Let me make no bones about it. I’m a fan of jimmy moore. Why? It’s very simple. He helps a lot of people and he gets the word out from literally hundreds of others who help people too—both from his blog and podcast (I’ve been a 2-time guest myself). I’m not a perfect as enemy of the good kinda guy…and babies need a good drying off and cuddle after a bath.
I’d go so far as to say that in the early days (2007/8), for me, Jimmy’s podcast was the absolute most varied sources of information on an important health theme that I could find; which, in those days, was primarily focussed on the angelization of saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet as a means of counteracting the CW demonization of same.
Then he embraced paleo. To me, that meant more, varied information. His podcast became even more interesting and complete. Others saw it differently, but I never gave a care to that. They’re just stoopid and short sighted, worried about what, I have no clue.
At the same time, I have never backed off from stating my disagreements with Jimmy. Done it a few times. Couldn’t take his chocolate cake/protein comparison, so there’s this: “Protein is the New Carbohydrate,” and Why to Ditch the Low-Carb Catechism (Sorry Jimmy). There’s maybe a couple of others—far ‘moore’ where I’ve defended him—but even Jimmy has noted that I never attack him personally. I never will. To me, his accomplishments far outweigh his errors, difficulties and troubles along the way.
I have my own glass house.
OK, so I think he just dismissed the issue of resistant starch out-of-hand, and probably because of the word “starch.” I began a Twitter exchange with him here.
@livinlowcarbman If you didn’t see this, Jimmy… bit.ly/IF8bNY
@livinlowcarbman … This one too: bit.ly/18rTyXQ
You can just hit that first tweet link and scan forward for relevant tweets and replies over the next day or so. Some thought I was a bit tough on Jimmy, but they were ignorant of our long history. I respect Jimmy enough to not coddle him. I value his work enough to give it a shot in making him take this seriously.
Basically, what I got back from Jimmy was ‘yea, saw it, interesting, keep it up, etc.’ Dismissal—I know it when I see it. I went at him again, a few hours later.
@livinlowcarbman too many comments to draw attention too, but here’s one bit.ly/IQ3vEg
My story is similar to all of the others. Both the insulin sensitivity and dreams. I had a plate full of mashed potatoes last night for the first time in a long time. My BS never made it above 156. Unbelievable considering a cup of rice would normally send me well above 200. I too have very deep sleep and very vivid dreams. As a bonus I have now had 2 very lucid dreams. If you don’t know about lucid dreams they are a trip. Very fun (for me).
Turns out that really kicked it off. No need to copy it here. Just hit this link and you can see some of the tweet stream. To my point…Jimmy, to me, exposes the ignorance that has caused him, so far, to dismiss resistant starch. In one, he tweets that he ‘doesn’t have a resistant starch deficiency.’ Actually, no human does. It’s resistant to our digestion. It’s the trillions of gut bacteria numbering 10 times the cells in our body—and responsible for all sorts of metabolic, immunologic, inflammatory, auto-immune, hormonal processes and balancing acts of all—that have the deficiency. Moreover, per se and a priori, an Atikns modeled Low Carbohydrate Diet is the most nutrient deficient diet for our gut biome on the entire planet.
This point is inarguable, save perhaps for the Anorexic Diet, or the New Bulimic Discovery. They—our gut bugs—require resistant starches…not just fibers from leaves, flowers, and FODMAPS.
Here’s his tweet that exposed the fact that I was dealing, still, not with disagreement primarily (it’s derivative), but ignorance.
Moore wrong than a very wrong thing
Moreover, this exposes a very deep problem with the Low Carbohydrate advocates in the very general. Let’s flow with the logic.
- low-carb has proven to be a great intervention for a lot of people generally, and even therapeutically. In realms of neurologic disorders (such a seizures, epilepsy, etc.) and even cancers, ketogenic diets show a low of upside potential. And everyone knows about the weight loss up to the point of stalling 20-40 pounds from goal.
- Atkins was a start, but it was entirely focussed initially on a macro, and not food quality. Hence, all the typical junk food—virtuous only in its lowness in a single evil (carbohydrate).
- paleo and WAPF influences have had a profound impact on LCers in terms of food quality, and Jimmy has done his part in being nudged that way. Yea, I know: he ought just get all principled and not worry about his house, car, and other payment obligations while nobody sends him checks and only heckles, but I get it. “Idealists” never do. They’re the ones sitting on nice fat trust funds—not Jimmy.
- The gut biome is new science…still, and for a long time to come. Thinking back to 2007-11, metabolism was the whole enchilada. Now, we are discovering that macros are very ugly stepchildren, and that the trillions of critters in our gut constitute complex relationships we are only just now beginning to not begin to understand.
- They share in our food, which affects their antagonism and balance with each other, but they also have their own food. Resistant starch is one that’s exclusively for them. We don’t digest it.
- But resistant starch is largely only found in taboo foods for low carbers. They can supplement, eat tons of grams of RS from potato starch and it won’t even knock them out of ketosis, but it’s from taboo potatoes and other no-nos that violate a catechism of their own choosing.
- They have a serious dilemma. Already, I get the valid argument that supplementing potato starch is to supplement a processed food (it’s very minimally processed, but that’s a different subject). So, just as LCers embrace Real Food—except starchy ones—we come up with a processed supplement that does not affect their LC status at all.
- They are at once in the pickle of re-embarcing something processed, that comes from taboo potatoes or to make it even worse, having to consider dropping strict LC by adopting cooked & cooled rice, beans and potatoes—which are the highest modern dietary sources of resistant starch—though they’re always welcome to chow down on tree bark and cattail pollen, both high in RS, and prevalent in coprolite studies.
- Or, they get to close their eyes, put hands over their ears and yell lalalalala…
- Is that about it?
I got into this with Jimmy not for blog post fodder, though that’s fine and part of the process, but to admonish him to take a very close look. It is not at all that resistant starch is driving this. It’s that science concerning “the other 90% of us” is making us all very ignorant at best, exposing every stupidity, at even better. We simply know that resistant starch feeds the critters, and the evidence is that the beneficial ones feed preferentially and can themselves keep the bad ones in check.
Authorities are going to be kicked in the teeth for years, maybe decades to come over this. My prediction. …They were all looking at human metabolism, organic chemical reactions within a mere microcosm of the whole bio-ecosystem that includes 90% more cells, where they all have unknown chemical and hormonal influence, and where their makeup and balance, one-to-another, is very near incomprehensible.
I daresay that every new discovery and understanding concerning the infinitely complex relationships in our gut sets back our bro-science hubris years, perhaps decades.
I’m certainly humbled, but then I love to be wrong more than I love to be right.
…So next time some authority is waxing on about brain, muscle, organ, bone and other tissue cells and acting as though they have a complete picture, asks yourself if they have accounted for the other trillions of cells with receptors and that “poop” chemicals. Ask them further if they understand that every human is a snowflake, that every gut biome is different.
Then ask them how quickly humans can alter their mix of muscle cells and fibers; say, from slow twitch to fast twitch, etc? Once you get an answer, show them this:
Gut Bacteria Rapidly Changes With Diet: Gut Microbiome More Sensitive Than Previously Believed
In his latest research, conducted with a team of colleagues and published in Nature, David explored the ways and time frame in which diet might alter the community structure and activity of the microorganisms lingering within our intestinal tracts. This microbial presence is key to human health because it carries out digestive processes that our bodies cannot. […]
The scientists observed that the microbial activity taking place in participants’ guts mirrored differences between herbivorous and carnivorous mammals. For instance, the diet based exclusively on animal products contributed to the most dramatic changes in the bacterial community, inspiring growth of 22 species, among them bile-tolerant microorganisms (Alistipes, Bilophila wadsworthia, and Bacteroides). The animal-based diet also decreased the levels of Firmicutes, including Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale, and Ruminococcus bromii, which are necessary to metabolizing complex carbohydrates typically found in plants. Meanwhile, just three bacterial species came to prominence during the periods participants consumed only plant-based foods.
“In concert, these results demonstrate that the gut microbiome can rapidly respond to altered diet, potentially facilitating the diversity of human dietary lifestyles,” the authors wrote in their study.
What surprised the researchers most was the speed at which these changes could take place. “The relative abundance of various bacteria species looked like it shifted within a day after the food hit the gut,” David told NPR. Even more, the bacteria started to change their behavior after about three days on each diet. David added, “The kind of genes turned on in the microbes changed in both diets.”
I have the full text and it’s way too much to quote. So here’s the punchline(s).
Our findings that the human gut microbiome can rapidly switch between herbivorous and carnivorous functional profiles may reflect past selective pressures during human evolution. Consumption of animal foods by our ancestors was probably volatile, depending on season and stochastic foraging success, with readily available plant foods offering a fall-back source of calories and nutrients21. Microbial communities that could quickly, and appropriately, shift their functional repertoire in response to diet change would have subsequently enhanced human dietary flexibility. Examples of this flexibility may persist today in the form of the wide diversity of modern human diets11.
But, perhaps a truly omnivorous approach is called for, and I don’t just mean LowCarber leaves and flowers.
Finally, we found that microbiota changes on the animal-based diet could be linked to altered faecal bile acid profiles and the potential for human enteric disease. Recent mouse experiments have shown that high- fat diets lead to increased enteric deoxycholic concentrations (DCA); this secondary bile acid is the product of microbial metabolism and pro- motes liver cancer26. In our study, the animal-based diet significantly increased the levels of faecal DCA (Fig. 5a). Expression of bacterial genes encoding bile salt hydrolases, which are prerequisites for gut microbial production of DCA27, was also significantly higher on the animal-based diet (Fig. 5b). Elevated DCA levels, in turn, may have contributed to the microbial disturbances on the animal-based diet, as this bile acid can inhibit the growth of members of the Bacteroidetes and Firmicutes phyla28.
Mouse models have also provided evidence that inflammatory bowel disease can be caused by B. wadsworthia, a sulphite-reducing bacterium whose production of H2S is thought to inflame intestinal tissue6. Growth of B. wadsworthia is stimulated in mice by select bile acids secreted while consuming saturated fats from milk. Our study provides several lines of evidence confirming that B. wadsworthia growth in humans can also be promoted by a high-fat diet. First, we observed B. wadsworthia to be a major component of the bacterial cluster that increased most while on the animal-based diet (cluster 28; Fig. 2 and Supplementary Table 8). This Bilophila-containing cluster also showed significant positive correlations with both long-term dairy (P , 0.05; Spearman correlation) and baseline saturated fat intake (Supplementary Table 20), supporting the proposed link to milk-associated saturated fats . Second, the animal-based diet led to significantly increased faecal bile acid concentrations (Fig. 5c and Extended Data Fig. 9). Third, we observed significant increases in the abundance of microbial DNA and RNA encoding sulphite reductases on the animal-based diet (Fig. 5d, e). Together, these findings are consistent with the hypothesis that diet- induced changes to the gut microbiota may contribute to the development of inflammatory bowel disease. More broadly, our results emphasize that a more comprehensive understanding of diet-related diseases will benefit from elucidating links between nutritional, biliary and microbial dynamics.
Not enough?
Get that? Butyrate? Eat all the butter you like. It’s not how butyrate ought be formed. The abstract.
Abstract
INTRODUCTION: Obesity is linked to type 2 diabetes and risk factors associated to the metabolic syndrome. Consumption of dietary fibres has been shown to have positive metabolic health effects, such as by increasing satiety, lowering blood glucose and cholesterol levels. These effects may be associated with short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), particularly propionic and butyric acids, formed by microbial degradation of dietary fibres in colon, and by their capacity to reduce low-grade inflammation.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate whether dietary fibres, giving rise to different SCFAs, would affect metabolic risk markers in low-fat and high-fat diets using a model with conventional rats for 2, 4 and 6 weeks.
MATERIAL AND METHODS: Conventional rats were administered low-fat or high-fat diets, for 2, 4 or 6 weeks, supplemented with fermentable dietary fibres, giving rise to different SCFA patterns (pectin – acetic acid; guar gum – propionic acid; or a mixture – butyric acid). At the end of each experimental period, liver fat, cholesterol and triglycerides, serum and caecal SCFAs, plasma cholesterol, and inflammatory cytokines were analysed. The caecal microbiota was analysed after 6 weeks.
RESULTS AND DISCUSSION: Fermentable dietary fibre decreased weight gain, liver fat, cholesterol and triglyceride content, and changed the formation of SCFAs. The high-fat diet primarily reduced formation of SCFAs but, after a longer experimental period, the formation of propionic and acetic acids recovered. The concentration of succinic acid in the rats increased in high-fat diets with time, indicating harmful effect of high-fat consumption. The dietary fibre partly counteracted these harmful effects and reduced inflammation. Furthermore, the number of Bacteroides was higher with guar gum, while noticeably that of Akkermansia was highest with the fibre-free diet.
~~~
Ok yea, rat study. Not human. Right? Or, was it mostly a gut bacteria study, bacteria we both share? Eh? Eh?
Eh?
Up for a quickie?
Microbes in the Gut Help Determine Risk of Tumors
Transferring the gut microbes from a mouse with colon tumors to germ-free mice makes those mice prone to getting tumors as well, according to the results of a study published in mBio®, the online open-access journal of the American Society for Microbiology. The work has implications for human health because it indicates the risk of colorectal cancer may well have a microbial component.
I feel ignorant just when it was all figured out. How about you? How comforting to have it all figured out, but I find ignorance far more exciting. I’m just too curious for my own good and “paleo” was getting so boring. Yep, nuthin’ wrong with fat, plenty of meat and such. But I find myself with a level of excitement I haven’t had for years. Can you tell?
…I’m reminded of Art De Vany, again. Somewhere along the line he talked about the vast variety of food that was probably consumed. Out of necessity, no doubt. So to me, the question arises: are our gut bugs an evolutionary result of an enormous variety of foods, animal and plant, including tubers, barks, pollen and other things?
…And I prefer this follow-on question to the more obvious one of “have we adapted to them as well”:
Are we dependent upon their wide flourishing, for more optimal health?
If the answer to that is yes, then it basically means that carnivory, low-carb, vegetarianism and veganism are all out the window. But it also means that omnivory must be taken very seriously. Fortunately, it’s not that hard. A good start might be to pick a half dozen different food cultures from around the world and either learn about, source and cook their foods or, if you live in an urban area, eat ethnic almost always when you go out.
…Which reminds me. I haven’t been to that Ethiopian place in a while, had all my food dumped on an injera to eat by hand.
Update: Jimmy has relented. 🙂 He’s put up a fair and open minded post about resistant starch, opening the door for more of his readers to be exposed to its possibilities: What’s All The Fuss About Resistant Starch?
Cody 
Donald Mann 
P 
John 
Ash Simmonds 
sootedninjas 
Great article. And I agree with you. I think Jimmy is missing the bigger picture here. And I have a lot of respect for all of the stuff he’s done.
Also, maybe the easiest thing to do is to just eat seasonally based on where you currently live.
Jimmy has done some good work for the low carb movement but he has a bit of an ego issue!
Enjoying seeing where this is going.
About the Jakobsdottir paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827442/table/pone-0080476-t001/
O6 PUFA-heavy rapeseed oil doesn’t exactly align with Paleo/LC/EvFit/Whatever-flavor kind of eating for quality fat sources. That could be an inflammatory confounder. Likewise almost 30% of the energy coming from CHO.
@Michael
Only for those who desire confusion and panacea over clarity and understanding. My only argument has ever been that RS is essential.
The solution is simple. Get both. I have FOS and add a scoop in now & then. Increases the fartage, but that’s OK.
Jesus Fucking Christ, already.
Richard, what particular scFOS do you lean towards?
I’m thinking 2 TBSP of raw honey chaser after my PS tonic. I’ll see how it plays out from there.
@plat
Not diamonds? I’ve got a tub of Syontix.
I’ve also dabbled in raw honey but given it’s like the Hadza’s favorite food, I got a new jar from TJs and am just going to have to try. Kefir, PS, raw honey with a bit of raw milk for thinning purposes is irresistible.
BTW, took 4 whole TBS of PS last night in a pint of a milk kefir mix (it’s actually delicious and I love the texture). Ate pretty big during the day. But since then, about 9PM, it’s now 4:10 PM the next day and am just beginning to feel the slightest bit of hunger pang.
“Overdosing” PS might just be a real magic bullet weight loss hack. Hell, one might even call it fasting. YOU are fasting, but feeding your critters.
Just speculation over how much we thought we knew, but didn’t.
@BreakingBad
“which I’m pretty sure is Richard’s point”
You have that exactly right, sir. That study was simply opened in a tab and I tossed it out. I think I have full text around but the point was larger.
I suspect that a wholly omnivorous diet of natural foods is going to be best. Yet, we have seen remarkable anecdotes by LCers who have been able to lower FBG and blunt spikes when eating starches.
Jimmy doesn’t know it, though I’ve tried to convert it, but I’m trying to help him get on the first bus out of town because he has a big influence and so far, nobody has been harmed by this.
I’m firmly convinced that RS is a huge deal. Not the whole deal, there are other prebiotics too, and some do some things, others do other things, which to me spells mass omnivory, purposefully so. There’s also hermetic effects which haven’t even been discussed. Dose makes the poison. One amount kills you, a trace amount is beneficial. We can’t possibly understand all of this with resolution, but really varied omnivory seems to me to be the best strategy in our ignorance, mostly because we’re not going to know what we’re missing until it’s to late.
Great work Richard. I’m currently doing my own N=1 run with resistant starch based on your observations. Adding in daily about 4tbs with my preworkout protein shake (using pure Red Mill “unmodified” potato starch). I intend to give my gut flora a good two to three week acclimation on this regimen before doing some daily BG monitoring and then conducting one of Chris Kresser’s white rice challenges although historically I haven’t had an issues with gluc control. However, paleo has put me into low insulin resistance over the last year or so; not unexpected.
The David paper is fascinating and confirms my previous suspicions on rapid effects of diet on the gut microbiome. As one of the original crew on the NIH HMP-1 (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19819907 ), I find this to be a very timely confirmation. I am, however, suspicious of any rodent study. Mice are herbivores and any lab strain can go diabetic when put on a high fat diet. Better to just cut the crap (no pun intended) and go with real controlled human studies along the lines of what Peter Attia is hoping to do with NuSI. It should be a fun ride.
livinlavidalowbifido
Probably not worth having a Paleo fight to the death, as I’d rather see you guys cooperating than fighting. But you could always challenge him to a poo fight — and by that I mean you both submit samples to the American Gut Project and see who’s gut is in better shape 🙂
Poo fight!
@Duck
Jimmy is very, very afraid of all this.
I’m trying to help him get ahead of it. In the end, extremes at either end are dead. Purposeful omnivory is going to be where our “other 90%” lead us.
I’m pretty good at detecting fear. Jimmy is afraid of this. Recall how quickly he took up the Safe Starch deal. Why? He had a safe haven. It spikes BG, unequivocally. RS is a starch you can take any amount of, it won’t touch BG, it will moderate FBG, it will blunt spikes and it will ENHANCE ketosis by returning you to that state faster should you indulge in sugar/starch.
Jimmy is smart, and thus, afraid.
So, basically, Jimmy will avoid protein because it can potentially raise blood glucose like a carbohydrate, but when a certain type of carbohydrate can lower a glucose spike from all foods, even protein, and won’t have any effect on blood glucose when eaten by itself, it must be avoided also?
A while back I mentioned a show on the discovery channel about a guy surviving on an island by himself. He ate a lot of potatoes to survive.
My guess is that this was a regular part of the gatherer-hunter way of life.
I can’t find an English version but I did find a German and Spanish version.
He slices taro/potato into thin slices and leaves them out in the sun.
Fast forward to the 37:50 minute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-17Zo4WrH_0
At the 12:00 minute mark he shows how he started farming potatoes
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13aduj_ed-stafford-solo-en-la-isla-3-final_sport
I know. I totally agree. I was just having some fun — I don’t think you should have a “poo fight”. We already know he wouldn’t stand a chance. But I believe you are right about how concerned he must be about having to defend his “brand”.
However, I think that What you and Tim have stumbled upon is bigger than either you, Jimmy or even Paleo for that matter. Therefore, I think you may need to bring Jimmy on board gently and not in public. If you do it in public, he’ll go into defense mode and his readers who bought into LC will just go into defense mode. Have a beer with him in private (his can be low carb) and walk him through what this could mean for millions of people.
This is bigger than all of us. So, when I look at RS, I think of how it can bridge the full spectrum of Paleo together — not divide it into camps.
@Dwayne
I hear you. I’m usually very loath to cite anything from mice or rats.
But thanks for otherwise acknowledging. Big fan of Peter. We had dinner perhaps a year ago. Big supporter of NuSi. Loved his TED talk, too.
@John
Yep.
@Duck
Too late. I don’t do back channel unless it’s for a particular reason particular to me, and this does not qualify.
Jimmy immediately took up the “Safe Starches” deal, because he had a safe haven (BG spikes and all LCers are deathly afraid of them). Here, there is no such haven.
I’m not being mean, just very direct. I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t have a very deep appreciation for Jimmy and what he does, at base.
I’m just glad I never got my own self locked into something that at a point, even though essentially wrong or very incomplete, is required for my livelihood. That’s unfortunate and I’m sure LC will live on, but without integrating the micro biome that loves and thrives on carbs, it’s going to be relegated to an intervention and not a lifestyle.
Yeah, I agree. Jimmy basically locked himself into a brand that is basically a hole in the ground. Hard to change the domain name at this point. Livinlavidasomecarbs just doesn’t have the same ring to it. His readers are the ones who suffer though.
I remember seeing that video of the Safe Starches Panel from AHS. Jimmy ends up looking like an unintentionally-biased moderator and then allows Rosedale to go on a 10-minute rant about how “safe starches” are some kind of danger that needs to be exposed as a health risk. There was a moment towards the end of the video (58:10) where Jaminet has been silenced and pushed out of the conversation while Rosedale talks down to everyone. If you watch closely, you can see Kresser and Jaminet turn to each other and raise their eyebrows as if to say, “what the f*ck is going on here?” The whole thing seemed to be engineered to protect the low carb brand and dismiss safe starches.
You guys do know that Jimmy has euthyroid hypothyroid symptoms? He could possibly be helped by all this. But the low carb movement is actually bigger than Jimmy. Jimmy can bank on people like Rosedale, Shanahan, Westman, Perlmutter, Attia, Feynman, etc. These are MD/Ph.D.s. All these guys are clueless on the gut microbiome. But there is a larger implication for all this. Low-carbism is premised on 2 benefits: weight loss and blood sugar control. This is the one-sided view of health promoted by low-carbing: not only you would lose weight but maintain blood sugar. And they end up overreaching, claiming that blood sugar control is all-important. It’s important but not all-important. You think there is a cholesterol mafia? There is also a blood sugar mafia. The mafiosos are Rosedale, Feynman, Perlmutter, etc. who believe in the insulin theory of chronic and degenerative diseases like CVD, cancer, neurodegenerative diseases, etc. If your BG ever rises above 110, you trigger these risks.
You know what the LC movement is afraid of? I won’t beat around the bushes. I’ll tell you the real reason for the fear. It is the fear that LCism will implode because of its association with gut dysbiosis which a VLC diet induces. Some of the side-effects of long-term VLCing have been well documented and enough people have experienced them that you cannot deny them blanketly anymore.
The fear is that VLCing/ketoing will be implicated in gut dysbiosis, which has recently been demonstrated to lead to immune dysregulation, especially the onset of autoimmune diseases. Those cold finger and toes are not just hypothyroid; they’re really Raynaud’s. If you have close relatives suffering from Rheumatoid Arthritis and Hashimoto’s, there is a real chance that your Raynaud’s is really secondary, that is a full-blown autoimmune disease is right around the corner, as Raynaud’s heralds autoimmunity which could stay latent for 5-10 years. That’s real fear, folks. And even good Richard hasn’t grasped the full implication of all this. The fear is not just regarding blood sugar; it’s regarding the growing realization that low-carbing just might be inimical to health.
Lucid dreams aren’t caused by having resistant starch in your bum, it’s a case of maintaining a semi-coherent mindset whilst drifting into unconsciousness. I’ve been researching and practising lucid dreaming for 20+ years, mega fascinating and exciting subject.
The only real effect diet can have is what it does to your sleep patterns and alpha/theta/REM/etc states, which of course any significant change in your diet can spur on by hormonal signalling changes.
Here’s the best ROI methodology for achieving LD I’ve come up with (sadly it’s typically unavailable to an alcohol-induced sleeper):
* set alarm for 3 hours before you have to get up, so usually just before dawn – I always find the last couple hours of sleep are when it’s easy to go in and out repeatedly and dreams are right there as soon as you enter sleep
* actually wake up properly for at least 15 minutes, go to the loo, get a drink, delete Facebook, whatever
* then go back to bed and read Kindle or watch a youtube documentary or whatever on your phone at the lowest brightness setting available (or find an app that “re-creates” time-appropriate light temperatures), something that makes the brain active but because you’re not fully rested and it’s the optimum time for sleep, it’s kinda like yin/yang forces on your conscious/unconscious
* your arm at a slight elevation (eg laying on your side holding your phone/book up slightly) provides cues for once you start hitting microsleeps, and you can sort of let yourself fall asleep, but remain semi-aware that it’s happening
There’s a period which I call “greying out” where your mind starts slipping to unconscious, and you can feel your arm drop at the same time, this is the big sticky-note for the brain where you have to notice that you’re falling asleep and can sort of remain aware – BUT be careful not to move physically else you’ll completely wake up again.
From there it’s typical to manage only 5-30 seconds of lucidity as the dream world unfolds, things sort of become weird and you can tell you’re going to lose lucidity as it becomes tunnel vision – you’ll either fall into complete unconscious sleep/dreaming or wake up again. If you wake up, don’t move one iota, not even an eyelid – you can often easily fall back to sleep but remain aware within 30 seconds.
I’ve got a lot more on this subject but I’m sure I’ve bored you to sleep already. :p My main thing is I want to write a book on this stuff but completely separate it from the mystical/spritual bullshit it’s typically encompassed by.
@Spanish Caravan
Good points. The hole is even bigger than I imagined.
Oh BTW for anyone interested, that method above is my version of what’s known a WILD – Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming, go ahead and google that for more info.
@Ron ‘Poo fight!’
Richard’s comments section needs a thumbs up option. 😉
@duck
I was in person for that panel and have has zero interest in Rosedale ever since. Nobody really cares anyway. Jimmy is more influential.
@ash
I don’t think you get it, man. Fine all those techniques and yea, there are those times in a half sleep state where I can write prose in my head that amaze me and I could never do consciously.
Thing is, and this is confirmed by dozens of comments from different people, 2-4 T before bed, and it happens with no effort beyond that, and so remarkably so. I did 4T last night, had some amazing, amazing complex dreams.
So very many have reported similarly. One commenter gets x-rated. I only had a few of those so far but it is a feeling as though you are literally having sex, and very sustained. I was surprised my shorts weren’t wet once I woke up.
Duck, the hole is actually larger than I described. Someone actually made this connection a while ago. I can’t remember who. But we kind of laughed it off. But now it makes sense. I personally know more than a dozen who developed autoimmune diseases on a low-carb diet. And not all of them are “mere” hypothyroidism or someone with low T3 who became Hashimoto’s later. But more serious diseases like RA, SLE, etc. But that’s only in cases where someone did long-term low-carbing, developed symptoms, and got themselves tested. Most autoimmune diseases are not diagnosed until you develop symptoms. You first develop antibodies, which are signs of autoimmune attack. That attack can go on for as long as 5-10 years before you develop symptoms. How many low-carbers are getting ANA-tested? All they know is TPO/TG.
If I feel good, then I must be healthy. That’s not true. Just like gluten sensitivity, autoimmune attacks proceed stealthily and pathogenesis creeps unawares. That’s why these low-carbers cannot connect the dots.
How did I develop Scleroderma on a VLC diet? How did these food allergies hit me all of a sudden, after I lost 60 lbs. and my A1c is 4.5? Must be genetics and my bad luck, huh?
Once we begin to connect the dots, we will finally realize the magnitude of what we have here. At that point, low-carbing will no longer be tenable and just about anyone associated with the movement will be discredited. That’s not any time soon. That gut microbiome research coming down the pike will need about 5-7 years to be fully digested. It will take that long to connect the dots.
Those confirmations and anecdata come no matter what the diet change, just that there’s a change, go ahead and google [any diet / dreams]. All I can say is trust me, I’m miles ahead on dreamstates and altered consciousness etc, diet and hormonal shifts have a huge effect in “vividacity” but mostly it’s because of actually remembering a dream – almost exclusively at the end of the sleep state (which is where my WILD technique focusses).
Spuds aren’t the cause any more than cholesterol causes CVD etc, but go ahead and combine the efforts of RS and WILD and let us know your results. Actual full LUCID dreams are a far cry from “vivid” dreams – one is like riding the magic bus, the other is driving it.
If it weren’t for my biochemistry geek and neurolinguistic programming underpinnings I’d probably be a Shaman.
Isn’t “lucid” dreaming about learning how to have total control of your dreams? I believe it is supposed to be different from “vivid” dreaming. Sometimes I think it’s better to let your mind go where it wants to go on its own.
Describing lucid dreaming vs remembering a vivid dream is like trying to describe transcendent shagging to someone who’s only seen boobs in a movie.
But Ash, you might want to explore the potential RS link to serotonin and neurotransmitter enhancement before dismissing it. I’ve changed my diet before, all of us have, but this is different. There’s a big gut/brain connection here with RS (basically a missing nutrient) that needs further exploration. You should join in with RS and see if your head explodes into an HD IMAX experience 😉
@ash Astral Projection ?
And Ash, keep in mind that up until a few weeks ago, few people on the planet were ingesting more than a few grams of RS2 in a day. We upped it to like 35g/day.Big difference. This isn’t something you get from just eating a few spuds.
Spanish, what do you do about the Scleroderma?
While I was reading up on low dose Naltrexone, one of the things treated was Scleroderma. I don’t know what to make of this drug because it’s also being used to successfully treat Crohn’s disease. Is it working on the immune system or the gut or both? This drug also improves sleep quality. Not in a wild way but it is noticeable. Helps with neuropathic pain as well.
Hope the plantains working for you.
So we’re going to split hairs on lucid vs. vivid?
I was the first to mention it, and vivid was just the word I came up with at the time.
I’m sorry, Ash, that you feel the need to condescend to people who are loving their sleep and dream states. Perhaps because it was so effortless, kinda perhaps how it out to be naturally, and it costs about 4 bucks a pound?
Personally, I’m more than satisfied and have no interest in diminishing returns. Moreover, I take no stock in dreams, meaning, or anything of the sort. It’s just pure pleasure. Nor do I really wish to control or direct them in any way. I just enjoy being along for the ride, in awe of what my mind seems able to produce in that state.
Gab, LDN is phenomenal. I can’t recommend it highly enough. But my impression is it’s only helpful for clearly antibody-driven autoimmnity like Systemic Scleroderma, SLE, RA, as well as Corhn’s, etc., but not subclinical hypothyroidsm or the low T3 syndrome.
Er, LDN will reset your immune system overnight but it won’t improve sleep quality! It will do exactly the opposite of what RS is doing! If you want vivid nightmares, try LDN! It’s like a mini DMT episode if you’re sensitive to it. You have to be very careful with the dosing. Some people never adjust to their nightly Nightmare on Elm Street! If you want Basic Instinct every night, try RS!
Gab, if you have Scleroderma, you first have to distinguish whether it’s systemic or limited. I am on my toes constantly because of my Raynaud’s. But Systemic Scleroderma is incredibly dangerous. It’s more crippling than MS or Systemic Lupus. Only diligent antibody-testing will uncover exactly what you have.
Keep in mind about 5-15% of the population have Raynauds’. These are primary Raynaud sufferers and for them it is merely an annoynace. Just put your gloves on and use a space heater. However, if you have HLA-B 27 and vulnerable otherwise, you could develop scleroderma or similar autoimmune diseases. That’s why this thing can be scary: Raynaud’s is associated with both forms of scleroderma. Conventional medicine will only test you if you have symptoms. If you have Raynaud’s and you have family history of RA, etc., you should test for ANA-ELISA. That’s also the reason why you should not VLC when your family history includes RA. That immune dysregulation initiated by your gut dysbiosis could trigger Raynaud’s, and the autoimmune cascade could start from there.
Spanish Caravan,
I see you are quite knowledgeable about Scleroderma. After several years of vlc I started to develop cold hands/feet. Difficulty swallowing both liquids and solids and I have sore finger joints esp. my pip joints of my pinky fingers. I am female, early forties.
After testing from my rheumy I had 2 different Scleroderma antibodies come back positive. He said he would take a wait and see approach. I have since turned my diet around to PHD adding back safe starches but wonder what else I should be doing? RS or probiotics? Do you yourself have Scleroderma and if so what has helped you if anything.
“a few spuds.”
Oh you caught that part of the condescension too? I let it slide.
Reminded me of the time a sister in law called my 8 years working and managing dozens of men on 10,00o ton ships in the western pacific, Indian Ocean, and med, in two navies, us and French, a “stint in the navy.”
Yawn. You really can’t fix that sort of thing,
Spanish, I’ve been taking it since July or August. 4.5 mg at bedtime. I know many people report upsetting dreams but that did not happen. Yes, at the beginning, more dreams but they were pleasant (not xrated). Definitely not DMTish.
I was using it for neuropathic pain, left middle back. It actually worked for that.
The Thyroid Madness site claims that it can help low T3 syndrome but I don’t think that’s the problem here. It’s underdosing. I’ll find out on Monday. But if the thyroid issue someone may have is autoimmune driven, then why wouldn’t LDN work?
These days it’s LDN plus RPS.
@RN – I don’t mean to be condescending, just pointing out that vivid =/= lucid, and anyone who’s experienced both will know it’s just silly to even conflate them – like when someone drives a Porsche and thinks it’s amazing but has never been in a Lotus. :p
I’m not even interested in the dietary angle on this one, being able to drive your dreams SOMETIMES (not always, I *love* being an aware passenger) is amazing and endlessly fascinating. Sure there’s all the sexy times you can conjure and flying (well, attempting) and making energy balls out of your palms a la Street Fighter – but when you do it often enough you get to try out auto-socio-experimentation, eg asking your dreamstate NPC’s questions about stuff. Real existential shit, man.
@DD – yeah, I’ve never doubted RS can be beneficial – *especially on a moderate carb diet* – and I don’t detract from that, I’ve even shared potato recipes here on FTA in years gone by (though not cooling or specifically RS etc). Pretty much most of the benefits beyond the butt bacteria angle rely on fatty acid oxidisation, something plentiful for us carnivores. Gut/brain linkage is one of my primary research angles.
I’m going to New Zealand for the next month and likely will have only moderate control over my diet (gf’s family are 7th Day Adventists with a cattle farm – wtf?), but once I return I promise to properly indulge an N=1 RS experiment.
@sootedninjas – It’s been over 2 decades of research and trying for me (re: astral projection), and I feel I’m no closer than when I started. Sadly most people who purport it are crackpots going on about spirituality, I attempt it with science in my gut/brain. I used to meditate a whole bunch back in the 90’s and took on Discordianism as the closest thing I can imagine to a sane religion. My favourite method is to pre-decide a specific location/time with someone else who lucid dreams and see if we can meet up – so far, bupkis. 🙁
“vivid =/= lucid”
I am ignorant of any distinction. I understand fully that various disciplines covering various things develop their terminology, define, and make distinctions.
I simply use the term vivid generically to denote ‘wild ass enhancement.’
Is that clear, now?
Furry muff.
When I talk of this stuff – “vivid” means something you recall with incredible detail (and in the realms of dreams, seems ultra real).
“Lucid” means you are AWARE, at the time of dreaming. Not “oh yeah I remember that happening”, but fully completely “there” and interacting with your “normal” mind knowing that it’s a completely artificial reality.
That was hardly a dustup – for the simple reason that Jimmy’s too stubborn to really engage anyone in a debate (or knowledgeable enough about the science to pull it off). His intransigence isn’t surprising when you consider that he’s approaching diet/nutrition from a fundamentalist Christian worldview. So being susceptible to the facts just isn’t baked into the cake for Jimbo.
Gab, that STTM site tells you to lower your thyroid medication dose when you’re on LDN. But I know a few others for whom LDN wasn’t helpful. And these were all low T3 guys who did not have antibodies or never had antibodies tested. And these guys were all euthyroid (TSH under 5). If there is no autoimmune attack, LDN cannot do its job. Usually, they’re antibody-driven. But for something like Crohn’s or CFS, there is no antibody-testing. I suspect your neuropathy was autoimmune-driven. But then, what’s behind your neuropathy?
Have you had ANA-ELISA tested? Both Sjogren’s and SLE could feature severe peripheral neuropathy, including central nervous system complications that are MS-like. I know someone who is prediabetic with severe peripheral neuropathy; his endo thought that was strange, maybe he’s anemic. Actually, he had a full-blown Sjogren’s along with pre-diabetes and the main contributor to his neuropathy was autoimmunity, not hyperglycemia.
Neuropathy can appear with all connective tissue autoimmune diseases. And you should make sure yours is neuropathy, not possibly AS.
neuropathy due to nerve damage at T11 on left side. Went through the entire series of pain variations on right side a couple of years back: stabbing, lancinating pain > maggots crawling around under skin > cold sensation > burning……. all the nerve types in order from largest to smallest. I figured when it got to the burning I was only getting type 4s and it would eventually all cease. It did. Then it started on the left side and I thought maybe LDN would help so I wouldn’t go through the stages again for 4 years on this new side. LDN did well. After three weeks I didn’t take it one night. POW! Stabbing pain right back. Very energy sapping. Back on it for three months. Stopped for a few days. Am fine. Take it for a few days per week. Not every night now. Will run out of them soon and forgot to get a new script.
This is post herniation T11 and some arthritic changes in the area. I still can get muscle spasm pain but that’s not the same. And LDN does nothing for arthritic pain.
You know that’s funny. My arms would go numb at night. All the way from my finger tips to my elbow. I would wear splints for both arms overnight but they would still go numb. I always thought that was due to my carpal tunnel syndrome. LDN stopped that and I never felt numbness again until I skipped LDN one day.
Funny how we realize certain symptoms are autoimmune-driven. It turns out the numbness was driven by my tissue/nerve inflammation triggered by RA, not carpal tunnel. Also, my stiff fingers and inability to twist bottle caps in the morning stopped on LDN. I can only say your arthritic pain might be osteoarthritic, perhaps not autoimmune, whereas the neuropathic component of whatever you may be autoimmune-driven. Many of these systemic diseases like RA, SLE and SS have a host of complex symptoms. No two snow flakes are alike and the degree and severity of symptoms are incredibly variegated among patients. If you have a PCP, getting him to at least have your ANA tested is the first step. If positive, then ask him to chase down exactly what it’s positive for.
Hey Richard. I have been drawn to the RS community you have poppin’ over here. When I realized cutting out gluten helped my digestion and nearly eliminated my arthritis symptoms I went on an epic diet journey of elimination. It started with gluten and then grains. Then I went low carb paleo and started cross reacting with any milk proteins I had as a “treat” (usually GF pizza with a handful of lactase pills). Then I had horrible digestive issues that lasted weeks at a time that I found could be relieved on a low-FODMAP diet. I gave up on my veggies and limited my diet to mostly meat. The restriction made me worse: eating starch and fibre causing bloating of ridiculous proportions. Sometimes I’d have bouts of D and intense fatigue.
Strangely, the bloating on the potato starch I bought a week and a half ago has been minimal. And starting two weeks ago I’ve been adding in starchy tubers. This week I even ate beans. I am not in terrible pain. I am not experiencing a flare in joint inflammation. I have started eating some FODMAP enemies, including sweet potato which has caused some discomfort (need smaller portions I think). I have also experienced some very lucid dreams- there’s been a shift in head space.
I am determined to keep up with this despite minor discomfort. Eating such a restrictive diet led to hypothyroid symptoms- including low libido and lethargy. Not fun for someone in their twenties. I am a little upset that low carb is so advocated for- especially in the goal of “healing the gut”. I am glad I found your thoughts on this.
@Richard. I have two wishes. (1) Jimmy to eat resistant starch. (2) Richard Nikoley to find Jesus. (1) will be harder than (2) and you know how fucking hard (2) is right?
Oh btw, I checked and you can still smoke marijuana as a Christian.
Spanish – LDN is an acronym for? went back to read your posts, but can’t discern. thanks