The Hungry Microbiome: why resistant starch is good for you
Now, get yourself on board.
- All the posts thus far on RS (90 posts and thousands of comments as of Mar, 2014).
- Lots of research here & here.
- My latest Resistant Starch-Based Dietary Guidelines (a must read to get an overall sense).
- Lots of comments from readers reporting the benefits they’ve seen.
- Isolated RS—Like Bob’s Red Mill
Potato Starch (NOT to be confused with FLOUR)—has zero carbs if taken raw, because you don’t digest it, your gut bugs do and if they don’t, it passes right through. On average, humans can process about 60g per day. If cooked, it’s about 10g carbs per TBS (per the label) of rapid digesting starch. Don’t cook it unless you intend to, like for thickening a sauce (see here). - Another supplemental source is Plantain Flour.
- There is also green Banana Flour, now.
- Here’s a long list of foods that contain RS. Some of the highest sources in food is cooked and cooled rice (parboiled is the highest, also lowest GI by far), cooked and cooled beans (prepare by traditional 24hr+ soaking), and cooked and cooled white potatoes. Sweet potatoes have almost no RS. Cooking and cooling forms RS3, a retrograde RS that remains intact when the food is reheated. Fried rice from out of the fridge is ideal for an RS food source.
- Per number 2, your BG won’t rise no matter how much isolated RS you consume (such as the potato starch). Moreover, it will significantly blunt spikes from other foods, a “second meal effect” that persists for hours, even into the next day. Regular consumption lowers both fasting BG and blunts spikes from other foods eaten anytime, so dose timing is unimportant if taken regularly. This blunting is most profound on a normal carb intake. In ketosis, there is little blunting (see here).
- The benefits most commonly touted are: lowered fasting BG, BG blunting, better sleep, increased energy, well being and calm, mental clarity, vivid dreams, curing of chronic constipation and infrequency, soft stools, satiation with gentle hunger, and increased body temperature (I think I got them all…let me know if I missed any).
- The problems most commonly reported are: flatulence and headache. Most have reported having flatulence, but for most it diminishes over time. It seems most prominent when taken with food and least when taken in water on an empty stomach. Taken with beans can be a hilarious experience if you’re up for it. For some, going periods of 2-3 days now & then without supplementing seems to help get beyond it. Headaches have only been reported by a handful of people. One or two reported intestinal distress, but I chalk that up to oversensitivity to flatulence.
- Most of the studies use 30g of potato starch, which is 4 tablespoons. Above 60g will probably pass on through. Many have begun with 1TBS per day, and increased up to 4 each week. However, dose, frequency, how it’s administered (with food, kefir, yogurt—cool or warm—or just water by itself) is something each person has to experiment and figure out for themselves.
- In general, even targeting RS foods will probably at best yield 10g of RS daily. Thus, supplementation is a good idea to get into the 20-30g range which, as stated, is what so many studies have used to document many of the benefits we’ve been touting. Paleoman had a far wider variety of high RS foods that just isn’t in our diets commonly (cattail and tree pollen, anyone?).
Potato Starch (NOT to be confused with FLOUR)—has zero carbs if taken raw, because you don’t digest it, your gut bugs do and if they don’t, it passes right through. On average, humans can process about 60g per day. If cooked, it’s about 10g carbs per TBS (per the label) of rapid digesting starch. Don’t cook it unless you intend to, like for thickening a sauce (
.
, now.- Elixa
- Prescript-Assist
- AOR Probiotic-3
- Primal Defense Ultra
- (See this Update post of two additional probiotics I recommend, and why: Gut Bugs, Probiotics, Prebiotics…And how our microbes make us who we are)
- 1 raw egg
- 1 piece of fresh fruit (apple with skin, banana, handful of frozen berries, orange, etc., or whatever you like)
- 2 TBS Potato Starch
- 1 TBS Green Banana Flour
- 1 TBS Plantain Flour
- 1/4 tsp Inulin / FructoOligoSaccharides
- 1 Scoop Amazing Grass High ORAC
- 4 oz Odwalla-esq fruit/veggie smoothie blend of choice
- 4 oz Kefir (plain or any flavor of choice)
- 1 each of the aforementioned SBO probiotics, caps pulled apart and dumped in (or, just pop them; I mix them in because I split this with the wife unit)
- Handfull of ice cubes
- Water as needed for desired consistency in a good blender.
I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this or not, but one thing I’ve noticed, and it may bear mentioning for those whom the flatulence never seems to go away, is that sucralose (Splenda) tends to undo the whole RS adaptation process. I’ve read many places that it wreaks havoc on your gut flora, and my RS experiments have proved it as far as I’m concerned. I don’t usually use sucralose, but sometimes when on the road it’s either hotel room coffee (ick!) or my old standby, the low-carb energy drink. After drinking one or two of these and then coming back home and starting again with the starch, it’s like that first week of adaptation all over again. So if you’re still drinking diet sodas in any form, here’s another reason to quit.
How about the sucralose in protein powders?
How about stevia?
Any update on the artificial sweeteners/sucralose or even stevia? Do the sweeteners undo or stop all the good properties of RS???
I haven’t seen any real connection between RS, gutbugs, and artificial sweeteners. I use stevia and recently am trying out agave syrup (made from FOS, a prebiotic).
Jennifer, supposedly sucralose is not ‘digestible’ by bacteria. Which is somewhat alarming since people are excreting it into the ‘environment’. It takes time for it to be degraded.
Anyway, I put 1 teaspoon of Splenda into each mug of tea I drink for breakfast (usually 2). Aside from that I don’t use any artificial sweeteners or even sugar. Doesn’t appear to have any adverse effect at that low dose.
I’ve not noticed any problems with stevia, and honestly don’t see how there would be. Feel free to prove me wrong, though. My info on the gut bug havoc wreaking comes mostly from things I’ve read on MarksDailyApple, and in “The Four Hour Body.” I don’t think of stevia as an “artificial” sweetener so much as a sweet tasting spice that I like in my coffee.
I’ve not noticed any problems with stevia, and honestly don’t see how there would be. Feel free to prove me wrong, though. My info on the gut bug havoc wreaking from sucralose comes mostly from things I’ve read on MarksDailyApple, and in “The Four Hour Body.” I don’t think of stevia as an “artificial” sweetener so much as a sweet tasting spice that I like in my coffee.
Sucralose is an ingredient in Yakult Light – so it mustn’t harm the lactobacillus casei in that.
Xylitol is a natural sweetener with a GI of 7 that looks and tastes almost exactly like sugar, i.e. no nasty after taste like stevia. It has many health benefits including the destruction of bad bacteria in the mouth and the feeding of good bacteria in the gut:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24336061/?i=1&from=xylitol%20gut
It is very easy to use as it can replace sugar one for one in all situations except baking with yeast, as it provides no glucose for the yeast to ferment and produce a rise.
Xylitol is NOT a “natural sweetener” and is fooling a lot of people in the marketplace due to VERY misleading marketing, the giveaway is the “itol” at the end, it is a SUGAR ALCOHOL aka JUNK just like Mannitol, Sorbitol and all the other junk Sugar Alcohols. Xylitol can be a “natural” occurring Sugar in fruits apparently, but what is sitting on the shelf for sale is NOT natural, and it IS Sugar, unlike Stevia which is Natural and does NOT always have a bitter aftertaste at all, some brands do and some taste just like Sugar (but be careful because there are JUNK brands of Stevia too like “Truvia” which is again badly processed and has additives).
I did a lot of research on Sugar Substitues and there is ONLY one worth using and can be used in same sentence with “Health” as I mentioned below, Stevia. If Sugar Alcohol is not enough to ward people off of Xylitol, then people should read up on how this junk is processed, it is NASTY.
http://www.naturalnews.com/022986_xylitol_health_sugar.html
http://draxe.com/xylitol-side-effects/
Quotes: “Xylitol is a processed sugar, after being hydrogenated and having toxic chemicals added to xylan from corn or other plant material, and then removed, you get xylitol. For anyone who wants to be healthy, you need to avoid processed sugars, it is blatantly clear that processed sugars, like xylitol, are extremely harmful to humans”
” First, because the body cannot digest them properly the non-metabolized portion ferments and creates a favorable environment for harmful bacteria to colonize. Exacerbating yeast problems, many people will also experience constipation, gas/bloating and diarrhea. (5)
Second, as with all toxins, because the body cannot digest them sufficiently precious metabolic resources are wasted in an attempt to clear it out of your digestive system and can thus cause unwanted weight gain.”
“The main adverse effects reported from oral xylitol use at a dosage exceeding 40 to 50 g/day included nausea, bloating, borborygmi (rumbling sounds of gas moving through the intestine), colic, diarrhea, and increased total bowel movement frequency”
” of the 345+ scientific papers referencing stevia, one message is clear: it is safe and effective.”
MUCH much more in the articles please read them anyone who is using or thinking of using this junk
Jason, I find your comments and the two references you provide, which just appear to quote each other, rather hysterical, opinionated and lacking in facts or indeed accuracy. The author of the first article really ought to do some basic math before stating “consuming 400 grams would be highly toxic to humans”, unless by humans he means children weighing around 24kg (53 pounds). If it takes 1.65g of xylitol to kill a 100g rat 50% of the time, it would take a whopping 1485g to kill a 90kg human 50% of the time (approximately 200 pound – not unusual
these days). Therefore, eating the more likely amount of say 50g per day, i.e. 30 times less than the potentially lethal dose, is far from toxic and anyone consuming almost 1.5kg (3.27 pounds) of any sweetener in a day surely wants to die anyway.
I’d rather refer to the highly respected Chris Kresser, who writes in more measured tones of the many therapeutic benefits of xylitol in this article:
https://chriskresser.com/are-xylitol-sorbitol-and-other-sugar-alcohols-safe-replacements-for-sugar/
In which he states:
“Compared with artificial sweeteners, sugar alcohols have very few safety and toxicity studies, and are generally accepted as safe. In one long-term human study, 35 participants consumed xylitol as their primary dietary sweetener for two years, and no adverse effects other than GI distress were observed, and GI symptoms dissipated after the first couple months. The amount of xylitol consumed during this trial regularly exceeded 100g per day, often going over 200g per day, depending on the participant.”
Note, 200g is 50 teaspoons and crazily high!
Then there are these research papers on PubMed, which further conclude that xylitol is both beneficial and non-toxic:
Comparing the efficacy of xylitol-containing and conventional chewing gums in reducing salivary counts of Streptococcus mutans: An in vivo study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26942114/?i=1&from=xylitol%20gum%20dental%20caries
“Xylitol-containing chewing gums are more effective than conventional gums in reducing salivary levels of S. mutans in individuals with poor-moderate oral hygiene.”
Gut microflora interactions with xylitol in the mouse, rat and man:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/4076932/?i=7&from=xylitol%20gut
“Xylitol feeding caused a clear shift in the rodent faecal microbial population from Gram-negative to Gram-positive bacteria. In human volunteers a similar shift was observed even after a single 30-g oral dose of xylitol.”
In vitro growth of four individual human gut bacteria on oligosaccharides produced by chemoenzymatic synthesis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23580006/?i=2&from=xylitol%20gut
“The disaccharides β-D-glucosyl-xylitol and β-D-glucosyl-(1,4)-xylose noticeably stimulated growth yields of L. acidophilus NCFM, and additionally, β-D-glucosyl-(1,4)-xylose stimulated B. longum Bl-05……Thus several of the structurally well-defined OS supported growth of beneficial gut bacteria.”
Effects of xylitol on blood glucose, glucose tolerance, serum insulin and lipid profile in a type 2 diabetes model of rats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22832597/?i=8&from=xylitol%20insulin
“The data of this study suggest that xylitol can be used not only as a sugar substitute but also as a supplement to antidiabetic food and other food products.”
Yes, xylitol is highly processed just as many other common foods are, but by inferring hydrogenation somehow confers the same unhealthy characteristics on the end product that it does on vegetable oils – when it produces transfats – the writer further erodes his credibility.
We use xylitol toothpaste to keep our teeth and gums healthy and birch-sourced xylitol crystals as our sweetener of choice – because of its ease of use, palatability and health benefits. However, we do keep our gut flora healthy by eating properly and with lots of probiotics in the form of kefir, fermented veg and natto. We also keep that flora well fed with prebiotics such as resistant starch, of which of course xylitol is one!
Alaister, I find it hysterical that you have bought so heavily into the Xylitol Koolaid that you just toss aside the OBVIOUS negative aspects of Xylitol almost to the point of delusion.
“Highly processed as many other common foods are” LOL Ah yeah, those “common foods” are NOT food, they are JUNK like all “processed foods”, and anyone who is truly concerned with their health and informed enough to realize this does not regularly consume processed “anything”, this is Health 101 I mean seriously? WOW.
It’s also not just that it is “processed” and goes through “Hydrogenation”, its the HOW of it, like the high heat, using toxic Nickel etc. There are NO studies that can confirm the long term safety of Xyltiol because they have not been done, and very few are even done on short term effects v.s something like Stevia, which again is clearly more Natural anyway.
Then there are the negative GUT effects of Xylitol that even the Chiropractor Kessler (who compares it to other junk sweetners where Xylitol “might” be the lesser of the evils) also notes: “Because sugar alcohols are FODMAPs and are largely indigestible, they can cause diarrhea by pulling excess water into the large intestine. The fermentation of sugar alcohols by gut bacteria can also cause gas and bloating, and sugar alcohols may decrease fat absorption from other foods”. People with a Healthy Gut balance “might” do okay with some FODMAPS, people having Gut issues will not with a Fodmap like this and this is why it is banned from expert created Gut healing Protocols. Also Xylitol should NOT be compared to other “healthy” Prebiotics like R.S, Inulin and others, because again it is not natural and is a highly processed Sugar Alcohol which is really a no-brainer to avoid when talking about health anyway.
I’m pretty sure your mind is closed enough that the text above and this text is not useful and wasted on you but others can look objectively on these arguments, do some more googling and decide for themselves whether or not ingesting Xylitol seems like a good idea or not and whether potential benefits outweigh the potential risks when something more natural with more studies on Safety exists.
On the contrary, I have a very open mind, which I’ve changed quite a few times – once I’m persuaded by reasoned argument that there is a better way than the one I’ve been following. Sadly though, yours is not a reasoned argument, but an ugly rant by a fanatic who refuses to listen to reason – so my mind remains unchanged.
You completely ignore my correction of the writer regarding the fatal threshold for xylitol consumption, which is way beyond that suggested. You also fail to address the studies I quoted, which concluded xylitol is both safe and beneficial. Instead you rely on a blogger’s use of the words ‘may’ and ‘could’ to somehow confirm the sweetener is toxic, even when the overall conclusion in the blog is positive.
Xylitol is made naturally in the body in small quantities and xylitol is xylitol no matter where it is produced, so I fail to see how the body would produce a chemical that was toxic to its own systems. You suggest that by using toxic chemicals in the production process these must somehow be present in the end product – well please show me an analysis that proves that and I’ll certainly take note.
But all that is secondary to the experience of my family. I’ve already said how I use xylitol for its health benefits, well both my son and daughter in their thirties have done the same – with great results. Both suffered painful bloating since their early teens after eating refined carbohydrates, so they are obviously susceptible to any assault on their gut flora, but both have entirely eliminated this condition by reducing their carbs and replacing sugar with xylitol. Certainly no ill effects noticeable there in these sensitive individuals.
You are correct that readers can read our respective comments, Google the subject further and come to their own conclusions about xylitol, but I believe they’ll start doing so more from my point of view than from yours, simply because I present facts in a quietly confident manner whereas you stoop to insults and ridicule in an attempt to cower the reader into accepting your view – and that’s not the way of a serious teacher.
Though I am quite sure your mind IS closed, that doesn’t even matter because you are clearly lacking common sense. You are the koolaid drinking fanatic here just as I correctly suspected and noted, and YOU started the derogatory comments, I just threw it back in your face in my following post, my first post did nothing more than correct your incorrect statements and point out some negative facts on Xylitol.
I ignored your correction of the “math” because I could care less whether the guy actually made a mistake on it or not, it doesn’t change the Xylitol facts and the rest of the information. You ignored the part of my first post where I said I did a lot of research on all sugar substitutes, which included pros and cons on each, studies etc so I seen the studies (which do NOT cite long term safety as I already noted) you linked and many many more (like ones that point out just 10 grams can kill a 44 pound dog through Liver failure and hypoglycemia, long term toxicology study on mice and rats where there was a significant increase in the incidence of adrenal medullary hyperplasia, Bladder Kidney and Liver tumours, increased mortality rate, and more and more such studies), and my conclusion is Stevia is the clear winner for very obvious logical reasons as already stated, reasons you toss aside as I also already stated, your choice, I’m sure some others will use their noggin.
Reasons in fact such as those cited by Organic Chemist Shane Elison where he explains the production process of Xylitol in “Xylitol: Should We Stop Calling it Natural?”. He explains, “Xylitol is a molecular cousin to sugar and is derived from the crushed fibers of sugar cane […birch wood or corn…] using a multi-step chemical reaction that involves the use of sulfuric acid, calcium oxide, phosphoric acid and active charcoal. The end product is a bleached, powdery blend of sugar alcohols that taste sweet on the tongue but are not absorbed by the body. Xylitol will rip up your insides, namely the digestive tract. It’s being touted as a natural product, most likely so that it can bypass regulation. Thus, very little studies exist on its side effects.” It should be noted too that Danisco is the world’s leading supplier of Xylitol, and they are a DUPONT company, informed people will know all about Dupont and them and their scumbag ways, like burying key information and studies on PFOA aka Teflon garbage that is a highly toxic carcinogen, and disrupts reproductive processes (and a whole LOT more). Here is another link of information with studies and references where WHO evaluated Xylitol for those who want to look objectively at some of the potential harm (and this was from 1977!): http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v13je11.htm
Nicotine has studies showing its benefits and so does Fluoride, so do Pharmaceutical Drugs for that matter, I don’t know about you (I have my suspicions) but I am informed enough to realize that ingesting these things is not Healthy. If I found out Broccoli was processed the same way as Xyltiol I would stop eating it too, again I don’t know about you but I also choose not to ingest things like Broccoli that are full of GMO’s, when a clearly better option exists. Xylitol is a highly processed Sugar Alcohol where nasty toxins are used in the processing, and since a FAR superior option exists that is NOT a Sugar Alcohol and is not highly processed with nasty toxins and is actually Natural and not a Synthetic version of itself, I will continue using the clearly better option just as I decided many years ago.
Of course I am still talking to the “wall” here who chooses to ignore basic reasoning which I will do no further, your original post has been corrected some of the negatives of the Sugar Alcohol have been put forward that is all I wanted to convey to others, that and a clearly far superior option exists to those actually open-minded enough to look further into it and actually do so. You can continue to try and defend Xylitol and yourself til the Cows come home it won’t change the fact Stevia is a much more natural and proven safer and thus better option
I’m finding this all rather tedious now, as your continuing assertion that I’m a ‘koolaid drinking fanatic’ couldn’t be further from the truth. I will however put the lie to one of your further attempts at fear-mongering, i.e. the toxic effect of xylitol on dogs. Yes, xylitol can kill dogs, but here’s the full story from:
http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-health-information/article/animal-health/xylitol-toxicity-in-dogs/4340
“In both humans and dogs, the level of blood sugar is controlled by the release of insulin from the pancreas. Xylitol does not stimulate the release of insulin from the pancreas in humans. However, when non-primate species (e.g., a dog) eat something containing xylitol, the xylitol is quickly absorbed into the bloodstream, resulting in a potent release of insulin from the pancreas. This rapid release of insulin results in a rapid and profound decrease in the level of blood sugar (hypoglycemia), an effect that occurs within 10-60 minutes of eating the xylitol. Untreated, this hypoglycemia can be life-threatening.”
Enough said!
Yes you said too much with your very first uninformed post, and you ARE a Koolaid drinking fanatic as even your final post PROVES once again, really every subsequent post showed it more and more its quite sad really and the only lie here is the one you continue to tell yourself.
You are grossly uninformed on many levels, came here spouting only the potential positives of Xylitol and left out the many important negative aspects which have now been brought to light and you STILL foolishly choose to ignore them, then you even try to correct informed sources of information provided with uninformed sources like the last link in a failed effort to support your uninformed POV and foolish pride, THAT is a true koolaid drinking fanatic through and through, you have basically defined it nice work LOL
“Fear-mongering”, “Lying”, please, truly a pathetic new childish level even for you, I did not make anything up here like you would probably like to believe, I provided FACTS and studies that show the negative aspects, only a FOOL would continue to ignore them and then try to defend their uninformed losing position by accusing the actual informed person of pushing fear, I mean you get more clueless with each post.
See someone that actually did FULL unbiased research on the subject, ie NOT you, would know the link you provided about Dogs is NOT the full story and just another uniformed source, of which there are many out there, too many. See if you weren’t such a fanatic and actually open-minded you might have actually went to the last link I provided and seen more of the ACTUAL story on why it is toxic to Dogs (yet that is old news as I stated), heck even the terrible source of info that is Wikipedia shows exactly what I said is TRUE AND provides the studies where that info came from, there is the so called lie just sitting there LOL, “Xylitol causes Hypoglycemia which can be fatal.” From Study, “Dogs develop elevated liver enzyme activity within 12 to 24 hours after xylitol ingestion and several of these dogs developed acute liver failure subsequent to xylitol exposure. 5 of 8 dogs were either euthanized or died, 3 dogs were necropsied; 2 had severe hepatic necrosis, while the third had generalized loss of liver cells with collapse of the liver’s architecture. The lowest esti-
mated dose associated with liver failure to date has been 0.5 g/kg” ALL EXACTLY as I said.
A little advice, next time you try and pick a debate with someone in the Internet, if they say they did a lot of research, just don’t.
How very fortunate it is we’re not dogs then!
Bye, bye.
STEVIA: Just a note for those who responded to this post related to stevia: For many people it is NOT a benign sweetener. It is related to grasses and flowers (esp dandelions), so is an allergen for people with grass / dandelion allergies, such as me. A very small amount gives me severe sinus symptoms and headache. I am alarmed at how many products add it, and it is usually the last item on an ingredients label that is already hard to read, and how many people I know are putting it into the foods they prepare and then serve, thinking it is safe for everyone. Additionally, as I understand the data, if you are trying to get over sugar-cravings, stevia and any of the other sugars and substitutes still trick the brain into thinking the sugar is coming, resulting in biological processes that are not healthy.
The truth about all this is an ever constant moving target…..thanks for all the info on this blog!!
I am trying potato starch. I have not seen any mention of Hi-Maize Resistant Starch Which appears to be very high hi RS. Richard. what are your thoughts on Hi-Maize? Dennis
I’ve recently read that you do NOT want to be taking copious amounts of the isolated RS powders.
Stick with whole foods. Sorry, don’t remember the details but worth searching out. That may
also be a reason if people are having trouble.
And where did you recently read that, Suzy?
And what do you mean by “copious amounts?”
I assume Paleman = Paleoman. Not trying to be annoying, but I imagine some people will be asking you who Paleman is and how can we find his research :) Feel free to delete my comment when its fixed.
Just providing a #racism update. #Mysogyny was this morning. :)
Today I learnt Potato Starch != Potato Flour, unfortunately have already bought a bag of the latter.
@J
Good point. You know what? I drink so little soda anyway (like maybe one per month?) that if I have one, I’ll just pop for the real thing. A small. We were at a place the other day that had craft root beer on tap. Had some without ice (it was chilled). It was good (had maybe 6 oz. They also had craft cola made with sugar cane on tap. Tastes totally unlike any cola I ever tasted. Had maybe 4 oz of that. Dose makes the poison.
@Mike
Well, that alone makes this post worth it. You’re not the first. Yea, potato flour is just desiccated and milled cooked potato. Concentrated potato!
Would have been funny seeing your face after you meter your BG though. :)
I for one find these kinds of summing up posts extremely helpful. Sometimes I get bogged down in all the comments and posts with different tweaks. I am late to the kefir party but I am hooked on that as well. After just a little bit of kefir the other day I felt preternaturally calm and just had a sense of well being. Again, many thanks for this Richard.
@Cathy
As you may imagine, it is entirely my pleasure. ….As much as I hate it when that happens because generally, I’m not happy unless you’re not happy. :)
Richard, i wanted to see what you thought of this, but wasn’t sure where the best place is to set some words to you. i’ve been going pretty heavy with the resistant starch (cooked and cooled white rice/potatoes, potato starch, green bananas etc…) i’m feeling great. of course then i have to come across an article like this, http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/links-carbs-gut-microbes-colon-cancer-86437/ the ‘carb digesting bacteria’ referred to in there i’m assuming is not the same as those that digest resistant starch? or would it bewise to cut back on the RS protocol? thank you in advance,
mark
Hi Mark
Already covered.
https://freetheanimal.com/2014/08/resistant-doesnt-actually.html
If there’s bad bug overgrowth…nystatin yay or nay? (oregano oil and caprylic acid just ain’t cuttin it!)
2013 Toxicology publication: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24219506
Sucralose is not inert. The claim by the manufacturer was that it passes through the GI tract unchanged. Well… hm. I did wonder if people had sweet shit from this stuff. I guess maybe not.
I’ve noticed an ongoing discrepancy when it comes to describing dose or serving size.
The information printed on a bag of Bob’s Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch (UPS) states that one (1) tablespoon equals 12 grams, with a total carb count of 10 grams per tbsp. Four tablespoons would equal 48 grams, of course.
Based on Richard and Tatertot’s info that UPS is ca. 78 to 80% resistant starch, 48 grams (4 tbsp.) of UPS would supply somewhere between 37.4 and 38.4 grams of resistant starch.
Just sayin’…
@Richard
Thanks. I’m having a trouble finding a legit Potato Starch in Australia (for less than the $1M a bag of Bob’s costs here).
One health food shop thought Starch & Flower were one & the same. Waiting to hear back from The Gluton Free Co. about their product.
@Mike, you can order it through iherb (only $8 delivery to Aust)
Did you end up hearing back? I purchased the gluten free co’s potato starch am yet to add it to my diet though.
Aaron, I’m sure this is too late for you, but for any other Aussies out there, I contacted Gluten Free Co. and they said theirs was cooked. The only place I have found uncooked starch was from Bulk Whole Foods. I checked with them, they said it was dried with heaters, but not cooked, so I figure that’s probably ok. Their postage is $15 for anything up to 5kilos, so I got 5 kilos and it worked out around $10 a kilo. Cheaper than Mt. Uncle’s green banana flour.
For any other Aussies out there who may come across this, I tried Lotus brand Potato Starch. Available at any health food store. Seems to be the right thing.
The Bob’s Red Mill is not actually made by them, just repackaged. If you stick a teaspoon of your starch in some water and leave it for a moment, it should sink to the bottom of the glass – that is how you can tell if it is the right stuff.
We’ve been through the ‘cooked’ issue with the Americans getting Bob’s RM. There is confusion over this because Bob’s will tell people their PS is ‘cooked’ but as Tater has pointed out, this means the skins are steamed off and heat is used to do that. I have used the Gluten Free Co’s successfully and it definitely passes the ‘non-Newtonian fluid/sink in the glass’ test so my guess is the cooking is for skin removal only.
I’m using Mt Uncle’s Green Banana Flour, which you can buy from Wray Organics all around Brisbane.
I’m also in Brisbane. The price of unmodified potato starch made me consider other options, because the benefits after the first month were amazing. And potatoes are cheap. So now I just make smoothies with raw potatoes. At 25g RS in 100g raw potato (!00g raw potato isn’t much in a smoothie), its a no brainer, and if you peel them first and use floury rather than waxy potatoes, the you don’t even taste the potato – the starch granules do have a kind of grainy texture, but I’m used to that now.
Also, if you really do want to make the raw starch, just blend the raw potato and let it sit in the fridge over night for the starch to settle, then pour off the water.
Finally, FWIW, sucralose has never given me any problems in nearly ten years of low carbing, unlike the fructose in fresh fruit I was trying to avoid. I also use saccharin and stevia, but never aspartame. I’m not questioning people’s personal experiences, but in years of research, I’ve never seen any credible studies casting shadows over either sucralose or saccharin- and they’re both very well investigated. That’s not to say they’re isn’t a lot of adverse internet chatter ( curiously, more about sucralose than saccharin – maybe because vested interests seem to have more to lose from wide acceptance of the more palatable of the two, so maybe they foment it).
Not trying to distract from the RS factor of course.
And if you want to use a blender to try to free your PS, it helps to have a powerful blender and ensure the blades are sharp.
Actually, the reason I commented about using sucralose is that I haven’t had any flatulence issues whatsoever, and my raw potato, cacao powder whey protein raw egg , cinnamon, and ginger smoothies always have the psyllium husk that Tim’s talked about (flooding the colon with butyrate….) . Do other people who include psyllium still get flatulence issues ? In fact when I first started the PS, I was really apprehensive about the gas, ( that comment somebody made about their 6 year old asking why the air smelled like poop – hilarious) so when it didn’t happen I thought I must be doing it wrong.
I’m utterly a little shocked anyone who cares about their health (especially GUT!) would use something like Sucralose aka Splenda without doing a bit of digging, this is just one article with 18 references there are more, NASTY shit that is
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/12/18/sucralose-side-effects.aspx
AFAIK, there is NOT one good “artifical” sweetner out there, they are all toxic and unsurprisingly. As was mentioned, Stevia would not fall in that category, because it is “natural”, its the only good substitute for actual Sugary products that I am aware of from all the digging I did.
“Most of the studies use 30g of potato starch, which is 4 tablespoons.”
Richard, maybe I’m missing something, but 1 tbsp = 12g. So 4tbsp = 48g. Right?
I would put something about SCFAs in your list. Another RS benefit I’ve experienced: increased and more steady energy throughout the day.
I’ve done two “cycles” of supplementing RS over the last 3 weeks. The first time was two weeks worth of supplementing in the morning and evening, each, with 2 tablespoons worth of Bob’s PS in water. I experienced awesome sleep and vivid dreams but can’t report on much else besides a moderate amount of flatulence. Then I stopped supplementing it one weekend and on the second night without, I was up until 3 a.m. shitting over and over and over … again – not fun. The day after I felt fine (just a little tired).
A few days later I began supplementing the same amounts again but began mixing it in full fat yogurt instead of plain water. Same good sleep and dreams as well as moderate flatulence. Then a week later I stopped taking it over a weekend, and again, the second day without had me up all night shitting my brains out.
What I did to the critters was probably a bit harsh with the suddenness of the supplementation start/stopping, but I was wondering if others experienced what I assume to be massive die-off not too long after ceasing RS supplementation? Next time I’ll try tapering. Also, in the last month or two my diet soda intake has skyrocketed – so that could be mucking things up.
@Joe
You don’t understand. Those numbers presume it’s going to be used in cooking. Raw, it’s ZERO carbs. The starch granules pass through, and only your gut bugs can do anything about them and if they don’t, you will end up with intact potato starch granules in your poop.
Man, I thought that was clear. Did you read carefully? See #3, again.
I woke up at 6 am today after normally waking at 7. Didn’t eat til 6 pm except coffee tea and a tablespoon of coconut oil. Seems like when my gut is working the PS I’m way less hungry…much more than when I was on bullet proof java. And my Morning blood sugar has dropped from 92 to 80-82. I expect to see some weight drop very soon.
@Mike
I have been getting potato starch from the Asian grocer in Preston (Melbourne). Also available from a couple of stores in the Preston Market. Very inexpensive and passes the gel test when heated, so I think it is the “real deal”.
I got headaches from increased RS either from food or potato starch. Taking Prescipt Assist solved that problem. Did the others who reported headaches try an SBO? Did it help? I think it would be good to gather info on that because the headache response might be more usefully viewed as diagnostic for a need for probiotics
@Ellen
Might the headaches be a result of the renormalization of blood glucose levels (downward, obviously)?
Pedro
No that was not the cause. I have been watching/ testing my blood sugar for a number of years now and have a good feel for where it is vis a vis how I feel. It has been quite stable and in a pretty good range since long before RS. With RS it has gone about 10 points lower on on average .
Clearly I had some empty cages that the Prescript Assist filled. But the Prescript Assist had no effect on blood sugar.
@ellen
I noticed this phenomenon. I was getting headaches after starting PS. Then I took a break, added prescript assist and started PS again. No headaches anymore!
@Kelly
Unfortunately, the gel test is probably not word. Corn starch will do the same thing.
The only sure test if an unfamiliar product is to load up in a stable BG state with 4T in water only and measure BG over an hour or two. If RS, you should get no more than normal +/- fluctuations.
Kelly, I have also found big bags of potato starch at the Korean supermarket here in Toronto. Probably you are finding the same thing. They use it as coating for frying meat and seafood so it’s quite popular and easy to source.
I just looked up European potato starch and it’s all over the place. I don’t understand why anyone would have trouble finding it. Contact the manufacturers to find out where the stuff is sold. Like really. Do some research peeps. That’s what internet is for.
“Man, I thought that was clear. Did you read carefully?”
Yes, I read carefully. I only put the carb count down for sake of completeness, but read the final paragraph of my first post above to get the gist. Was not looking to confuse the matter.
Regardless, are we going with 4 tablespoons equals 48 grams of potato starch? If so, 38 grams of potato starch per day would yield 30 grams of resistant starch, using the 80% figure, would it not?
@Joe
After reading our comment again I may have misunderstood what you were getting at. At any rate, it’s Tim sometime way way back that came up with, I think, 32g of total RS in 4T of Bob’s RMPS. Call it 30, and who measures a T precisely anyway? I can’t recall his explanation for that. Any rate, I’ve emailed him.
He’s been very busy, which is why he’s not been in comments as actively as usual. And as a matter of fact, I posted this because starting tomorrow, I myself am going to be very busy. So, hopefully this can serve as an anchor for a few days.
Just getting on this train coming from a fairly strict paleo diet that would occasionally involve yogurt…
As far as the cooked and cooled rice, potatoes, and beans – do they need to be cold when eaten? Can they be warmed somewhat?
@Heisenbug,
Remember that Potato starch is roughly 80% RS and 20% water trapped inside the RS granules. And the exact amounts of RS may vary with the brand.
“As far as the cooked and cooled rice, potatoes, and beans – do they need to be cold when eaten? Can they be warmed somewhat?”
From the post #5:
“Cooking and cooling forms RS3, a retrograde RS that remains intact when the food is reheated. Fried rice from out of the fridge is ideal for an RS food source.”
Let’s see if I can remember.
The studies put potato starch right around 75-80% by weight, so 12g of weight in 1TBS should be 9g of RS at the lower end.
It’s kind of hard to decipher from the same studies, but they may also be deriving their figure from the total carbs in potato starch, which would be the total weight minus it’s water weight (20% moisture), so if you derive the RS rating from the total carb weight (10g in 1TBS), you’d end up with 7.5g RS per TBS.
I’ve always just figured it was about 8g per TBS, 4TBS being 32g (but if you round everything up, it could actually be 40g)
So call 4TBS 30-40g, don’t measure your TBS closely, and you are good to go,
Since there is no defined perfect dose, I think 4TBS is a really good start.
I have a list of amounts used in about 15 studies and they all found that the results they were looking for occurred between 30-40g/day.
@gabriella
I’ve found a good source of PS at Bulk Barn. At a good price too. And I’m pretty sure it’s ‘unmodified’, as I’ve put a tablespoon into a glass of cold water and gel settled on the bottom.
Maybe Richard can confirm this method to determining if the PS is unmodified. Also something to consider adding to #3.
PS – appreciate all the effort you’re putting into this, Richard (and Tim). Very interesting…
“Remember that Potato starch is roughly 80% RS and 20% water trapped inside the RS granules. And the exact amounts of RS may vary with the brand.”
OK, I think that’s Tim’s calculation. BRMPS lists 10g carbs per TBS. So looks like he just took 80% of that, called it 32g.
Now that we’re deeper into this, the Q is, does the carb count include the water, since it’s not water in the package but locked inside the “popcorn?” Who knows? SO, I guess I’m calling 4T 30-40g of RS, unless Tim has something I might have missed.
“So call 4TBS 30-40g, don’t measure your TBS closely, and you are good to go”
Ha, I just wrote the same thing, before seeing that.
“I’ve put a tablespoon into a glass of cold water and gel settled on the bottom.”
Yea, if by ‘gel’ you mean a sludge. Yes, it settles quickly. So one way to gain confidence might be to see what a regular known flour does. I’m betting it floats.
@DuckDodgers
Thanks, didn’t realize that was a PS to RS conversion. Is there a reference for the 80% figure?
Sorry, didn’t see Tater’s response.
@Tater or anyone —
Have any clear patterns emerged regarding dose effects? Ie, what happens when jumping from 1tbsp to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4?
I don’t doubt 4 will give you an effect. But I’m wondering what the minimum effective dose is. Seems like some people see results at even 1tbsp, no?
I know it’s months later…but at 4 Tbs my intermittent diarrhea would not stop, maybe w more time it would have. I went to 6 Tbs and it stopped. After awhile dropped back to 4 and months later it has not returned!
“Seems like some people see results at even 1tbsp, no?”
Yes, and my wife just began a week or so ago at 2T in water or a bit of milk/kefir 50/50 (tip: mix the RS in milk first, which is easy, then add the kefir, stir, and it’s a nice tasty drink, not sludge—I actually love the slightly gritty texture and slight flavor imparted).
…Anyway, I did her drink two nights in a row, she had comatose sleep. I didn’t the third night. Not such great sleep. She asked, how come you didn’t bla bla bla. You have to make it yourself.
So she did. Slept bomb. So now she does it every night.
I’m gonna give this a shot, with a slightly different aim, I think, than most who’ve taken the moderately gritty plunge: Increased distance running performance. There is, first of all, the matter of better sleep. The cascade of beneficial effects from that alone would be significant, probably enough to justify the cost. But if the lowered fasting BG seen in many suggests a heightened fat burning adaptation, then perhaps that extends beyond the resting-state. Perhaps there are some downstream glycogen sparing effects. If that’s the case, you’d basically get faster at every event one mile and longer. In the marathon and ultra world, it would be huge. Worth noting, maybe, that the Kenyans get a ton of their calories from ugali, a corn paste that they eat throughout the day, often cold…
@Alex, please report back with athletic performance results. If we can get some athletic performance data, I think that could really be take our data to another level.
@Mike, I’ve found Potato Starch in Coles (struggled with Woolies). Also check your local IGA, Asian shops, Deli’s and the like.
I live in Brisbane and often work in Canberra – in both locations I’ve found it easy to source.
Hey Gordy. I’m wondering which section of Coles you found the potato starch in?
I have been to 2 Coles stores and 3 IGAs with no luck so far.
Kerrie, I have seen it in my local Coles in the health food aisle beside the gluten free products. You can also buy it from Vitacost.com for about $4 and I think it’s about $10 shipping to Australia.
@DuckDodgers
@ Alex
Petr Attia uses something called Supestarch and reports in detail its impact on his athletic performance. See more on his pages, starting here: http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/introduction-to-superstarch-part-i
I guess this product contanins so called RS4 – result of heavy industrial processing of corn starch.
The point is though: one does not need to buy expensive brand source of RS when there is a cheaper and more natural option for RS discovered by Tim.
Some info about this supertarch thing
http://www.lifetime-weightloss.com/blog/2012/11/12/resistant-starch-a-surprising-new-helper-in-the-battle-for-h.html
Hm I took like 8 TBSPs yday to get started (spread over an evening) and didn’t notice anything, not even a larger stool. I’ll keep at it, but wondering if I got the right stuff (says it is potato starch only, with about 80g carb per 100).
Ya know Nils, I can now take 8 TBS of Bob’s PS as well and not notice anything … limited myself to 4 TBS from May – January and after I upped it to 6-8 I did have a larger stool for a while and sometimes still do but no more fartage than usual (which has dwindled to very little over the last few months).
You mention it would be difficult to get enough RS from whole food sources, but if cooled rice is 5-10g RS per 100g wouldn’t two cups of rice alone give you 25-50g?
I increased my daily supplement to 4T/day, 2 am 2 pm in milk kefir. Still skittish about eating more carbs than some berries or apples and my daily 2 oz. of bread or pasta to test my gluten sensitivity (which I’m starting to think doesn’t exist because I’ve been eating it a week now and no issues).
My hunger issues are non-existent. I can have my RS and kefir smoothie with some blueberries and be fine until 1 or 2 pm where a salad and some protein fills me up until dinner. Great sleep so far and as for dreams, good golly I’m a world traveler when I close my eyes and do all sorts of fascinating things in technicolor and hi-fi. I’ve always had somewhat lucid and colorful dreams that I recall very well the next day, but this is a new level of complexity in dreaming.
Next up: I’m making Cuban black beans and Caribbean fried rice for Friday’s dinner. Cooking both tomorrow to cool overnight, will fry the rice just at dinner to be fresh. It will be my biggest carb meal in many weeks. What usually happens when I eat a meal like that is: feel super full and bloated for about an hour, then I raid the fridge for anything fatty, salty, and sweet (all at the same time, I would cram bacon and jelly in all at once) and eat until my stomach hurt, then go have a crappy night of sleep and wake up craving pancakes and coffee like a monster.
Will RS supp + cook/cool of beans & rice make it different this time? Can I come hunt you down, Richard, if I end up face first in a pile of pancakes Saturday morning? :-)
I’ll report back, if out of control glucose hasn’t sent me into a coma.
All told, though, I feel pretty content after RS supplementation. Keto/LC was a huge first step for me but RS is like a missing piece of the puzzle. Again, I don’t have a metabolic disorder or need a keto diet as therapy (and I recognize many people do or would benefit greatly from it) but LC wasn’t having this magic effect anymore. I was getting anxious again. RS allows me to eat somewhat higher carbos and feel happy without the attendant spike/drop in BS I would get just eating bread or sweets all day. I don’t know why I’m capable of resisting those foods more easily now, but it’s just less of a fight with myself to eat lower carb than before.
Ellen~
You’re brilliant. Love your insights. It reminds me of a zookeeper feeding his wild animals. Taking PS for some (like ANYONE WHO HAS HAD A SINGLE ROUND OF ANTIBIOTICS or eats CAFO antibiotic-laced meat/dairy)… is like a zookeeper feeding EMPTY ZOO CAGES.
“I got headaches from increased RS either from food or potato starch. Taking Prescipt Assist solved that problem. Did the others who reported headaches try an SBO? Did it help? I think it would be good to gather info on that because the headache response might be more usefully viewed as diagnostic for a need for probiotics”
type 1 diabetic here (maybe the first one?), started my RS experiment yesterday. Taking about 25g of PS in the morning and 25g bedtime, raw and mixed with water. A lot of funny farting. My BS didn’t spike a bit, 71 when taken and 71 again 45 minutes later. The only effect is that I’m not hungry at all – I could spend my entire day without eating anything. I slept as bad as always. I’ll keep you informed.
Grace,
I finished the bottle of Prescript Assist and have just started a bottle of Body Biotics. My plan is to try a bottle of each of the ones you listed here and hope that the variety will add extra benefits.
url-removed/2013/09/korean-pepper-paste-burns-visceral-body.html
I think some of my cages are filled with too many fungus. Perhaps this tactic will redress the balance.
Also since hip replacement the dentist insists that I take. 2 g. Amoxicillin before each cleaning. Think I will lie next time and say I did.
I’m in the same boat with a hip replacement but I won’t skip the Amoxicillin! My dentist had a personal friend who did this and wound up with severe infection in the implant and major reconstruction.
I just wish someone would hurry up and come out with fecal transplant tablets that we can use to follow the antibiotics! For now I use probiotics to restore some of the gut flora and fauna.
@Rob said “I stopped supplementing it one weekend and on the second night without, I was up until 3 a.m. shitting over and over and over … again – not fun.”
When you feed the colon critters, they multiply. You stop feeding them, they die. Dying bacteria release endotoxin. Endotoxin is nasty, and in excess amounts causes the Herxheimer Reaction.
Probably not a good idea to supplement with RS heavily then cycle off completely.
Now having hypoglycemia with my normal insulin dose after a large meal. Shit man, is this because of PS? If it is: thanks, Richard Nikoley. Sorry for my original comments on you.
@Nils – Wow. 8TBS and not even any fartage? Man, going to 8 for me has been like going back to step one. But I find it kinda hilarious and as people have noted, they don’t clear a room. Can’t really even smell them. Anyway, have you tested BG? That’s the only sure fire way to tell, cause even with 8T at once, you should not see more than normal fluctuations over time. What brand is it?
@CW – Not sure where you’re getting that figure. I think it’s 3-5 for cooled white rice, so I think 2 cups might give you 10ish as an upper limit.
@Amy – If I were you I’d add back the carbs gently. Perhaps a cup in divided in 2 daily meals, test BG, record how you feel, ramp up as you verify all is well. You know what one of my fav breakfasts is, now? Cold pinto beans from the fridge. I don’t even bother to reheat. About a cup in a bowl, then 1-2 over easy eggs on top, eat with a spoon.
@Grace – I’m wondering if this SBO thing is so super necessary, provided one stops disinfecting everything. As you know, no soap or shampoo for me in years. Sometimes on the hands, but that’s nay cooking for others. I also question this whole obsessive hand washing thing. what’s cause/effect here? Hand washing may knock off a cold virus from someone else or other pathogen, but also any good bacteria from “getting your hands dirty” that you’d introduce to yourself by picking a piece of food out from between your teeth or something. How about people who bite their fingernails. Gotta be millions of SBOs under this nails going straight into the mouth. My point is, if we truly lived in the environment as we evolved, seems like you’d be getting an influx of critters all the time.
@Microguy – That makes perfect sense. I recall once experimenting with Betaine HCL or whatever it’s called and took a big dose on empty stomach. Within like 30 minutes it was the most memorable series of weird ass “stuff” of ever sort ever. Once it passed, felt great. Given that I hadn’t eaten anything for like 10-12 hours, really hard to tie it to anything else.
Ellen, the new prophylactic antibiotic protocol does not require antibiotics prior to appointments in hip replacement patients.
Next time print this up for your dentist: http://www.odq.qc.ca/Portals/5/fichiers_publication/politiques/ODQ_antibiotherapie_Ab.pdf
“How about people who bite their fingernails. Gotta be millions of SBOs under this nails going straight into the mouth.”
@Richard, now you have me second guessing myself. I have been a nail biter all of my life and my cuticles would look disgusting. I can only remember weaning off this “bad” habit a couple of times in my 45 years for a couple of months at a time.
Recently, after I started supplementing with PS, I have no desire or cravings for my tasty nails any longer..not dissimilar to how people are reporting loss of cravings for sugary stuff after starting on PS.
Now your comment makes me feel like I may have thrown the baby with the water ;-)
T-Nat
“When you feed the colon critters, they multiply. You stop feeding them, they die. Dying bacteria release endotoxin. Endotoxin is nasty, and in excess amounts causes the Herxheimer Reaction. ”
This brings us full circle. Many of the low carb diet book authors warn of this (Herxheimer Reaction) as a side of effect of suddenly going low carb.
@Eloy
“Now having hypoglycemia with my normal insulin dose after a large meal. Shit man, is this because of PS? If it is: thanks, Richard Nikoley. Sorry for my original comments on you.”
No doubt it is. Same thing with another T1 who was in on the experimenting early on. My mom is 10 yr T2 and she had to lower her dose, now just on oral, I believe, but keeps the gear for backup, just in case.
@gemma,
Thanks for those links. From the looks of it UCAN appears to be a glorified hi-maize starch(RS4). It is possible that UCAN is a blend of RS + some other fast digesting starch or even maltodextrine. This combination in essence should give you initial energy from the fast digesting carbs for the first 20 minutes or so and then more energy coming in from resistant starch after the 30 minute mark. What I am still not able make the connection is- how the energy release/SCFA production by the gut bugs in the colon translates into energy for the muscles.
If one were to take PS for athletic performance boost, it may only help endurance sports such as marathon running or even steady state cardio. But I cannot imagine it would benefit that much for HIIT exercises.
Exercise/athletic performance is another area where the FTA community could contribute more n=1’s/
T-Nat
@Eloy – Just when you thought you had your dosing all figured out…. :)
Since this is the Primer for Newbies…
For those having trouble finding potato starch, or having trouble discerning between starch and flour while shopping, look at the nutritional fact label on the package (assuming there is one).
Potato starch (bit.ly/1cbtfYV) is pretty much devoid of any nutrients, while potato flour (bit.ly/1kVmeLf) has some fat, protein, sodium, and a boatload of potassium, relatively speaking.
Richard and Tatertot:
Thanks for your input on the RS content per gram. I’m a cook, so I pretty much weigh all ingredients instead of using measuring spoons or cups. My tablespoon is unlikely to match your tablespoon, but a gram is always a gram!
@Microguy,
“When you feed the colon critters, they multiply. You stop feeding them, they die. Dying bacteria release endotoxin. Endotoxin is nasty, and in excess amounts causes the Herxheimer Reaction. ”
Interesting, in the past month or so since I have been on PS, there were two occasions I can remember when I had extraordinarily large dumps. BUt I can’t remember if it happened after a day or two of not taking PS. Anyway, bottom line is, one must make sure to get RS everyday either in supplement form or via diet in order not to kill the gut bugs and therefore release endotoxins.
The question is, do endotoxins resulting from bacteria die off always exit in the form of larger dumps OR could they possibly make their way into blood circulation and cause skin breakouts or other nasties?.
T-Nat
@Ellen
As someone who has experienced headaches (including a migraine) since starting potato starch, I can chime in with my n=1. I have been taking Prescript Assist the entire time, and got the headaches anyway.
I just increased last night from 1 Tbsp. + 2 tsp. to 2 Tbsp. (after doing 2 1/2 days on the previous dose) and had a headache this morning. I take it as a good sign! The good guys are growing in numbers and killing off the enemy. :) At least, that’s how I like to think of it.
I take Prescript Assist twice a day, when I take my PS. :)
Thanks, Gab. That might help. Although last time , in Sept, I asked my dentist he said he needed a letter from my orthodox saying abx not required, in other words completely covering hiss ass. The most the ortho would do is send me a form letter covering all possible events and putting it squarely upon the dentist or other practitioner to make the decision.
for dental cleaning, it said abx ONLY if significant bleeding was expected. But, even tho I have never had more than a drop of blood from cleaning, I can see my dentist saying that he can’t be sure.
So I might just lie to save myself the hassle.
“bottom line is, one must make sure to get RS everyday either in supplement form or via diet in order not to kill the gut bugs and therefore release endotoxins.”
I don’t buy that. Diarrhea is as natural as anything else so long as acute. Animals get it. People talk of “cleansing.” Well, that’s cleansing. Fasting is cleansing and therapeutic in many ways I’ve blogged about for years (Google Autophagy, cleansing on the cellular level).
Moreover, even Norm Robillard (a gut bacteria expert) has said that fasting is a great way to control SIBO.
Bottom line, feed them well, but let them die off now & then. If you’ve fed them well, the good ones survive, and perhaps the bad go extinct.
Beth,
Well if you are willing to tolerate the headaches, keep going and let us know when they stop. Or you might try once of the other SBOs on the theory that you need some flora not included in the Prescript. as Grace said to me above, without the right flora, “it is like a zookeeper feeding empty cages”
At first, when I had the headaches plus cramping, I thought it was just a result of the battle going on down there.
BUT aside from more pooping( with cramping), I was NOT seeing any of the bennies. No change inBG, sleep or mood. Plus no fartage either. I thought that part was good.
but once I got on board with the Prescript, the BG improved, sleep improved and mood did too. and I was tooting and still am but with little or no smell.
Are you farting? I have a suspicion that no fartage in The beginning might mean an empty cage.
@Richard, I kind of agree with you as it allows us to not fret too much if we miss PS while on a vacation or something. But a sure way to know what is really happening when one stops PS for a week or so is to get their stool tested after stopping PS supplementation for a while.
So, we might want to add another step to improve the “poop test project” that some family here is kick starting:
1. Test before PS supplementation
2. Test after a few months
3. Test after a break of couple of weeks
T-Nat
A super cool quote I found a while ago. I know Dr. Grace would love this:
“”We’re not just us by ourselves but a combination of us and them” – Rosamond Rhodes, philosopher
T-Nat
Ellen, I’ve been hesitant to try other probiotics because I have SIBO. Prescript Assist is supposed to be safe for people w/SIBO. I had been avoiding fermented foods and drinks for awhile as well, but now I’m starting to get a little adventurous. I picked up some Greek yogurt, and then some kefir (had them with potato starch, of course!). So far no problems! So I may give one of Grace’s other recommended forms of SBOs a try once I finish up my bottle of Prescript Assist.
The headaches haven’t been daily, thankfully. I had a few at the beginning, including the migraine, and then a random one here and there when I increased the dose, but not always. Now that I’m at the full dose of 4 Tbsp./day, I don’t expect to get many more, if any.
That’s pretty crazy that you weren’t experiencing any of the benefits before adding in SBOs. Feeding an empty cage, indeed! In addition to the Prescript Assist, I’m also doing FMT, so I’ve definitely got some good gut bugs to feed! I’ve gotten fartage from the beginning, yes, as well as the other benefits. The decreased hunger only just started today though, as I got up to the full dose. I’m imagining that the gas will start to wane as I stay at this dose for awhile. It is almost always odor free, but yesterday it was like rotten eggs! Not sure what was going on there, but I’m glad it’s back to being innocuous! :)
I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes about 3 years ago, following a bout with thyroid cancer that resulted in a total thyroidectomy. Went low-carb/gluten-free and dropped about 60 lbs, so was able to get my blood sugar back under control and reduced my synthroid dosage. Weight loss has plateaued. I have been following this discussion with great interest and plan to start dosing with potato starch. Tried kefir for the first time about 2 weeks ago and found it quite good, so am planning to mix PS with that.
I understand that one can reheat potatoes/rice/beans etc. prior to consumption once they have been cooked and cooled, but I wondered if there is a temperature limit, i.e. should they be heated only slightly or does it matter? I was wondering about their use in casseroles etc. which are usually cooked at about 350 degrees. I also was curious about whether anyone has addressed the possible RS content of commercially produced frozen potato products, like frozen hash browns and the like?
Re die off from Not feeding the bugs being the cause of sudden D,
Didn’t Maria say it takes about a week or even two for them to die?
“I have a suspicion that no fartage in The beginning might mean an empty cage.”
Me too. I’m more and more inclined that fartage (can auto-correct not fucking LEARN) is a good sign and we’re simply socially conditioned that it’s bad, and has not one thing in the world to do with good human animal gut health.
No marijuana required, but I sometimes imagine how RS could truly change the world. Imagine if farting became socially acceptable commonplace and people smiled and clapped and such. :)
That wasn’t even in a dream.
“I understand that one can reheat potatoes/rice/beans etc. prior to consumption once they have been cooked and cooled, but I wondered if there is a temperature limit, i.e. should they be heated only slightly or does it matter?”
Generally no, for a short reheat. As to longer, higher heat reheats, not sure. What I’d do is go for it, but eat plenty as either cold (I have come to love cold beans right from the fridge) or just warmed.
Richard,
One of my favorite dishes is cold kidney beans or chickpeas with chopped onions and a little olive oil. I didn’t realize I was doing myself some good. I haven’t been eating beans for awhile because I’ve been Paleo. I’m starting to realize maybe I’ve gone over the deep end. I’m rethinking it all…
I’m new to this forum and some of the acronyms you guys are using are just so much Greek to me (LT, FMC, SBO, etc). I guess I’ve been living a sheltered Paleo life for awhile. Is there a glossary anywhere?
One other thing: Isn’t parboiled rice like Uncle Ben’s or is this a cooking method.
Hi Sandra:
OK dear, ready? Now, this is originally my grandmother’s recipe for cold garbanzos & onions, but works with kidney’s too.
– 2 can’s garbanzo’s. Drain one, use juice from the other one
– 1/2 cup olive oil
-1/8 cup red wine vinegar
– 1 smal to medium onion, sliced
– 3 small to medium cloves of garlic, crushed
– Dried parsley until it looks about right
– salt & pepper to your liking (last step and when cool or cold)
Put it all in a saucepan, bring to a boil until the sauce thickens. Add more garlic or vinegar per taste.
Chill completely in the fridge before.
Every big family get together or holiday dinner had these on the table and they were one of my favorite things, growing up.
…Not sure what you’re referring to with LT or FMC (I’d need context). SBO is soil-based organisms, i.e., the probiotics you find in dirt like an ancient forager would have gotten from digging up and eating tubers and not so much like the stuff in yogurt (though some of those strains can live in the soil, too).
Fun facts (went in the book, last evening):
“A single cup of native soil contains on average 200 billion bacteria, 20 million protozoa, 100,000 meters of fungi, 100,000 nematodes, and 50,000 arthropods.”
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/212.html
@Richard
I got that number from the pdf list of foods you gave which says whole rice cooked/cooled has a minimum of 5.48g RS per 100g and your other post with the initial list of foods that says cooked/cooled rice is between 5-10g RS per 100g. So 500g rice would be a little over two cups and should yield 25-50g RS.
@Richard,
“Imagine if farting became socially acceptable commonplace and people smiled and clapped and such.”
Now, pick your title for the next reality TV show:
You think you can toot!
Dancing with the tooters.
America’s funniest tooters.
The American Tooter.
Real Tooters of Orange County
Richard, Tim and Grace would make the perfect judges :-)
T-Nat
Insulin Suppresses Endotoxin-Induced Oxidative, Nitrosative, and Inflammatory Stress in Humans
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2963505/
Q for anyone who can answer. Sorry for being slightly OT:
Could food allergies be genetic? Or are they caused by a lack of certain gutbiome? Is leaky gut always the source of food allergies?
I have read somewhere that c-section born people have more allergies because they didn’t have a chance to acquire the right bacteria by passing through the birth canal.
Anyone know the answer or point me to some literature?
Thanks in advance.
T-Nat
Richard,
I think the SBO are necessary for some of us who have had certain gut populations wiped out completely for one reason or another.
Not sure what did it for me. I am not a clean freak, eat vegs straight from the garden with minimal cleaning…often just shake a bunch of greens, or wipe a carrot with my hand. We eat our own chickens.and meat from neighbors. And I am sometimes caught with dirty fingernails. But maybe it was the high sugar consumption in my youth that caused an overgrowth of one bug that wiped out another essential one. Or the few rounds of antibiotics over these many years. Or even some GMO foods in the 80s or 90’s before I knew to avoid them. Perhaps even using oregano or tea tree oil in certain circumstances to avoid the abx
We don’t and probably never completely can live in the environment in which which evolved. Just as we need the potato starch because we don’t eat cat tails, some of us need the SBO….not all, but some.
Not sure where the herxheimer reaction comments are coming from in regards to abrupt stopping of rs supplementation. Thought we already realized that it selectively feeds bifidiobacteria which are gram positive..
Wow! A close relative is a type 2 diabetic, and, at my urging, I got him to try PS. He’s been doing 2 TBSP a day for about a week, and fasting glucose is down 10 points, and after-meal spikes have been significantly blunted. It was very difficult for him to wrap his head around it because the package says 1 TBSP = 10 g carbs, so I explained that it’s basically fiber–I really HATE that it’s called resistant starch because low carbers and diabetics freak out. I sent him a couple abstracts from the publications you’ve put out there, Richard, and he shared them with his doctor. World domination commenceth.
“whole rice ”
….
Beth,
It does sound like it is working for you, this way . And what good news than you can now eat from fermented foods with no problem.
My headaches were daily. I might have persisted without the SBO if I felt they were more random like yours.
What is FMT??
Dr Campbell Mcbride was the first person I heard to say that about C section
http://www.shop.gapsdiet.com/product.sc?productId=1&categoryId=
http://www.westonaprice.org/digestive-disorders/food-allergies
A few years back I tried the GAPS diet and the Bio kult probiotic recommended by Dr CM, which does contain SBO. I had never had overt gut problems, just vague energy, sleep, problems.and blood sugar irregularities. The only real evidence of any gut problem was that grains give me arthritic hands.
my point here is that I saw no evidence of that protocol doing anything to help me.
Perhaps if I had been taking potato starch with the Bio Kult I would have noticed improvements I was looking for. Taking the SBO without the RS is perhaps like filling the cages in the zoo and not feeding
Perhaps after enough SBO and RS I will be able to eat grains without the arthritis….not sure if I am ever gonna try, though
The above was for T He Natural
Lenny, could you explain that further please?
Bifidiobacteria is a gram positive organism meaning it lacks the outer membrane of gram negatives that contains lipopolysccharide (commonly known as endotoxin). Since we know that rs selectively feeds bifidiobacteria then abrupt stopping should not trigger an herxheimer reaction.
Thanks Lenny
That really helps!
Starting to get some fartage now, maybe my gut biome needed to adapt first!
@Maxim
“Insulin Suppresses Endotoxin-Induced Oxidative, Nitrosative, and Inflammatory Stress in Humans”
Do me a fuckin’ favor, m’kay?
Never post a study link without your own assessment. People can do that shit all day long, just looking at study titles.
Fucking lame.
Didn’t even look.
I have zero tolerance for anyone who won’t craft and argue their own views here.
Oh also, I’m Dutch so I bought Honig – Aardappelzetmeel (Potato Starch) 50 eurocent per 200g
Hi Nils, I did the same and today bought package 4 and 5. What is your experience? Kind regards, Ton.
Thank you Ellen.
Thank you Lenny. Didn’t know gram positives could not have endotoxins.
“But maybe it was the high sugar consumption in my youth that caused an overgrowth of one bug that wiped out another essential one. Or the few rounds of antibiotics over these many years.”
Could be a million things, Ellen.
Not pointing a finger at you, but over the years, I have starkly seen a difference in issues between men and women. Well, who’s more likely to go to the doctor? Who’s more likely to take any advice or prescription without question?
It would be interesting. I’d bet money that of all the antibiotics ever administered in the history of mankind, 80% plus have been administered to women.
In my experience, they seem to veritably delight in being on them.
Richard, thanks for this useful post!
I want to try PS but am too cheap to pay 12 EUR to get Bob’s mega-legit unmodified RS shipped to Germany. So I found this organic one here on Amazon (6 EUR for 750g):
http://www.amazon.de/Bauckhof-Kartoffelmehl-St%C3%A4rke-Pack-T%C3%BCte/dp/B004RG4PZY
On the package it says both potato starch and potato flour (in Germany they seem to be used interchangeably). I wanted to be sure so I emailed the manufacturer, specifically asking whether this was made from UNCOOKED potatoes. Here’s what they replied (translation by me):
“(…) Yes, potato flour and starch are the same. During the manufacturing process of the potato starch, the raw potatoes are finely ground, centrifuged, sieved and dried. During the drying process, temperatures of around 30 degrees Celsius* are reached. (…)”
I think it’s pretty cool that they replied with some details. But does this process sound legit to you guys?
Thanks!
* = 86 degrees Fahrenheit
@Lenny –
This is a bit convoluted, but Bifidobacteria doesn’t feed off RS, it likes it a lot and will give it a big bear hug when it sees it, but doesn’t eat it. Bifido will form the attachments to RS, ride it all the way to the large intestine, and then stand idly by while other bacteria break it apart and eat it. The byproducts of all that is what bifido wants.
I probably have 6 or 8 studies on this, but you can google it — look at these terms all strung togther:
resistant starch bifidobacteria keystone species cofeeders
Precede the terms with the letters NIH and you’ll get lots of studies instead of articles and blogs.
You’ll find studies like this: http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v6/n8/full/ismej20124a.html
Yes Richard, you may be on to something…who has dirtier fingernails?
So Tim, are the one who actually eat the RS gram positive?
Hey Tatertot,
I’m a bio major that’s fascinated by this stuff so feel free to convolute away! I took a look at your linked article and am not convinced it supports your conclusion about the big bear hug and not eating it. While the study seems to suggest R. bromii as a keystone species for resistant starch degradation I noticed that it in the co culture experiments they only tested for R. bromii in addition to the other cultures, meanwhile during the pure cultures bifidobacterium [adolescentis] displayed more degradation of RS2, Rs3, and harder to digest amylose (compared to amylopectin) than R. bromii. The authors of the study also make multiple mention that Bifidobacterium is most likely a keystone species as well: “considerably lower extent of RS fermentation in vitro by comparison with the three controls (Figure 5a). R. bromii relatives, as well as bifidobacteria, were again undetectable by qPCR “.
So if you’re insistent upon Bifidobacteria not feeding off RS i need additional studies because this one is actually pro-bifidobacteria degradation of RS.
In addition I think it should be noted that R. bromii is another gram positive organism and reinforces the notion that you should not experience endotoxemia in reponse to abrupt stop in RS ‘supplementation’.
I’ve been following this since the beginning and have been trying to get RS, but it is difficult because I have a very bad reaction to potatoes and potato starch.
I’ve been supplementing with Tapioca Starch, but have read here and there that it may not have much RS. Tim says it does here: http://www.pillscout.com/2013/07/29/an-introdution-to-resistant-starches/#comment-86 but then elsewhere he says he can’t find out how much RS it contains.
I’m getting some RS with Uncle Ben’s rice and soaked & fermented beans and lentils that have been frozen for a month. The problem is that I don’t really eat much or often, so the raw starch seemed like the way to go.
Does anyone know how much RS in in Tapioca Starch? It’s really all that I’ve found except corn starch or potato starch.
This info might already be available here and I may be repeating but here goes:
The Benefits of Raw Potato Starch are from the microbial fermentation metabolites , Short Chain Fatty Acids, but particularly Butyric acid. The other additional benefits of Potato starch therefore are:
1.Regulation of fluid and electrolyte uptake.
Absorption of butyric acid by the colonocytes promotes the transport of sodium chloride (salt) and water from the lumen into the bloodstream. This effect contributes towards electrolyte balance in the body.
2. Effects on proliferation and differentiation of epithelial intestinal cells.
Butyrate has a positive effect on cell growth and cell differentiation and appears to stimulate the physiological pattern of cell division, leading to normalisation of tissue growth.
The anti cancer effect of fibre may be due to Butyrate production in the colon.
3.Butyrate has anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant properties and may contribute positively towards the integrity of the intestinal mucosa.
The human colon is continually exposed to toxic substances and Butyrate may play a protective role in mucosal barrier function and the prevention of disease that may be stimulated by potential toxins and carcinogens in the colon.
4. Butyrate plays a role in reinforcing the intestinal defence barrier.
Butyrate stimulates the production of mucin by the colonocytes.
Mucin is essential for the synthesis of Mucus.
Mucus lines the lumen of the intestinal tract and provides lubrication and intestinal barrier defence against entry of harmful microbes and other material into the body.
Butyrate has an effect on intestinal epithelial permeability and regulates the colonic defence barrier by a mechanism that involves the assembly of tight junctions in the epithelial lining.
An inflamed gastrointestinal lining has increased permeability (leaky gut) and will allow entry of substances from the lumen into the blood stream of food particles that may not be fully digested (especially proteins).
Other toxins and breakdown products of microbes that are normally selectively inhibited from entry may also pass into the bloodstream and produce an inflammatory reaction because the body recognises these proteins as “foreign” antigens. The inflammatory reactions may lead to local and systemic disease processes being triggered.
It is therefore important to ensure that the lining of the gastrointestinal tract is healthy and functioning at full capacity at all times and the integrity of the Barrier function is maintained so that only selective ingredients are allowed to pass through into the bloodstream from the lumen.
5.Butyrate increases colonic circular muscle contractions and modulates colonic motility. Enhanced production of Butyric acid in the colon by nutritional manipulation may be useful in medical conditions associated with impaired intestinal motility. (e.g. Irritable bowel syndrome)
6. Boosting the immune system by inducing formation of T-Regulatory cells that secrete Interleukin 10 and Defensin Beta peptides that modulate the composition of the Gut microbiota. http://www.riken.jp/en/pr/press/2013/20131114_1/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23828891
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312834/
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/5/1/23
@Tempest
Do you have access to plantain flour? More like 50% RS by weight, but still a good source.
@Nils
http://www.honig.nl/producten/vertrouwd_mix_aardappelzetmeel.html?action=search&query=platform:Samen&matchesPerPage=5&displayPages=10&index=Producten%20-%20Offline&searchPage=8&fields=bereidingswijze%20beschrijving%20ingredienten%20title%20content%20meta&number=3&count=38
Looks legit. Via Google translate:
potato
Honig Potato starch is a natural, clear binder with a neutral taste. Potato starch is particularly suitable for the binding of e.g., gravy, soups, juices and compotes.
Stir the paste of Potato with a few tablespoons of cold water or to moisture. Use
Transfer the rest of the water / moisture to boil.
Stir the potato porridge far.
Cook for 1 minute, stirring up more gently
TYING JUS
Remove the roast from the pan.
Stir the pan frequently in the pan with the desired amount of water release.
Make a paste of potato starch and a few tablespoons of cold water.
Stir in as much of the paste to the desired thickness is achieved. The gravy
Calculation by 2.5 dl (250 ml) orange approximately 5 g Potato starch.
~~~
Seriously? Aardappelzetmeel=….potato? C’mon, Dutch. No wonder you lost the Indonesian colony after only 400 years. :)
Richard,
Unfortunately the studies show even one round of antibiotics will make extinct the commensals. Tatertot has not had antibiotics for I think 14 years… and he consumes a BUTTLOAD of dirt and soil from his palatial garden in AK (not sure about his nail-biting habits LOL).
Each person is different but not really… Michael Pollan, vegetarian/vegan apologist, probably eats even more dirt than Tatertot! Yet after one single round of antibiotic prophy before a dental appt, his gut microbiome changed RADICALLY and could not retain the old ‘good’ species’ as well as developed spikes of ‘pathogenic strains’.
http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/some-of-my-best-friends-are-germs/
Gabriella,
Thanks for those updated antibiotic dental knee and hip replacement protocols! Love to see progress!
Ellen,
Was you THR (total hip replacement) titanium or other material? I had a dental titanium implant and that was when my health went south (combined with 1-2 rounds antibiotics, plus a Tetanus vaccine (thimerosol/mercury) and VLC diet that killed my immunity/cortisol/adrenals). Did you know that Candida LOVES TO BUILD SLIMY RESERVOIRS called biofilms on titanium?? I know wtf? However I do believe that when the immunity, gut and adrenals all harmonize and build each other up, then it shouldn’t be a problem. For me control of Candida hinged on eating kraut, SBOs and good fiber (NSP and resistant starches)… I’ve also done a few rounds of antiparasitics/antimicrobials which I strongly suspect lowered the yeast counts as well as healed SIBO.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417863/
BethM,
Recently i learned that candida love to ‘steal and hijack’ our dietary magnesium. So low magnesium can predispose to headaches, migraines, muscle cramps, out of control blood glucose as well as high blood pressure. The best way to get magnesium when there is SIBO is transdermal or magnesium oil. Iherb.com sells a couple varieties. You just sprintz on skin 1-2x times a day. You can also take a bath. Ancient minerals has Magnesium bath flakes which is one of my favorite relaxation baths.
http://www.magneticclay.com/store/departments/ancient-minerals-magnesium-oil.aspx
http://www.magneticclay.com/store/Departments/Ancient-Minerals-Magnesium-Bath-Flakes.aspx
T-Nat
I love that QUOTE and I luv U!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Richard you crack me up….funny enough if you translate literally,Aardapple= earth apple.
Either way, we also sold New Amsterdam for $20 and a necklace :-)
@ Ashwin, “2. Effects on proliferation and differentiation of epithelial intestinal cells.”
SPOT ON.
Will google some more studies, VERY INTERESTING.
mARC
“I probably have 6 or 8 studies on this, but you can google it — look at these terms all strung togther:
“resistant starch bifidobacteria keystone species cofeeders”
Here, ‘let me google that for you.’ :)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=resistant+starch+bifidobacteria+keystone+species+cofeeders
Marc:
Ha, you have no idea. Spend 8 years at sea, navigating all over the western pacific, studying navigational charts with their Van this, Van that, Vans all over the fucking place. They had to name literally EVERYTHING after themselves. :)
Grace, I’m not going to look for it now, but a woman researcher at a university in England did a study about magnesium transdermal in bathwater. The blood was taken before and after the subject was immersed in a bath with a given concentration of Epsom salt. Indeed the blood magnesium level indicated excellent absorption. The old fashioned remedy was indeed correct.
However, ma’am, I’m just swallowing my second Magnesium citrate capsule for the day. :)
@ Katie: If your relative has no problems with the PS, ramp up the dose. I’m at 4 TBL twice a day now for almost two weeks. My FBG is now running 80-84 most mornings. It was in the 120’s last spring. I’ve never been below 95 in my entire life and even when a lot younger and of normal weight.
I am also losing weight, despite eating pretty substantially, especially in my stomach fat. Pants seriously loosening up. (I do not have a beer belly or fatty liver, it’s just subcutaneous type.) Also vastly improved cycling performance.
Amazing stuff. A few coins a day and no Big Pharma.
Try hitting the search button and see how worthless the results you get for that query are
Ellen,
I had a commenter just write about this ‘FEEDING EMPTY ZOO CAGES’ because she did PS for like 3-3.5 months (since august) and no dramatic changes. THEN… she added the recommended SOIL BASED PROBIOTICS
“My fingernails are clear and my cold fingers are gone. Oh, I didn’t want to tell you this just yet. But my Sjogren’s antibody (SSB-LA) turned negative last week! That’s after being on the RS/Probiotics regimen for only 3 weeks! I was on RS since August, however. Also, one of the incipient lupus antibody that I tested positive (Chromatin) turned negative this time! My ANA is positive but with very low titer (1:40). That’s the lowest I ever tested and even normal people test at that level. My rheumatologist will be confused!
If this holds up, and I’m hoping it does, I have cured an autoimmune disease. No symptoms and no antibody: that’s a 100% cure. Not just remission. Being antibody-negative is not supposed to be possible, right? Whither molecular mimicry and eternal damnation, I mean, eternal autoimmune tissue attack? You mean, that’s contolled by the microbiome, too? So much for Dr. Fassano and leaky gut(which I now realize seem to have been a foil … it happens but the underlying condition seems to be gut dysbiosis and bacteria).
Wow, I gotta try this on my aunt who also has Sjogren’s and my cousin who has Lupus. Thanks so much guys. This is not what modern medicine says is possible!”
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.jp/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_18.html?showComment=1387317470631#c7104879112965817396
Personally I’m so grateful for Richard, for synthesizing this information and tirelessly blogging on it! How can it be this easy? IT IS.
I’ve been taking 4 tbsp Bob’s PS along with Prescript-Assist, Probiotic-3 and Primal Defense for about 3 months now. I was just recently diagnosed with Sjogren’s. Hands are still cold, eyes & mouth dry, have mild reflux, parotids are a bit swollen and inflamed. The redness on my face seems to be calming down a bit. I admit I’m feeling disappointed at the moment. Cortisol levels are low and I’m definitely feeling the adrenal fatigue. I’m gluten and dairy free. I do have several large amalgam fillings. Should I move on to seeing about getting those removed?
I’m a SAHM with two very active little boys (ages 2 and 5) so this is a real challenge and I want to get better!
I’m so grateful for the incredible info available on this site. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
What’s the FOOD, Trina?
Mostly meats and vegetables. Lots of sweet potatoes, sometimes white potatoes and a little white rice. We do regularly eat lunch in restaurants but I go for salads, potatoes, veggies, meats, a little rice. I use coconut oil & olive oil at home. My lips are inflamed – rheumy isn’t sure but says it’s probably from the Sjogrens. Fermented foods seem to irritate my lips somewhat.
Well then I have to just be forthright and say I haven’t a clue. I sure hope someone else does.
I’m sorry luv.
Trina, I’m no expert and many here have WAY more knowledge than I do. But I’ve been following this RS trail since its inception and I’ve got a soft spot for mums trying to heal (having been there myself). I think it’s easy to try and find ‘the’ cure or to follow so many rabbit holes that you end up exhausting yourself looking for answers. When your children are small, physical healing is like parenting: patience and kindness are key.
My personal belief is that pregnancy takes a huge amount out of us and if our health was at all marginal, it’s a whammy. For me, it was after my second child that my health really nose-dived.
Gut healing is critical but only part of the picture. It’s all interconnected. Adrenal issues are linked to gut, to thyroid, to ovarian/hormone/cortisol status, etc etc. Anything you can do to take the pressure off and relax – and get sleep – will help all parts of the puzzle. Trying too hard can, in and of itself, be damaging. You can only push a heavy rock so fast.
One thing that helped me was to give myself a few years before expecting big results. Keep it all in mind – inflammation, detox pathways, adrenal healing, gut health – and just do your best. You could even cut down on the PS and try a more titrated approach. Do the basics – get good sleep, eat well, move around in a way you enjoy, and enjoy your time with your children – while trying to relax as much as you can.
If you have access to a good holistic doctor, you could also do some testing for mineral status (B6, zinc, potassium, selenium, iodine, etc), liver function, etc to see if specific supplementation could be helpful. And perhaps some ‘weeding’ before/alongside the gut protocol would also be wise.
Hang in there.
I appreciate your honesty. I’m going to try to increase the carbs and will look into getting the amalgams removed. I will continue with the PS and SBOs. I’m also going to check into getting the adrenal fatigue treated and hormones balanced. I’m hoping I can talk my rheumy into ordering the stool and urine tests Dr. B G recommends. Thanks again for sharing your expertise with so many.
Thanks, Lauren. I will take your advice. My situation is similar to yours. My second son was 8 months old when the health issues began. Our children are with one or the other of us 24/7 so we never take time to really have fun together or relax. We never leave them with family or sitters. I have had lots of stress in the last six years so I’m sure that has been the catalyst for my health issues. Yes, searching for answers creates much added stress. This is a wake-up call for me. In the end, I hope I will learn from the journey and emerge happier and healthier. Thanks for your kind words.
Trina, I parented the same way and understand the stress and the intensity! Wake up calls are great… as long as you can also get a bit of sleep :) Keep asking questions and take it one step at a time. My health is night and day from what it was 4 years ago. But I’ve still got niggling issues. My biggest advice: try to enjoy the life you have now, even as you’re trying to improve things.
@Ellen – Mine are pretty clean, since I have habitually cleaned under them with my front teeth as long as I can remember. Never gave a hoot about the EWWWWs whenever caught. If you can do that, you can blog and use the c-word. :)
@Tempest – Try plantain flour of FuFu? Amazon has. I have some. Causes farts and interestingly, my dogs love it in their food way more than potato starch.
@Ashwin – Thank you. A lot of that has come up in previous posts but excellent to have it here in the Primer post.
@Grace – Haven’t had a round of antibiotics since a certain sort of “urethritis” in about 1985. Philippines or Korea, can’t recall. Given the really cool results I’m getting (FBG hugely down — I was reading 130-140 sometimes) I’m guessing that my kefiring, saurekrauting, no soaping, generally dirty and disgusting ways have paid off. I always envied the ‘Unclean.” Plus, I have two dogs and they often sleep with us.
@pzo – I just started doing 8 a few days ago. 20pt drop in FBG so far. Hope to dive under 100 in a few days. I’ve also been toying with 2 TSP raw honey in the mix at night. Makes me comatose within like 15 minutes, but then I even out. Curiously, could be coincidence, but it seems I sleep deeper and shorter, like 6 hours and I’m plenty done. That kinda sucks cause I enjoy my 8ish.
Gabkad,
That’s good to know.
I KNOW~!!
I have to thank Keith (a brilliant commenter on my blog). I’d heard of microbes blooming (like algal blooms) in the gut but not really had evidence — direct or indirect.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3914583
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6432954
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4567235
Ashwin Patel,
What a succint and comprehensive summary!
However let’s not forgot that if the zoo cages are empty, then no butyrate will be produced. We need keystone species in the gut and when they’re absent or their co-feeders (which make butyrate prodigiously), then our GI will continue to be totally f*kcred. Many as you recall did an experiment and experienced megaton increases of colon produced butyrate and likely improvment of the gut-brain axis. Here is one species that I love and it leades to so much butyrate production that the authors say it rivals or even beats a buytrate-enema.
Have you heard of this SBO probiotic AOR Probiotic-3?
Clostridium butyricum, an enterobacterium, produces high
levels of short chain fatty acids that have been reported to
be important in intestinal physiology. Two studies have
been reported in rodents, to examine the effect of this
microorganism. In the first, a C. butyricum derivative was
tested in a DSS-colitis model successfully [121], while
Okamoto et al.studied the M588 strain and demonstrated
that it attenuated intestinal inflammation and suggested
that oral administration of C. butyricum may be useful
instead of butyrate enema in the treatment of UC [122].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291386/pdf/bcp0065-0453.pdf
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-AOR-Advanced-Series-Probiotic-3-Natural-Probiotic-Formula-90-Veggie-Caps/43463
@Jan
Yea, that looks good. 30c (85Fish) is way below the 140F threshold. That’s just a mild dehydration temperature.
Grace,
I know you were using air quotes for “good” species in Michael Polan’s gut, but I find it odd that he was most proud of his Prevotella species and from what I can tell, there seems to be more evidence of Prevotella causing problems (TMAO, AIDS, rheumatoid arthritis, inflammation) than helping anyone. Prevotella specialize in digesting whole grains — which Polan is a big fan of — which of course implies that Prevotella likely wouldn’t have been a Paleolithic strain.
But, yeah, I get what you mean about antibiotics being a fairly permanent disruption.
Thanks, pzo! That’s an amazing result for you. I have talked to him about ramping up dose, but he’s cautious so far. He’ll get there. :)
I’ve been doing four tablespoons of potato starch a day for 3 days now. In the last two days my nipples have become increasingly warm and sensitive. I’ve also had sex themed dreams most nights. Sleep has been deeper than normal though. My blood sugar has been feeling more stable after high carb meals.
Does anybody have ideas about what is going on hormonally?
Is it an increase in estrogen and serotonin? Has anybody experienced something similar? Did it balance out?
Grace,
Mine was titanium, so belieeve me I did take note a while ago when I read about your Titanium implant being central to your troubles.
But I think I am safe…nothing has changed for the worse for me in the last year and a half since the surgery. More like things have been improving. (( and being able to get more exercise has probably helped on that regard )Fortunately had been off VLC and on PHD for a good while before the surgery. I even took my kraut and broth to eat the one night I stayed in the hospital. Didn’t touch their food!
> Is it an increase in estrogen and serotonin? Has anybody experienced something similar?
> Did it balance out?
Definitely a serotonin uptake. I’ve been trying to ferret it out of people here. But dang these Americans are prudes! It’s always TMI.
4TBSP BRM PS = BIG LIBIDO BOOST = HORIZONTAL LAMBADA
But to answer your question: 2 TBSP RS 2 HRS B4 SLEEP = ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
what about us readers with auto immune problems
will eating rice and beans be tolerated
“Bottom line, feed them well, but let them die off now & then. If you’ve fed them well, the good ones survive, and perhaps the bad go extinct.
”
This sounds sort of like the typical a recomposition effect from IF, but this time not with muscle and fat, and it works in my experience.
Ellen,
UR SO GUUUUUUUUUD TO YOUR ZOO CREATURES ;) I’m sure they’ll thank you soon.
DuckDodgers,
Really so many things in the microbiota can be swayed bad v. good (air quotes around both words)… It really depends on the context, the person and the individuals strains and whether they’ve turned ‘pathobiont’ or stayed ‘symbiont’.
Did you see Mazmanian and Round’s Nature article about how pathobionts get switched and then unbalance the microbiota (or possibly BALANCE depending if TH1 v TH2 v TH17 skewed)? (Email if you want the PDF)
http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v9/n5/fig_tab/nri2515_F1.html
The trigger can be anything
— low-grade gut infections (microbial overgrowths, parasites, etc)
— unbalanced health and immune systems (lack of commensals — Bifido, SFB, and soil based organisms)
— our unique genetic vulnerabilities (e.g. HLA DQ2.5 for celiac; HLA B27 for alkylosing spondylitis)
— lifestyle (lack of dirt exposures, stress, diet, sedentary atrophy, lack of sleep, livestock/dairy grade antibiotics, disjointed relationship with soil and farming)
— early colonization of pathobionts (birth in hospitals, lack of breastfeeding, compromised maternal biota sources, toxic formula)
— medical and dental practices (mercury amalgams, thimerosol and Al++ vaccines, antibiotics, hyperhygiene)
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.jp/2013/12/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html
http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v9/n5/fig_tab/nri2515_F3.html
Have you heard of molecular mimicry? This is explains all autoimmune disorders and probably nearly all chronic conditions (we just haven’t ‘discovered’ all the auto-antibodies that ou trigger-happy adaptive immunity can possibly create)
So many gut flora are implicated in RA — Kleb, Prevo, etc. Prevotella does a fantastic job at harvesting energy for us from carbohydrates and fiber (NSP RS) from whole grains and tubers. The kids Burkina Faso who are super healthy (presumedly and Western disease-free) have very rich spikes in Prevotella which mirror their carb and fiber (cellulose, prebiotics) intake with their dirt/termite (probiotic). YES. They eat soil-associated TERMITE and live probiotics from the guts of termite. All insects have gut flora like us…
In Hashimoto’s and Graves, Yersinia and other species are implicated. For an autoimmune disease to occur our genetic immune markers on cells interact with undigested food (gluten/casein) and the flora that breach the gut via loose junctions and permeability. This is called molecular mimicry and cross-reactivity — our immune systems are the most elite of all animals on earth yet this is our Achilles heel, our greatest weakness and vulnerability because it relies on our carnivorous SMALL INTESTINES, the largest interface with the world (surface area as enormous as a tennis court). To be fed and for streaming of electrolytes, we need leakiness, right? That is the greatest evolutionary step that took us from the primates, which have different Zonulins. But the control of the leakiness runs humans into problems, esp when we live apart and disconnected from fertile, healthy soil ecosystems.
For Type 1 Diabetes you need
–leaky gut
–missing SFB, SBO and other commensals (newest lit)
–pathogenic enterotype and overgrowths
–gluten
For AS (alklosing spondylitis) you need, generally:
–leaky gut
–HLA B27, HLA DR1/DR4
–Proteus, Klebsiella
–gluten
For celiac disease, you need
–leaky gut
–HLA DQ2.5 or HLA DQ2/8
–gluten
For autism/ADHD/spectrum, you need
–leaky gut
–?HLA something or genotype (DR4?)
–yeast, candida, pathogenic enterotypes
–gluten, casein
For RA (rheumatoid), you need
–leaky gut
–HLA-DR4, or other HLA/genotype
–Prevotella copri, Proteus, or Klebsiella overgrowth; even Bifido is implicated
–gluten, casein
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2040685
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8835505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21114016
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/book/bk7sect1.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1723358
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/115214/pdf/render
See figure 1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3290812/pdf/AD2012-539282.pdf
Hi Grace,
What about Hashimotos? What species needs to be present/absent for that? I have hashi’s. I have leaky gut and gut disbiosis. I’ve just started Prescript assist and plantain flour until I can get potato starch.
Do I need to do a fecal transplant to get keystone species? What keystone species do I need?
Thanks,
Renee
Weighing is the only answer, none of this volumetric crap.
With bulk density of commercial potato starch in the range 0.6 to 0.8 relative to water a 15 ml *level* tablespoon will contain 9 to 12 grams of powder.
Cool, thanks Richard! Will give this a whirl and report back in a bit
Hello Jan,
Can you please give me the details of the product? which is the producer and in which german supermarket can I find it? Did you try it? Does it work?
Thanks,
Dan
Richard, you mention giving your dogs plaintain starch. I was thinking of doing this with my lab. She’s been eating raw most of her life, supplemented with veggies and some yogourt on a daily basis but her poop tends to be very hard and “granular” for lack of a better word.
How did your dogs react to the starch? Change in stools? Farts? Skin reaction of any kind? How much do you give them?
“Try plantain flour of FuFu? Amazon has. I have some. Causes farts and interestingly, my dogs love it in their food way more than potato starch.”
Oh, that is better – I looked for plantain flour before (didn’t know about the “of FuFu” part) and everything I saw was $60 or so. $3.50 sounds so much better!
Thank you!
OK, time to come clean for me – I read your website in private – to avoid ridicule from my contemporaries they already think I’m a bit off the wall for my dietary habits.
My background–I’m an MD practicing traditional medicine, 32 years. I’m 56 yrs old, fit– 5’6, 120 pounds, exercising 40 years, more recently practice HIT and HIIT and IF. Eat my own private blend of paleo and primal.
No metabolic issues to deal with.
Your RS series has been a game changer for me. Can it be that the increase energy and better mood is just placebe?? The flatus issue persists, more than a month into 2 TBSP twice daily.
So, my query – I currently take RS 2 tablespoons dissolved in cold water, midmorning and before bed, on an empty stomach. If the daytime ingested probiotics ( kefir, Greek yogurt, sauerkraut) would hitch a ride on the RS, is it better to ingest the RS at the time of the probiotic intake? Maybe you don’t know for sure, just value your opinion. Any references?
@Johnydrz – Too soon to tell much beyond both the nearly 15 yr old male rat terrier (with EPI) and the 7-yr-old bitch seem to really love it in their food. Doing anywhere from 1/2 – 1T per meal sometimes (not every), most days. I resist doing anything all the time like a robot. Her poops are always good. Him, because of the EPI is on desiccated pig pancreas powder for the enzymes, so it’s hit and miss. I’ve had moderate success with kefir, potato starch, and even a bit of her scat mixed in (Peter, Hyperlipid, UK vet advised I do that). But the plantain is showing more promise and especially in his behavior and feistiness. At almost 15, nearly blind and deaf (he’s intact) has taken to chasing Nuke around the house if he can find her in her hiding spots.
@Newbie – Welcome sir. And thank you for that vote of confidence. I do plenty of fucked up things but I like to think that the important stuff I put out here passes my sniff test, that it makes sense in a human animal evolutionary context. I think my sense is pretty good.
To your question, my “strategy” is both. In fact, I take it with plain water on an empty stomach and sometimes mix it in a bowl of cold beans (two relative extremes). I also like to mix it with a 50/50 plain kefir and raw milk mix (and I love the taste & texture). I stir gently. I’m told the critters attach, get a bus ride. I also do mega-dose now & then, 4-8 mixed in water, totally empty stomach, with the speculation being it may clean out unwelcome in the small intestine. Since it does no harm, why not try. It seems to be having an effect over last couple of weeks, den it a few times. Got the idea here:
https://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/dramatic-resistant-success.html
Paleo largely cured my lifelong GERD and got me off PPIs, but I still get heartburn with alcohol consumption and especially when said alcohol lowers my will and I eat something stupid. But guess what? Less and less since beginning that. And when I do get it, mild. 1/2 tsp of baking soda in water kicks ass right away.
References? Tim is the guy for that. I have tons in folders, but I don’t seem to have a mind for categorizing them. I categorize things by narrative and in chronological order, if that makes any sense. Tim is on a project, to I’ll email your comment to see if he has anything to add.
Doc, please keep in touch with any questions, observations, n=1 or patient results (Chris Kresser told me he’s seeing good results in his patients). You guys who look beyond the conventional wisdom have world-changing influence.
@Newbie – It’s OK to admit you like Free the Animal, but there are several support groups for those who’ve recently come out of the FTA closet you may look into.
Tons of references, but I’d rather see you find them–Google ‘Resistant Starch, bifidobacteria, attachment, adhesion’ You’ll find studies like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC93045/
As to your regimen, I think what you are doing is perfect. I doubt you really need ANY yogurt or kefir to reap the benefits of RS. So much is going on down there when you add RS to the mix–bifido and lactobacteria are all around us and on nearly everything you eat. Yogurt and kefir are for the poor saps who can’t grow their own probiotics–the ‘RS-free’ billions.
If you are starting out, kefir and yogurt w/RS is probably a good idea to speed things up, but your built-in bacteriophage network may not like it. Google ‘bacteriophage and probiotics’ and you’ll see what I mean. Hopefully, you’ll find stuff like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3145054/
Your phages want to kill any bacterial population that is rising out-of-control. Eat tons of yogurt or pop probiotic pills and you generate the phages ire. Eat RS and let the RS eaters grow out of control. Phages can have a field day keeping the RS eating Ruminoccocus bacteria in check while bifidobacteria fills in the spaces.
Here’s the kicker – probiotics bacteria doesn’t eat RS. It eats the by-products of RS fermentation by other bacteria and loves the new atmosphere they create. Google ‘resistant starch, keystone species, and cofeeders’ You’ll find a wealth of info like: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3400402/
In case you are reading this thinking I am the smartest person in the world, I’m not–most of this stuff I just gave you was born out of this blog and the dialog it generated. Dr. BG (Grace) was the one that came up with the keystone/cofeeder angle. The rest was just found through dumb-luck googling to answer questions people had.
Glad to see you think it’s a game changer–it is! Pay it forward, doc!
Thanks Richard. Been trying to find FUFU locally here (Montreal area) but haven’t found any, yet. Amazon won’t ship it to Canada. I’ll give it a try with PS. My lab will eat about anything I put in her bowl…
Used to read what Richard and Tatertot wrote with an open mind and now I’m convinced you guys have no idea what you’re talking about. You keep saying bifidobacteria is not a keystone species and link studies that do not bolster that line of reasoning. http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v6/n8/fig_tab/ismej20124f1.html#figure-title If anything, bifidobacteria is better than the R. bromii you keep saying is a keystone species at degrading amylose and R2,R3 resistant starches. I think you guys should learn to actually read studies before pawning off your conclusions off into clever little metaphors like bear hugging and such
@lenny
What exactly are you trying to say?
I’m trying to say they have no idea how to read scientific studies. The main study that tatertot keeps linking shows is counter indicating his statements. For example one of the main finding “supporting” his keystone species of R. bromii is here : http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v6/n8/fig_tab/ismej20124f3.html#figure-title and he doesn’t even account for the fact that the media (including the R3 resistant starch used) for boiled prior to inoculation with all those microbes–something heavily emphasized by Richard as reducing the overall resistant starch content (boiling that is). I used to come to blogs like this because I thought people like this were reliable enough not to have to fact check every single thing. Clearly I was wrong.
@Richard
Aardappel = potato (it literally means; earth apple, like in the word AARDvark; an earth burrowing critter)
zetmeel = starch (literally: flour that ‘settles’, i.e., does not float).
That said, I’ve noticed more gas and I’m definitely going to keep trying. Maybe it’ll finally cure my cold hands.
Thanks for all the work you’re doing.
It’ll be my pleasure to keep you posted, both on the n=1 front , as well as on whatever results I obtain from patients. The uptake on these “revolutionary” concepts by the general public is slim, so perseverance and repetition are my arsenal. I do believe that my patients trust me to have done the research and considered the consequences, but it is still difficult for them to internalize these new concepts. I’ve given the name of your site to help them along!
My hat’s off to you for creating this site, for sharing and guiding.
I am happy to follow the cookie path – I feel like a total geek sometimes when the afternoon starts with “I swear, just a bit of surfing”, and the links keep me going til dinnertime! Just a an aside, I do the fermented dairy and veggies for the K2 as much as the bugs, although I believe that once my microbiota get going, they’ll be their own manufacturing plant.
Thanks for the summary information , and the stepping stones.
@lenny
Richard’s always been clear that everyone should think for them damn selves. Don’t be a lemming. If you can read the studies better and make conclusions do so. Don’t rely on others to think for you.
newbie,
Great questions you have! Do you use any functional medicine in your practice?
I’m a converted clinical pharmacist who practices functional medicine with an evolutionary slant. I find that using the GDX GI stool function test and ONE (Optimal Nutri Eval) to assess and track a patients gut dysbiosis, neurotransmitters, environmental toxins and nutritional status are key to finding complete recovery for all health and chronic conditions.
Here are my results and the journey to completing fixing SIFO/SIBO (small bowel fungal/bacterial overgrowth)– soil based probiotics (strains like Clostridium butyricum, Bacillus licheniformis, Mark Sisson’s Primal Flora, etc), RS-enriched tubers and whole grains, fruits/veggies (NSP fiber), exercise, removing mercury/titanium hardware, and a couple of rounds of botanical anti-microbials/anti-parasitics…
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.jp/2013/09/my-n1-pre-and-post-microbiome-digestion.html
These two articles show there is a synergism between RS + NSP (non-starch polysaccharides/fiber). You need preferable both and a decent gut flora to begin with. Each performs to lower inflammation and reduce colon CA (proxy for: improving intestinal permeability and fermented products SFCA). Microbiome studies show that even one single round of antibiotics renders permanent irrevocable changes to the gut ecosystem, keystone/co-feeders! As the first born of a physician, I’ve had only 20-30 courses of antibiotics (including doxycyline for several months for acne). As an MD you must be aware of the collateral effects of abx? I didn’t! I had several courses for mastitis and so exposed my children as well as babies when I was breastfeeding (not excl the many rounds for one who had ear infections).
Off first link authors say (and I hate wheat bran) “Without wheat bran [NSP], resistant starch was rapidly fermented in the caecum and proximal colon. ”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1727739/
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/6/1020.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12738184
Grace: Wheat bran added to the daily dose of RS may actually have a very good purpose; according to the study that shows that the combination of the two moves the RS down to lower in the colon for fermentation – this low part of the colon is where we WANT fermentation to take place (think bifidobacteria and lactobacilli, they belong in the colon, not in the upper, small intestine.).
Those of us with small instestine bacterial overgrowth problems, or candida-like symptoms from some type of overgrowth in the upper, small intestine, are hesitant to use RS orally, for fear it will feed the wrong microbes in the upper gut and never make it to the lower gut. I read with cheer the study that showed that mixing insoluble fiber (wheat bran) with the RS will cause the bolus to move lower before being chewed up much by microbes.
And to FreeTheAnimal: wheat bran isn’t just “sticks and twigs” to some of us. It is the only thing that has kept me regular for years – I’m a tough case, soluble fiber doesn’t work for me (RS aside), drinking “more water” doesn’t work for me, various special diets including paleo didn’t work for me, none of the usual regularity recommendations work for me– except insoluble fiber, such as wheat bran, which works for me no matter what kind of other special diet I’m on, paleo or otherwise.
Your very short, strong opinion on wheat bran may be right for your gut, not mine.
That said, your site has done a wonderful service of showing me what RS is. Never heard of it until now, and will go slowly experiment with it, thank you.
The study I referred to is here:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1727739
Mary – I’ll try to make sure Grace sees this.
You are correct that we are a bit short-sighted. Our advice has mainly been for those who are in pretty good shape looking to tweak something easily. Lots of people have more pressing issues and need to be dealt with differently. Grace has been giving great advice to folks like you, so I’m glad it’s working. This whole RS thing is so new that there will surely be many changes before it’s over. Our main goal here was to advertise that RS is a ‘real thing’ and that it can be found in therapeutic doses in some raw starches and real foods.
Hopefully one day we all get on the same page, but for now it’s just a lot of trial and error, and ‘following your gut.’
Different Mary here (I was the one with the list of questions). I’ve altered my name slightly to avoid confusion. Tater, you’ve recommended psyllium for the same reason Mary takes the wheat bran, correct? Other bloggers with a paleo bent say that psyllium shreds your insides (doesn’t that sound delightful?). How often do you take it? Are there any adverse effects in those with generally healthy gut health?
Can one become dependent on it?
I think it’s best to just keep mixing things up. I have a 12oz bottle of psyllium husk that is over 6 months old and still half full. If I think about it, I’ll mix some (1tsp or less) in with my potato starch every now and then.
Yes, same exact reason as the wheat bran…
But really, I think eating the way we have been discussing–beans, potatoes, rice every day, gives you all the fiber you need to get the RS to where it needs to go. In the studies, they were feeding JUST RS, not RS rich foods. If you are eating good fibrous veggies and fruit, there is no need to obsess.
People with really messed up guts may want to take a stricter approach for a while and also include some probiotics as well.
Hey Mary,
Anyone who has been on a restricted low fiber diet (paleo, ketotic, low fiber SAD), IMHO, should take RS combined with other fibers + SBO probiotic.
Ellen above is correct. I appreciate your input so much.
Thank you for your commenting above Mary and being so brilliant to acknowledge the different roles that various fibers have on our human physiology.
Have you seen this review?
http://www.metamucil.com/pdf/All%20Fibers%20Are%20Not%20Created%20Equal.pdf
I encourage a suite of different fibers because each does something a little different. As much as I love RS, like a human cog, it doesn’t work optimally alone. It goes FURTHER (distally) and STRONGER (exponential butyrate production) and BETTER (systemic health improvements) by acting synergistically with other fiber components — viscous fiber, soluble, insoluble.
Where RS does well is in studies where there is 2.5 – 5% cellulose. This is about several tablespoons of psyllium! Where is the medical literature that supports psyllium as ‘abrasive’? I’ve not come across it? Psyllium is actually mostly SOLUBLE FIBER and thus coats and provides extra mucusy support in the gut. If one does not drink sufficient fluids however it is not only obstructive, then it may lead to dangerous intestinal ischemia.
RS is wonderful but it doesn’t do the below in isolation or alone (unlike other fibers) in studies:
bulk up stools
dilute carcinogens
induce weight loss
lower blood pressure
carry fermentation distally to the rectum
This is how we co-evolved, makes sense no?
Soil based probiotics are superior to normal probiotics mainly because ingestion mimics how ancient hominids thrived and optimized by outsourcing digestion, immune defenses, heat and energy production to the most abundant animals on earth, the microbes.
I hear you — did you know that nearly chronic disease is the same as you and I have suffered? Leaky gut and SIBO? Breath taking candida… CFS and brain fog.
For your condition, you should consider with your practitioner the following as lines of thoughts:
— identifying the targets of pathogenic overgrowth (parasites, protozoa, yeasts, bacteria)
— targeted weeding of these organisms
— setting up a hospitable small intestine with SBO probiotics and healthy dirt exposures (have you ever gardened? consider joining a CSA and start weeding or harvesting to touch and get dirt exposures)
— etc in the 7-steps/RS diet at FTA
— consider switching from PS to green banana flour as your source of RS which has more evidence for healing permeability and damaging infectious etiologies [hat tip: Charles and John — FTA readers — thx! UR ROCKSTARS]
Good luck and I look forward to hearing about your progress soon!
g
It’s not realistic to read every piece of research for yourself. Sometimes you have to rely on the opinions of others.
@Lenny
I agree, but don’t elevate people to the status of knowing everything. If you read something that contradicts, then say explain, add, and adjust. What does it serve to be all or nothing with regards to Richard and Tater.
There is a great book on the wisdom of crowds and how many many things can be figured out quickly through this wisdom versus idealogical gurus.
“and the links keep me going til dinnertime!”
Welcome to the curious life, doc. Pretty much, I only turn on the TV after 9 or 10 (except football of course!!!), and then to truly spend time taking in passively for an hour or two, and in that context, I actually love TV again.
@Richard
As this is a primer for newbies, and you will likely have hordes of LC’ers heading this way, maybe add in a couple of points on symptom diagnosis.
Eg headache / no farting suggests deficit of colon bugs, consider supplementing with fermented foods, SBO etc.
?? suggests SIBO/SIFO, try ??
Else chaos may ensue.
JGibson, you might be right. I’ve been getting mega fartage right after using DaVinci syrup and Walden Farms jelly, which are all made with sucralose. I didn’t connect the dots until you mentioned. My gas was becoming highly irregular and I was wondering what on earth was making me so flatulent.
@Lenny
My email is on the about page. PayPal me for as much of my exclusive time as you like. It’s $250 per hour.
Otherwise, I guess you got what you paid for.
I’m gonna cut out all Splenda and Sucralose products and see if that improves my internal gas brouhaha. I thought I had solved it but it came back with a vengeance coincidental with Splenda consumption.
Wow, been a while since I looked at these comments.
I know this was months ago, but did you have any improvement from dropping sucralose? I made that assumption based on other stuff I read, and the results were pretty consistent for me the first couple months. I remember a mention about bodybuilders giving this a shot, and my advice to them would be drop any supplements containing sucralose (all of them?) or you will never. stop. farting.
Sharyn,
UR A MODERN LEAKY GUT WET DREAM AND B R I L L I A N T ;)
Glad you’re here to kick *ss…
g
Sharyn,
Do u see the chaos like I do? Love what you said:
“Eg headache / no farting suggests deficit of colon bugs, consider supplementing with fermented foods, SBO etc.
?? suggests SIBO/SIFO, try ??
Else chaos may ensue.”
More primer for the NEWBIE BEWBIES… ;) lol
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3426708/pdf/zam6656.pdf
GERM-FREE rodents are like humans with empty zoo cages……….and RS made no diff for colonic mucosal structure, host gene expression, metabolite production, as lean muscle gains as non-germ-free rodents.
Changes in colonic mucosal morphology. Morphological changes in the colonic mucosal architecture were observed in conventional rats fed RS compared to rats fed BD (Table 5). Feeding RS to conventional rats resulted in a significant increase in colonic crypt length (BD 207.6 5.1 [standard error of the mean {SEM}] mm; RS228.06.6 mm) and goblet cell frequency per crypt (BD 21.1 0.6 [SEM] cells; RS 24.9 1.4 cells) compared to BD-fed conventional rats. In contrast, feeding RS to germ-free rats did not alter the colonic mucosal structure compared to germ-free rats fed BD.
“In contrast, feeding RS to germ-free rats did not affect host gene expression. Therefore, the microbiota, not RS alone, was responsible for the altered mucosal transcriptomes in the large bowel observed between dietary groups.”
“Metabolite profiles from germ-free rats were clustered separately from profiles from conventional rats, but they showed greater similarity to profiles from BD-fed conventional rats than to those fed RS. However, dietary change in germ-free rats did not result in a clear separation according to diet, unlike that seen in conventional rats.”
“The comparative results from conventional and germ-free rats showed that molecular communication between the microbiota and/or their products and the bowel mucosa of the host occurs; feeding RS to germ-free rats did not elicit significant changes in colon gene expression or phenotype.
Broad changes in serum metabolite profiles were also observed in conventional rats fed RS but were not seen in RS-fed germ-free rats…These results provide evidence that changes in the microbiota composition have consequences for the host beyond the gastrointestinal tract.”
“The importance of the microbiota to host metabolism was also illustrated by the observation that germ-free rats ate more food but gained less [LEAN MUSCLE/SARCOPENIA] weight than conventional rats fed the same diets. The greater weight gain of conventional relative to germ-free rats has been explained previously in terms of energy harvest by the large-bowel microbiota.”
@ Grace,
My practice is still a conventional medical practice, now where near integrative medicine. My patients are seeing that side of my medical evolution, but I don’t think a lot of them buy into it. I am trying to explain more about hormonal influences on body fatness( trying to get away from the calories in/calories out mentality), diabetes and hypertension; the concepts of SIBO and dysbiosis(agreed way too much antibiotics used), hypochlorhydria with H2 blockers given out like candy, the list goes on. Newer concepts for me, totally foreign for them. Your patients are likely coming to you with a knowledge base and a leaning towards functional medicine.
Third link you sent was distressing, but it’s only one study – to think that RSs may in fact increase carcinogen bioavailability! No way I’m eating any grains, so I’ll start looking for other NSPs – thinking about lactulose currently, but haven’t read enough.
Who are germ-free zookeepers feeding empty cages….?
I dunno but if you are not seeing RS results in 2-4 wks, then you might be one…
RS clinical benefits:
banging BGs
improved HgbA1c < 5.0%
lower body fat
higher muscle ratios (less sarcopenia, u pussy)
better mood/dreams/sleep
no cravings (alcoholism, food nighttime binge eating, crack spells)
bigger testicles/balls/ovaries
fecundity, fertility
better skin, hair
improved adrenals, endurance, core body temps
no longer frigid digits or extremeties and cold intolerances
thyroid Free T3 higher and reverse T3 lower (because this is what VLC ketosis F*KCS UP OVER TIME B/C YES I LIVED IT)
better gut/digestion/immunity
normalized WBC white cell counts
less colds and infections
amelioration of the dawn phenom and rebound peripheral insulin resistance
less pathogenic overgrowth and fungal infections (gut/nails/skin)
What did I miss Duckdodgers?
Who might be 'germ-free' and killed off the commensal symbiont organisms???
(a) anyone has taken EVEN ONE SINGLE antibiotic course, much less MONTHS of acne antibiotics
(b) anyone not eating organic soil based foods on routine basis (no beer doesn't count!)
(c) long standing VLC, ketotic, LC diet or IFers or cyclic ketogenesis
(d) still have cold hands/feet/penis/ovaries
newbie,
That’s nice you’re swaying out of conventional market medicine……!
Thanks for bringing up the use of Prilosec, PPIs and H2Blockers (Zantac, Tagamet, etc). Studies show each of these INSTANTLY cause 100% SIBO in patients (and rarely esophageal adenocarcinoma).
UGH lactulose? are you cirrhotic?
Yes — the third link makes one think, eh? For one rodents are not adapted like hominids for protein digestion as well. We have more of the protein-digesting co-feeders also (unless one has starved these commensals to extinction or taken antibiotics).
I think the KEY is to not be germ-free or commensal-free when you’re taking RS/potato starch. Biting nails is not enuf. Licking your dog’s ass, eh, maybe.
Google “AFMCP” to take FM classes. I know most of the faculty — recently they taught here in China.
newbie,
In Frassetto’s seminal UCSF paleo study, prehypertension was normalized in only 7-10 days.
I suspect 2 things were going on. Carb intake total 220-250 grams/day but net carbs EH 125-150 g/day. Higher fiber both NSP (veggies, fruit) and RS (carrot fiber,juice, yams). The RS could’ve been higher to match our ancestral optimums (just like sunlight or vitamin D consumption).
(1) Gluten free and dairy free (and soy and corn fre + FIBER — no more gut disrupting triggers and reduction in dysbiosis (presuming these weren’t totally germ-free people – -just SAD high carbs so they havent starved their commensals the way VLC/ketotic Atkin diets do)
(2) Improved gut flora normalized ACE expression and gut-originating inflammation
“Based on analysis of the human gene disease network, the human angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) has been
tied to myocardial infarction, Alzheimer’s, diabetes mellitus, and sarcoidosis.[16] However, Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria – microbes common in dairy products and considered to be innocuous – actually downregulate
expression of ACE.[17] By altering the expression of ACE, such bacteria will also affect the progression of these inflammatory diseases in ways not yet fully understood.”
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal_2013_CurrentOpinion-Preprint.pdf
I’m sold on RS supplementation with potato starch but I wonder if it might be best to get prebiotics from a variety of sources besides RS. There’s a ton of research on inulin or oligosaccharides as well as pectin in promoting good gut flora growth so in addition to the PS and my home fermented foods, I try to eat a couple ounces of raw onion and eat an apple a day, along with a little inulin/FOS bulk supplement I bought. Is this a good idea or simply redundant? Richard, Tater anyone?
Absolutely. Nothing in RS advocacy should be meant to suggest that they replace other forms. It’s just that RS is someone unique in itself, and also a bit more difficult to get from food because of what’s available and our eating habits. Anyone chow down on cattail pollen lately (high in RS). However, the others are pretty easy to get from a varied diet so probably not a great need to focus on it. I have a can of FOS and now & then i’ll take a scoop.
Grace, normalized white blood cell counts? That’s mucho interesting. I mean I’ve heard of WBCs falling and I examined closely and that really is the case. You see the same thing in starvation experiments, which are ipso facto ketogenic.
What’s funny is there are talks about immunodeficiency diseases afflilcting low-carbers. Some of these guys are contracting common variable immunodeficiency and selective immune deficiency where one of the igg subclasses or immunoglobulins are deficient. I know because I went to an immunologist in August and had her test me and lo and behold, I’m deficient in Immunoglobulin M, I mean it’s not even close to the low reference range. I noticed my nose was constantly running four seasons.
That talk is coming from long-term VLCers who encounter immune problems, don’t respond to flu shots, and even with Vit D3 supplementing, they have sinusitis and upper respiratory infection just about all the time in winter months. You combine that with low complements (I’m also kind of low on C3 and C4), you truly are screwed. Throw in ANA positivity, low WBCs, and automatically low lymphs and neuts when your WBCs fall below 3.0s, and you’ve compromised immunity big time.
How many ketogenic or low carbers are testing their IGG subclasses or immunoglobulins? I personally know that Dr. Bernstein is on a monthly megadose of immunogloblulins because he has CVID. Perhaps that’s keeping him alive. He estimates that about 1/3 of his patients also have the condition and he asks them to get immunoglobulin injections, saying, it’s the cuse of being diabetic. He insists that’s comorbid with diabetes but we know better. His two sons whom he put on a VLC diet are not diabetic but they both have Raynaud’s. How do you explain that?
The sheer magnitude of the downside risk of a VLC/ketogenic diet is a lot bigger than we thought. We just haven’t connected the dots yet on what it does. And those who’re on it will never know because they can’t get tested unless they know about these things. This damn diet has a hole bigger than the Grand Canyon!
@ Grace
No, very healthy in fact .
Link to Lactulose – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705355/
7 days in. Flatulence largely gone. Now experiencing not exactly constipation, but zero need to make BM. I’m historically regular as clockwork. 2days, no joy. It’s not painful, just odd. I’m 4 months in on Jaminet PHD. Anyone else experience this? I’m at 3 T.
Hmm Geoff. That sounds opposite of what we typically hear. I’d say let’s see what happens after a few days. If still a prob, I’d suggest going off PS for 3 days.
My approach to PS for most of the time has been intermittency. Different dose, different times, with just water, with food, a day, two or three without.
@Geoff,
I have experienced similar issues and still do occasionally. But I usually catch up..meaning I get an extra large once in a while. I have always been regular myself.
I am not sure what to make of this effect but don’t think of it as an issue anymore considering all the other benefits I am seeing.
T-Nat
@Grace,
Interesting. Thanks. Still, I’m sure Prevotella can be [“]wonderful[“] in certain ecosystems. But, the little I’ve read about them suggests that they are mostly whole grain feeders — and not so hungry for RS — and I was just pointing out that they are therefore probably a newcomer to the human gut. Of course, I’m sure we have a lot of newcomers these days :)
@Geoff,
I’ve heard that some freshly made beet juice and/or carrot juice first thing in the morning, upon waking, is often recommended for GAPS patients when they get stopped up. (Needs to be fresh apparently).
@ Ellen
FMT is Fecal Microbiota Transplant. It is what it sounds like. Check out ThePowerofPoop.com for more info. Really ground breaking stuff.
@ Dr. BG/Grace
What are some good sources of NSP? I’m currently taking psyllium husk powder. I did some Googling around and came across this info:
“Anaerobic fermentation of the soluble non-starch polysaccharides from psyllium seed results in the production of the short-chain fatty acids acetate, propionate and butyrate in the intestines. Psyllium husk contains only the epidermis of the seed, while the actual seed has a higher amount of fermentable fiber. Because of this fiber content, psyllium seed degrades more slowly than pectin and produces fairly large amounts of butyrate and acetate.” From http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/2/155.pdf.
I went back and forth between the husk and the seed before going w/the husk. I’ve run across the above info. in a few different places, stating that there’s more fermentable fiber in the seed than the husk. Might it be a good idea to take both?
Speaking of conflicting information, now Tater Tim’s comment has got me second guessing my supplementing with with probiotics (SBOs, yogurt, kefir, in addition to the FMT). I don’t want to be feeding empty cages though! I know my beneficial bacteria is low, so it just seems like more would be better right now. Thankfully I am experiencing pretty much all of the benefits that Dr. BG mentioned (thanks for that great list!). And I’m really digging my nightly smoothies of kefir, Greek yogurt, blueberries, honey potato starch and psyllium husk powder. :)
Beth, I just started the PS a few days ago and have experienced headaches each day. Have yours gone away? It seems so counter-intuitive to continue taking something that makes you feel bad.
Someone reported taking Prescript Assist, a probiotic, and fixing the headaches.
I’m not Beth, but I had headaches for a couple of days and then they went away. Now the gas, it has been on again, off again and then VA-VOOM! on again with a vengeance. Today is the start of week 4, we’ll see what that brings.
Just my own n=1, but last time I had a gas attack, went 3 days with zero PS, and only minimal food sources. Since resumption, zilch (i.e., just normal occasional), not even with PS combined with a plate of beans.
I’m wondering if the best approach might turn out to be more of a feast & famine thing. High, bolus doses for a fews days, none for a few days, etc.
Ha! Well, I’m only taking a tablespoon a day (mixed in a glass of water) usually on an empty stomach. Going to proceed with caution. ;-)
Mary I suggest some major distance between PS and lentils, right Richard?
Also, for headaches you might try magnesiums (not magnesium oxide which is crap. Look for citrate). In my pre-paleo migraine days 2 capsules would stop them on a dime.
Mary,
I had that problem and taking Prescript Assist solved it a few days.
Sorry, I’m not understanding your suggestion. Are you saying not to eat lentils when taking potato starch? Why? Does this exacerbate headache or gas? Because, interestingly, I ate lentils a couple hours before today’s dose of PS. Thank, Ellen and Richard for the recommendation of prescript assist. I have spent some change on probiotics in the past and never noticed any improvements. Can’t really justify spending $50 a month on another supplement (already taking the fermented cod liver oil and butter oil that so many bloggers find so magical).
Mary,
I come from a line of champion farters. In my book, there is a hierarchy of farts ranging from Just Plain Farts on one end of the spectrum to Mind Bending Farts on the other. Mind Bending Farts score on the extreme ends of noise, volume and smell. The combination of lentils and PS resulted in Mind Bending Farts.
I hope this wasn’t too graphic ;=)
Hmm. Well tomorrow’s a snow day. It’s a perfect opportunity to experiment. I’m not sure I’ve ever had mind-bending gas…
Mary,
There is no way I can know that Prescript assist would stop your headache response to RS as it stopped mine. But understand you do not need to keep taking it for very long. If those bacteria are the ones you need, One bottle should be more than enough. That is the beauty of this whole deal with resistant starch. If you feed those little bugs they will make a home in your gut, be fruitful and multiply. So no need to keep buying more of them for the rest of your life.
Ellen, where do you buy it? They sell it on Amazon (free two-day shipping), but I wonder if it’s wiser to buy something like a probiotic directly from the manufacturer? Aside from relieving PS headaches, what did this product do for you? Has it changed your bowel habits for example? Have you experienced any undesirable effects?
Mary,
Unlike some of the older ones, this, and apparently all the other SBO probiotics such as the one that Grace/drBG has been writing about:
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-AOR-Advanced-Series-Probiotic-3-Natural-Probiotic-Formula-90-Veggie-Caps/43463
Are room temperature stable
so I think you are safe getting it from Amazon. I bought mine on Chris Kresser’s website cause that is where I first learned about it, and Chris has helped me a good deal.
When I tried the RS either from cooked and cooled food or PS I got headaches and too many bowel movements, like 6 a day, with mild cramping. After less than a week of Prescript Assist I tried the RS again and did not get headaches, did not get cramping and had one to three bowel movements a day that are completely comfortable and would win high praise from dr. Bristol. I finished the bottle, just because I had it. I should have just kept it because now my husband is starting the PS and having some issues, which indicates that the right probiotic might help him too. I bought a new bottle and it is dated to be good till Sept of 20017
No negative effects that I have noticed. Am sleeping better, fasting blood sugar down 10 to 15 points, mood seems better.
In the past I have tried other probiotics for various reasons and never noticed any effect whatsoever.
Ha ha! Well they won’t last quite that long! Only 4 1/2 years.
Thanks for the info, Ellen!
@Grace,
I’m a layman, so I appreciate everything you’ve taught me. But, my understanding of Prevotella mostly being a grain-eating species came from this:
http://humanfoodproject.com/from-meat-to-microbes-to-main-street-is-it-time-to-trade-in-your-george-foreman-grill/
Leach goes on to explain how he happens to eat a lot of Resistant Starch and other fiber, though barely any grains, and he has very little Prevotella. Polan is a big fan of whole grains, so it makes sense that he had more Prevotella.
Anyway, I’m just pointing out that Prevotella probably wasn’t a big occupier of Paleolithic guts. Seems like a pretty modern addition to our microbiota and it’s unclear if it was really a “good” addition to Polan’s American gut — though I’m sure it was better than the pathogenic bacteria that moved in after the antibiotics.
A good friend’s mother is a Peace Coros volunteer in Burkina Fasso. She commented that the millet is piled on the ground at the market for sale. This ensures a nice dose of soil based bugs, I’m sure.
@Geoff, @The Natural
I too have noticed a change in regularity. Prior to RSing, my BMs were like clockwork, now they are much more infrequent sometimes going 1 or 2 days between action. I was sort of guessing that it might be related to what I reckon is less intake of food. Since the RS makes me feel full, I’ve been eating a lot less. No signs of discomfort (other than extreme fartage).
@BethM,
How do you know your beneficial bacteria is low? Did you get your poop tested?
Did I read you correctly…are you doing the FMT?
A poop test would be a great start IMO so you are not playing the guessing game anymore and know exactly what to seed, what to feed and what to weed.
That’ s what I am going to do anyway and I am going with GI FX and ONE. Dr. Grace is helping me with these tests. I am hoping to ship my poop out in the next couple or three weeks. Very excited about it.
T-Nat
A question regarding “unmodiefied”
I live in Austria and we have a lot of suppliers for PS here, but when I asked them if it is unmodiefied, they had no idea what I meant….
Can you give me examples what happens when PS is modiefied? Is it a physical process? If so which one?
I would like to make sure that the local sourced PS is unmodiefied as well…. (Bob’S Red Mill PS is prohibitively expensive, even when shipped from Germany….)
TIA Rob
@Rob, from what I understand about raw starch physical properties it is insoluble in cold water, following method might be suitable to check if you have real thing. Mix it with water (best in clear glass) and then stir, after 5 or so minutes water will become almost transparent while all the starch end up in the bottom building up so called newtonian fluid. Poke it with the spoon and try to move it in various directions – it is becomes “resistant” lol.
Also in contact with iodine amylose turns dark blue, while amylopectin red-purple color. I am not sure how it will work, because RPS has both, though mostly amylopectin (~80%). Or if it will be any different in case of potato flour.
Please feel free to correct me. In my country there is simply no potato flour or premodified potato starch, just raw one and a lot of it.
@Maxim
thanks for your comment. Here in Austria and Germany PS is also called Potato flour, and these two names are interchangeable (there’s another product which will result in mashed potato, which is clearly something else….)
I was more interested in the (technical) term “unmodified”, I thought it meant a special physical process when the PS is made in the mills, but I reckon that “ummodified” means “non-GMO PS”. So no genetically modiefied potatoes used for the PS. Maybe I will contact Bob’s Red Mill company to get the mess cleared up…
Does this make sense? :)
Cheers from VIE
Rob
Not sure if GMO potatoes count as ‘modified’ for food-grade potato starch, supposedly Bob’s is all non-GMO and they will be labeling it soon as such. If it’s sold as a food-item, it’s most likely not modifed, but could still be pre-gelatinized–that’s no good either.
When we say ‘modified,’ we’re talking about chemically or heat treated to make it useful to some industry, like laundry starch.
Starch has many non-food uses; it’s used in glue, laundry spray, automotive and drilling industries, and many other obscure processing methods. Each one of these uses requires specially modified starch. If you suspect it is “modified” in any way—don’t use it. A quick call to the manufacturer may be needed to be sure, but generally, if it’s sold for food use, it’s “unmodified.” Below is a list of terms used when modifying potato starch, if you see any of these terms—don’t use it:
dextrin (E1400), roasted starch with hydrochloric acid
alkaline-modified starch (E1402) with sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide
bleached starch (E1403) with hydrogen peroxide
oxidized starch (E1404) with sodium hypochlorite, breaking down viscosity
enzyme-treated starch (INS: 1405), maltodextrin, cyclodextrin
monostarch phosphate (E1410) with phosphorous acid or the salts sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, or sodium triphosphate to reduce retrogradation
distarch phosphate (E1412) by esterification with for example sodium trimetaphosphate, crosslinked starch modifying the rheology, the texture
acetylated starch (E1420) esterification with acetic anhydride
hydroxypropylated starch (E1440), starch ether, with propylene oxide, increasing viscosity stability
hydroxyethyl starch, with ethylene oxide
Octenyl succinic anhydride (OSA) starch (E1450) used as emulsifier adding hydrophobicity
cationic starch, adding positive electrical charge to starch
carboxymethylated starch with monochloroacetic acid adding negative charge
Rob, bitte…
unmodified heisst “native”, also nicht gekocht, geheizt usw. Nichts mit GMO tu tun. Siehe hier:
http://www.agrana.at/unsere-produkte/staerke/lebensmittelzutaten/native-staerken/
Viele Grüsse von Tschechien
@tatertot,
thx for the info about starch in industry and the explaination about “modified” vs. “un-modified”.
Poster Bernhard thinks that the brand I am using is unmodified.
I there a home-lab-way (aka as kitchen) to check if the PS is pre-gelatinzed or not? Has it to do with solubility in cold water or something similar?
Thanks for your info
Rob
ps. thanks also for all your efforts going into this topic!
pps. do you personally think this will ever hit the shops with kind of “fortified food” or something similar, or is the wind-factor going to prevend big food to take on this idea (think of a big food brand snacks with PS to make it “healthier”…
@ Rob
“Poster Bernhard thinks that the brand I am using is unmodified.”
Wrong.
Poster Bernhard knows that.
Ask Richard to give my email and I’ll send you the data sheets.
Btw. If interested; Soon there is to be a large quantity of Organic “Bio”
starch to be arriving at this house. If interested you can share some of this
(it is sold only in rather large bulk) and Vienna is rather close to here.
Be prepared but, price is at least double that of “conventional” stuff like Ruma.
Peace.
@Berhard,
OK got it, thx :)
Yeah would be interested in sharing. Will ask Richard for your email and send you a PN.
Best wishes from Wienerwald
Rob
@Gemma
ok, now it makes more sense to me… looked at the AGRANA site but I didn’t connect the dots…
:)
with their product data sheet for various starch products it becomes very clear.
Maybe I should end this slightly off-topic thread by thanking everybody for their efforts! :)
best rgds
Rob
@ Rob
Markets “Billa” or “Spar”.
Brand RUMA is perfectly unmodified potato starch.
Peace.
@Bernhard
thy for your reply! I am actually using the mentioned brand, but a friend works at AGRANA, maybe they have a good deal on PS as well… ;) 10kg bag would be fine with me!
Does unmodiefied mean “no genetically modified potatoes used for this PS”?
I would have thought so…
Cheers from VIE
Rob
@GeoffD, I had significant constipation when I started. I started at 2T and had no gas, just significant constipation. I took a lot of extra C and magnesium to help things along. I had other signs–jaw pain, I think from clenching or maybe grinding at night–that in the past I’ve resolved with extra mag, so that was part of why it seemed helpful for me. I didn’t get any gas til I added in that third tablespoon.
Grace, Together with my fiber/starch/polyphenol mix I take a probiotic called “BIFILAC HP” that I picked up in India two years ago and I also take “BIO-KULT” every second day. The Bifilac HP contains Clostridium butyricum MIYAIRI 588 plus other “Prebiotic” microbes. I do occasionally have “gassy” periods but this may be due to the FOS and Inulin in my mix plus the diet of the day. But no gas means no fermentation=no SCFA so I’m prepared to tolerate this. As mentioned before, if you don’t produce gas, you are unlikely to have a fully functioning healthy body.
Probiotic-3 appears to be a similar mix. There is another brand called “Bio-three”.
http://www.abpl.co.in/images/biflac.pdf
The reason I take a mix of Non starch Polysaccharides AND Potato starch plus the Polyphenol is to make sure fermentation takes place throughtout the intestinal segments as well as the Cecum. My main aim is to achieve physiologically active levels of SCFA (esp Butyric acid) throughtout the GI tract.The composition of the microbiota in the Ileum,Cecum, Ascending Colon, Transverse colon and sigmoid colon is thought to be different due to ph and oxygen levels plus availability of substrate to feed on. most of the soluble fiber is fermented in the Cecum and ascending Colon and very little reaches the distal Colon. This is the reason I add Wheat Bran. Potato starch is probably fermented in all the segments, depending on dose consumed. The polyphenol complex is my idea of keeping the population of harmful or Pathogenic microbes low as the starch is likely to feed these as well. I theorize that my Polyphenol/Gelatin complex reaches the Ileum and Colon without breaking up in the acidic ph of the Stomach but does separate into Gelatin and Polyphenol (Tannin) in the intestines (alkaline ph)to act as agents to discourage pathogenic bacterial growth or adherence to the intestinal mucosa. I found this article useful in formulating my mix:
Short-Chain Fatty Acids and Human Colonic Function:
Roles of Resistant Starch and Nonstarch Polysaccharides
link to Article :
Short-Chain Fatty Acids and Human Colonic Function:
Roles of Resistant Starch and Nonstarch Polysaccharides
http://physrev.physiology.org/content/81/3/1031.full.pdf
newbie — hey. As a pharmacist I’m just concerned with how lactulose is a liquid in plastic (BPA, pthlates). Did you know that the improvements that you listed for lactulose is seen with RS as well? Like anything, the synergy of prebiotic + probiotic is best if appropriate.
“Prebiotics such as lactulose are commonly used for the prevention and treatment
of this complication of cirrhosis. Minimal hepatic encephalopathy was reversed
in 50% of patients treated with a synbiotic preparation (four probiotic strains and
four fermentable fibers, including inulin and resistant starch) for 30 days.”
Ashwin — that’s awesome! I do the same if I’m short of time and not eating optimally. I do the same formula (sans toxic wheat bran): psyllium 1 Tbs (I’m not allergic) + PS 3 Tbs + high ORAC green powder (or acerola)
Yes — I’m very familiar with the link Roles or RS + NSP. Studies verify that RS alone kinda sucks. But at NSP, synergistic benefits. Likewise, RS alone not great but add a probiotic, then benefits are knocked outta the park. Good job.
Spanish Caravan,
I’d love to look at this deeper, the role of starving out commensals and all the downstream adverse immunogenic effects… For me, I appeared to get royally screwed immunologically when I was deep VLC and had (unknown) adrenal dysregulation. Thank goodness I didn’t develop an autoimmune attack but I had in the stools IgA (+) against gluten for MONTHS (after one trip to France and mega croissant intakes). It took about 2-3 yrs to get out of the immuno-hole. Nothing worked and somehow I developed Ig against mercury (per a Clifford testing from my integrative dentist), which was seriously f*kced UP (because I had a thimerisol containing Tetanus shot that likely initiated several things).
I think it is wonderful that you notices these correlations between the microbiota-gut-immune axis and the links to our epidemic cancer, autoimmune disorders and blatant immune dysregulation/deficiencies.
DuckDodgers,
Thanks for posting on Leach. I’m like Leach… We are grain eaters (gluten-free). My kids and I have genotypes that suggest that our ancestors favored grain eating. We are apoE2/3 and FUT2 (-/-). ApoE2 have downregulation of TGs and cholesterol in the face of higher carbohydrate intakes. My TGs never exceed 99 despite eating boatloads of SAD high fructose starbucks and sticky buns. lol. My kids and I don’t make as much glycans on our mucosal surfaces and gut microvilli to feed the microbiota on the skin, mucus membranes and the gut. Instead I suspect our ancestors outsourced all the glycans and fermentable fiber/RS to food and diet.
I love Leach’s results but I feel he fails to see the relevance of soil based commensals and the prevention of autoimmune issues (like his daughter’s Type 1 diabetes). SBO from our minimally wasted food, fermented sauces and vegetables and probiotics have actually been perhaps in high intake in our ancestral lifestyles prior to our super-sanitation and hyper-hygeine. The latest studies show even REVERSAL of T1DM models with the presence of the soil dweller commensal SFBs, segmented filamentous bacteria. Leach consumes a great and superior variety of NSP and RS. In fact I believe his whole food fiber of NSP and RS intake trumps even that of any reader here at FTA including ME! LOL. However he maybe feeding empty cages. He honors his symbionts but is detached from the soil IMHO and fears even touching the entrails of herbivores that are rich in SBO symbionts when he was following an HG tribe.
Great stuff, Grace. One dumb question:
I’ve noticed you recommend dirt consumption. I understand it. But how do you recommend we do that? The dirt in my backyard tends to have a fair amount of lead in it. :)
Grace, what value does Natto have in re: SBO compared to Prescript Assist? I know the species are different.
Aside from Prescipt assist and eating dirty vegetables, what else? (What about the presence of nematodes on carrots, for example? If they are present, can we deal with them? I’ve always been leery of nematodes.)
Gabriella~~natto has b subtilis (also in Prescript Assist) and b licheniformis. It’s truly a SUPERFOOD because the fiber in soybean legumes is RS + NSP. I do worry about parasites like nematodes, amoebas and Protozoa on produce but one that shields against pathogens is a healthy gut ecosystem full of health fungi and bacteria. I was just reading an abstract on how S boulardii prevents amoeba proliferation in the caecum in a rodent study. Good flora may hijack out immunity to put out anti-protozoan and antimicrobial defensins and other chemical warfare that mutualistically protects host and commensals.
DuckDodgers~~ Did you see the haute cuisine of gourmet DIRT???!
The Secret’s in the Soil
Modern Farmer interviews the world’s pioneer of “soil cuisine,” Toshio Tanabe
By Danielle Demetriou on October 8, 2013
Photography by Emily Shur
A heap of gritty soil is not a welcome sight on a dinner plate, except when you dine with Japan’s Toshio Tanabe. Tanabe serves dirt-based specialties alongside oysters, truffles and risotto at his Tokyo restaurant Ne Quittez Pas.
Tanabe, the world’s pioneer of “soil cuisine,” trained at Michelin-starred restaurants in Paris and believes that soil adds a healthy natural flavor to all kinds of dishes, from soups to sorbets. His customers clearly agree: Tables are booked at least three months in advance to sample his loamy delights. And what do they taste like? Tanabe’s concoctions have a textured and at times mudlike edge, although the dirt itself is surprisingly neutral to the tongue.
Modern Farmer: Come on. You really eat soil?
Toshio Tanabe: I’ve been eating soil for 25 years. At first I simply left it on unwashed vegetables freshly picked from the Earth. But a turning point was eight years ago when I was on a TV cooking program. I wanted to create something surprising in one bite — and made a soil-based dish. Since then, many people have visited my restaurant asking to try soil dishes. So earlier this year I launched my first soil menu.
MF: How would you describe the taste of soil?
TT: It is very hard to put into words. I would not say it tastes earthy, but actually like the Earth itself. Many people immediately use the word earthy to describe it, but that’s because of their image of soil. Either way, most people find it delicious and some say it has no taste at all.
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/10/secrets-soil/
Gabriella~~ we list the SBO strains found in several fermented foods here and the links on it.
url-removed/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_16.html?m=1
Wellness Cat Kibble: Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus (80,000,000 CFU/lb). The catfood also contains fermentation products.
I think my cats are probably doing quite well. :)
I’m defrosting the natto. Not sure I’m all that keen on giving myself a bit of cat kibble inoculation. ;)
@Grace,
That’s awesome. I would totally eat it. But, seriously. Is the occasional dose of Bentonite clay considered a dose of “dirt” in your book?
Grace, the micro-organisms in kefir (they vary, of course, but a general list)
Bacteria
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus brevis
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. delbrueckii
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis
Lactobacillus helveticus
Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens subsp. kefiranofaciens
Lactobacillus kefiri
Lactobacillus paracasei subsp. paracasei
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Lactobacillus sake
Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
Lactococcus lactis
Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. dextranicum
Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. mesenteroides
Pseudomonas
Pseudomonas fluorescens
Pseudomonas putida
Streptococcus thermophilus
Yeasts
Chamaerops humilis
Kazachstania unispora
Kazachstania exigua
Kazachstania exigua
Kluyveromyces siamensis
Kluyveromyces lactis
Kluyveromyces marxianus
Saccharomyces cerevisiae
Saccharomyces martiniae
Saccharomyces unisporus
Mix with potato starch.
Use as a chaser after Natto. Bacillus subtilis. (not sure if it has the other one you mentioned)
I figure that basically covers it all or mostly.
My kefir is very well fermented. Been making it for years.
DuckDodgers
You’re really clever to do soil analyses. How did you analyze yours? Is there any recommended remediation? I understand one method involved 5 years, metallic winged beetles and growing they’re favorite grass. Lol. Once contaminated by mercury, lead, or arsenic, it really tends to be impossible to remediate our abundant earth, no?
I think toxin-free bentonite clay is a fasinating and perhaps ancestral way of obtaining much needed trace minerals as well as scrubbing clean out intestinal garbage. I think of it as SPRING CLEANING! Lol
Gabriella
May I someday be re-incarnated as one of your pretty felines!!! If only!! Hell. THEY EAT BETTER THAN ME including their daily PS AND PROBIOTIC MIXES. Lol ahah. Hey ur kefir sounds good. Can I take a bath in it instead of the blood of 100 virgins to preserve my youth and wrinkle free beauty. JK
BethM
Quite frankly I’m more concerned about the extinction of our ancestral microbial ecology than any theorized phage dangers. Again I’d rely on ancestrally aligned guts to buffer any potential problems with pages. How do we know that our SBOs and other commensals do not also utilize phages for our mutualistic benefits? I would strongly suspect this…
FMT worked even in studies from 1958 I learned recently! But modern times have really wrecked and crashed our gut architecture, substrates and symbiotic networks. We need to rebuild them and being back extant species…. Yes u can eat soil if u trust it! I highly encourage. I do with a farm where the soil is tested and toxin-free (as possible given that we live in a toxic waste here in shanghai).
Recently Laura posted her Am Gut Project results with comparisons to high carb paleo Leach, vegan apologist Pollan and farmer RS champion Tim. Guess what? She may resemble your pre-FMT enteroprofile. Please check it out.
http://www.ancestralizeme.com/2013/12/20/my-american-gut-results/
After several rounds of antibiotics (like EVERY AVERAGE POST INDUSTRIAL WESTERN CIVILIZATION
INDIVIDUAL UNLESS U LIVE ON A F8*KCNG DESERT GILLIGANS ISLAND) her pathogenic Proteobacteria are off the charts and not diff vastly from the average SAD bloke. Even Pollans is better.
Her Actinobacter sucks compost. Lol. Hahah
OTOH Tim’s Actinobacter is stellar and probably many of his health benefits can be attributed to robust Actinobacter and BIDOFO despite having lame Prevotella (because he didn’t eat grains or NSP prior to Am Gut)
So let’s analyze why the soil originating Actinobacter is spikes robustly for Tim
— he eats soil.
— he eats a Ton of soil
— he makes and eats his own homemade kraut (cabbage can have Actinobacter colonizing)
— he handles soil and gardens with bare hands, bare skin and perhaps even breathes it or even during cleaning out of free range chicken coops
— he feeds the Actinobacter with their preferred substrate RS, PS and cold potatoes.
The Prevotella would be improved if the substrates were supported — but I think his Am Gut was immediately after a winter of little grain carbs and some leaning down. Certainly after raw rolled oatmeal no RS cookies, it would certainly be better.
Make sure u ask Tim which probiotic he’s taking now and what microbiota-gut-brain axis improvements are subjectively improved?
We can all recover form antibiotic damage but some need more work or a fecal transplant!
Tim is also antibiotic free just like his hunted ducks, moose, chickens and eggs… For over 14 years.
I wish I could say that but my last antibiotic was 2009 and I’ve had a million courses since I was a kid. Botanical antimicrobials however don’t hurt the commensals (as much). Plant herbals perhaps I think co-evolved to mutualistically protect their ecosystem friends whilst protecting them from pathenogenic infections and parasitic viruses, phages, retroviruses, spirochetes, fungi, bacteria, Protozoa and mycobacterium..
I’ve just looked up and compared some probiotics being recommended. I’m seeing that Bio-Kult may have a bit of lactose and soy, and its 9 out of 14 strains overlap with Garden Of Life’s Primal Defense HSO. The missing ones can be had if you buy Swanson’s Soil Based Organisms for 10 bux.
The bacterial strains are largely similar among the popular brands recommended here. For example, Threelac and AOM Probiotics 3 only have 3 strains but they both share Enterococcus faecalis. Threelac has 500 million CFU, while Probiotics 3 has 45 million organisms. Now how do you compare CFU with number of organisms? Which one has more? Is that what we’re supposed to go by?
Interesting that many of the popular brands overlap and have like only 3 strains: Threelac, AOM Probiotics 3, Natren Healthy Trinity. Natren’s strains are all in Swanson’s SBO but in much less quantity; 2 out of the 3 are in GoL’s Primal Defense. But Natren claims these to be “super strains.”
One thing I notice though is that Prescript Assist’s 27 strains are pretty much unique. I don’t see them replicated anywhere else except for its 2 Bacillus strains. What does this say about the efficacy of Prescript Assist? I know lots of people are recommending it. But it really does seem to be unique product, judging by its unique bacterial strains. Or am I wrong here?
I got the Swansons since they’re dirt cheap compared to the ones you recommend:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-soil-based-organisms-90-caps
My only issue with them is that they probably have gluten in them. I’m pretty sensitive though and I haven’t noticed any problems.
In the last month my wife and son have been sick with colds and various respiratory infections yet I’ve not had more than a slight cough for a day or two.
I’ve been taking the potato starch and these probiotics. I can’t help but think that it’s got something to do with it. I don’t normally get as sick as them but I do normally get sick.
The way I see things: my cats lick each other’s butts and then themselves and one another. I hug and kiss the cats. INNOCULATED!
Who says cats are gross? They keep my gut bugs in shape. Anything missing from the kefir and the natto and the kimchi and the fermented pickles, the cats make up for. LOLz.
Actually, come to think of it, the last time I was really sick was March 2010. Accumulated new kittens in September and November 2011. They brought many new microbes into my home.
Hey Gabriella
U CRACK ME UP~!!!!
We also love our pussycats — good beneficial SBOs as well as SOB parasites! We are doing rounds of anti-parasitics/antimicrobials so I think we are covered besides getting plenty of parasite-driven extra hits of TH2 skewered immunobalance…
Hey Spanish,
Here is a review but fails with inclusion of soil based or HSOs probiotics. There is only mention of hi-maize as the RS prebiotic though several companies are using potato starch (or some unnamed ‘non-allergenic plant/vegan fiber’ wink wink wink) like the ones I love — AOR Probiotic-3 and THORNE’s FloraMend.
“National Starch: The Hi-maize brand corn-based resistant starch has multiple benefits,
including acting as a prebiotic for digestive health”
http://www.drlowdog.com/Assets/pdf_files/FIHM_online_docs/FIHM_GI_Probiotic_Prebiotic_review.pdf
Did you know from the resource above that several companies (multi national conglomerates) use GMO strains in the yogurt and there have been numerous reports of IBS AFTER eating these GMO yogurts on the net??! YES. wtf.
One is Activia (Danone) with the GMO strain Bifidobacterium animalis DN-173 010 which they trademarked ‘Bifidobacterium REGULARIS’. funny.
Chobani is the latest (in Whole Foods!!) using GMO.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/foods-stop-selling-products-greek-yogurt-giant-chobani/story?id=21262692
Spanish,
Just as scientist are finding pesticides in our blood, fetuses and pregnant women (Bt GMO corn), these GMO yogurt bacterial strains are completely creepy to me. (hat tip: Keith Bell)
It would nice I believe to have a way of tracking our endogenous secretion of GMO ‘poisons’, their DNA in our bodies and the extent and degree of horizontal DNA transfer occurring because ANY bacteria can get these DNA then transfer to our gut fungi and bacteria… We screw our microbes and they screw us!
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.jp/2013/09/why-we-are-sick-and-fat-calories-in.html
LOVE LOVE LOVE this article ‘Microbes maketh man’ [and woman and child]
http://www.economist.com/node/21560559
Hey, catkisser – be careful with that…
have you heard of this – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis ?
would be interesting to know if there’s some bacteria to protect us from this cat parasite though….
catkisser, do you engage in particularly risky behavior?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121206203240.htm
Bio-physicist Andreas Kalcker, PhD has some fascinating videos/discussion on the parasite phenomenon within autism spectrum disorder (epitomy of microbiota-gut-brain axis dilemma) Simon Yu, MD is also a huge advocate of parasites being a larger concern than “oh thats only in the 3rd world ”
In our attempt at “healing the gut” within autism I’ve always felt the probiotics were an expensive stool additive but the RS as carrier is fascinating. I need to jump back into drbg’s blog regarding her SIBO protocol as google reader fiasco caused me to lose most of my feeds. I hadn’t heard of prescript assist.
Fascinating discussion Richard; thanks for adding in the comments without subscribing and for calling out Jimmy Moore. I don’t follow JM any more but watching you bitch slap him woke me up to begin my N=1 with RS. 3 days in has brought some nice gas….. although I can’t clear a room with it.
Most states have a “State University Extension” where they run these kinds of analyses for anyone who wants it done — for a nominal fee. They help you figure out the proper nutrient ratios in your soil when growing a garden, but they also run a lead screen for a few bucks. Anytime you have property where an older pre-1970s house/structure used to stand, there is lead there because people would scrape off the old lead paint and leave it to wash into the ground. I have no idea how to remediate.
But, again, doesn’t Leach and his “Mr. A” sample (see above) eat lots of NSP and still neither have much Prevotella? It sounds like you have to eat a lot of grains to get much Prevotella based on what it coming out of AmGut.
EM, I don’t even need to look. Toxo, right?
The primary source of Toxo infection in humans is not the cat. It’s the consumption of undercooked meat from infected animals. Lamb, pigs. There was an article about this in The Atlantic Magazine two years ago.
These cats arrived with Campylobacter, Chlamydia, and a couple of other things I can’t recall. Veritable petri dishes they were! To be expected. But since they are not now outdoor cats, inasmuch as they do get a large balcony to run out and along, I’m not concerned about the possibility of future unknowns. Cats DO catch OUR cold viruses though.
@gabriella
Ok, that’s good to know :)
I can’t say I’m knowledgeable about it, it just came up in my mind and I got a bit worried
@T-Nat,
Yes I got the GI FX test done about a year ago. For the 6 months prior to the test, I had been putting animals in the cages, but not feeding them enough. I was rotating the best probiotics I could find, and my test results still showed very low levels of the good guys.
I’m also dealing with SIBO and my test results for that showed that I have high amounts of lactate producing bacteria. I love the kefir and Greek yogurt that I’ve added in recently, but I’ve seen an increase in bloat and am thinking I should just stick with my Prescript Assist and FMT.
Keep us in the loop w/how your testing with Dr. Grace goes!!
I too found I had to hunt around here in Singapore to find any – now I see it in supermarkets and healthfood stores all over the place. Try the baking aisle or organic section of your supermarket
FYi on a start up company working on microbiome “food”. I guess they have not been reading this blog
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/microbiome-therapeutics-completes-bridge-financing-235999711.html
BRM potato starch might put a big hurt on them.
“NM504 is being studied in two placebo-controlled, double-blinded, proof of concept trials. The first is assessing its ability to alter the gastrointestinal (GI) microbiome to enhance insulin sensitivity and fasting blood glucose levels in prediabetic individuals. The second is testing the utility of NM504 in combination with metformin in diabetes patients with adverse GI effects. NM504 has previously demonstrated the potential to mitigate these adverse effects.”
lol
“MBT is developing microbiome modulators that alter bacterial populations and their environment in the GI tract to address serious health conditions. The company’s microbiome modulators are designed to act on multiple factors in the GI environment, augmenting the growth of targeted desirable bacterial strains and discouraging the growth of others. NM504 is formulated to promote microbiome shifts that positively affect metabolism and weight”
Form MBT’s website :
“Our first microbiome modulator, NM504, is currently in clinical development as a prescription product for treatment of prediabetes and diabetes. It is being studied in a placebo-controlled, double-blinded trial that is assessing the ability of NM504 to reduce fasting blood glucose levels and enhance insulin sensitivity in prediabetic and diabetic patients. The trial is also measuring other biomarkers of the human microbiome that are associated with GI and metabolic health, as well as relevant safety parameters.”
Come on now…seriously? A prescription product? ??
T-Nat
from Richards blog post, Thanks, Jimmy Moore
“Admittedly, stirring damn Potato Starch—that’s pennies per dose—into a glass of water and downing it is fucking ridiculous. Who the fuck comes up with this shit, anyway?”
really… fucking ridiculous. we should develop a prescription product…..
BethM,
I’d love to see your GI Fx from one year ago. Please shoot me an email — which you can get from my blog or contact Richard.
The funny thing is that over and over again from the literature and the (silent) failures (or snail’s pace progress) from the FTA show me that perhas a great majority that have a harder time obtaining optimal health (despite 6-pack abs, high cognitive functionality, slender waist, good Metcon/Xfit athletic performance, blah blah) — like you and me.
Granted I didn’t do a FMT but I had to completely rehab and renovate the gut architecture, ground up. Weeding was last and unfortunately was the most important. I think it’s great that you noticed the vital connection between feeding-seeding and vice versa…
The studies back it up as we dig deeper and deeper.
Here’s three to recap for the holidays:
(1) RS alone in commensal-free animals (see above ‘germ-free’) doesn’t do shit.
RS + probiotics (or dirt) however works but not in every study, particularly human. We are complex (or really GI f*kcered). Feeding empty zoo cages goes nowhere. Feeding viper-filled zoo cages doesn’t go anywhere either! Yes pathogens will ‘ride’ RS granules but they can only ride so much once they are tenaciously attached and feeding well in the long long long 25 – 32 feet long small intestines!
These are human animals post-antibiotic, which is everybody nearly on earth unless you’ve been antibiotic free for substantial time and eating dirt dirt dirt… Also “In contrast, the probiotics provided no protection when a low resistant starch diet was fed and the resistant starch had no protective response in the absence of the probiotic [35].”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2743755/pdf/nihms124363.pdf
(2) RS alone without NSP doesn’t do shit.
Sorry VLC or Paleo sans RS-rich whole grains/tubers trying to add PS only… I don’t think it will work IMHO. A case of a male’s metastatic colon cancer has already been strong and clear evidence to me… VLC + potato starch = more metastates (no cure like below studies where FOS/NSP are missing or insufficient).
NSP = soluble and insoluble fiber, eg whole soaked gluten free grains, tubers, roots, vegs) RS + NSP has synergy to protect against inflammation that leads to colon tumorigenesis
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/5/713.full
(3) RS alone without FOS doesn’t do shit.
RS + FOS, combination, however maintains Bifido or Lacto species in the gut microbiota whereas either alone results in immediate decline in Bifido and Lacto species in one pig trial.
http://aem.asm.org/content/72/5/3593.full%E2%80%8E
FOS = fructo oligosaccharides — eg onions, leeks, chicory, artichoke, veggies, FODMAPS, etc…
I wouldn’t do inulin or pharmaceutical FOS as these are linked to polyps and cancer in a number of trials.
“An interesting observation from the feeding trials in
pigs is that FOS and RS maintain colonisation in pigs when
probiotic consumption ceases. Thus, in animals fed the
control diet faecal bifidobacteria numbers declined rapidly
after withdrawal of the probiotic, but the decline was much
slower in those fed the FOS or RS. When FOS and RS were
consumed together, there was no decline in faecal numbers.”
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS62_01%2FS0029665103000260a.pdf&code=16e5873303f3be68b38b329bcd41b762
sootedninjas
Have you seen this? From a smart UCSF physician Daphne Miller MD.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/how-to-eat-like-our-lives-depend-on-it/how-dirt-heals-us
“Rx: dirt
Impressed by the growing evidence that our health depends on healthy soil, my “dirty thoughts” have turned to action. I now tell my patients that food grown in well-treated soil might offer distinct advantages when it comes to scoring the best nutrients and building a healthy immune system. Of course, identifying this food can be tricky since USDA Organic certification, while certainly a helpful guide, does not always lead us to the healthiest farms. Many certified organic farms do qualify as ecological, but some large-scale farms with this certification still till deeply and use approved pesticides—both practices that damage soil and the microbes in it. On the other hand, there are farmers who can’t afford organic certification who are implementing the practices of eco-farming, practices that have been shown to produce a rich soil and a thriving microbial population. Since there is no “healthy soil/healthy microbe” label that can steer us toward these farms, my suggestion is to ask this simple question:
“Does the farmer live on the farm?”
Farmers who live on their land and feed their family from it tend to care for their soil as if it were another family member. Going to farmers markets and joining a CSA (community-supported agriculture) are reliable ways to get this type of produce, and supermarkets are also beginning to support local farmers. Remember, the more we demand it, the more they will carry it. [really CUTE carrot photo]
Of course, another option is to grow our own food. Eating fresh-grown food from healthy soil is not an all-or-nothing proposition, and even a daily handful of herbs from a container garden can have a positive impact on our health. Whether it is homegrown or from a local farm, I do mention to my patients that they should think twice before peeling or scrubbing their farm bounty. After all, who knows what beneficial bacteria might be coming along for the ride? By the way, eating fermented farm-fresh vegetables is a great way to get a mega-dose of soil bacteria.
I also tell patients about other (non-edible) health advantages to connecting with healthy farms. For example, although the data is far from conclusive, spending time on a local farm might offer a relatively safe, low-tech prevention strategy for families predisposed to allergies. “Farm time” looks especially attractive if it obviates the need for allergy shots or rounds of antihistamine. Emerging research says time spent working the soil is a means to build community, improve strength and fitness, slow dementia in seniors, and improve school performance in teens. It would be simplistic to promote a connection to healthy farms as a panacea for all that ails us, but it has become an important part of my medical toolkit.”
thanks for the link Grace.
I remember when I was a small lad, all day playing in the dirt and mud BAREFOOT. Its always raining in the Phil., playing in the rain, dried dirt all over my body coming home at night after playing and my mom yelling at me take a shower.
this was a time when “industrialized food” is not yet mainstream. we eat our rice and yams all day long BUT we are still lean. go to the farmers market every weekend to get our meat (head to toe), vegetables and fruit all homegrown. fermented fish, fermented sauce and assortment of fermented vegetables and condiments.
“old world” traditional diet NOW all destroyed by Western Industrialized Food. I see pictures in FB of children in the Phil are now obese at a very young age. This FOOD PYRAMID is destroying mankind’s future generation.
As we speak, I’m looking into creating and adding fermented vegetables to my diet with RS as part of retooling of my diet.
“Does the farmer live on the farm?”
Very good point. Actually when I go to our local farmers market and I meet a new farmer I ask that question. When I like the selection of produce they are selling I actual visit the farm and see the operation. this is the only way to be sure. of course if the location of the farm reasonably close.
Interesting, Dr. BG. The article mentions that the same gene sequence was found in Bacteroidetes in seaweed and in the intestines of Japanese people. Which reminds me, Dr. Ohhira uses fermented seaweed as an ingredient in his proprietary probiotic, “Dr. Ohhira’s Probiotics 12 Plus”, which gets good reviews. He says he ferments and processes them in a culture for three years using 12 familiar lactic acid bacterial strains. Are aged probiotics effective?
I’ve been examining the bacterial strains of all major probiotics and realized that they all pretty much overlap! I mean … Garden of Life’s Primal Defense is basically Bio-Kult, which is equivalent to Dr. Mercola’s Complete Probiotics, which is the same as Dr. Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15, which overlaps with Udo’s Super 8 Hi-Potency Probiotic. And Mark’s Primal Flora is basically Natren’s Healthy Trinity. That’s because what they contain are either Lactobacillus or Bifidobacterium strains.
However, 2 exceptions: (1) 27 out of Prescript-Assist’s 29 strains do not overlap with any other brand’s. Check out, for example: Bacteriodes succinogenes. What on earth is that? There isn’t another probiotic with that. (2) 2 of AOR Probiotic-3’s bacterial strains do not overlap: Clostridium butyricum TO-A and Bacillus mesentericus TO-A. Is that why perhaps Prescript-Assist and Protiobic-3 are effective? They seem to be unique products, not just a melange of similar bacterial strains.
By the way, isn’t Daphne Miller the one who plagiarized Dan Buettner’s book, The Blue Zones, by writing about healthy zones (Blue Zones, Cold Spots, etc.) in her copycat book, “The Jungle Effect”?
Dr. Grace, I’ll shoot you over my results in a couple of days. I’ve got the paper copies of the results at home and will need to scan them in at work to email you. Curious to hear your thoughts!
Great holiday recap! I’ve been making an effort to add in more diverse veggies after months of having a very limited diet. My hope is that the longer I supplement with PS, the easier time I’ll have digesting different types of veggies. I’m still seeing lots of undigested food in my stool. I’ve done the digestive enzymes thing, and it hasn’t helped. I’m making plenty of HCl – any time I try to supplement with it, I get heartburn, which lets me know that I’m making enough of my own.
Thankfully no issues with onions and garlic!
The problem is that I’m so satisfied supplementing with PS that I usually only eat twice a day now, maybe with a small snack at night, so it’s hard to get those veggies in. Time to get creative. :)
It turns out that the brand of potato starch really makes a difference! I’d been seeing good results with Bob’s. Then I decided to give the Frontier Organic PS a try. Been taking it for about a week, and things started to change. I gained a little weight, got a little more bloated, my mood and energy went to shit, and my gas got so stinky that I could barely stand myself. We’re talking sulfurous rotten eggs. And they really hung around. With Bob’s, I was plenty gassy, but they were almost always odor free.
I switched back to Bob’s last night and I already feel a difference in my mood and the gas isn’t as stinky. And here I was blaming the kefir and Greek yogurt that I decided to toss into my diet last week. Those may have played a role, but I was still feeling crappy (and stinky!) days after removing them. I’ll stick with Bob’s. In any case, it’s cheaper and easy to pick up at my local Whole Foods.
A few other things I forgot to mention about the differences in the brands of PS.
On the Frontier Organic PS, I felt very warm, almost uncomfortably so. I was sweating at work when other were complaining it was cold. Today I’m comfortable.
One good side effect of the Frontier brand was that I got the great satiety that everyone talks about with PS. I could go almost the whole day w/out really feeling hungry. Yet I gained weight! This morning, back on Bob’s, I got hungry for breakfast around 10:30. So strange!
Beth, your warm feeling coincides with my try with Mung Bean Starch. If you become warm, that indicatest that they work. Plus, if they don’t move blood sugar. I don’t know how else we can verify that there is RS in these different brands.
I’m not sure if weight gain or loss might be the criteria for judging RS. I’ve actually gained about 4 lbs. on Barry Farms’ plantain flour. I find plantain flour to whet my appetite.
@Spanish Caravan, I thought the warmth was a good thing, too. And I definitely liked the increased satiety. I was actually starting to lose weight after taking BRM for a few weeks. With the Frontier, I was eating less but getting more bloated and gaining weight.
Another odd difference w/ the Frontier stuff – at night I take my 2 Tbsp. of PS in water with 1 tsp. psyllium powder. It doesn’t mix in all that well, but it’s still thin and drinkable. When I did the same thing w/ Frontier, the mix actually thickened up! I found that really strange. I don’t have a glucose meter for testing blood sugar, so I only have my own observations to go by.
2 weeks and the gas has returned and the BM is back, just much more enjoyable. Smooth and effortless. When are people noticing the dream effect? I’m sleeping very well, but I was before. Grounded sheet, blue block glasses, bedtime honey.
A little suggestion for the next series from a long time reader and very occasional commenter:
how about a series on how to maximize your RS input with real food, that is nice meals? You had some articles on potato salad very early on, but I’m not sure how uptodate that is with the latest findings. There’s also been lists about foods with lots of RS, but I’m not really sure how to nicely prepare them while keeping the RS.
I really love your finding, but I can’t really commit myself to shakes and other “weird” forms of eating my food long term.
Chris,
If you’re a long time reader then you’ve probably read on this blog, on more than one occasion, that achieving an intake of 30 to 40 grams of resistant starch would require platefuls of reheated rice, bunches of dried green plantains, and buckets of cold potatoes.
A table of the resistant starch contents in various foods are available on this site (I saw it somewhere!). It would be up to you to incorporate them into “nice meals.”
I just tried PS today for the first time today, Korean brand SANDEULHYANG from Korean market on Olympic and Western in Los Angeles. Got near immediate gas-reaction so I’m assuming is not flour, but starch.
I mixed 4 TBS into a 130 degree F bone broth vegetable puree/soup (scallions, garlic, beets, spinach, ginger, tomato). I used a stick blender. Will the blender destroy the starch granules’ RS properties? Is it better to stir in using a spoon?
I think 130 is borderline.
Sootedninjas, I believe you are correct:
Richard Nikoley // Dec 18, 2013 at 16:55
“30c (85Fish) is way below the 140F threshold”
I read somewhere that “processing” can destroy the RS effect in PS, whatever “processing” means, so I am concerned about the whirring blades of the blender.
So happy I found RS! It has all but cured my 2 year stint with constipation (started when I gave up grains) but I have also found that it has helped with indigestion. Previously I had to take bicarb soda or apple cider vinegar before going to bed or else I would wake in the middle of the night with serious nausea and indigestion. Can anyone explain this to me? I’ve googled it to death, but all I can find is that starch is NOT good in treating indigestion. Maybe it’s just coincidence?
Merrylegs
My speculation is that RS, over time, can help flush out SIBO. It’s well established that certain gut bugs love to attach to the stuff and they do it quickly, so is it possible that taking RS/PS just with water on an empty stomach has a flushing effect at it passes through the small intestine (SIBO is purported to be a major cause of chronic GERD) by means of bugs attaching to it and being carried off to the colon where they belong?
I too have had much better heartburn control over time.
Thanks Richard. Could this process cause abdominal pain..just below the ribcage? Coincidentally, just after I left my comment I developed pain in this area and felt quite bloated there as well. I got rid of it with bicarb soda. I have had pain there before but not for a long time. I’m just wondering if it’s the same as before (which has never been diagnosed as anything in particular) or whether now it’s the RS doing its job
Hard to say, Marry. Sometimes things happen. Hard to pin to any one thing. I do think that at least half of daily dose, at least for beginners, be with water only, on an empty stomach. I speculate it helps to flush the small intestine, so if you have some SIBO going on, could help there. But I also think it’s a longer term deal. Could take months.
Nobody messed up and compromised their guts overnight and nothing is going to fix it overnight. I’m waiting to see how things are after 2-3 years of consistent RS supplementation.
Thanks again Richard. I’ll cut it down a bit and be patient :)
The Tapoica starch has gained high prominence in making sabudana. They are also used on a large scale for the preparation of sweet dishes and beverages. Tapioca Starch Manufacturers, Vietnam Tapioca Starch Supplier
Am very curious to see someone implement this protocol with palatinose or UCAN superstarches.
Palatinose which I used even during keto provided this same blood sugar leveling effect and I blogged about it a good year ago, I never associated it with resistant starch from food as being keto its just easier to avoid starchy foods and be compliant.
Perhaps ill do my own N=1 once I get over this damn flu LOL
@Merrylegs – Interesting observation. I have had a similar pain you are describing–right in the vee of the ribcage, very painful, not accompanied with indigestion, heartburn, or major gas/belching, but feels like a burning in the stomach, right?
I first noticed it about 6 months after starting a low carb paleo diet. The first time I got it, I had just drank a large diet Coke at the movies on an empty stomach. This was the first diet Coke I had drank in nearly 6 months at that point. The pain lasted 2-3 hours and Tums didn’t help.
It happened several times again over the next 2 years–usually when I’d eat something harsh on an empty stomach–once is was after an entire 90% dark chocolate bar, another time after eating at a Mexican restaurant with tons of salsa and corn chips.
Now remember, I was just getting over fatty liver disease and had lost 60 pounds or so at that point eating a nearly carb-free diet. Here’s what I think was going on, and sounds similar to what you describe:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bile-reflux/DS00651/METHOD=print
Liver Bile Reflux. I think my liver was dumping an extra large squirt of bile into the small intestine right below where it comes out of the stomach–this causes the exact same symptoms, and can be really bad if it is recurrent. For me, it happened like 3-4 times over 2 years and it hasn’t happened in the last year since I started eating way more carbs and better food in general.
Not sure what your health background is, but it could be a possibility. The way you described it being ‘under your ribs’ brought back memories.
Hope that helps.
Tim
Thanks Tim! I’ve been sugar and grain free for 2.5 years now (basically high fat/low carb) and have lost about 17kg. I’ve been in a “stall” for about 12 months but it’s not worrying me that much. You’ve just reminded me, I didn’t eat much the day I had the pain and the time before that I also didn’t eat much because I was not well..hmm. I’ve also got gallstones although as far as I know they haven’t caused me any problems, I haven’t had any pain from them anyway. I had a test for h. pylori a couple of months ago because apparently that can cause pain just below the rib cage but it came back negative. I didn’t both going back to the doctor when the test came back negative for more investigation, because I don’t have much faith in them…I had to request the h. pylori test in the first place, they hadn’t thought of it. I’ll keep on with the potato starch (maybe a bit less than I’ve been having) and see what happens.
Thanks again for your help
@merrylegs – i’m no doctor, but the standard advice I give is to start eating more towards Perfect Health Diet and even eat beans. Lots of fermented foods, yogurt, sauerkraut, etc…lots of colorful veggies, and the soil-based and other standard probiotics along with the potato starch. It doesn’t have to be difficult, but everything you eat should be good for you and your gut bugs. A low carb diet might be good for you, but it’s no good for the trillions of bacteria that control your immune system and keep your gut healthy.
good job on the 17kg!
Thanks Tatertot, I have Paul’s book and have upped my carbs a little, but I do find it a bit confronting – after believing that carbs were the enemy for so long it’s hard to force them down sometimes. I eat fermented veggies, yoghurt and kombucha. I actually ate a piece of white potato the other day!! Gasp. Baby steps :)
Has anyone had trouble with fungal/yeast/candida flares as a result of RS dosing? I’ve been slowly building RS over the past 6 weeks — first with Let’s Do Organic tapioca starch, then Bob’s Red Mill potato starch (caused eczema), then Barry Farm plantain flour. My digestion/motility/bowel movements were greatly improved as a result. However after I got up to 3 TBSP of plantain flour (1 TBSP 3 times a day) it became very clear I was feeding a fungal infection. This while also supplementing antimicrobials and biofilm enzymes (Lauricidin, Undecylenate, Berberine, Cat’s Claw, Garlic, Serrapeptase, Lumbrokinase). I’ve stopped the RS supplementation while I work on the fungal flare. I have a history of gut/brain issues — constipation, depression, anxiety, OCD, hypoglycemia, hypothyroidism, and food sensitivities. Googling I found only a couple of references that RS feeds fungus. Has anyone else had this experience or have additional information? I’m wondering the best approach moving forward.
@Brad – I’ve never seen anything concerning RS and fungal issues, but to be honest never looked. I have a cruise through the papers later and see. You are down in S. America in the tropics, right? Any chance you can get checked to make sure you do have fungal issues and aren’t spinning your wheels? But, yes, by all means stop the RS if you feel it caused you problems and let us know what happens!
@tatertot – Thanks, I’m in southern California. I have a history of fungal infections. At first I thought my reaction (rashes, dry skin, sinusitis, sore throat, itchy watery eyes) might just be fungal die-off/cell-wall components entering the bloodstream. But I ruled that out when these symptoms flared upon eating something sugary.
I have some history of fungal infections — Candida, dry skin, dandruff. My symptoms, in addition to Rosacea, flare up with sugar. I’ve done very well on potato starch and safe starches — no increase in any symptoms unless I eat something sugary. Feeding the good bacteria seems to be crowding out the bad guys as best as I can tell (in me at least).
Thanks for sharing your experience DuckDodgers. I wonder if plantain flour feeds fungus whereas potato starch doesn’t.
Brad, I followed the Perfect Health Diet for recovery from Candida symptoms and it definitely helped me. Jaminet has personal experience with Candida, as he believes that low carb diets promote fungal/yeast infections.
It makes some sense. After a few months of being in ketosis, the Candida or yeast — being that they are eukaryotes with mitochondria — are able to slowly transition to ketones as their primary fuel source. They actually become very powerful when they use ketones for fuel and the bacteria that normally fight them off are starved from the lack of carbs.
So, Jaminet recommends the standard Perfect Health Diet (~30% energy from safe carbs) for their anti-candida diet — perhaps with antifungals. I imagine that the natural resistant starch in the PHD is a rather key element in fighting off Candida (by feeding the good bacteria that crowds out the fungi/yeast). All I know is that I quickly felt much, much better eating ~30% safe carbs and even better once I started supplementing with PS. I’m sure you are already using a good SBO probiotic, but if not, I would add that in. Good luck to you.
Thanks DuckDodgers. I too have been helped greatly by Paul’s Perfect Health Diet, especially the safe starches. I’ve found that just the right amount is crucial. And maybe the plantain flour’s marginal carb content is the problem here since I didn’t make any compensations otherwise. More experimentation is needed, but I’m reminded that my fungal issues are just below the surface. I’ve experimented with Prescript Assist SBO, but am unsure if it’s helpful. I typically feel fatigued after tacking them.
@Brad, I do have one other bit of advice that might help. I used to have terrible brain fog — for many, many years. It wasn’t until I started acupuncture that my brain fog began to lift, for the first time in my life. I soon began using a drop or two of 400mcg of Nascent Iodine placed on my forearm and also noticed more subsiding of my brain fog. If I missed a day of Nascent Iodine, the brain fog would return with a vengeance. So, I kept up both and soon began my RS supplementation. Within a few months, my brain fog completely vanished.
I’ve heard that some people believe that Candida is something that can’t be (and isn’t supposed to be), eradicated but rather that it might coexist with us to protect us from heavy metals in some way (don’t ask me how). In a healthy person, the Candida would be kept in check — not necessarily absent. When heavy metals become a problem, or the biome is disrupted, the Candida overgrows.
Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know, but what I do know is that iodine can be a powerful chelator and acupuncture can be used to increase blood flow to the brain. I believe the combination of acupuncture, transdermal Nascent Iodine and RS helped eliminate heavy metals from my brain/body and this allowed the Candida to retreat in some way.
Not sure if that helps you or not, but that’s my story.
I too have struggled with brain fog. Thanks for sharing the things that have helped you. Heavy dosing with antimicrobials has helped in my case.
Regarding the plantain flour issues causing a suspected fungal flare, I’ve been heavily dosing with antifungal herbs with no effects. This is looking more like a histamine/food sensitivity issue now.
I took anti-fungal herbs as well (A-FNG) and it lifted the brain fog within hours of taking it the first time. I worked up to a very high dosage over many weeks and had excellent results. Oral iodine didn’t seem to do much for me, but for some reason the transdermal nascent iodine, acupuncture (and PS) got rid of the brain fog completely and I am no longer on the anti-fungal herbs. They say that iodine suppresses Candida, but I really didn’t take that much transdermally (no more than 800mcg on the skin and a lot of it evaporates). In the beginning, my skin would drink up the nascent iodine instantly. Now it pools on the skin, so I suspect I’m not as deficient as I once was.
Duckdodgers, you say you cleared up your brain fog. Have you developed a sense of euphoria that some of us are experiencing? Just curious. It’s like an endorphin high and lasts up to 24 hours. I’ve experienced it and I’m hearing someo other people experiencing it. Especially after a good night sleep.
I beleive the brain fog deal is due to neurotrasmitter regulation induced by RS. It’s the brain-gut axis and the majority of serotonin is produced in the gut, I believe. These microboes actually regulate neurotransmitters. So if you have mental health issues, you’re bound to also have digestions issues. Dr. Natasha Campbell was spot on and zeroed in on the gut for autism.
So we have issues as broad as blood sugar control, insomnia, constipation, low core body temperature, ED, eczema/psoriases, fungal toes, depression and mood dysorders being cured by RS. What’s next?
I mean, seriously, shouldn’t the schizophrenics or bipolar disorder sufferers be given RS first before moving them onto SSRIs?
Seriously, I’m a bit worried about RS being branded a psychostimulant! Try taking 4 tbsps of PS before going to sleep, wake up next morning. It’s an endorphin high. It’s the same type of high that makes distance runners to go past 7 miles. It’s hard as hell to run 5 miles, but once you start getting “high” at the 5 mile mark, you get your “second wind,” and addtional mileage gets easier and easier and you don’t want to give up that feeling of exhilaration. Dang! I hadn’t a foggiest idea, excuse the pun, that RS could do that! Don’t take the elevator if you wanna get high. Take RS!
@Spanish Caravan,
My brain fog cleared up about 90% before I started taking RS – and was mostly greatly improved by the combination of antimicrobials, acupuncture and transdermal nascent iodine. But, RS definitely helped eliminate it entirely once I added that into the repertoire. I think, in addition to the serotonin, I like to think the RS swept up some of the heavy metals I might have been clearing as they were circulated to my colon (but that’s just an uneducated guess). But, yes, I have definitely felt endorphin highs with RS. That’s what took my mental clarity to a new level.
I tend to take my RS spread throughout the day because taking too much at once makes me feel a bit faint (hypoglycemia?). I have a glucometer, and maybe I’ll check sometime if I remember.
Spanish, we’re going to have to tie you down before you float away! ;0
Aside from your euphoria, how’s your energy?
hmmm. have not tried 4tbs of PS in one dose. I’ll try it tonight. Maybe I get the vivid dreams everyone is talking about.
@sooted, you just might not be recalling your vivid dreams. I thought i never had vivid dreamis but one night, I woke up in the middle of the night after a vivid dream and went to the bathroom. I recalled it perfectly then but by morning it was all haze. Couldn’t recall a thing. If I hadn’t woken up, I never would have remembered. Remember, if you get into a REM sleep, you’re gonna be dreaming, period. That’s what REM sleep induces.
What’s amazing though is they all seem to be very pleasant dreams! That’s what’s so amazing. When I was experimenting with LDN doses, all of the dreams I had were bizarre and hellish nightmares. None at all with RS. Seems almost like an NDE experience with a being of light.
I know I’m dreaming. not just “vivid” for me to see. seems like I’m “blind” but I know there is a “dialogue” going on and I’m just being an observer.
@Gabriella, now I’m beginning to think this sense of euphoria is the foremost benefit of RS. Before, I didn’t experience this. I was taking plantain flour and never saw this. When I switched to 4 tbsp BRM PS and started taking it before sleeping, that’s when this happened. That’s why I’m saying PS is much stronger (at least 2x) than plantain flour. The best description is uninterrupted euphoria upon waking in the morning and that lasts into the late afternoon. It lasts about 18 hours, I think. Literally, I’m walking around with a permanent grin.
So you can’t have a bad hair day with RS. Improve your moods, yes. Improved sleep, yes. But this goes way beyond! Seriously, you have to recommend RS to all clinically depressed people on SSRI. RS can improve your quality of life immensely. It’s not just blood sugar and bowel movement. It sort of quickens your fancy, so to speak. If you are an artist in need of an inspiration or two, take BRM PS! It will inspire another Mona Lisa.
How long did it take you to work up to 4 tbsp PS?
@Spanish, have you taken the PS at other times in the day (eg in the morning on an empty stomach)? I’m just curious how much timing has to do with the effects you’re experiencing. If I’ve got it right, you’re taking 4T in water just before bed, no other at other times.
I took some time off from PS due to nightshade reaction. So I never built up to the 4 tbsp. of killshot. I was experimenting with plantain flour but not 4 tbsp. at a time. Maybe 2 tbsps. per occasion. Started taking digestive enzymes that seemed to mollify my nightshade reaction somewhat. Came back to PS and built up to 4 tbsp. right before bed.
That’s when I noticed the euphoria effect. I never experienced that with plantain flour and I was doing 4 tbsp., too. I also take probiotics at the same time (Prescript-Assist, Probiotics 3 and Primal Flora). I put it in a 1/2 a cup of Almond Breeze, add some beet kvass and some kombucha also and cap it at a cup.
I don’t think it’s the probiotics. I think it’s PS that’s doing it. You feel it when you wake up and then you still feel it into the late afternoon. It’s a Runner’s High. Back when I was in high school, if I made it past 5 miles, I would end up running 8 miles. You don’t wanna stop because of the high.
How come I’m just hearing about this now? You mean this is TMI, too?
Would be interesting to test your HRV (Heart Rate Variability) with a HeartMath device when you are experiencing that euphoria. I’ll have to try it sometime, but I’ve never taken more than 2 Tbsp in one sitting.
Spanish, what D Zymes are you taking?
I am up to 4T PS now but I take it in the evening a couple of hours before dinner. I’ll switch it up to post dinner and see what happens.
But I can’t seem to get rid of this pain in my left middle knuckle. All other joints are excellent. I am not sure if it is nightshade reaction. I have eaten all kinds of nightshade my whole life and never had any reaction. It’s possible that I was ignorant of nightshade allergies so did not make the connection to any symptoms I might have had.
Anyway, I want to try some Pancreatin I have lying around and see if it helps. Just curious what enzymes you were taking.
Thanks
T-Nat
I’m taking Garden of Life Raw Enzymes for Men. I take one after I eat a bowl of my bone-broth + mung bean soup. I used to even react to lentils but now I seem okay with it. I’ve only tested with lentils and mung beans, however, not real legumes like black beans or red kidney beans. I also react to egg whites, tomatoes, peppers and corn. I haven’t tested any of them yet.
I think the reason why I’m tolerating PS is due to GoL Raw Enzymes. Before, my eyes would dry out and my nose would start to run like Niagara Falls. Now, I seem ok but have to give it more time to see if I’m ok. Are you ANA positive? If you have that kind of reaction, definitely tell your PCP to test your ANA and chase down what it’s positive for. Most people with autoimmune diseases get diagnosed 5-10 years after they originally become ANA positive. Before symptoms, it starts with food allergies and Raynaud’s.
Thanks Spanish. I’ll make a note to ask my PCP to test for ANA next time. But so far my symptom is not debilitating but definitely affecting my strength. Grip is weaker and I have to bail out from pull-ups at the 75% mark because of this pain in the knuckle.
T-Nat
That’s enough of a symptom to be concerned. Do you have any family history of RA? If you are not restricted by an HMO plan, I’d just go to a rheumy directly, tell my symptoms, and have her test ANA ELISA and also HLA B27. RA is one exception where you might have symptoms first before ANA or RA/CCP Ab turns positive. All other connective tissue issues have positve antibodies plus usually ANA before symptoms appear. All such diseases, like lupus, MCTD, Sjogren’s, have joint symptoms. You’ll never know which is which and to trajectory your autoimmune attack is traveling.
The important thing is, if you catch it seropositive but before symptoms appear, you can reverse it by going gluten/dairy free, taking RS or LDN, etc. Once symptoms appear, it may be too late for most diseases (except RA), since tissue damage has been wrought for continuous attack.
Thanks Spanish. The only RA in the family that I am aware of is my maternal grand mother’s sister. None of my siblings, parents or grand parents have it. Interestingly enough, this issue has started after I went on PS about 2 months ago. If RS supplementation fixes it, it is either taking longer in my case or I should switch to plantain flour.
Been hoping that it will go away after the initial induction period but it hasn’t. I want to stop PS for a while and see if symptoms go away so I can make a definite connection between PS and my symptoms. But PS benefits have been so good otherwise I am kind of reluctant to stop at this point.
And now you brought up the euphoric high, I have to try taking PS just before bed :-) So I won’t probably stop for a while.
Thank you so much.
T-Nat
I’m having much more joint pain in my thumbs the last couple of months since adding potato starch and some cold potatoes each morning. I stopped all nightshades (including PS) on Monday to see if there’s a change. I’m hoping there is, and also hoping not.
Linda:
Any tradeoffs to report, or is life just supposed to be nothing but Roses in spite of anything you’ve done over—presuming—decades previously?
So sorry.
Thumbs might be just slighter better but it’s really hard to tell. Not expecting a life of roses by any means but the thumb pain interferes with life activities and sleep. One thing I have noticed is that I have had nary a headache for many weeks (months). Going paleo 4 years ago dramatically helped with the migraines as did working on hormones but I’d still get one now and then. But since about the time of starting PS, my head feels like what I think “normal” is. If that’s a trade-off then I’ll go back to PS (and eat some taters).
Linda,
I believe your solution can be found in this anecdote:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/an-osteoarthritis-recovery-story/
Good luck!
Also, if you want a more in-depth explanation on why the Vitamin K2 (as well as the other suggestions) works for stiffness from nightshades, read this:
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/nightshades
Duck, I wouldn’t consider that person’s n=1 one time experience as valid at all. I have back pain. I didn’t eat nightshades for 2 years. Did absolutely nothing. When I started back on eating them, I felt great. It had no effect on the back pain one way or the other.
There is truth that there are people sensitive to nightshades but I don’t think it’s as ubiquitous as this person makes it out to be. I have a patient who suffered lifelong eczema. Years ago I suggested to her that there may be a chance that she has a nightshade sensitivity, so maybe try to cut them out of the diet for a couple of months and see what happens. She did and she’s been eczema free for years now. But that’s the only case I’ve been close to.
Given everything, I think it’s best to avod goji berries. If you check on how they are grown in China, and that country is by far the number one producer, it’s better to give them a pass.
Thanks! Oddly enough, I ran out of vitamin K some time ago (can’t remember exactly when). I have some on order and will be restarting soon. Oh if that would be the solution, but over the years I have hoped so many times for the “magic bullet” (primarily for migraines) that now temper my expectations.
Linda, if you are in the US, you can get Excedrin. The caffeine in it is the clincher. I’m sure it doesn’t work for everyone, but people I know import it to Canada because for them it works. We can’t get it here because it’s illegal to sell a drug that contains both acetaminophen together with acetyl salicylic acid (ASA, aspirin). We can get 100mg caffeine pills though, so making the combo is not a problem, just a nuisance.
In this country, the government has banned everything that works, including therapeutic dosages of vitamin K2, larger than 1000 IU vitamin D3………..etc. etc. Big Pharma owns Health Canada.
Thanks for the excedrin idea.I am very sensitive to caffeine (23andme says “slow metabolizer”) and it can be a migraine trigger for me. Crazy that you can’t buy an ordinary drug like excedrin…
@gabriella, did you read the WAPF article on Nightshades that I linked to, above? Garrett Smith, NMD covers the mechanism for stiffness from nightshades pretty well. But, you would know better than I, so let me know what you think.
From the article:
try MSM and also blackstrap molasses that seems to help a lot of people
What back pain would you say you have? Could that be contributed to kidneys and the need to clean them?
http://www.medlabs.com/TestLibrary/Test2.aspx?tid=1001&id=125
Found a lab that would test for resistant starch content. Would anyone be interested in building a library of test value for different starch products?
@Mike Ede – Looking at the test lab’s spec’s for testing, you can see why a comprehensive database will not be forthcoming soon.
Price of the test: $130 per analysis
Acceptable Matrices: This method is applicable to grains, ingredients and lyophilized finished products.
Limit of Detection: The range of this method is 2 to 64% Resistant Starch.
Sample Size Requirements: 5 grams
All they can test is dry ingredients. So we’ll never get to find out things like cooked and cooled oatmeal, buckwheat, potatoes, or green bananas, etc… Seems more geared towards food manufacturers.
It also explains why some studies say potato starch is only 64% RS, whereas older test methods using ileostomy patients or humans chewing food first place potato starch at 80% or higher.
I looked into this last summer–you can actually buy all the equipment and test solutions needed to perform these AOAC tests, but you need a real lab to carry them out (subterfuges, centrifuges, deep freeze, and autoclave) kind of hard to do in my kitchen.
Shame there isn’t a “like” button :)
I had noticed the upper limit of 64% and had seen it in a number of papers, I wonder what the limitation is.
Personally think it would be useful to test even dry powders, whilst BRM is feely available in the US it is a pain find to find in the UK. Knowing which substitutes are any good would be useful. I’ve encouraged a number of diabetics in a Facebook group to try it but some are ending up with potato flour and BG spikes, it would be nice to be able to point them in the direction of safe choices (and know what % the safe choices are running at)
Cheers for bringing it to our attention though :)
Mike
But there is a “Like” button! It’s in the floating left nav that has all of the social network buttons in it (though your browser might be blocking it).
DuckDodgers,
Thanks for pointing that out, never realised that is what it was for!
BTW the Megazyme process covers grains and whole foods as well and is just a small hop over the water for me.
TTFN,
Mike
should of included this link:
http://secure.megazyme.com/Resistant_Starch
@Mike Ede – I keep hoping for a good list to surface, but i think the one we did here last summer will stand as the most comprehensive list for a long time. https://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf
As far as i’m concerned, a confirmed in this paper put out by the AOAC (the folks behind RS standards), potato starch has more RS than any other substance and does everything RS needs to do.
For people who absolutely can’t do potato starch, there’s always plantain flour and Hi-Maize corn starch.
Interesting paper on RS testing from the AOAC…they sent identical samples of a bunch of RS foods to 37 different labs and compared results.
http://lib3.dss.go.th/fulltext/Journal/J.AOAC%201999-2003/J.AOAC2002/v85n5%28sep-oct%29/v85n5p1103.pdf
Table 3 is interesting, shows the differences in %RS when looked at in three different ways: as-is, % of weight, and % of total starch.
Ha, well I had to know what Hylon VII is, wondering if they are now putting fire retardant in food (I’ll bet Tim knows what Halon is). Anyway, link is too dam long, just google it. You’ll get the mouth watering product data sheet which, in part, reads:
Description: Chemically modified starch refined from maize. Appearance: Fine white/creamy powder.
Label declaration recommendation: Modified Starch
EU Classification: E1422
Applications: BATTERBINDâ S is a food starch specifically designed for superior adhesion to battered and breaded food systems.
Applications include: breaded and battered food products such as seafood including fish fingers, battered fish, poultry, meat and vegetables.
Usage information: BATTERBINDâ S is a cook-up starch which can be dispersed at high concentration in cold water to form a smooth slurry. BATTERBINDâ S can be used alone, or in combination with other ingredients such as corn or wheat flour to prepare a wet adhesion batter or a tempura batter. It can also be used as a predust. It facilitates the adhesion of the batter and the breadcrumbs onto the surface of meat, fish, poultry and vegetables. In fried (or parfried and baked) product, BATTERBINDâ S provides superior adhesion, reduces the blistering on the surface and contributes to the crispness.
—
One wonders how folks in foods science manage to eat at all, anymore.
Stumbled on this trying to find what Crystallean is:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10352946
The carbohydrate crystalean and colonic microflora modulate expression of glutathione S-transferase subunits in colon of rats.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Glutathione S-transferases (GSTs)* are an important class of phase II, predominantly detoxifying, enzymes. The supergene family is composed of several isoenzymes, hetero- and homodimers, with tissue specific distribution and levels of expression. The hypothesis is that a higher expression of individual proteins within a specific tissue may be associated with a decreased burden of exposure to reactive carcinogens and ultimately with a decreased cancer risk in this tissue.
AIMS OF THE STUDY:
Since nutrition is expected to contribute to the gene expression, it was the aim of this study to investigate the impact of dietary factors, especially resistant starch, and of the gut microflora, which may be influenced by diet, on the GSTs in colon cells of rats.
METHODS:
For this, a technique using high pressure liquid chromatography was established with which for the first time GST isoenzymes were analysed in colon cells and compared to the levels of the corresponding proteins in the liver of the same rat.
RESULTS:
It was found that colon cells contain mainly GST pi and low amounts of mu but not GST alpha. In contrast, the predominant form of GSTs in the liver was alpha, then mu and hardly and pi Altogether, liver cells had approximately tenfold more total GSTs than colon cells. The feeding of “Crystalean”, a retrograded, high amylose starch which alters the fermentation profile and the composition of the microflora, led to higher levels of GST pi in the colon. Furthermore, the comparison of GSTs in colon cells of germ-free rats revealed they were much lower than those observed in rats with conventional microflora.
CONCLUSIONS:
These findings clearly demonstrate that the gut bacteria, or their metabolic products, enhance GST expression. The studies support the hypothesis that nutrition–by affecting the gut flora–may induce this potentially protective and important class of phase II enzymes in important tumor target cells.
Well now, this is interesting in terms of Tapioca:
http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/issues/2004-10/view_suppliers-corner/-993742/
Now available from Cargill Food & Pharma Specialties is ActiStar™ RT (resistant tapioca), which is meant to provide the benefits of high fiber in lower net-carbohydrate food formulations. Functioning as a replacement for flour with about 80% total dietary fiber, ActiStar RT can be useful in reducing the total net-carbs in high-carb foods such as breads and cereal. ActiStar RT has a low water-holding capacity, permitting high levels of inclusion with few formulation changes, and a non-gummy texture. Since tapioca, the source of resistant starch in ActiStar RT, is the blandest of all starches, according to the company, it doesn’t detract from the desired taste, texture or appearance of finished products. – See more at:
http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/issues/2004-10/view_suppliers-corner/-993742/#sthash.XAxGO4TD.dpuf
I like the reference to the “gummy” texture that comes from heating up RS. It turns out that potato starch is the “Secret” ingredient in Krispy Kreme donuts — they have an airy and gummy/chewiness to them and that comes from the potato starch.
So, it got me thinking about using Potato Starch in pancakes this morning, just for kicks. I did a quick search for “potato starch pancakes” discovered that you can literally substitute PS for the entire amount of all purpose flour that normally goes into any pancake recipe and it turns out surprisingly well.
So, I did it. I took a recipe and just made the whole pancake recipe as if PS was all purpose flour. Sure enough, the pancakes were great and had a slight Krispy Kreme-esque gumminess to them. It was pretty good!
Certainly all the RS was cooked away, but I froze the leftovers and now have some retrogradation-cakes on deck if I warm them gently. :)
@DD, link to recipe? Or pretty much any will do?
It makes no difference, Any will do. If you served someone a homemade Potato Starch pancake — by simply substituting Potato Starch for all purpose flour — most people would not be able to tell the difference. The only sign is that ever-so-slight gumminess, which is actually quite good in a piping hot pancake.
Many pancake recipes will call for vegetable oil and some sugar. I just substitute melted butter for the vegetable oil and you can use whatever sweetener you feel comfortable with.
@ tatertot
Read the text, do you think “native potato starch ” (product #8) is the equivalent of Bob’s unmodified product?
The other food industry concoctions are rather frightening – bottom line, stay away from processed foods and fast foods!!
@Newbie – Bob’s Red Mill and any other unmodified, food grade potato starch is exactly the same as “Native Potato Starch.” It’s also called Raw Potato Starch (RPS).
Hi everyone, I started reading the posts on RS over Christmas and dove right in. In short – minimal tootage compared to what others reported, sleep quality did not get better (in fact worse but could be due to other variables), satiety is great, carb/candy cravings reduced, have not checked BS so cannot report on the front. This is my first post ever here….
@Bernhard, Rob….I’m thinking Bernhard is German and maybe he can tell me if Kartoffelmehl from Bauckhof is unmodified potato starch? I’m guessing it is due to its color, consistency and neutral taste. I was just concerned that Kartoffelmehl was like Bob’s Red Mill potato flour (not PS) but I guess it is not. Ich habe ewig gesucht und glaube, dass Kartoffelmehl und Stärke das Gleiche sind!
@Richard – merci pour tout votre travail sur ce sujet. J’espere pouvoir aider mon papa – un TD2. C’est excellent que vous parler francais!!!
@Tatertot – just like I mentioned to Richard, I’m so thankful I found this info. It IS a game changer!
Michelle, Liebling:
Just tossed your comment out on social media:
~~~
FTA attracts an important international audience for a good reason. From the comment linked:
“Ich habe ewig gesucht und glaube, dass Kartoffelmehl und Stärke das Gleiche sind!”
And:
“@Richard – merci pour tout votre travail sur ce sujet. J’espere pouvoir aider mon papa – un TD2. C’est excellent que vous parler francais!!!”
Humorously, though my dad is a German immigrant and I grew up around all the familial Krauts, I had to run the first through Google Translate: “I’ve been looking forever and I think that potato flour and starch are the same!”
The second is easy:
“Richard, thanks for your work on all this. I hope it can help my dad, a type 2 diabetic. It’s good that you speak French.”
~~~
Dank für den Beitrag zur internationalen Flair.
:)
Michele, Ich hoffe, das hilft :
kartoffelmehl wird aus ganzen gekochten und getrockneten kartoffeln hergestellt, kartoffelstärke ist nur die extrahierte stärke aus den kartoffeln.
http://www.amazon.de/Bauckhof-Kartoffelmehl-St%C3%A4rke-Pack-T%C3%BCte/dp/B004RG4PZY
Liebe Mariet,
Herzlichen Dank für die Erklärung. Was mich aber verwirrt ist, dass Bauckhoff das Produkt “Kartoffelmehl” zwar nennt aber auf der Zutatenliste steht “Kartoffelstärke”. Also nehme ich an, dass es resistant starch ist und kein Produkt aus ganz gekochten Kartoffeln.
@ Richard- many thanks for the kind reply! What I said to Mariet was that although the product’s name is potato flour in German, the ingredients list only “potato starch” ( kartoffelstaerke). A Dutch and Danish reader posted similar comments. I just find it odd that the terms are used interchangeably in Europe. (Dutch and Danish really similar to German).
After 3 days of between 2-4 Tbsp of the stuff I bought I am not having an blood sugar crashes which I would assume would happen if I mistakenly were supplementing with potato flour INSTEAD of potato starch. I REALLY hope in not in the process of jacking with my metabolism by giving myself a big bolus of glucose.
I’m just gonna write to the manufacturer and ask…I’ll keep you posted.
Michele,
In die Niederlande , wird Kartoffelmehl und Kartoffelstärke auch häufig mit einander verwechselt. Stärke ist PS !
Bauckhof Kartoffelmehl (Stärke), Stärke ist, was Sie haben sollten.
Es ist verwirrend, weil die beiden Namen austauschbar verwendet werden. Stärke ist roh, Mehl ist vorgekocht !
Viel Glück mit deine experiment :-)
Michele, in the Netherlands, potato flour and potato starch is also often confused with each other. PS is strength!
Bauckhof potato flour (starch), strength is what you should have.
It’s confusing, because the two names are used interchangeably. Strength is raw, flour is cooked!
Good luck with your experiment :-)
Michele, in the Netherlands, potato flour and potato starch is also often confused with each other. PS is strength!
Bauckhof potato flour (starch), strength is what you should have.
It’s confusing, because the two names are used interchangeably. Strength is raw, flour is cooked!
Good luck with your experiment :-)
Michele, in the Netherlands, potato flour and potato starch is also often confused with each other. PS is strength!
Bauckhof potato flour (starch), strength is what you should have.
It’s confusing, because the two names are used interchangeably. Strength is raw, flour is cooked!
Good luck with your experiment :-)
For the English speaking people ;-)
Michele,
in the Netherlands, potato flour and potato starch is also often confused with each other. Stärke PS ! Bauckhof potato flour (starch), strength is what you should have.
It’s confusing, because the two names are used interchangeably. Strength is raw, flour is cooked!
Good luck with your experiment :-)
Oeps !
Liebe Mariet, Dear Mariet,
vielen lieben Dank! Thanks so much.
I won’t forget to report on what the manufacturer tells me seeing as I had already asked for the info before your confirmation that it is the right thing.
Frohes Neues, Happy New Year!
You all – just to add to this: I went through the whole search to find out whether Kartoffelstärke = Kartoffelmehl? I decided to just try it on myself. Kartoffelmehl aus dem Netto (ohne). 20g hat kein gar keinen Einfluss auf meine Blutzuckerwerte. Ich mache damit weiter.
All this foreign language has reminded me that few people outside of the English-speaking world probably know about Tim and Richard’s work. For instance, if you look at the English Wikipedia page on RS, you see this
Wikipedia — Resistant Starch
Lots of research being aggregated on the English Wikipedia page and you can tell that people have been paying attention to the subject and updating it.
But, say, in Japan, it looks like it’s way off their radar:
Wikipedia:Japan::Resistant Starch
Richard/Tim, you guys might want to think about writing a post asking for RS “ambassadors” in various foreign languages to spread the word to international bloggers — so that this important information can be shared with the rest of the world. It would be a shame if only English-speaking diabetics knew this.
@DuckDodgers…a German google searce for “Resistent Stärke Paleo” produced 10,400 results and I even found a local blogger here that blogged on it BUT I did not see any reference to Richard (FTA) or Tim. Looks like the subject itself is a big topic in Germany but for different reasons and I have not seenn any such RS experiments like the ones on this blog. I’ll be happy to look in French if anybody’s interested….
@DuckDodgers, this is already happening. A doctor in the south of Brazil with obesity patients (and a blog with about the same number of hits as FTA) has recently learned about this and verified himself with BG testing the effects of, or rather lack of effect, of consuming potato starch (called “fecula de batata” in Brazil). I believe he’s going to now start some tests with his patients. A friend of mine with an obesity clinic in Vietnam also just recently decided to look into this stuff after I told him about it.
That’s the thing about the internet – lies and truth spread fast. The bigger the need, the faster the speed.
Btw, note… obese asians! It aint from eating rice, that you can bet on.
BrazilBrad, why?
Also the BMI numbers for obesity in India, at least, is 25. 23 is overweight. They have much less muscle mass. Don’t know what it is in Viet Nam or China. I’d assume it’s the same. I saw a documentary on the skyrocketing incidence of type 2 diabetes in Vietnam. The Barker hypothesis.
@gabriella,
I think BrazilBrad is referring to this:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/03/red-meat-and-white-rice-oh-my/
Resistant starch sports drink?
http://generationucan.com/pdf/technical-breakthrough-sports-innovation.pdf
I think it sounds like RS:
SuperStarch – A Unique Carbohydrate
SuperStarch is not a sugar or fiber. Chemically it is a complex carbohydrate or starch
that is completely absorbed. SuperStarch is an extremely large glucose polymer with a
molecular weight between 500,000 and 700,000 g/mol. Since molecular weight and osmolality
are inversely related, SuperStarch exerts a very low osmotic pressure in the gastrointestinal
tract and is rapidly emptied from the stomach into the intestines. Therefore SuperStarch is
gentle on the stomach and highly palatable. In the intestines, SuperStarch is semi-resistant to
digestion, but is eventually completely absorbed into the bloodstream, thereby giving it a slow
time-released absorption profile. Because of the low glycemic impact, there is also little
stimulation of the hormone insulin following ingestion.
@ mike ede,
You may want to read this post to get the details on super starch. I cannot comment if they are the same as I would have to go back and re-read Peter Attia’s post. My first instinct is to say that they are NOT the same.
http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/introduction-to-superstarch-part-i
@Mike, yes but potato starch is much cheaper. Also SS made from corn may be GMO, dunno.
Maybe it is a dumb comment from my part but:
– if superstarch is slowly digested by YOU, as opposed to your gut bacteria like RS is, then it is obvious that they are not the same at all.
@ Michele
Curious as to why you think they are different. Will look at the link shortly. The graphs on the website look a lot like the BG graphs people have been getting from PS
@ BrazilBrad.
Exactly PS is MUCH cheaper :)
@ La Frite
Curious as to how they know what is digesting SS? They say it passes through the stomach undigested so presumably it is digested by the gut bacteria in the large intestine (unless there are other digestive processes in the large intestine? Genuine question, this is all quite a steep learning curve!
Interestingly Steeve Cooksey at diabetes warrior posted this on the yesterday (which I became aware of after my post here)
http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/2014/01/08/omg-intense-exercise-another-resistant-starch-test/
I “discovered” the UCAN SS in The Art & Science of Low Carb Performance Volek & Phinney and was struck by the similarities to PS (which is why I posted about it here)
Sorry Mike Ede that I never got back to you about exactly why I think super starch and RS are different. I had hoped to do my homework first and give you an educated answer but did not find the time. In the meantime, did you find out what the “chemical” difference is by chance?
@Mike Ede
Could you precise what you mean by “undigested by the stomach ? As far as I know, there is the small intestine to go through after the stomach, before the large intestine, and this is where digestible carbs are turned to glucose and make it to your bloodstream. I know basically nothing about SS but I assumed from reading stuff (without digging it) that the starch is broken down slowly in the small intestine into glucose. Maybe some goes further down ? I don’t know.
But take something like the polyol called xylitol. Some of it does end up as glucose so it is broken down before reaching the colon. But some does end up fermented by colonic bacteria. The glycemic index of xylitol is about 10 more or less. So the glucose absorption is rather slow. Or is it just an empirical measure hiding the fact that some of it is not digested by you but by gut bugs ? I really don’t know. But if SS is making it to your bloodstream, then it is (at least partially) digested in the small intestine before reaching the colon. It could end up being something like xylitol ? I have little technical knowledge about it so I can only guesstimate …
@ La Frite, thanks for that will look at that a bit more closely. Everyday is a school day :)
If I were to juice a potato raw, would I be getting RS? I haven’t seen anyone comment on it, perhaps because the dosage would then be unknown? I take vegetable juice most days as I do not have enough teeth to eat them the regular way, and wonder about adding a potato to get the benefits.
Yep, you’ll get every microgram of RS that way, but everything else too. If you want just the starch faction, then pulse it in blender or processor and squeeze through cheesecloth. There are videos on YouTube about how to get the raw starch from raw potato.
You’ll need to add water to do that. Forgot to mention.
hey, wairereose – Juicing doesn’t work. If you are using an electric juicer, the starch all stays in the pulp. Making potato starch is easy enough, though. I can get 4-5TBS out of a pound of potatoes.
just grate them, squeeze them through cheesecloth, then put the grated potatoes in a blender and pulse a few times, run through a wire strainer, and squeeze the pulp a few more times. You’ll need to add water along the way, maybe 3-4 cups total. when you are done, throw out the squeezed out pulp (or make hashbrowns) and let the starch settle out of the water, doesn’t take long. Pour off the water, spread the starch on a plastic paper plate and let it dry, or use it right away.
There are a couple videos on Youtube.
Oh, my bad. I forgot people have those juicer things. Never had one, never wanted one. To my mind, making juice means a blender or food processor and includes the fiber.
My apologies if this has become covered already. According to a member of the Circadian Biohackers group on Facebook who contacted Bob’s Red Mill, their potato starch is made from cooked potatoes. Is it still raw if the source was cooked?
Linda,
I find that very hard to believe. If BRM PS were cooked, it would cause blood sugar spikes every time we took it (it doesn’t). Furthermore, “unmodified” potato starch means raw potato starch. I can only assume that either the Circadian Biohackers group was given the information for potato flour, or the BRM rep had no idea what they were talking about.
They told me the same thing last year. Not true. well, kind of not true.
The potatoes are blasted with hot water to wash and peel them, but if they were truly ‘cooked’ they’d never get any starch. It’s just semantics.
Probably they are thinking if they said it was ‘uncooked’ people would associate that with ‘unclean’ or ‘unsafe’ so they say it’s cooked.
Bob’s Red Mill buys potato starch in 50 pound bags from a variety of suppliers, then repackages it in their little clear plastic bags. They are far removed from the starch business.
They must really be wondering why people are asking the question, though.
Perhaps they were referring to this version. That’s potato flour, not potato starch.
http://www.bobsredmill.com/potato-flour.html
@Linda
@DuckDodgers
@tatertot
The potato starch production process is mostly the same as described here (the air is hot, the granules are not)
“…Dewatering of refined starch milk and starch drying
It is a suspension of starch in water, which needs dewatering up to 20% of moisture. This is equivalent to the moisture content of commercial starch when stored. High temperature cannot be use in this process because of the danger of starch gelatinization which destoyes granular structure. It may result in significant changes of the functional starch properties. Therefore, removal of excess water from milk shall be done only under conditions that prevent the gelatinization of starch.
Dewatering of refined starch milk is carried out in two stages. In the first stage the excess water is removed by means of a rotary vacuum filter. Secondly moist starch is dried, without starch pasting. For this purpose a pneumatic dryier is used. In this device moist starch (with water content 36 – 40%) is floating in strong and hot (160°C) air flow and then dried during 2 – 3 seconds. Then, the starch is separated from hot air in cyclones. Due to short time of high temperature drying and intensive water evaporation from the starch granules, its surface is heated only to 40°C.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch_production#Dewatering_of_refined_starch_milk_and_starch_drying
I’ve been taking 2 tablespoons of Bob’s Red Mill unmodified potato starch twice a day for a few days now. Yesterday I noticed that after eating my first meal at 10:30 I wasn’t hungry for the rest of the day. I did however think about eating a 1/2 gallon of Blue Bell ice cream though, so no help there yet. Here is the weird part, I have gained 4 pounds in as many days. I have a scale that measures water and fat %, and my water has gone up 1%. My BMs have been a little harder and smaller than average, maybe I am carrying a little “extra”? My belly does not looked bloated or distended. Anyone have any thoughts?
Bet you weren’t expecting instant answers!
I have lot’s of thoughts.
Just roll with it and see what happens. Weight fluctuates all the time for a variety of reasons. Women moreso than men, but it’s normal.
Also, everyone is different. Diets, gut problems, gut flora, past antibiotic use.
One thing is certain: RS causes an increase in butyrate which is healthy for everyone, but not everyone may have the gut bugs to begin producing butyrate immediately. Stick with it a couple weeks at least.
If you want to try a different RS source, there’s no shame in that. Try plantain flour, or just really green bananas (1-2 a day) and a couple slices of raw potato. Also eat cooked, cooled, and reheated rice, potatoes, and beans every day.
Thanks Tater. Yes I plan to stick with it. I weigh and log my #s daily, so I realize weight fluctuates, that is why I thought it of note that my water did not increase by much (I am keto, so my water is usually pretty low) I am also taking probiotics and saw a marked increase in gas (not too much today) so I think my gut bugs are there and doing their thing. Since I can’t “SEE” those 4 pounds I wont freak out yet. I am wanting to see the benefits of no ice cream obsessive thoughts and sex dreams!
I know what you mean, I hate ice cream and sexy dreams.
Check back in every couple weeks and let us know how it worked out.
In a bunch of studies we put up several months ago, we caught flak because it was noted that rats were heavier after RS consumption, but had the same fat mass and lean body weight. Then it dawned us all that what was going on was an increase in bowel weight–more microbes and more poopage causing a bit of weight gain.
Glad you are on board!
Not having any sexy dreams, but have had dreams about alien invasions and killing one particular friend with my bare hands.
YMMV.
Are you sure about that, tatertot! That is hilarious. You mean the stool volume impacts your weight while in transit? Now I know why you shouldn’t get on the scale until you’ve gone to the bathroom. That’s exactly what Jared Diamond said in “Guns, Germs and Steel.” While those English colonists on a diet of flour and pudding expelled rabbit droppings, the indigenous New Guineans and Pacific Islanders who ate plantains like hotcakes had quadruple the stool volume.
Only those who’ve eaten fan-dried green plantains can understand and appreciate that you can give birth to Burmese Pythons. Not being Freudian here. But I think a dream analysis is in order with more details.
@Joe, never heard of nightmarish or hellish dreams while on RS. Are you taking it before sleep? Something is wrong because I am always having a blissful dream; the problem is I still suck at dream recall so I can’t recall details. But they were all uniformly pleasant and that’s why I was astounded.
Trust me, I’m used to nighmares. In fact, while taking Natural Calm and LDN I experienced vivid nightmares of being attacked by Komodo dragons. So I know I’m susceptible to that variety.
Curiously, though, I never experienced any sexual dreams either. They were all of the G-rated Sound of Music or Mr. Smith Goes to Washington variety.
I’m taking 24 grams at night in water, with an SBO capsule and a probiotic capsule. I’m also taking 10 grams in the morning with kefir, working my way towards a grand total of 48 grams per day in two doses.
I’ve always had very vivid dreams, with only the very occasional nightmare. Dream recall has always been good enough that I can get up in the morning and tell someone “about the crazy shit I went through last night.”
The worst dream period I ever went through was my two months on metoclopramide (Reglan) for GERD. Those dreams were always over the top, extremely vivid, most bordering on nightmares. I was supposed to be on the med for 3 months, but I cut it short because I was actually becoming hesitant to go to bed.
[After nearly 10 years on PPIs, and a pretty serious case of withdrawals (rebound hyperacidity), my GERD is now under control through weight loss and radical dietary changes. I now get by with an occasional Zantac, Tums, or spoon of baking soda.]
I feel that my dream activity has *intensified* while on PS — good dreams are more enjoyable, weird dreams are far more trippy, and bad dreams jolt me out of bed where I have to take a walk through the house to clear my head.
Funny you mention this. I was just remembering today that the only time I’ve ever experienced nightmares of epic proportions was when I was taking anti-malarials (mefloquine) in preparation for a trip to Zambia in ’96. I mentioned it to doc, he said it was nothing to worry about. I stopped taking them anyway, and later found out they cause not only nightmares, but psychosis in some people.
New post from Chris Kresser on the importance of taking probiotics and Resistant Starch during and after a (lifesaving) antibiotic treatment:
What To Do If You Need To Take Antibiotics
Heard back from supplier if Bauckhof PS and it is indeed the real thing…thus, anyone in Germany should pick that one as it is organic too.
Now a question. Aside from thyroid meds after a thyroidectomy, I am taking reservatrol, CoEnzyme Q10 and vitamin D in prep for an IVF. I assume not but is there any chance the PS might bind any supplements rendering them useless?
No chance the PS will bind with anything and cause problems, in fact just the opposite. If IVF is what I think it is, you’ll want your gut bugs as happy as possible. A big dose of potato starch does just that and they help keep the immune system running smoothly when well fed. The real upside is you may be so healthy you will give birth to 10 or 12 bouncing babies (OK, made that up).
ALSO, and not making this up, but a couple studies have been done that show when you eat resistant starch, you hold onto Vit D better. Many studies done about increased mineral and nutrient absorption w/RS and also chelation of toxins.
Good luck! Name one of them ‘Tatertot’
Tatertot, you’re such a dear for answering that I just might do that – “Tatertotchen” is “little tatertot” in German. Although it might make the husband jealous…
Michele, the only things I know for sure is that thyroid meds need to be taken on an empty stomach. There was a study done in Italy showing that coffee binds up 1/3 of the dose. My endo said that dairy products also reduce absorption. So I wait an hour before having my tea with milk in the a.m. If you are on synthetic T3, that is not affected because it is a salt.
Vitamin D being a fat soluble vitamin should be taken with a meal that contains enough fat to get the bile flowing. Have you had your vitamin A blood level checked? People think that beta carotene is interchangeable with vitamin A. It’s not. Individuals vary in their ability to convert.
Gabriella,
Thanks so much for your reply. I did know about taking the thyroid meds on an empty stomach. In Germany the docs say 30 min before a meal so I take them on waking and have my coffee with a splash of heavy cream after the 30 minutes. The dairy has not seemed to effect my levels and I my TSH is rather low.
The Vitamin D I do try to take with a fat-laden meal. Thank you though for reinforcing that. As for the T3 – I did not know it is a salt. Interesting. Vitamin A I have not checked and do not supplement with beta carotene.
The thyroid is a powerful thing. I wish I had never let myself be convinced to have it removed despite potentially cancerous nodules… but anyway….
Thanks again and GOOD health!
“Giving birth to a Burmese Python” … That is what happens to me when I add Psyllium husks to the potato starch… The first time it happened, I thought : ” yep, when people tell me I’m full of shit, now I know it’s true”….
Can you get the same benefits from drinking raw potato juice?
Also can you eat raw sweet potatoes or purple potatoes and get the same effect?
Andrew. While there will probably be a little RS in juice, not much because most is locked in the fiber and that’s explicitly what juicing is all about.
Sweet potatoes have almost zero RS. There’s lots of tubers, rhizomes and such that do, but not sweet potatoes. Don’t know about yams.
Hi Richard,
I have been chronically ill for over 11 years. I used to be an elite athlete until I came down with a flu-like illness and have never been the same. I have tried all kind of cleanses, fasts, and diets including Paleo and Raw Vegan. Nothing has helped me. Whenever I eat food my cheeks will get hot and sweat just below my eyes. My muscles fatigue quickly and I can no longer mow my own lawn or scoop my own snow. I wake up tired and have brain fog during the day. I have been diagnosed with Osteoporosis, Hypercoagulation, EBV, and CPN Bacteria. 3 years ago an M.D. put me on 3 different antibiotics for 14 months along with Heparin and it only made me worse. I now spend the majority of my day in bed.
I have nothing else to try so I’m going to give this a try.
@ Andrew
Dealing with other, but likewise “hopeless” condition(s) here. There is something very powerful about this RS. Although one has to explore and adapt the “techniques” used for the own condition. Signs so far (started Nov. 25 and a couple of times restarted after learning sugar, even sugar from fruit destroys whatever has been achieved before) are overwhelmingly good.
Wishing you all the best on this, across the globe, mutually shared journey.
Peace.
Be sure you take some good SBO probiotics along with the RS. Probably a good idea to try dr BG’s formula
url-removed/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html
Good for you for not giving up. Keep experimenting.
best of luck to you
@Andrew, so they never figured out what the “flu-like” illness was? Some kinda aut0-immune thing? Lyme disease perhaps?
I have no suggestions above what others would say here… maybe just start making your own home-made Kefir and take your PS with the kefir every morning. No sugar! Use stevia. Good luck. I hope the experiment helps you.
Okay, anyone got any suggestions for why someone would be a negative responder to BRM potato starch. Consuming with cool liquid on an empty stomach and seeing BG going up. Both T2 diabetics on Dr. Bernsteins verion of LC for diabetics. No recent antibiotics use.
The only things that occur to me, somehow the BRM PS has been heated high enough to burst the starch granules (don’t know if it is likely but I think tatertot said that they just rebag other peoples PS), Potato flour has been packaged in the wrong bag. Or they have bacteria that break the PS down and spit out glucose rather than SCFA. Or the stomach / small intestine can break down RS in certain individuals?
Obviously will credit any suggestions back here, just genuinely want to help these people.
test the source of the PS. in cold water pour 2 tbs and if it sinks at the bottom. check the packing too making sure that it says unmodified potato starch
Mike, about 40% of the caloric value of cool potato starch will be absorbed and converted to glucose. How much are you taking, and how much is it making your glucose rise? Taking two tablespoons would be about 20 grams of carbs, and 40% of that is only 8 grams of digestible carbs converted to glucose. It doesn’t seem like enough to cause much short term rise in glucose. So what are your details?
I have not seen any studies yet that demonstrate that potato starch taken at night will decrease blood glucose the next day. My experience has been the opposite. The days after I take potato starch I have higher blood glucose.
I have seen many studies that claim when you take resistant starch together with a meal, that it slows down digestion of other carbs in the meal, and it lowers glucose not only for that meal but for subsequent meals too. But one should realize there are many studies of this type that show if you eat *any* food that slows down digestion of glucose, that it has an effect not only on the current meal, but on subsequent meals. Here is one with guar gum:
http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/11/10/755
There are studies showing butyrate has the ability to improve insulin sensitivity. What I was really hoping to find would be studies that showed potato starch taken alone at night released butyrate in significant amounts, and that this in turn was moderating glucose. I could not locate that.
I have been hoping to find someone taking larger amounts of potato starch who would record ketones for eight hours after ingestion, trying to see if dietary potato starch can create meaningful amounts of ketone in the blood. I have yet to find anyone posting such data.
So, for now, I don’t take more than about one tablespoon, and I don’t take it that often. Waiting for more data, and it’s not doing any miracles for me in terms of glucose.
@Pone In a pig study the butyrate in the portal vein was 0.02 mmol/litre and ND in the periphery.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11177182
The effect of acarbose in humans http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10961161 yielded even smaller concentrations. I think the butyrate is made and used in the colon. My ketone meter will only read to 0.1 mmol so I don’t think you’re going to see a post prandial PS ketone surge.
PhilT – That’s what I read, too. Fecal butyrate is poor marker. A healthy colon should be using it all up. Actually, high fecal butyrate probably shows poor gut health.
Definitely BRM unmodified PS.
Makes no sense. What kind of dose and what kind of spike? Any idea? It should literally be the same as eating sand. I’d be curious for a non-diabetic 3rd party to eat 4TBS of the same batch and see what happens.
“non-diabetic 3rd party to eat 4TBS of the same batch and see what happens.”
as I computer programmer trying to debug a program I highly agree with this statement.
First of all, this is the first report I can think of in hundreds, so let’s keep it in perspective. Just recently, have read just bits here & there about SFCAs getting converted to glucose. Can’t recall much, though, and I imagine would happen over time anyway.
Also, this may be an adjustment deal, or one of those LC things. For myself, FBG didn’t budge at all until I really forced myself to get a decent carb load daily, I’m so damn used to fucking LC. The more beans, rice and taters I eat, the more my FBG has come down. I was 120-130 before, most days.
Lady currently on egg fast, LCHF for 5 months. From 4.3 before to 4.7 after 2h and After 4h to 5.7 no food consumed.
Chap currently following Bernsteins low carb for two weeks. ” First day I took Bob’s PS mixed in water twice at 1 tbs each, Second day 1 tbs with water and 2 tbs with whole milk greek yogurt. Yes, I’ve been eating Dr. Berstein’s plan for the last 2 weeks. Any thoughts?” , ” I saw a 30-40 point increase after taking it.”. Chap had zero fartage.
Most of the BG charts I’ve seen for RS show a small BG rise then a drop off. Tatertot, do you have any references for what makes PS resistant? I’ve only seen references to Amylose being a straight chain polysaccharide and therefore harder for the small intestine to break down (i.e. it does break it down to a certain extent) but the “special” thing about potato starch is the granule size isn’t it? Sorry, starting to ramble now. What I am now wondering is if thay take the PS on an empty stomach but with a fairly significant amount of water (rather than taking with food) it will help “flush” the PS to the large intestine more quickly?
Please don’t come at this from the point of view that I am trying to disprove or be negative. (written statements tend to rely on the perspective of the reader, so I just want to be clear about my intentions) I think what you guys have done is awesome, there are at least a dozen people in the Bernstein FB group that have had really positive results with PS and I am so pleased for them. I’d just like to help those that aren’t doing so well.
Thanks for listening,
Mike
Mike
This may have been discussed before, don’t know, just a thought; What IF, the often mentioned SIBO, interferes with the LOCATION the fermentation is supposed to take place and thus, could in SIBO or similar (and/ or leaky gut condition) this be the problem?
Duckdodgers or Spanish caravan (apologies to the one falsely addressed) have been reporting about RS enemas. Could this be a way to go forward (in case my above theory makes any kind of sense)?
Peace.
I was initially wondering that Bernhard but neither has any symptoms that would indicate SIBO and even if the bacteria where in the wrong place wouldn’t they still produce SCFA rather than breaking the starch down to glucose?
“Lady currently on egg fast, LCHF for 5 months. From 4.3 before to 4.7 after 2h and After 4h to 5.7 no food consumed.
Chap currently following Bernsteins low carb for two weeks. ” First day I took Bob’s PS mixed in water twice at 1 tbs each, Second day 1 tbs with water and 2 tbs with whole milk greek yogurt. Yes, I’ve been eating Dr. Berstein’s plan for the last 2 weeks. Any thoughts?” , ” I saw a 30-40 point increase after taking it.”. Chap had zero fartage.”
It would be interesting to know exactly how much eating. Eating eggs only is pretty extreme, an essentially ZC diet, so all brain glucose is having to be made. Hypoglycemia is super dangerous and I’ll bet it overrides everything. I know back when I used to do long fasts that from about 18 hours on I would get pretty wild swings in BG when I was interested in it.
Been doing a lot of reading today about starch structure, apologies if this has been covered before, I freely admit I haven’t read all of Tatertot’s excellent references.
It would appear that Potato starch has a couple of fairly interesting properties in comparison to other starches. Firstly the starch granules are a lot bigger than other starches. 50-100µm vs. 4.4µm for rice (the significance of which is that it much lower surface are to volume ratio, reducing digestibility) the other seems to be that the potato starch granules have a “membrane” that other starch granules don’t have. It would appear this membrane can be disrupted by extreme cold and heat. It would also appear that it can be disrupted by excessive drying at room temperature. I think I remember that the BRM bags recommend storing in the freezer.
Potato starch and Plantain/Banana starch are very similar. All the others have much more of a digestible component. Has to do with size and physical structure. I don’t know about it drying out, I’ve never seen anything suggesting that.
Mung bean starch also is very similar to potato starch, but it’s pricey.
The other option on the people who’s BG spikes is that they are just ‘putting you on’. That happens. I seriously doubt anyone has a small intestine that can digest raw potato starch. It would have to somehow be heated enough to where almost all of the starch granules swole and burst and become readily digestible starch. That doesn’t happen unless they are heated about 140 deg F.
Below that temp, there is just no way that RPS can spike blood sugar. Maybe some freaky liver dump of glucose or something, but that’s all I can think of.
This paper http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1961/Documents/chem38_34.pdf
Demonstrates amongst other things, some potato starch gets digested even at 30 deg. C.. It talks about the method by which potato starch is digested being different from other starches. It also talks about excessive drying increasing digestibility. I think this paper demonstrates that a small proportion of potato starch will be digested in the small intestine? I am happy to be persuaded otherwise. Like pretty much everything in nature I would think PS resistant starch granules exist on a spectrum of digestibility but the overwhelming bulk are in the effectively indigestible category.
This paper here talks about cold storage bursting the plastid membrane surrounding the starch granules:
http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/47/4/465.full.pdf
But on re-reading it I now realise it is talking about whole potatoes not just potato starch, sorry about that.
Mike – The first paper is a real beauty from 1961, how did you find it? I love old papers like that.
It looks to me that what they were doing was soaking potato (and other) starches in a concoction of bacterial enzymes and probably seeing degradation of the starch granules from bacterial action. At any tare, you can clearly see that potato starch kind of stands on its own when compared to other starches.
Other than that, I couldn’t really get much from their experiments. This was 25 years before the term RS was coined, BTW.
Thanks!
I know it is old but I am pretty sure the humble tater is much the same today as it was way back then :) It’s amazing what Google throws up, I was looking for papers on the structure of potato starch. I want to understand why so much of PS is RS and how RS resists digestion in the stomach and small intestine so well.
Agree 100% that potato starch stands alone, it is starting to make me wonder if some of the papers that look at RS derived from maize aren’t missing a trick and if some of the less clear cut papers wouldn’t have a sharper difference between the control and the RS if they used potato starch. I am also starting to wonder if it wouldn’t be possible to make a “super” potato starch, you could use a hydro cyclone or similar to remove all the small potato starch granules and just leave the whoppers behind. It might pretty much guarantee close to zero digestion anywhere other than in the large intestine (I accept that you don’t agree that it can be digested elsewhere).
Thanks again, it’s nice having something to stretch the grey matter and it’s even nicer to hear from people who this is changing their lives for the better. You did an awesome job putting the pieces of the puzzle together!
Wasn’t me! Must have been Spanish caravan.
“non-diabetic 3rd party to eat 4TBS of the same batch and see what happens.”
You should agree to eat the same foods those days as well….looking forward to your results. I’m on week 3 and cannot get my FBG below 106. (Yes I have added more starches to my diet.). I also wonder if taking a break and restarting a few days later might help to Reboot the Gut.
mine started to come down on week 4 and now ending week 5 I’m ranging 75-83 FBG
7 day rolling average of 80
@Bernhard
Can you please give me a link to how I should eat while consuming the RS?
How long have you been using RS?
Thanks!
@ Andrew
I don’t think to be the right person for giving advice on food. I do know Richard and tatertot are mentioning “Perfect health diet” quite often. Would you please redirect your question to Richard and tatertot?
Here we have been using starch – 3 people- since Nov. 25.
As you mention osteoporosis further up, one experience of mine (having this diagnosis as well) and problems with spine/discs, extreme pain about two/ three weeks into the RS trial not being able to find a position that would not hurt day and night (partially extreme dosage like up to 80 or 100 grams a day but). The pain was as bad as many years ago when an operation “resolved” a slipped disc, or it was even worse, on the other hand the pain was quite different, it felt “healthy” (I know that sounds crazy, lol). A good week later the pain subsided and pain issues that were present at lower level all the time before, are pretty much gone all together now.
Andrew
One thing I forget to mention. The person with the serious neurological condition. We have backed down the amount from 40 grams a day and re- started with just a teaspoon in the morning and are going to add a teaspoon at night from today on.
And slowly, slowly rise the amount, as well as rising prebiotics in the form of food (sauerkraut, kimchi as of now).
So I think it is very much individual and one has to! experiment and become an expert in evaluating and observing.
Bernhard,
Bernhard // Jan 15, 2014 at 00:58
@ Andrew
I am a fellow spine/ disc sufferer, you caught my attention! I have a couple of questions from your recent posts.
1. when you said “there is something very powerful about this RS” were you referring to reduced back related pain?
2. What did sugar and fruit do to your results that made you restart
3. Which “safe starches” are you consuming, how much per day?
4. Why have you backed down from 40 g to 1 tsp 2x a day? (Is thisthe same restart referred to in #2?)
“extreme pain about two/ three weeks into the RS trial not being able to find a position that would not hurt day and night ”
Do you think the PS has triggered the return of back pain ( and subsequently relieved it)? I am in week 3 and having a major flare but did not attribute it to the PS! Prescription NSAIDS, muscle relaxants, heat, ice…none are helping. No sleep here due to shooting burning pain.
1. Yes. Plus healing of skin and numerous other minor and major changes ( some of them not clear which direction headed but).
2. This is the person with serious neurological condition. Sugar killed digestion within 1 night, the result was a foaming, cow drop sized, sticky mess, next to impossible to get down the drain, imagine what this has done to the intestine. As we have seen this twice within a month into starch, following 1 day of sugar (Christmas !)repeated with fruit and sugary vegetables, pretty sure we are onto some sugar loving creature in the gut, starving it now.
3. Do not know what safe starches refers to. At this point PS, potatoes and cold ones also, same with rice (even frozen and thawed), lentils. Raw Jerusalem artichoke we experimented with, too “strong” at this point.
4. Yes, # 2. Trying it slowly this time. When digestion was destroyed due to sugar, the starch went right through, no or very little fermentation by bacteria.
As to answer below. Yes, PS has triggered this. Never in next to twenty years a reaction and experience that came close to this one. No meds here, refusing all of them since “ever”.
Best wishes, Peace.
Peace.
@Adriana, What was the original cause of your back pain? Don’t assume it’s the PS just because there is a correlation with the timing of taking it and the return of pain. I recently started taking PS and awoke this morning with stiff joints. I could easily think it was the PS if I didn’t think about the fact that I’ve been more physically active than usual the past couple days.
So we are talking about 2 different people – you with ostearthritis and the other with the neurological issues?
Have you both had to back down on your PS doses, or just the neurological patient?
Just the neuro patient backed down ( and is supplemented with little! sauerkraut, kimchi, and whatever else we are going to find and try on prebiotics). I headed into the 80-100 grams zone (Recently bought a 25 kg organic starch – rofl). Down to 50-60 grams now myself. Pretty varying now, as the initial gas has subsided to negligible. I like gulp down the 50- 60 grams in water once a day, before sleep. Peace.
Hi Brad,
I have a history of severely degenerated discs in the lumbar area. New symptoms are shooting burning pain in the front of thigh and calf indicating nerve impingement.
FYI – In the past I tested myself for nightshade intolerance by eliminating tomatoes, potatoes, peppers and eggplants for 30 days and did not see any changes upon reintroduction. Maybe, just maybe there are higher doses when taking 4TBSP PS which is a problem.
My original purpose for trying PS was to drop my FBG levels from a troublesome pre-diabetic level of 105-110 and that is being stubborn as well. Since a number people mentioned the 4-5 weeks as turnaround weeks, I’ll continue to stick with PS for now. If need be I’ll switch to plantain and tapioca.
Back pain people:
Have you tried this
http://gokhalemethod.com
I didn’t have back pain but was developing a bunion. After few weeks of working with her recommendations for how to walk all the foot pain is gone. I am pretty darn impressed and think it is definitely worth a try since back pain is the main focus of her work.
@Bernhard,
Just so I understand you correctly… your back pain got worse at lower doses of PS but was fixed after you upped the dose to 80 – 100g. Is that correct? Also, is your back pain related to arthritis (osteo or rheumatoid)? Are you taking any proboitics along with PS? If so, what kind?
I am having a flare up on one of my knuckles. I was up to 4 TBSP of PS but have given it a break temporarily for the last week. I want to know if super-dosing will help. I know super-dosing has helped a few.
Thanks
T-Nat
@Adriana
NSAIDS are known to destroy the stomach lining and destroy good gut flora. Perhaps then you are having an almighty reaction due to the juxtaposition of PS and NSAIDS (Hurting the gut and the stomach and destroying good and bad flora and at the same time feeding good flora). Good have some major die off toxins being released? Perhaps counter productive?
when I worked as a vet nurse, the NSAIDS would sometimes rip through animal’s stomach lining and intestines. (Even a cream that is absorbed may have a degree of this effec?). Most of the integrative or natural doctors that I’ve seen warn of NSAIDS effect on gut flora.
Renee, I’m doing what I can to minimize the NSAIDS and rebuild gut flora with prebiotics and the probiotics recommended by Dr BG. I also had a kidney stone removed in November which involved antibiotics so it is definitely a given that my gut has been compromised.
For back pain, read up on Richard’s posts on TMS. That cured my back pain (what a statement, after suffering for 20+ years). When I had a flare before Thanksgiving, I realized what caused it and poof, it was gone. NPR had a report a couple of days ago about a similar approach (but not called TMS): http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/01/13/255457090/pain-in-the-back-exercise-may-help-you-learn-not-to-feel-it
Ellen and Linda I have tried both techniques before. I’ll revist them again.
Adriana
May I suggest Foundation training exercises as well. After 30 years of back problems these have given me a step change improvement. http://www.foundationroots.com
Has anyone done a DRY FAST after taking RS?
Possibly of interest:
http://patents.justia.com/patent/20070196437
I tried 1/2 tsp of PS for the 1st time 1/2 hr before bed. Had a very rested & dreamy 7 hrs of sleep – slept the entire nite thru w/o waking up.
Added 1 tsp PS to buckwheat (RS 16-18) pancakes – yield: 8. Eliminated baking powder & baking soda. Enjoyed the moistness & airyness.
Plantain Chips (green)…..do they retain a good dose of the RS 35?
Alfalfa Powder – alfalfa is a legume & can be found in some green powders. Wonder what it’s RS is, as it’s not incl’d on THE list.
I doubt there’s any RS in alfalfa. Plantain chips, if made from dried green plantains are an excellent source of RS2.
Hey Tatertot,
If you cook plantains – either green or yellow/black, do you lose the RS? I would think that the heat of cooking is not dissimilar to the heat of desiccating (plantain chips), so I am thinking it is a good source. I ask because I am currently in a country that makes plantain casserole (maduros) for breakfast daily.
Cooked and cooled surely creates a good bit of RS3, so while you are there, figure out new ways to make plantain dishes when you get back home. Make them in large batches and store them in the freezer until ready to eat. My problem with plantains and all the other good tropical roots and tubers is that they are completely foreign to me, I have no idea how to fix them and make good dishes with them.
I used to get onto Paul J because while he mentioned numerous safe starches, for 99% of us, that just means potatoes and rice (and beans). I’d love to learn how to make maduros, and also stuff from taro, cassava, and chinese yams.
Not sure what you mean about ‘heat of dessicating’ but ant heat above 140 deg F or so will surely destroy the RS2. I make my plantain chips by slicing and air drying.
I question whether maduros have much RS because in ripeningthe starch would have been converted to sugar. that said, here are a bunch of good recipes:
http://www.mycolombianrecipes.com/featured-ingredient-platano-maduro-ripe-plantain
And hre are a bunch of cassava recipes: http://www.mycolombianrecipes.com/?s=Yuca
And hereare recipes for green plantains, which should have more RS raw of cooked and cooled:
http://www.mycolombianrecipes.com/10-recipes-to-make-with-green-plantains
Thank you for those links, Adriana. I just ate, but they made me hungry!
Ugh, I may be an idiot, but I am STILL confused. With green plantains, can you cook and cool like you can rice and potato, and get decent amounts of RS? I just dried some plantains in the oven at 200F so I could make plantain flour, then use that in cookie dough to eat raw. Sounds like I destroyed the RS2, but after it has cooled will there be some RS3? Is commercial plantain flour produced using cooler temperatures?
Annika – It’s OK. At least you can admit you are an idiot, many have a hard time with that.
Just kidding…here’s the deal. Raw, green plantains and raw potatoes have the highest RS content of ANY natural food. The starch extracted from raw potatoes and the flour made from raw green plantains are two FOOD sources that contain the highest RS of any natural FOOD substance known to man. There may be some exceptions, like mung bean starch or certain cassava plants, but very little is known about those sources.
You can cook with potato starch and plantain flour all you like, but the RS is only ever going to be a fraction of what it was when raw. You will get some, and if ‘some’ is what you are after, that’s fine.
If you are looking for a way to dramatically boost your RS intake, then raw potato starch and raw plantain flour are the best ways.
To make your own plantain flour, you need to peel and thinly slice the greenest plantains you can find, then air dry or at least not get the temp much over 120 degrees, to be safe. If the humidity is low where you live, they will be bone dry in a day or two. I lay mine on a screen in front of our wood-burning stove where it’s about 100 degrees with a little fan on them–they are dry over night.
Once dried, you can pulverize them however you see fit, or just eat them like crackers.
Commercial plantain flour is made at all low temps. They blanch them in hot water for a few seconds to prevent them from turning brown, but the water temp is carefully controlled to keep the starch from gelling. Most commercial plantain flour is about 40%RS by weight, but it contains other fibers and healthy compounds since it is the whole ground up fruit, whereas potato starch is much higher in RS but lacks any nutrients from the potato. So, good reasons to use both.
Hope this helps. For the record, you are not an idiot!
Thanks
Annika:
You idiot!
200 degrees? :)
(just yin-yanging, good copping, bad copping)
Sigh. Please take me out back and shoot me. Ruined two perfectly good plantains. :(
Thanks again, Tim – you seem to know EVERYTHING.
Since I can’t find plantain flour without paying twice as much for shipping as the flour itself costs (although I just noticed it’s priced at $60/pound again!), I looked up how to make my own, which involved (since I don’t have a dehydrator) a 200 degree oven. Somehow I overlooked the fact that this would mean it was no longer raw. Yes, I am indeed an idiot.
Above, you said cooked & cooled plantains do have some RS3 – do you know how much?
I’m trying to make the damn cookie dough that lured me into this resistant starch world to begin with. Oh, plantain flour, why art thou so elusive?
Just a WAG, I’d say cooked and cooled plantains have like 5% RS by weight, same as potatoes and rice. But it is so variable, type of plantain, level of ripeness, degree of retrogradation, length of time refrigerated.
My theory is that they will all have SOME RS, which is good. Maybe one day this will all be thoroughly studied and cataloged with a standard test procedure, but for now, except with raw potato starch, it all involves a bit of guesswork. We can however say pretty definitively what foods are a poor source, good source and great source of RS.
You are on the right track–good luck with that cookie dough (crack).
You don’t need heat to dry plantains or any other food. Unless it’s warm and very humid where you live, air alone should be sufficient to dry food if you give it some days. I dry most of my foods in the fridge, as it seems to dry quicker that way, but even that is not necessary.
I actually find that foods dried without added heat taste far better and I feel better when I do it this way.
For the 10 millionth time: no sources of RS can be cooked and retain even close to the original RS.
Any no, desiccating is not anywhere close.
Yeah, it’s another good reason to eat plenty of raw foods. Richard Wrangham eat your heart out. ;-)
Some very interesting research on Butyrate and Vitamin B3 (Niacin or Nicotinic Acid) receptors and Colonic Inflammation and Gut Health:
http://www.cell.com/immunity/abstract/S1074-7613(13)00564-5
GPR109a: The Missing Link between Microbiome and Good Health?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074761313005669
@Adriana
Hey thanks, I’ll give your recipes a shot. I agree with your assessment, I think that the green plantains will be better than the ripened ones (known as maduros,) similar to the situation regular bananas – green vs. yellow.
I’ve discovered that I like green bananas better than ripened yellow. To peel, cut off both ends, score down the middle and just unwrap ’em. They won’t peel well, like a ripened one.
@ tatertot
Earlier in this thread you wrote “If you want to try a different RS source, there’s no shame in that. Try plantain flour, or just really green bananas (1-2 a day) and a couple slices of raw potato. Also eat cooked, cooled, and reheated rice, potatoes, and beans every day.”
So 2 things come to mind –
First, if you reheat the cooled foods, won’t you lose the retrograde restructuring of the starch, and thereby get back the fully digestible starch?
Second, did you mention at some point that the frozen versus the cooled food has different amount of RS?
Thanks for taking the time to answer, especially if you’re rehashing stuff you’ve said before.
Newbie – i don’t mind. retrograded RS remains when food is reheated. I think it will remain intact until heated to something like 350 deg F, then it starts to degrade. A quick reheat, like frying fast in oil seems to be the best.
Retrograde RS starts forming around 50 degrees and maxes out at 10 degrees, so storing food in fridge or even freezer is great. Had to do with driving moisture out, ‘staling’ the product. Stale bread is the result of retrograded starch.
Tatertot, I can’t recall anyone mentioning polenta. Cooked, cooled, sliced and fried. That stuff is like the mealy meal consumed cold in South Africa. They use white corn in South Africa and yellow corn elsewhere.
In Romania it’s mamaliga.
This is stuff researchers into gut pH were investigating in South Africa. People cook it in the a.m. and eat it cold during the day.
I like polenta. We usually make it from Bob’s Red Mill Corn Grits, but I’ve also seen the already made stuff in the plastic tubes. Polenta made the ‘Big RS Food List’ and came in low:
Polenta 1.38%
Polenta – Cooked/Cooled 2.22%
But I suspect that it is highly variable depending on corn type and retrogradation (cooling) method, and also corn seems to have a property that allows it to get to fairly high levels of RS3 through repeated cooking and cooling cycles.
At any rate, we make it from corn grits, then stick it in the fridge and eat it like corn bread for a couple days, sometimes with butter and/or honey. It’s also good freshly cooked and hot, but surely that way does have very low RS.
Tater,
When storing cooked beans, do you drain off the liquid? Would beans frozen in liquid
still form retrograde RS?
Does rice pudding cooked with milk/cream/coconut milk and then refrigerated have less retrograde than rice that was cooked and refrigerated and then combined with cream, etc right before eating?
Do these things make a difference?
I drain off the liquid, but no need to. We also freeze bean soup made with chunks of potatoes.
On your rice pudding, makes no difference. A spoonful of raw potato starch mixed into your cold rice pudding works really well to boost the RS if that’s what you’re after.
Okay, now we need our own lab!
@ tatertot, and anyone else who is interested
These plantain recipes are exactly what I am eating here in the Dom Rep.- I put it in the fridge prior to eating here……
http://www.dominicancooking.com/532-mangu-mashed-plantains.html …. plantains are peeled prior to cooking
http://allrecipes.com/recipe/mangu/ …. plantains are peeled after cooking (no frying, just boiled)
Either way, once the dish is made – put in the fridge and just eat cold with whatever breakfast you’re having.
I figure it’ll be great to take to work for lunches!
Newb:
If I lived in DomRep, I’d just be going with plantains, cooked any which way, and incorporated in smoothies. You’re in the RS as fruit Meca.
Keep us updated.
My thyroid has been normal all my life, but my bones have always been cold.
However, it wasn’t until after taking PS (1/2 tsp 3x/day for the last 3 days) that my hands, feet & bones are finally warmer than they’ve ever been. The warmth occurs just in the nick of time as it will be 48 degrees in S. Fla tonite…..I usually freeze at temps below 75 degrees!
What is the mechanism for making that happen & will the body run hot at 3 Tblsp?
Hi, Pat – I have a couple studies on my other computer, but essentially, it’s the gut microbes that are controlling temperature. In studies with germ-free animals, their body temp rises 2-3 degrees when microbes are implanted. Whether this is something they do intentionally, (like controlling homeostasis, energy utilization, or thermogenesis) or simply a ‘compost pile’ effect is anyone’s guess. I have a pile of chicken poop in my backyard that produces steam even when it’s -40 out. the microbes create their own heat.
I like to think that feeding gut bugs well will increase their populations and your body will start running the way it’s supposed to. I’m not naive enough to believe this will happen in every case, but it’s a good start.
Thanks tatertot. Your explanation sounds logical & makes sense.
I ordered Probiotics yesterday & can’t wait to try them with PS next wk.
Do you think there’s any significant RS level in Plantain leaves?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantain
Leaves? zero RS I’m sure. But tons of other good stuff! Don’t let lack of RS stop you from eating unique foods.
This is ironic:
In search of warming foods in the Yin/Yang of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), everything I learned is not applicable to me…..as they never worked to warm my cold bones.
Here’s how TCM classifies the RS foods mentioned on this website:
Hot/Warming: None
Cold/Cooling: Mung Bean, Banana
Neutral: Potato
The Plantain, Tapioca & Beans are not addressed!
TCM does recommend eating room temperature food tho.
Hi Tater, Hi Pat,
The TCM connection has me wondering too since this is a big thing for my TCM practitioner – it’s important to have a core body temp that is high enough to support fertility.
And by the way – after 2 weeks of PS the dreams have started. Last night I was in the cockpit of a new dreamliner that was being tested as it was taking off. I was terrified….but it was definitely vivid.
Tater, I’ll say this each time I post – THANK YOU for all the research.
Michele,
My research of warming herbs led me to these that worked:
Tea Marsala (from Nirav – ginger, black pepper, cinnamon, green cardamon, nutmeg & cloves) &
I added a small pinch of add’l black pepper – purch’d at an India supermarket.
Spearmint Leaves (Herbabuena from Orale!) – purch’d at Western Beef, basically a Latin supermarket.
I was mistakenly under the impression that Mints were cooling. Spearmint Tea is warming!
Cayenne Pepper – short term heat, then a cooling effect. People in the S. Hemisphere use it to cool off.
Banaba limits glucose spikes. It might be neutral, but is not warming. Now I use Potato Starch.
I recall that Black Tea is more warming than Green, etc.
Thanks Pat for your reply. I will make note of these. I’m currently on an herbal tea my TCM guy prescribed but it is good to know about other options.
I wish I had a TCM educationb because I would love to know the TCM view on gut bugs and how it would explain potato starch’s effects.
Many thanks to those who replied to my question about juicing potatoes. I was eventually able to find some potato starch at an Asian supermarket, and have been taking it for about a week. Big improvement in getting to sleep, some dreams. I have not had the opportunity to search out a good probiotic yet, but suspect I may need one. I experimented with making kefir but did not have a starter culture available. Funds are very limited, but the potato starch was fairly reasonable at $2.40 for around 200gm. The only nutrition shown on the pack was sodium – is that likely to have been added? I have been keeping up with the thread by email updates which means I will see the reply, but won’t be able to work out how to reply to it.
If you are in Asia, just eat whatever fermented stuff you can find–better than most probiotics!
Strange to see sodium in potato starch, but who knows. Maybe used as a preservative? Don’t know, I wouldn’t worry, though.
Hey guys… Does anyone know anything about Horchata de Chufa??
Horchata is a process for filtering nuts, seeds, tubers into drinking form. Unless I’m mistaken, there is no fermentation or heat in this process.
“Chufa” also goes by the name “Tigernut”. However, it’s technically a a tuber and it has been eaten raw for thousands of years (as well as roasted, dried, baked or filtered into this “Horchata” drink).
And…
If this is all true (a big if), then we’ve just found evidence of raw starch consumption in a drink that has been going on for thousands of years — with one of the earliest known tubers to be cultivated.
Here is a nutritional analysis for Tigernuts (starch breakdown, etc):
http://www.gidadernegi.org/TR/Genel/dg.ashx?DIL=1&BELGEANAH=2365&DOSYAISIM=703260402.pdf
Here’s a report on the mostly unknown nutritional benefits of Tigernut:
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajfand/article/viewFile/70443/58790
Researchers have already begun to examine the prebiotic effects of Horchata de Chufa:
In vitro evaluation of “horchata” co-products as carbon source for probiotic bacteria growth
And you can even buy Tigernuts on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=tiger+nuts
BOOM!!!
It’s all true! Ancestral raw starchy tuber consumption, in beverage form.
All this time we’ve been drinking Horchata de Potato!
Check this out (from the report):
As for the history and health benefits of Chufa, that all checks out too. From that same report:
This is the historical evidence we’ve been looking for that shows that ancestral cultures drank a raw-starch beverage with purported health benefits.
For anyone who wants to test this out, here’s a recipe for “Horchata de Chufa,” the original starchy RS “health” beverage.
http://www.tigernuts.com/recipes_horchata_de_chufas.html
And, again, tiger nuts are readily available on Amazon.
Well, I’ll be GD’d. The Mexican restaurant we go to always has a big glass dispenser full of Horchata next to the register…I’ve never tried, I thought it was just chocolate milk.
Good find!
More about Chufas…
From: Senate Documents, Otherwise Publ. as Public Documents and Executive Documents: 14th Congress, 1st Session-48th Congress, 2nd Session and Special Session (1858) : Report by Charles T. Jackson, MD of Boston
:)
But, buyer beware. Not all “Horchata” is made from the authentic “Chufa” (aka “Tiger nuts” or “Earth Almonds”). Most modern preparations of “Horchata” tends to be made from Rice or regular Almonds. So, you really need to make sure they come from actual Chufas (soaked and strained, etc.)
Honestly, I don’t know why it took us so long to figure this out. In one of the customer reviews on Amazon, someone named “Cankles” said:
We’ve been drinking a Horchata the whole time!
Someone (GabKad?) mentioned several times that PS in kefir acts way different than PS in water. It must be the fat that keeps it in suspension. Horchata has a healthy bit of fat. I’ve mixed PS with almond milk and coconut milk, but that stuff is pretty low fat the way they make it.
But, yes, we’ve been drinking Horchata. Crazy.
Checked on Wiki because I’ve never heard of this. It says it can be Tiger nut Horchata served with Fartons……..I laughed.
Ha! I think on tigernuts.com (or somewhere, I can’t recall at the moment) they are supposedly an ancient cure for flatulence. Makes me wonder why that would be.
FWIW about the ‘high level or iron’ contained in tiger nuts.
I don’t know how much of a good thing can be harmful, but 1 in 6 people in the US and 1 in 9 in Canada have hereditary hemochromatosis (iron overload). For those affected, Phytates are a good thing.
http://www.medicinenet.com/iron_overload/article.htm
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/13/a-host-of-ills-when-irons-out-of-balance/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
“Various factors can impair or enhance iron absorption. Some vegetables, like spinach (Popeye notwithstanding), contain oxalic acid, which interferes with iron absorption. High-fiber foods like whole grains that contain phytates and foods high in calcium (hence the problem with too much milk) also diminish the amount of iron that enters blood. But the vitamin C and other acids naturally present in fruits, fruit juices and some vegetables increase iron absorption.”
Very interesting Duck…here is a grwat link for Tiger Nut horchata and a source for the nuts. http://nothemingwaysspain.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/guest-post-horchata-de-chufa-aka-orxata.html
Be sure to read the omments!
Mark Sisson gave tiger nuts the “Primal” thumbs-up a few years ago in this post:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-paleo-ezekiel-bread-v8-edamame-and-other-foods-scrutinized/
Crap… my auto-correct changed “Horchata de chufa” to “Horchata de chuff”.
The first line should read, “Horchata de chufa”.
It seems the Chinese Water Chestnut is a cousin of the Chufa (tiger nut tuber) and is also a good source or RS and can be safely eaten raw.
http://www.dissertationtopic.net/doc/514137
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Tiger+nut%3a+as+a+plant%2c+its+derivatives+and+benefits.-a0270375411
“The starches obtained from tiger nut and rice showed similar properties; the solutions of the starch exhibited a good paste stability, clarity, and adhesive strength. The starch can be used in many starch-based foods as well as in the cosmetic industry, and for laundry, glazing and stiffening.”
No doubt they have RS, too bad we can’t know exactly what.
Interesting… I found this patent application (in Spain).
http://www.bancodepatentes.gva.es/pdf/01UMHeng.pdf
Here we go…
Physicochemical and Binder Properties of Starch Obtained from Cyperus esculentus
Rahul V. Manek,1,4 Philip F. Builders,2 William M. Kolling,3 Martins Emeje,2 and Olobayo O. Kunle2
They have pictures of the starch granules and side-by-side tables (including amylose content) that compare the Chufa starch with Potato starch and Maize starch.
Boom!!!
DD- You are on a roll, man! Judging from starch granule size, amyose:amylopectin ratio, and a couple other things, it looks like tiger nuts are closer to corn than potato. Normal corn starch is not super-high in RS, like 5-10% if I remember right. BUT, cornstarch has really good retrogradation properties, which is how they make High Amylose Maize Starch. So, cooking and cooling probably produced a ton of RS3, but eating (drinking) it raw was a good bit of RS2.
But, I know the exact RS amount isn’t that important, what is important is that this RS rich drink has been around for a long, long time and the tubers as food around even longer.
True. But, since there is twice as much starch in Chufa than a potato, it is probably still a decent source of RS2. Certainly it’s an option for people who want to eat or snack on something simple.
Exactly!!
What’s most amazing is that you were able to reverse engineer the original prebiotic beverage without even knowing of its existence. That’s pretty remarkable in and of itself.
Pretty crazy that this oily ‘nut-like’ tuber had more starch than a potato. Potatoes are almost uniformly between 16-20%, a few specialty breeds just for the starch industry have 22-24%. Looks like the Tiger Nut could have up to 37%. Did you read where they could be dried and stored for years.
What did you find on the origin of the Tiger Nut? Was it an African landscape native? And what about earliest uses? Just to re-cap…
Holy shit…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus#History
Click through to the wikipedia link for the citations. (whenever I post too many links, my post gets delayed for moderation).
This is incredible.
You should put this all together and ask Richard to put it up as a blog. It would suck to lose this all in these comments.
As for drying and storage, from that same Wikipedia article:
So, it looks like the starch content decreases with storage.
This blog entry gives you an idea of what it’s like to grow, harvest and dry chufas.
http://goingtoseed.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/chufa-nuts/
Those tubers were tiny!
Good idea. I’ll try to work on a compilation this weekend, though Richard — if you’re reading this — you’re totally welcome to just cut-n-paste everything from these comments (I need a break!).
This is really unbelievable. Tiger nuts. We just discovered a 1.75 million year old RS eater and an ancestral recipe for an RS beverage in one night!
Scratch that… Tiger nuts are likely THE ORIGINAL RS SOURCE!
This study was just published a few days ago. It’s actually been all over the news!
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140109_1.html
TIGER NUTS WERE THE ORIGINAL PALEO FOOD!!!!!!!!
Here’s the link to the new study, published Jan 8 2014, that hypothesizes that Tiger Nuts were the original Paleo food:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0084942
Unbefreakinlievable.
Maybe I’m missing it–where does it say that? I saw it in the first paper, but not the second.
The Oxford report is all explained here, with quotes from the author.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm
Yes, gather up what’s known about these tiger nuts and I’ll put it on the blog.
Richard,
Here is the HTML of the summary I wrote up. You can drop that HTML directly into the post.
FYI: Jimmy Moore has already pooh-poohed this. But, he doesn’t seem to be aware that tiger nuts are low glycemic and have been shown to be helpful for diabetics and those with metabolic derangements (see my summary for references).
Duck:
Got it. Thanks man, and thanks for getting it to me in source html. Nobody seems to know how to do that right or I get stuff with too much garbage in the source.
Alright, saved in a draft for posting next day or two. If you think of anything to add, just let me know.
And, if we can clarify from anthropological standpoint, here is the general summary on what this early Paleoman ate (with this latest theory added at the end of the paragraph):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranthropus_boisei#Diet
Yeah, and have you noticed how omnipresent water chestnuts are in the Chinese diet? I always wondered why they stick such a bland food in many of their dishes. I have a better appreciation for them these days.
Only a bit of commentary. No need to publish these opinions on the blog — I think that the commentary should be left to you (it’s your blog, after all). But I just want to say that I believe this information can potentially be used to bring the ancestral community together — not divide it into camps. Unfortunately, I can already see Jimmy is trying to shoot this all down because the tuber just happens to be rich in starch and, well, he can’t have any of that. But, the evidence continues to pile up for safe starches and feeding RS to the microbiota, and at some point even he will need to make an effort to understand this or risk being made obsolete by research like the American Gut Project.
I think this connection between the evidence of 2+ million years of wild tiger nut tuber consumption in Africa — as well as the ancestral prebiotic beverage “Horchate De Chufa” — offers something for all ancestral dieters. To my knowledge, WAPFers do not have any ancestral prebiotic drink recipes in their recipe books. To my knowledge nobody in Paleo or WAPF offers any tiger nut recipes. To my knowledge, most low carbers are unaware of the diabetic-friendly and metabolically-friendly aspects of tiger nuts. And to my knowledge very few people in the ancestral diet community seem to be aware of the storied history of this tuber and how important it is believed to be for early hominid evolution. How can that be?
Instead of instantly trying to tear the tiger nut theory down, in some desperate attempt to support their own hypotheses, I hope people in the ancestral community will at least take the time to explore the research as well as the prebiotic and nutritional qualities of tiger nuts and how it possibly fits into the template of hominid evolution. It’s not a crackpot theory. The theory has validity, and it does happen to neatly explain how RS and starches might have made its way into the Paleolithic diet.
No, tiger nuts aren’t the perfect food. They aren’t a good source of Omega-3s and we obviously require more nutrition than they can offer alone. We are omnivores after all, and no one is disputing that. But, their place in the evolutionary diet cannot easily be ignored by those who wish to ignore it simply because tiger nuts happens to contain starch. That narrow-minded perspective has no place in good science.
It’s well known that we are not Paranthropus boisei (aka “Nutcracker Man”). We look nothing like him. We have larger brains, etc. It’s also believed that the invention of cooking changed our nutritional intake considerably, affording us greater caloric intakes and bigger brains.
But, I think what’s important here is that we’ve found compelling evidence of Paleo man eating starch and feeding his microbiome with RS and fermentable carbohydrates. This is something everyone needs to give a good look, even if it makes them uncomfortable.
Btw, Richard, be sure to watch this TED Talks if you haven’t already:
http://www.ted.com/talks/suzana_herculano_houzel_what_is_so_special_about_the_human_brain.html
It’s all ties into a very interesting theory on how our big brains evolved.
Oh, one more thing… you should probably mention that “tiger nuts” is just one of the many names for the wild tuber. If people just try searching for “tiger nut” info, you can easily miss a lot of information if you don’t also try searching with its other names.
Cyperus esculentus goes by the name tiger nuts, or chufa, or chufa sedge, nut grass, yellow nutsedge, tigernut sedge, or earth almond.
It can be confusing, particularly since it’s not a nut.
The most important thing here is that it’s a pretty low toxin tuber and can safely be eaten raw, soaked, boiled or roasted — with some distinct benefits from each type of preparation.
In all the excitement over the discovery of the tiger nuts, let’s not forget that we are assuming that it has a high level of resistant starch. But have not seen any numbers. Nor do we have any i fo on retrogradation. And, more important none of my research has shown the improvements in FBG that PS users are reporting. Until we have the benefit of N=5,10,50, 100 we don ‘t know if it is something to get REALLY excited about.
Richard.
Looks like I need to add a section with a few more details about the impressive nutrition profile. I’ll have a revision for you tonight.
Sounds good Duck.
@DuckDodgers, The tigernut is also commonly known as “nut sedge” and “nut grass” in English as well as many other names. Cyperus esculentus is also known as Cyperus rotundus. Check this out…
“Cyperus rotundus (coco-grass,[1] Java grass,[1] nut grass,[1] purple nut sedge,[1] red nut sedge,[1] Khmer kravanh chruk[2]) is a species of sedge (Cyperaceae) native to Africa, southern and central Europe (north to France and Austria), and southern Asia….
Cyperus rotundus is a perennial plant, that may reach a height of up to 140 cm (55 inches). The names “nut grass” and “nut sedge” (shared with the related species Cyperus esculentus) are derived from its tubers, that somewhat resemble nuts, although botanically they have nothing to do with nuts.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_rotundus
It’s also known as “tiririca” in Brazil as well as “amendoa da terra” which translates literally to “almond of the earth/land”. I’m still trying to find out if it can be obtained here.
Richard… It’s done! You can download the HTML here:
You’re not going to believe this, but the tiger nut is basically more nutrient dense than red meat — and almost rivals the nutrient-density of beef liver!
As the study points out, Paleo man might have spent “37% – 42% of its daily feeding time (conservative estimate) on [tiger nut] sources to meet 80% of its daily requirements of calories, and all its requirements for protein.”
It’s jaw dropping data and completely blows the doors off of low carb Paleo.
Paul Jaminet absolutely nailed it in Chapter 2 of the PHD when we look at the tiger nut and the corresponding wear patterns on Paleo man’s teeth.
Richard… Can you do me a favor and correct a spelling error before you post that? After the final table it should read “human breast milk” (not human breat milk). Thanks.
(Yes, tiger nuts have a caloric ratio that is very similar to human breast milk!)
Scratch that last request. I decided to make one more final revision and I fixed that spelling error.
So, it’s all good to go now, and I’m heading to bed!
Here’s the final download: http://cl.ly/TYwu
Got it Duck.
Do you want to be “DuckDodgers” or another name? If the former, where does it come from?
DuckDodgers is the name (just a word play on Buck Rodgers). This is your show. I have no expertise in this field. I’m just really good at finding things hidden/overlooked on the web.
I mean “Buck Rogers” (I added the extra d)
I have a weird feeling that tiger nuts (I actually like the name “Chufas” better) are probably going to take off in popularity this year. My guess is that you’ll be invited on the Today Show and you’ll be the first to publish anything useful about it :)
By next year I fully expect to see tiger nut cereal (Chufa Krispies) and tiger nut cookies everywhere. Within two years Monsanto will have made a generic hybrid of tiger nuts that will cause cancer in lab rats. Oh what fun.
Btw, I didn’t put this in my report, but for your own edification, the empirical data underlying this new study comes from a 1998 book by Stuart A. Altmann, Foraging for Survival: Yearling Baboons in Africa. Altmann presents the results of one of the most intensive investigations ever carried out on foraging behavior and its consequences for survival and reproduction.
Basically the wear patterns on the teeth of the Baboon and the isotope residue of Paleo man fossils helped solve the riddle. Really amazing stuff.
Really incredible stuff. I’m reading about the isotopes of the bones prove what kinds of plant foods an animal ate:
You are What You Eat: Using Stable Isotopes to Trace Dietary Shifts in Ancient African Hebivores
So, Nutcracker man had high C4 in his bones. And that was what confounded Paleo researchers. They couldn’t quite figure out how they survived on those C4 grasses. But, it was the C4 tubers!
Everyone who eats modern Paleo thinks that it’s all about C3 (very green and colorful) plants. But, the bones seem to suggest otherwise.
And for those who are having trouble finding the words “tiger nuts” in the breakthrough report, on page the author only refers to it’s scientific name, C. esculentus:
But, as I mention in my post (to be published), C. rotundas is very bitter and cultures have historically used it for medicinal purposes — only using it for food during famine. The sweet taste of C. esculentus, its high nutrient density and rich history of cultivation suggest that it was favored over C. rotundas .
And the author of the report is also quoted as saying that “tiger nuts” were the preferred food source.
Whoah… By 2 million years ago, C4 isotopes really dominated some of these early Paleo fossils (well before that there was evidence for more C3 consumption):
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/31/1222568110
Here’s another one… There really was a big shift to C4 plants as Paleo man was evolving:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/11/07/1204209109.full.pdf
This paper was cited in the breakthrough paper as evidence of C4 consumption. This was one of those examples of the researcher not being able to figure out how early Paleo man survived on such C4 grasses (again, it’s now believed it was the tubers they were eating).
Another one showing lots of C4 consumption by Paleo man (cited by the breakthrough report):
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/31/1222571110.abstract
Unreal. The nutrient-dense tubers of these grasses were apparently being gobbled up like crazy.
Here’s an excellent summary of the mystery surrounding all the evidence of the shift to C4 plants — it was written last year, before this latest hypothesis to solve the riddle:
A Grassy Trend in Human Ancestors’ Diets
The article is fantastic, and covers all the C3/C4 isotope research that narrows in on the mystery of Paleo man shifting to C4 grasses and how it relates with the evolution of larger brained Homo sapiens. A must read.
At the end of the article it summarizes previous findings on C3/C4 and how it all fits into the timeline of evolution:
Another great quote from the article that attempts to clarify where meat fits into this:
I think meat was very likely part of the equation, but those C4 tubers were most likely the main plant source.
…However, despite any chance of meat scavenging, I think the evidence is pretty clear from this latest study that the dental patterns of early humans are overwhelmingly pointing to tiger nuts as a main food source.
I meant “early hominids”. The early Paleo man wasn’t a Homo Sapien, which hasn’t been around that long.
Very cool stuff Duck. Thanks for your digging and posting.
Yeah… I definitely don’t think we want to look like we’re claiming that early Paleo man didn’t eat meat. The evidence of meat/marrow scavenging goes back a long, long time (although real “hunting” is fairly recent).
http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/evidence-for-meat-eating-by-early-humans-103874273
And its obvious that our digestive systems and teeth evolved to take advantage of meat consumption — particularly as we became more human.
But, these tubers were too good for savannah hominids to pass up — sweet tasting, with nutrient density that rivals meat, and a caloric profile that mimics breast milk.
The other thing that occurred to me is that tiger nuts were probably difficult to clean. Paleo man likely just pulled them out of the ground and ate all the copious amounts of dirt that was all over them.
Yeah, I thought the same thing about the dirt eating along with the chufas. I wonder how much benefit all those consumed bugs were to his ability to digest and metabolize the nutrients. Seems it would have had various effects including digesting the large amount of fiber and resistant starch.
Here’s the official Press Release from Oxford on the new report. It summarizes the new findings pretty well.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140109_1.html
And Acorn Starch is apparently a source of RS as well.
http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/element/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-3c02955a-5130-3c85-959d-3dc187f049ad
Duckie, Acorn starch is sold in the Korean supermarket. Wonder how it’s used in their cuisine.
US grown, dried (peeled & unpeeled) can be purch’d here:
http://tigernutsusa.com/tiger-nuts
1 serving = 1/2 oz
In one of the studies, above, they mention some phytates in the skins. And it sounds like the skins can get too hard when dried. Sounds like Nutcracker Man’s offspring eventually discovered the importance of soaking the tiger nuts and thus no longer needed the powerful jaw.
Pat, I don’t think they are US grown. This is from the Tigernutsus.com website
“The Tiger Nuts story totally checks out: they’re from Spain; they grow in the ground; they’re harvested and cleaned by farmers who lay them out to dry in the sun, package them and ship them to us. “
It is not clear whether these nuts are pre-roadted, in which case we have no idea of retrogradation. I have sent them a request for more information, including info on resistant starch in case they have it available. It appears that raw nuts are used to make horchata
The raw chufa nuts are also eaten as snacks according to commenters on Amazon. They have a fair amount of undigestible fiber also it seems. People say they like the mild taste of them but they take a long time to chew and not sure if the remaining fiber is just spit out or swallowed. People say the toughness of chewing them though keeps you from over-consuming them the way that can be common with almonds and other easily chewed (and highly paletable and caloric) nuts.
Lassiter Farms in northeastern North Carolina grows and sells Chufa (tiger nut) tubers for seeds for very good prices if you want a bushel or more:
http://www.cypruskneechufa.com
They are sold for seed but are cleaned nearly to food grade (ideal for dirt consumption?). Truth be told, this farm doesn’t sell them for human consumption and I don’t even think the farmer eats them. Chufas/tiger nuts are mostly used as Turkey feed on lands where they want the roaming turkeys to dig them up and get fattened. Here’s an interesting account of growing/eating them from the seeds from that farm:
http://www.mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener/Summer2013/Chufa/tabid/2606/Default.aspx
He prob dug them up after a period of rain and found them much easier to consume.
@DD, you and Tater… its funny, your dialog about Tigernuts is a replay of exactly my discoveries a couple weeks ago. I sent an email to Tim about them at that time. Very, very interesting, especially how they may have been a big part of the ancestral diet. Also the fat makeup in the chufa tuber… If I remember correctly a good portion of it is MUFA. I also think I read in one article that Chufa nuts were eaten by the ancient Egyptians and were found in some of their tombs.
Another recent discovery of mine was an ancient grain called “Teff”. And although it’s interesting that the Egyptians also ate Teff, and it’s high nutrient content, it’s very unlikely that Paleo man ate it due to it’s tiny size (think Chia seeds) and difficulty in gathering and preparing/eating. Then there is the grain anti-nutrients and a the lack of RS present in Chufa. Hence, I have quite a bit of interest in finding and trying out preparing and eating Chufa. Not sure if I can find it near me though and mail order may be too expensive here.
I remembered those convo’s but sadly didn’t look into it very hard. Glad this all got re-hashed!
So let me get this straight. You guys came across one of the greatest Paleo discoveries — early hominids feasting on starchy RS tubers and its connection to an ancestral Old World starchy prebiotic beverage — and you forgot to tell everyone?!
Thanks a lot guys. ;)
But, seriously. This all fits in very well into explaining how cooking unlocked more calories and coincided with larger brains, as explained in this TED Talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/suzana_herculano_houzel_what_is_so_special_about_the_human_brain.html
And any leftovers would have afforded RS3 to boot!
hmmm. not really sold if it was the cooking that made our brain bigger and much smarter. maybe more of the o3 when our ancient ancestors was forced to the ocean to get most of our food during the ice age which almost wipe us out.
One of the things I think is so interesting about the Chufa/Tigernut tuber besides the historical context, and potential RS content, is it’s nutrient makeup… not only protein but the oil in it. Seems very much like a cross between a modern traditional starchy tuber and a ground nut (peanut). I can see why/how some of our ancestors could have subsisted on them in between successful hunts, perhaps combined with other starchy roots/tubers.
“In reference to its lipid content, tiger nut tuber contains a 22-26% of its weight in lipids. Tiger nut oil resembles singularly to olive oil, since oleic acid predominates in it, (with more than 73% of the total of their fatty acids), and has similar proportions of Palmitic and stearic acids, 10% in total (the same as soybean and sunflower oils which, on the other hand, have between 25-40% of oleic acid), and around 11% of linoleic acid (which on the other hand is more than 50% of soya or sunflower oil), as it is the case with olive oil. This composition is ideal from the medical point of view, since the oleic is a fatty monounsaturated acid, which reduces the global cholesterol at the expense of the cholesterol-LDL, increases the cholesterol-HDL, and contributes to the reduction of triglycerides, which does not happen with the polyunsaturated such as the Linoleic acid.”
http://tigernutsusa.com/health-benefits-more
Amazon comments …
“I had been getting these nuts sent from West Africa (at great expense) not realizing they were available here under the name Chufa nuts instead of Tiger nuts, because i have been having stomach issues. I soak these nuts overnight, eat a handful daily, and now dont need to take “softeners” nor magnesium. They taste like almond/coconut mixed, i love the taste, yes i eat them for snacks and swallow it thereby getting all the fibre content and drink lots of water, my stomach is grateful.”
“I am a huge fan of these nuts, and have been eating them since childhood. I was glad to discover these on Amazon. My wife remarked that these Spanish nuts are not as sweet as West African tiger nuts, but I hardly noticed a difference. Chock full of fiber, crunchy, and pleasant to consume. I highly recommend these.”
“I eat them warmed up- love the taste. Try it; they are easy to put in your purse and snack on..”
http://www.amazon.com/Oro-Alboraya-Spanish-Horchata-pounds/dp/B006VFZVEI
Looks like they have a peeled and non-peeled version of tigernuts. Hopefully the peeled version is just a quick steaming to remove the skin and does not degrade the RS content too much. I wonder what nutrients and/or anti-nutrients exist in the skin versus the flesh.
http://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Nuts-0003-Supreme-Peeled/dp/B00FSYYPEA/
Nice facebook page by that tigernut/chufa supplier with pic’s, videos, etc., related to Chufa/Tigernuts. Chufa recipes there? Will see…
https://www.facebook.com/tiger.nutsusa
Julie Daniluk, author of Meals That Heal I flammation uses tigernut powder as an ingredient in a nuber of her recipes. i also see it mentioned as an ingredient in some bodybuilding mixes. I am thinking the powde might be available in healthfood stores?
http://www.amazon.com/Meals-that-Heal-Inflammation-Eliminate-ebook/dp/B007FFWT4I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390650748&sr=8-1&keywords=Julie+daniluk
@Adriana, as you prob know, powders may have much less benefits to the raw nut for a variety of reasons – less nutrients, degraded starch, less fiber, easily digested carb’s, etc. As with all processed foods (like potato starch) you then have to do some digging to find out how it is processed to fully know it’s health effects.
So this TigernutUSA company is only 1 year old according to their FB page. I wonder if they will become the “chia seed” of the Paleo movement? I hate that “miracle food” hype thing that Dr. Oz loves to ascribe… the exaggeration that accompanies things like coconut oil, chia seeds, red palm oil, etc. To me that seems to take something away from the real benefits.
TigerNut Flour (TNF): This page says that their TNF is made without heating. If true that would make for a very healthy flour. I think I remember Tatertot posted a raw cookie recipe in the past?… or maybe just wishful thinking. That could make for a very heathy treat using TNF.
From PDF on the below linked page:
“2.2 Production process of the Tigernuts flour
The production process of the Tigernuts Flour it’s quite easy to explain, but
in any case, we would like to show you all the steps by form of a diagram.
The product is harvested from the fields
Cleaning of the product by means of specialised washing machines to
eliminate all rests of soil, dust, stones or insects.
Natural sun drying process to dehydrate the product for conservation.
The product is introduced in a hopper to get milled.
We mill all the product together, skin included, in a hammer’s mill, having
the possibility to determine and separate, product thickness, size, etc..,
allowing to modify depending on the final use, and destination of the
product.
The product is packed in 20 Kg. or 25 Kg. paper bags.”
http://www.tigernuts.com/tigernuts_flour.html
” I think I remember Tatertot posted a raw cookie recipe in the past?… or maybe just wishful thinking. ”
Not wishful thinking, it was over on the MDA theead. It is basically the Neatle’s tollhpuse recipe subbing potato starch for the flour and paleo-izing other ingredients, which I assume means replacing the sugar with honey or another suitable sweetener. And to correct, TaterTot eats this raw, as dough, not baked into cookies.
A recent review of the Chufa/T-nuts. They talk about a very large amount of chewing you have to do with them when whole/raw…
“It’s healthy and satisfies hunger pangs without consuming a lot of them. Maybe it’s because our brain is tricked into thinking were eating a 5 course meal with all the chewing going on!”
http://www.glutenfreedigest.org/2013/11/08/our-latest-taste-test-is-here-tiger-nuts-seriously-healthy-snack-food/
Maybe @DuckDodgers already posted this. But this was the article that first tipped me off to Chufa/T-nuts a couple weeks ago…
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/01/10/real-caveman-diet-research-shows-ancient-man-feasted-mainly-on-tiger-nuts/
Found just one interesting T-nut comment on PaleoHacks…
“Today I made horchata (soaked chufas + water) it came out great, already sweet on its own, no added sugar at all!!
I used the ground chufas (the leftover from straining the horchata) to make pancakes, they were awesome too! :)
A couple more Chufa/T-nut products…
Organic Flour: http://ecoideas.ca/govindatigernut-flour.html
Organic cream/spread: http://ecoideas.ca/govindatigernut-creamcreamy-vanilla-tigernut-spread.html
I really enjoyed the Podcast with Tim, Richard and Angelo. I’m trying the potato starch thing but it’s only been 4 days so far to notice any differences in blood sugar or general wellbeing.
I tried the cold potatoes idea though and wow, does that shoot my blood sugar readings sky-high!
I cooked them, let them cool and had them in the refrigerator for 16 hours before eating them cold in a salad with a copped boiled egg, a couple of small unsmoked bacon rashers plus some onion salt and a dab of mayo’.
Potatoes, hot and cold, have always wrecked my blood sugar. I’ll keep the hell away from them for sure now.
I’ll try cold rice and see what happens there.
For the last year the only carbs that I get have been vegetables and small amounts of white rice.
I cut out all wheat and grains and potatoes and do not miss them at all.
I get plenty of fat from animals, raw aged cheese, double cream and coconut oil, eat hardly any fruit apart from a few blueberries.
I can honestly say that my insulin injections have not gone down in the slightest. I haven’t lost weight apart from an initial 3kg but stayed steed at 85kg (I’m 5′ 11″) with a BMI of 27.
I’m desperate to try things that will work and so am having a go at the Perfect Health Diet – with little signs to show for it (it’s only been 2 months).
: (
@DavidH, you might want to try intermittent fasting and see if it provides any positive effects. Try both the 16/8 “leangains” style (16 hour fast, 8 hour feed window) and a once or twice per week single day 24h fast. I prefer 16/8 but others prefer 24h fasts.
My diet is very similar to yours. I am not (yet) on insulin. The PS did drop my fasting, but I am not having good post prandial readings after eating starches. I tried the cooked and cooled potato, and the blood sugar spike was perhaps a little bit lower than it would have been without PS, but not enough for me to be able to reintroduce starchy foods into my diet in any decent amount.
Richard:
At Tim’s suggestion, I wrote up a summary of my findings on Tiger nuts, the original Paleo food.
I formatted it into HTML for you so that it can easily be dropped into WordPress if you would like to post it:
You can download the HTML here:
I have a feeling that this post is going to be a game changer for the ancestral-diet community.
Richard, use the HTML link above if you want to post it. In the meantime, here’s what I wrote up for anyone who wants to read/check it:
——————-
A new paper from Oxford University, published earlier this month, hypothesizes that between 1.2 – 2.3 million years ago, early human ancestors survived mainly on a tiny starchy tuber that has twice as much starch as a potato and a fat profile that is similar to olive oil. The tuber (Cyperus esculentus) is a wild weed found in Africa, and is commonly called: tigernut, chufa sedge, nut grass, yellow nutsedge, tigernut sedge, or earth almond. But, again, this is no nut — it’s a very starchy tuber.
According to the author of the paper, Dr. Gabriele A. Macho:
Tigernut tubers have a low glycemic index and a Resistant Starch level that is similar to that of maize. But with twice the starch of a potato, it would appear that Paleo man consumed a healthy portion of Resistant Starch.
The wild and weedy tigernut tuber of Africa, was among the first crops to be cultivated by man, at least since the 4th millennium BC in Egypt, and later for centuries in Southern Europe
From Wikipedia:
And here’s where the entire ancestral health community can all meet in one delicious prebiotic beverage called “Horchata de Chufa” that is eerily similar to Tim Steele’s “potato starch in water”.
From a study on the properties and applications of tiger nuts:
But, wait. It gets even better:
Yes. A prebiotic starchy beverage that helps cure flatulence.
So, Just how old is this starchy prebiotic beverage? According to Wikipedia:
Not only did Paleo man gorge on these starchy tubers. And not only did he consume healthy portions of Resistant Starch. But, Tim “Tatertot” Steele’s own Potato Starch mixed in water concoction is reminiscent of an ancestral prebiotic raw starchy beverage that has been enjoyed for a very, very long time.
As for nutrition and health benefits…
Yep. Tiger nut tubers are safe for diabetics, have been shown to reduce colon cancer, are a good source of prebiotics, have a low glycemic index, and has even been shown to help with insulin resistance and metabolic disorders
The tubers are gluten free, have no traces of nut allergens (despite their name) and have the power to unite the entire ancestral health community.
For those who want to get an idea of what these tiny tubers looked like, and what they were like to grow, here is a good resource.
REFERENCES:
(Free access to all references)
Baboon Feeding Ecology Informs the Dietary Niche of Paranthropus boisei
Tiger Nut (Cyperus esculentus) Commercialization: Health Aspects, Composition, Properties, and Food Applications
Physicochemical and Binder Properties of Starch Obtained from Cyperus esculentus
Effect of Regular Consumption of Tiger Nut (Cyperus Esculentus) on Insulin Resistance and Tumor Necrosis Factor-Alpha in Obese Type 2 Diabetic Egyptian Women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranthropus_boisei
I read for making the horchata you should soak the chufa for 12-14 hours, even one said 24 hours. So much more than the 8 hours reported here. I wonder if it depends on if they are fresh, dried, or the variety?
Duck:
Linkie no workie
How about this?
http://www.filedropper.com/tigernuts
chufa/t-nut kefir is an interesting idea… fermenting the horchata (tigernut milk) using milk kefir grains. I bet it would work well given the natural sugars in the chufa. I’d try this in a heartbeat if I could only get my hands on some chufa.
I my web plowing I sqw refernces to it being grown in brazil….if you find some, here’s your recipe:
http://en.chufadevalencia.org/ver/295/TIGERNUT-FROM-VALENCIA-YOGURT.html
@Adriana, thanks. But I’m hoping that there is enough sugar in the horchata without needing to add extra sugar. I’ll have to test it out though. If the natural sugar content is close to that of cow milk it should be enough.
Another that struck me about tiger nuts is that they are said to be sweet. We evolved a craving for sweet tastes, but conventional wisdom is that this is some kind of fatal flaw of ours (exploited by big food). But, I can’t help but wonder if this innate and primal craving for sweets was at least partially influenced by a history of tiger nuts — as well as fruits, honey and carbs in general.
It’s fun to think that tiger nuts might have been like candy to an early Paleo man.
And the sweetness of tiger nuts got me thinking about the natural inclination for kids to crave carbs and sweets. You never hear much about the kids’ diets when Paleolithic diet reports are written. As Jaminet pointed out in the PHD, toddlers and kids need a lot of carbs/fat and only a little bit of protein — as evident by the makeup of breast milk (7% of calories from protein, Carbs are about 38% and fats about 55%.).
The tiger nut would have satisfied a kids macronutrient ratio pretty well — premasticated by the adults, of course.
Only downside I’m seeing to tiger nuts is that one study found some (Pb) lead in them. I assume that would depend on where they were grown.