen. However, only 30–50 % of individuals in the general population are capable of producing equol from daidzein (Rowland et al., 2000; Kelly et al., 1995). Because equol is produced exclusively by the intestinal bacterial metabolism of isoflavones, isolation and characterization of equol-producing bacterial strains has been attempted. Several strains have been reported to date (Maruo et al., 2008; Minamida et al., 2008).
@Tatertot
Thanks a bunch. I will read the research. I was just surprised to read that ‘neck and shoulder stiffness’ was even associated with menopause. The things you learn on this site!
I think samples of one are useful.
Kefir & yogurt (made properly, as admittedly not all commercial ones are) generally contain way more good bacteria than probiotic supplements. They may have been a factor – tho I tend to share your faith that RS may have been the main one.
It’s been said that you shouldn’t take too much RS2 as it lowers good bug levels after a certain point. Know anything about that?
It isn’t just “good” microbes and “bad” ones. Some microbes that are very necessary can BECOME a problem if they are in far too large a quantity. There also appear to be genetic switches involved that cause microbes to behave differently.