My Twitter Dustup Over Resistant Starch with Jimmy Moore
Let me make no bones about it. I’m a fan of jimmy moore. Why? It’s very simple. He helps a lot of people and he gets the word out from literally hundreds of others who help people too—both from his blog and podcast (I’ve been a 2-time guest myself). I’m not a perfect as enemy of the good kinda guy…and babies need a good drying off and cuddle after a bath.
I’d go so far as to say that in the early days (2007/8), for me, Jimmy’s podcast was the absolute most varied sources of information on an important health theme that I could find; which, in those days, was primarily focussed on the angelization of saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet as a means of counteracting the CW demonization of same.
Then he embraced paleo. To me, that meant more, varied information. His podcast became even more interesting and complete. Others saw it differently, but I never gave a care to that. They’re just stoopid and short sighted, worried about what, I have no clue.
At the same time, I have never backed off from stating my disagreements with Jimmy. Done it a few times. Couldn’t take his chocolate cake/protein comparison, so there’s this: “Protein is the New Carbohydrate,” and Why to Ditch the Low-Carb Catechism (Sorry Jimmy). There’s maybe a couple of others—far ‘moore’ where I’ve defended him—but even Jimmy has noted that I never attack him personally. I never will. To me, his accomplishments far outweigh his errors, difficulties and troubles along the way.
I have my own glass house.
OK, so I think he just dismissed the issue of resistant starch out-of-hand, and probably because of the word “starch.” I began a Twitter exchange with him here.
@livinlowcarbman If you didn’t see this, Jimmy… bit.ly/IF8bNY
@livinlowcarbman … This one too: bit.ly/18rTyXQ
You can just hit that first tweet link and scan forward for relevant tweets and replies over the next day or so. Some thought I was a bit tough on Jimmy, but they were ignorant of our long history. I respect Jimmy enough to not coddle him. I value his work enough to give it a shot in making him take this seriously.
Basically, what I got back from Jimmy was ‘yea, saw it, interesting, keep it up, etc.’ Dismissal—I know it when I see it. I went at him again, a few hours later.
@livinlowcarbman too many comments to draw attention too, but here’s one bit.ly/IQ3vEg
My story is similar to all of the others. Both the insulin sensitivity and dreams. I had a plate full of mashed potatoes last night for the first time in a long time. My BS never made it above 156. Unbelievable considering a cup of rice would normally send me well above 200. I too have very deep sleep and very vivid dreams. As a bonus I have now had 2 very lucid dreams. If you don’t know about lucid dreams they are a trip. Very fun (for me).
Turns out that really kicked it off. No need to copy it here. Just hit this link and you can see some of the tweet stream. To my point…Jimmy, to me, exposes the ignorance that has caused him, so far, to dismiss resistant starch. In one, he tweets that he ‘doesn’t have a resistant starch deficiency.’ Actually, no human does. It’s resistant to our digestion. It’s the trillions of gut bacteria numbering 10 times the cells in our body—and responsible for all sorts of metabolic, immunologic, inflammatory, auto-immune, hormonal processes and balancing acts of all—that have the deficiency. Moreover, per se and a priori, an Atikns modeled Low Carbohydrate Diet is the most nutrient deficient diet for our gut biome on the entire planet.
This point is inarguable, save perhaps for the Anorexic Diet, or the New Bulimic Discovery. They—our gut bugs—require resistant starches…not just fibers from leaves, flowers, and FODMAPS.
Here’s his tweet that exposed the fact that I was dealing, still, not with disagreement primarily (it’s derivative), but ignorance.
Moore wrong than a very wrong thing
Moreover, this exposes a very deep problem with the Low Carbohydrate advocates in the very general. Let’s flow with the logic.
- low-carb has proven to be a great intervention for a lot of people generally, and even therapeutically. In realms of neurologic disorders (such a seizures, epilepsy, etc.) and even cancers, ketogenic diets show a low of upside potential. And everyone knows about the weight loss up to the point of stalling 20-40 pounds from goal.
- Atkins was a start, but it was entirely focussed initially on a macro, and not food quality. Hence, all the typical junk food—virtuous only in its lowness in a single evil (carbohydrate).
- paleo and WAPF influences have had a profound impact on LCers in terms of food quality, and Jimmy has done his part in being nudged that way. Yea, I know: he ought just get all principled and not worry about his house, car, and other payment obligations while nobody sends him checks and only heckles, but I get it. “Idealists” never do. They’re the ones sitting on nice fat trust funds—not Jimmy.
- The gut biome is new science…still, and for a long time to come. Thinking back to 2007-11, metabolism was the whole enchilada. Now, we are discovering that macros are very ugly stepchildren, and that the trillions of critters in our gut constitute complex relationships we are only just now beginning to not begin to understand.
- They share in our food, which affects their antagonism and balance with each other, but they also have their own food. Resistant starch is one that’s exclusively for them. We don’t digest it.
- But resistant starch is largely only found in taboo foods for low carbers. They can supplement, eat tons of grams of RS from potato starch and it won’t even knock them out of ketosis, but it’s from taboo potatoes and other no-nos that violate a catechism of their own choosing.
- They have a serious dilemma. Already, I get the valid argument that supplementing potato starch is to supplement a processed food (it’s very minimally processed, but that’s a different subject). So, just as LCers embrace Real Food—except starchy ones—we come up with a processed supplement that does not affect their LC status at all.
- They are at once in the pickle of re-embarcing something processed, that comes from taboo potatoes or to make it even worse, having to consider dropping strict LC by adopting cooked & cooled rice, beans and potatoes—which are the highest modern dietary sources of resistant starch—though they’re always welcome to chow down on tree bark and cattail pollen, both high in RS, and prevalent in coprolite studies.
- Or, they get to close their eyes, put hands over their ears and yell lalalalala…
- Is that about it?
I got into this with Jimmy not for blog post fodder, though that’s fine and part of the process, but to admonish him to take a very close look. It is not at all that resistant starch is driving this. It’s that science concerning “the other 90% of us” is making us all very ignorant at best, exposing every stupidity, at even better. We simply know that resistant starch feeds the critters, and the evidence is that the beneficial ones feed preferentially and can themselves keep the bad ones in check.
Authorities are going to be kicked in the teeth for years, maybe decades to come over this. My prediction. …They were all looking at human metabolism, organic chemical reactions within a mere microcosm of the whole bio-ecosystem that includes 90% more cells, where they all have unknown chemical and hormonal influence, and where their makeup and balance, one-to-another, is very near incomprehensible.
I daresay that every new discovery and understanding concerning the infinitely complex relationships in our gut sets back our bro-science hubris years, perhaps decades.
I’m certainly humbled, but then I love to be wrong more than I love to be right.
…So next time some authority is waxing on about brain, muscle, organ, bone and other tissue cells and acting as though they have a complete picture, asks yourself if they have accounted for the other trillions of cells with receptors and that “poop” chemicals. Ask them further if they understand that every human is a snowflake, that every gut biome is different.
Then ask them how quickly humans can alter their mix of muscle cells and fibers; say, from slow twitch to fast twitch, etc? Once you get an answer, show them this:
Gut Bacteria Rapidly Changes With Diet: Gut Microbiome More Sensitive Than Previously Believed
In his latest research, conducted with a team of colleagues and published in Nature, David explored the ways and time frame in which diet might alter the community structure and activity of the microorganisms lingering within our intestinal tracts. This microbial presence is key to human health because it carries out digestive processes that our bodies cannot. […]
The scientists observed that the microbial activity taking place in participants’ guts mirrored differences between herbivorous and carnivorous mammals. For instance, the diet based exclusively on animal products contributed to the most dramatic changes in the bacterial community, inspiring growth of 22 species, among them bile-tolerant microorganisms (Alistipes, Bilophila wadsworthia, and Bacteroides). The animal-based diet also decreased the levels of Firmicutes, including Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale, and Ruminococcus bromii, which are necessary to metabolizing complex carbohydrates typically found in plants. Meanwhile, just three bacterial species came to prominence during the periods participants consumed only plant-based foods.
“In concert, these results demonstrate that the gut microbiome can rapidly respond to altered diet, potentially facilitating the diversity of human dietary lifestyles,” the authors wrote in their study.
What surprised the researchers most was the speed at which these changes could take place. “The relative abundance of various bacteria species looked like it shifted within a day after the food hit the gut,” David told NPR. Even more, the bacteria started to change their behavior after about three days on each diet. David added, “The kind of genes turned on in the microbes changed in both diets.”
I have the full text and it’s way too much to quote. So here’s the punchline(s).
Our findings that the human gut microbiome can rapidly switch between herbivorous and carnivorous functional profiles may reflect past selective pressures during human evolution. Consumption of animal foods by our ancestors was probably volatile, depending on season and stochastic foraging success, with readily available plant foods offering a fall-back source of calories and nutrients21. Microbial communities that could quickly, and appropriately, shift their functional repertoire in response to diet change would have subsequently enhanced human dietary flexibility. Examples of this flexibility may persist today in the form of the wide diversity of modern human diets11.
But, perhaps a truly omnivorous approach is called for, and I don’t just mean LowCarber leaves and flowers.
Finally, we found that microbiota changes on the animal-based diet could be linked to altered faecal bile acid profiles and the potential for human enteric disease. Recent mouse experiments have shown that high- fat diets lead to increased enteric deoxycholic concentrations (DCA); this secondary bile acid is the product of microbial metabolism and pro- motes liver cancer26. In our study, the animal-based diet significantly increased the levels of faecal DCA (Fig. 5a). Expression of bacterial genes encoding bile salt hydrolases, which are prerequisites for gut microbial production of DCA27, was also significantly higher on the animal-based diet (Fig. 5b). Elevated DCA levels, in turn, may have contributed to the microbial disturbances on the animal-based diet, as this bile acid can inhibit the growth of members of the Bacteroidetes and Firmicutes phyla28.
Mouse models have also provided evidence that inflammatory bowel disease can be caused by B. wadsworthia, a sulphite-reducing bacterium whose production of H2S is thought to inflame intestinal tissue6. Growth of B. wadsworthia is stimulated in mice by select bile acids secreted while consuming saturated fats from milk. Our study provides several lines of evidence confirming that B. wadsworthia growth in humans can also be promoted by a high-fat diet. First, we observed B. wadsworthia to be a major component of the bacterial cluster that increased most while on the animal-based diet (cluster 28; Fig. 2 and Supplementary Table 8). This Bilophila-containing cluster also showed significant positive correlations with both long-term dairy (P , 0.05; Spearman correlation) and baseline saturated fat intake (Supplementary Table 20), supporting the proposed link to milk-associated saturated fats . Second, the animal-based diet led to significantly increased faecal bile acid concentrations (Fig. 5c and Extended Data Fig. 9). Third, we observed significant increases in the abundance of microbial DNA and RNA encoding sulphite reductases on the animal-based diet (Fig. 5d, e). Together, these findings are consistent with the hypothesis that diet- induced changes to the gut microbiota may contribute to the development of inflammatory bowel disease. More broadly, our results emphasize that a more comprehensive understanding of diet-related diseases will benefit from elucidating links between nutritional, biliary and microbial dynamics.
Not enough?
Get that? Butyrate? Eat all the butter you like. It’s not how butyrate ought be formed. The abstract.
Abstract
INTRODUCTION: Obesity is linked to type 2 diabetes and risk factors associated to the metabolic syndrome. Consumption of dietary fibres has been shown to have positive metabolic health effects, such as by increasing satiety, lowering blood glucose and cholesterol levels. These effects may be associated with short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), particularly propionic and butyric acids, formed by microbial degradation of dietary fibres in colon, and by their capacity to reduce low-grade inflammation.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate whether dietary fibres, giving rise to different SCFAs, would affect metabolic risk markers in low-fat and high-fat diets using a model with conventional rats for 2, 4 and 6 weeks.
MATERIAL AND METHODS: Conventional rats were administered low-fat or high-fat diets, for 2, 4 or 6 weeks, supplemented with fermentable dietary fibres, giving rise to different SCFA patterns (pectin – acetic acid; guar gum – propionic acid; or a mixture – butyric acid). At the end of each experimental period, liver fat, cholesterol and triglycerides, serum and caecal SCFAs, plasma cholesterol, and inflammatory cytokines were analysed. The caecal microbiota was analysed after 6 weeks.
RESULTS AND DISCUSSION: Fermentable dietary fibre decreased weight gain, liver fat, cholesterol and triglyceride content, and changed the formation of SCFAs. The high-fat diet primarily reduced formation of SCFAs but, after a longer experimental period, the formation of propionic and acetic acids recovered. The concentration of succinic acid in the rats increased in high-fat diets with time, indicating harmful effect of high-fat consumption. The dietary fibre partly counteracted these harmful effects and reduced inflammation. Furthermore, the number of Bacteroides was higher with guar gum, while noticeably that of Akkermansia was highest with the fibre-free diet.
~~~
Ok yea, rat study. Not human. Right? Or, was it mostly a gut bacteria study, bacteria we both share? Eh? Eh?
Eh?
Up for a quickie?
Microbes in the Gut Help Determine Risk of Tumors
Transferring the gut microbes from a mouse with colon tumors to germ-free mice makes those mice prone to getting tumors as well, according to the results of a study published in mBio®, the online open-access journal of the American Society for Microbiology. The work has implications for human health because it indicates the risk of colorectal cancer may well have a microbial component.
I feel ignorant just when it was all figured out. How about you? How comforting to have it all figured out, but I find ignorance far more exciting. I’m just too curious for my own good and “paleo” was getting so boring. Yep, nuthin’ wrong with fat, plenty of meat and such. But I find myself with a level of excitement I haven’t had for years. Can you tell?
…I’m reminded of Art De Vany, again. Somewhere along the line he talked about the vast variety of food that was probably consumed. Out of necessity, no doubt. So to me, the question arises: are our gut bugs an evolutionary result of an enormous variety of foods, animal and plant, including tubers, barks, pollen and other things?
…And I prefer this follow-on question to the more obvious one of “have we adapted to them as well”:
Are we dependent upon their wide flourishing, for more optimal health?
If the answer to that is yes, then it basically means that carnivory, low-carb, vegetarianism and veganism are all out the window. But it also means that omnivory must be taken very seriously. Fortunately, it’s not that hard. A good start might be to pick a half dozen different food cultures from around the world and either learn about, source and cook their foods or, if you live in an urban area, eat ethnic almost always when you go out.
…Which reminds me. I haven’t been to that Ethiopian place in a while, had all my food dumped on an injera to eat by hand.
Update: Jimmy has relented. 🙂 He’s put up a fair and open minded post about resistant starch, opening the door for more of his readers to be exposed to its possibilities: What’s All The Fuss About Resistant Starch?
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A while back I mentioned a show on the discovery channel about a guy surviving on an island by himself. He ate a lot of potatoes to survive.
My guess is that this was a regular part of the gatherer-hunter way of life.
I can’t find an English version but I did find a German and Spanish version.
He slices taro/potato into thin slices and leaves them out in the sun.
Fast forward to the 37:50 minute
At the 12:00 minute mark he shows how he started farming potatoes
Yeah, I agree. Jimmy basically locked himself into a brand that is basically a hole in the ground. Hard to change the domain name at this point. Livinlavidasomecarbs just doesn’t have the same ring to it. His readers are the ones who suffer though.
I remember seeing that video of the Safe Starches Panel from AHS. Jimmy ends up looking like an unintentionally-biased moderator and then allows Rosedale to go on a 10-minute rant about how “safe starches” are some kind of danger that needs to be exposed as a health risk. There was a moment towards the end of the video (58:10) where Jaminet has been silenced and pushed out of the conversation while Rosedale talks down to everyone. If you watch closely, you can see Kresser and Jaminet turn to each other and raise their eyebrows as if to say, “what the f*ck is going on here?” The whole thing seemed to be engineered to protect the low carb brand and dismiss safe starches.
Great article. And I agree with you. I think Jimmy is missing the bigger picture here. And I have a lot of respect for all of the stuff he’s done.
Also, maybe the easiest thing to do is to just eat seasonally based on where you currently live.
Jimmy has done some good work for the low carb movement but he has a bit of an ego issue!
Enjoying seeing where this is going.
About the Jakobsdottir paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827442/table/pone-0080476-t001/
O6 PUFA-heavy rapeseed oil doesn’t exactly align with Paleo/LC/EvFit/Whatever-flavor kind of eating for quality fat sources. That could be an inflammatory confounder. Likewise almost 30% of the energy coming from CHO.
@Michael
Only for those who desire confusion and panacea over clarity and understanding. My only argument has ever been that RS is essential.
The solution is simple. Get both. I have FOS and add a scoop in now & then. Increases the fartage, but that’s OK.
Jesus Fucking Christ, already.
Richard, what particular scFOS do you lean towards?
I’m thinking 2 TBSP of raw honey chaser after my PS tonic. I’ll see how it plays out from there.
@plat
Not diamonds? I’ve got a tub of Syontix.
I’ve also dabbled in raw honey but given it’s like the Hadza’s favorite food, I got a new jar from TJs and am just going to have to try. Kefir, PS, raw honey with a bit of raw milk for thinning purposes is irresistible.
BTW, took 4 whole TBS of PS last night in a pint of a milk kefir mix (it’s actually delicious and I love the texture). Ate pretty big during the day. But since then, about 9PM, it’s now 4:10 PM the next day and am just beginning to feel the slightest bit of hunger pang.
“Overdosing” PS might just be a real magic bullet weight loss hack. Hell, one might even call it fasting. YOU are fasting, but feeding your critters.
Just speculation over how much we thought we knew, but didn’t.
@BreakingBad
“which I’m pretty sure is Richard’s point”
You have that exactly right, sir. That study was simply opened in a tab and I tossed it out. I think I have full text around but the point was larger.
I suspect that a wholly omnivorous diet of natural foods is going to be best. Yet, we have seen remarkable anecdotes by LCers who have been able to lower FBG and blunt spikes when eating starches.
Jimmy doesn’t know it, though I’ve tried to convert it, but I’m trying to help him get on the first bus out of town because he has a big influence and so far, nobody has been harmed by this.
I’m firmly convinced that RS is a huge deal. Not the whole deal, there are other prebiotics too, and some do some things, others do other things, which to me spells mass omnivory, purposefully so. There’s also hermetic effects which haven’t even been discussed. Dose makes the poison. One amount kills you, a trace amount is beneficial. We can’t possibly understand all of this with resolution, but really varied omnivory seems to me to be the best strategy in our ignorance, mostly because we’re not going to know what we’re missing until it’s to late.
Great work Richard. I’m currently doing my own N=1 run with resistant starch based on your observations. Adding in daily about 4tbs with my preworkout protein shake (using pure Red Mill “unmodified” potato starch). I intend to give my gut flora a good two to three week acclimation on this regimen before doing some daily BG monitoring and then conducting one of Chris Kresser’s white rice challenges although historically I haven’t had an issues with gluc control. However, paleo has put me into low insulin resistance over the last year or so; not unexpected.
The David paper is fascinating and confirms my previous suspicions on rapid effects of diet on the gut microbiome. As one of the original crew on the NIH HMP-1 (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19819907 ), I find this to be a very timely confirmation. I am, however, suspicious of any rodent study. Mice are herbivores and any lab strain can go diabetic when put on a high fat diet. Better to just cut the crap (no pun intended) and go with real controlled human studies along the lines of what Peter Attia is hoping to do with NuSI. It should be a fun ride.
livinlavidalowbifido
Probably not worth having a Paleo fight to the death, as I’d rather see you guys cooperating than fighting. But you could always challenge him to a poo fight — and by that I mean you both submit samples to the American Gut Project and see who’s gut is in better shape 🙂
Poo fight!
@Duck
Jimmy is very, very afraid of all this.
I’m trying to help him get ahead of it. In the end, extremes at either end are dead. Purposeful omnivory is going to be where our “other 90%” lead us.
I’m pretty good at detecting fear. Jimmy is afraid of this. Recall how quickly he took up the Safe Starch deal. Why? He had a safe haven. It spikes BG, unequivocally. RS is a starch you can take any amount of, it won’t touch BG, it will moderate FBG, it will blunt spikes and it will ENHANCE ketosis by returning you to that state faster should you indulge in sugar/starch.
Jimmy is smart, and thus, afraid.
So, basically, Jimmy will avoid protein because it can potentially raise blood glucose like a carbohydrate, but when a certain type of carbohydrate can lower a glucose spike from all foods, even protein, and won’t have any effect on blood glucose when eaten by itself, it must be avoided also?
I know. I totally agree. I was just having some fun — I don’t think you should have a “poo fight”. We already know he wouldn’t stand a chance. But I believe you are right about how concerned he must be about having to defend his “brand”.
However, I think that What you and Tim have stumbled upon is bigger than either you, Jimmy or even Paleo for that matter. Therefore, I think you may need to bring Jimmy on board gently and not in public. If you do it in public, he’ll go into defense mode and his readers who bought into LC will just go into defense mode. Have a beer with him in private (his can be low carb) and walk him through what this could mean for millions of people.
This is bigger than all of us. So, when I look at RS, I think of how it can bridge the full spectrum of Paleo together — not divide it into camps.
@Dwayne
I hear you. I’m usually very loath to cite anything from mice or rats.
But thanks for otherwise acknowledging. Big fan of Peter. We had dinner perhaps a year ago. Big supporter of NuSi. Loved his TED talk, too.
@John
Yep.
@Duck
Too late. I don’t do back channel unless it’s for a particular reason particular to me, and this does not qualify.
Jimmy immediately took up the “Safe Starches” deal, because he had a safe haven (BG spikes and all LCers are deathly afraid of them). Here, there is no such haven.
I’m not being mean, just very direct. I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t have a very deep appreciation for Jimmy and what he does, at base.
I’m just glad I never got my own self locked into something that at a point, even though essentially wrong or very incomplete, is required for my livelihood. That’s unfortunate and I’m sure LC will live on, but without integrating the micro biome that loves and thrives on carbs, it’s going to be relegated to an intervention and not a lifestyle.
You guys do know that Jimmy has euthyroid hypothyroid symptoms? He could possibly be helped by all this. But the low carb movement is actually bigger than Jimmy. Jimmy can bank on people like Rosedale, Shanahan, Westman, Perlmutter, Attia, Feynman, etc. These are MD/Ph.D.s. All these guys are clueless on the gut microbiome. But there is a larger implication for all this. Low-carbism is premised on 2 benefits: weight loss and blood sugar control. This is the one-sided view of health promoted by low-carbing: not only you would lose weight but maintain blood sugar. And they end up overreaching, claiming that blood sugar control is all-important. It’s important but not all-important. You think there is a cholesterol mafia? There is also a blood sugar mafia. The mafiosos are Rosedale, Feynman, Perlmutter, etc. who believe in the insulin theory of chronic and degenerative diseases like CVD, cancer, neurodegenerative diseases, etc. If your BG ever rises above 110, you trigger these risks.
You know what the LC movement is afraid of? I won’t beat around the bushes. I’ll tell you the real reason for the fear. It is the fear that LCism will implode because of its association with gut dysbiosis which a VLC diet induces. Some of the side-effects of long-term VLCing have been well documented and enough people have experienced them that you cannot deny them blanketly anymore.
The fear is that VLCing/ketoing will be implicated in gut dysbiosis, which has recently been demonstrated to lead to immune dysregulation, especially the onset of autoimmune diseases. Those cold finger and toes are not just hypothyroid; they’re really Raynaud’s. If you have close relatives suffering from Rheumatoid Arthritis and Hashimoto’s, there is a real chance that your Raynaud’s is really secondary, that is a full-blown autoimmune disease is right around the corner, as Raynaud’s heralds autoimmunity which could stay latent for 5-10 years. That’s real fear, folks. And even good Richard hasn’t grasped the full implication of all this. The fear is not just regarding blood sugar; it’s regarding the growing realization that low-carbing just might be inimical to health.
Lucid dreams aren’t caused by having resistant starch in your bum, it’s a case of maintaining a semi-coherent mindset whilst drifting into unconsciousness. I’ve been researching and practising lucid dreaming for 20+ years, mega fascinating and exciting subject.
The only real effect diet can have is what it does to your sleep patterns and alpha/theta/REM/etc states, which of course any significant change in your diet can spur on by hormonal signalling changes.
Here’s the best ROI methodology for achieving LD I’ve come up with (sadly it’s typically unavailable to an alcohol-induced sleeper):
* set alarm for 3 hours before you have to get up, so usually just before dawn – I always find the last couple hours of sleep are when it’s easy to go in and out repeatedly and dreams are right there as soon as you enter sleep
* actually wake up properly for at least 15 minutes, go to the loo, get a drink, delete Facebook, whatever
* then go back to bed and read Kindle or watch a youtube documentary or whatever on your phone at the lowest brightness setting available (or find an app that “re-creates” time-appropriate light temperatures), something that makes the brain active but because you’re not fully rested and it’s the optimum time for sleep, it’s kinda like yin/yang forces on your conscious/unconscious
* your arm at a slight elevation (eg laying on your side holding your phone/book up slightly) provides cues for once you start hitting microsleeps, and you can sort of let yourself fall asleep, but remain semi-aware that it’s happening
There’s a period which I call “greying out” where your mind starts slipping to unconscious, and you can feel your arm drop at the same time, this is the big sticky-note for the brain where you have to notice that you’re falling asleep and can sort of remain aware – BUT be careful not to move physically else you’ll completely wake up again.
From there it’s typical to manage only 5-30 seconds of lucidity as the dream world unfolds, things sort of become weird and you can tell you’re going to lose lucidity as it becomes tunnel vision – you’ll either fall into complete unconscious sleep/dreaming or wake up again. If you wake up, don’t move one iota, not even an eyelid – you can often easily fall back to sleep but remain aware within 30 seconds.
I’ve got a lot more on this subject but I’m sure I’ve bored you to sleep already. :p My main thing is I want to write a book on this stuff but completely separate it from the mystical/spritual bullshit it’s typically encompassed by.
@Spanish Caravan
Good points. The hole is even bigger than I imagined.
Oh BTW for anyone interested, that method above is my version of what’s known a WILD – Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming, go ahead and google that for more info.
@Ron ‘Poo fight!’
Richard’s comments section needs a thumbs up option. 😉
@duck
I was in person for that panel and have has zero interest in Rosedale ever since. Nobody really cares anyway. Jimmy is more influential.
@ash
I don’t think you get it, man. Fine all those techniques and yea, there are those times in a half sleep state where I can write prose in my head that amaze me and I could never do consciously.
Thing is, and this is confirmed by dozens of comments from different people, 2-4 T before bed, and it happens with no effort beyond that, and so remarkably so. I did 4T last night, had some amazing, amazing complex dreams.
So very many have reported similarly. One commenter gets x-rated. I only had a few of those so far but it is a feeling as though you are literally having sex, and very sustained. I was surprised my shorts weren’t wet once I woke up.
Duck, the hole is actually larger than I described. Someone actually made this connection a while ago. I can’t remember who. But we kind of laughed it off. But now it makes sense. I personally know more than a dozen who developed autoimmune diseases on a low-carb diet. And not all of them are “mere” hypothyroidism or someone with low T3 who became Hashimoto’s later. But more serious diseases like RA, SLE, etc. But that’s only in cases where someone did long-term low-carbing, developed symptoms, and got themselves tested. Most autoimmune diseases are not diagnosed until you develop symptoms. You first develop antibodies, which are signs of autoimmune attack. That attack can go on for as long as 5-10 years before you develop symptoms. How many low-carbers are getting ANA-tested? All they know is TPO/TG.
If I feel good, then I must be healthy. That’s not true. Just like gluten sensitivity, autoimmune attacks proceed stealthily and pathogenesis creeps unawares. That’s why these low-carbers cannot connect the dots.
How did I develop Scleroderma on a VLC diet? How did these food allergies hit me all of a sudden, after I lost 60 lbs. and my A1c is 4.5? Must be genetics and my bad luck, huh?
Once we begin to connect the dots, we will finally realize the magnitude of what we have here. At that point, low-carbing will no longer be tenable and just about anyone associated with the movement will be discredited. That’s not any time soon. That gut microbiome research coming down the pike will need about 5-7 years to be fully digested. It will take that long to connect the dots.
[…] ← My Twitter Dustup Over Resistant Starch with Jimmy Moore […]
Those confirmations and anecdata come no matter what the diet change, just that there’s a change, go ahead and google [any diet / dreams]. All I can say is trust me, I’m miles ahead on dreamstates and altered consciousness etc, diet and hormonal shifts have a huge effect in “vividacity” but mostly it’s because of actually remembering a dream – almost exclusively at the end of the sleep state (which is where my WILD technique focusses).
Spuds aren’t the cause any more than cholesterol causes CVD etc, but go ahead and combine the efforts of RS and WILD and let us know your results. Actual full LUCID dreams are a far cry from “vivid” dreams – one is like riding the magic bus, the other is driving it.
If it weren’t for my biochemistry geek and neurolinguistic programming underpinnings I’d probably be a Shaman.
Isn’t “lucid” dreaming about learning how to have total control of your dreams? I believe it is supposed to be different from “vivid” dreaming. Sometimes I think it’s better to let your mind go where it wants to go on its own.
Describing lucid dreaming vs remembering a vivid dream is like trying to describe transcendent shagging to someone who’s only seen boobs in a movie.
But Ash, you might want to explore the potential RS link to serotonin and neurotransmitter enhancement before dismissing it. I’ve changed my diet before, all of us have, but this is different. There’s a big gut/brain connection here with RS (basically a missing nutrient) that needs further exploration. You should join in with RS and see if your head explodes into an HD IMAX experience 😉
@ash Astral Projection ?
And Ash, keep in mind that up until a few weeks ago, few people on the planet were ingesting more than a few grams of RS2 in a day. We upped it to like 35g/day.Big difference. This isn’t something you get from just eating a few spuds.
Spanish, what do you do about the Scleroderma?
While I was reading up on low dose Naltrexone, one of the things treated was Scleroderma. I don’t know what to make of this drug because it’s also being used to successfully treat Crohn’s disease. Is it working on the immune system or the gut or both? This drug also improves sleep quality. Not in a wild way but it is noticeable. Helps with neuropathic pain as well.
Hope the plantains working for you.
So we’re going to split hairs on lucid vs. vivid?
I was the first to mention it, and vivid was just the word I came up with at the time.
I’m sorry, Ash, that you feel the need to condescend to people who are loving their sleep and dream states. Perhaps because it was so effortless, kinda perhaps how it out to be naturally, and it costs about 4 bucks a pound?
Personally, I’m more than satisfied and have no interest in diminishing returns. Moreover, I take no stock in dreams, meaning, or anything of the sort. It’s just pure pleasure. Nor do I really wish to control or direct them in any way. I just enjoy being along for the ride, in awe of what my mind seems able to produce in that state.
Gab, LDN is phenomenal. I can’t recommend it highly enough. But my impression is it’s only helpful for clearly antibody-driven autoimmnity like Systemic Scleroderma, SLE, RA, as well as Corhn’s, etc., but not subclinical hypothyroidsm or the low T3 syndrome.
Er, LDN will reset your immune system overnight but it won’t improve sleep quality! It will do exactly the opposite of what RS is doing! If you want vivid nightmares, try LDN! It’s like a mini DMT episode if you’re sensitive to it. You have to be very careful with the dosing. Some people never adjust to their nightly Nightmare on Elm Street! If you want Basic Instinct every night, try RS!
Gab, if you have Scleroderma, you first have to distinguish whether it’s systemic or limited. I am on my toes constantly because of my Raynaud’s. But Systemic Scleroderma is incredibly dangerous. It’s more crippling than MS or Systemic Lupus. Only diligent antibody-testing will uncover exactly what you have.
Keep in mind about 5-15% of the population have Raynauds’. These are primary Raynaud sufferers and for them it is merely an annoynace. Just put your gloves on and use a space heater. However, if you have HLA-B 27 and vulnerable otherwise, you could develop scleroderma or similar autoimmune diseases. That’s why this thing can be scary: Raynaud’s is associated with both forms of scleroderma. Conventional medicine will only test you if you have symptoms. If you have Raynaud’s and you have family history of RA, etc., you should test for ANA-ELISA. That’s also the reason why you should not VLC when your family history includes RA. That immune dysregulation initiated by your gut dysbiosis could trigger Raynaud’s, and the autoimmune cascade could start from there.
Spanish Caravan,
I see you are quite knowledgeable about Scleroderma. After several years of vlc I started to develop cold hands/feet. Difficulty swallowing both liquids and solids and I have sore finger joints esp. my pip joints of my pinky fingers. I am female, early forties.
After testing from my rheumy I had 2 different Scleroderma antibodies come back positive. He said he would take a wait and see approach. I have since turned my diet around to PHD adding back safe starches but wonder what else I should be doing? RS or probiotics? Do you yourself have Scleroderma and if so what has helped you if anything.
“a few spuds.”
Oh you caught that part of the condescension too? I let it slide.
Reminded me of the time a sister in law called my 8 years working and managing dozens of men on 10,00o ton ships in the western pacific, Indian Ocean, and med, in two navies, us and French, a “stint in the navy.”
Yawn. You really can’t fix that sort of thing,
Spanish, I’ve been taking it since July or August. 4.5 mg at bedtime. I know many people report upsetting dreams but that did not happen. Yes, at the beginning, more dreams but they were pleasant (not xrated). Definitely not DMTish.
I was using it for neuropathic pain, left middle back. It actually worked for that.
The Thyroid Madness site claims that it can help low T3 syndrome but I don’t think that’s the problem here. It’s underdosing. I’ll find out on Monday. But if the thyroid issue someone may have is autoimmune driven, then why wouldn’t LDN work?
These days it’s LDN plus RPS.
@RN – I don’t mean to be condescending, just pointing out that vivid =/= lucid, and anyone who’s experienced both will know it’s just silly to even conflate them – like when someone drives a Porsche and thinks it’s amazing but has never been in a Lotus. :p
I’m not even interested in the dietary angle on this one, being able to drive your dreams SOMETIMES (not always, I *love* being an aware passenger) is amazing and endlessly fascinating. Sure there’s all the sexy times you can conjure and flying (well, attempting) and making energy balls out of your palms a la Street Fighter – but when you do it often enough you get to try out auto-socio-experimentation, eg asking your dreamstate NPC’s questions about stuff. Real existential shit, man.
@DD – yeah, I’ve never doubted RS can be beneficial – *especially on a moderate carb diet* – and I don’t detract from that, I’ve even shared potato recipes here on FTA in years gone by (though not cooling or specifically RS etc). Pretty much most of the benefits beyond the butt bacteria angle rely on fatty acid oxidisation, something plentiful for us carnivores. Gut/brain linkage is one of my primary research angles.
I’m going to New Zealand for the next month and likely will have only moderate control over my diet (gf’s family are 7th Day Adventists with a cattle farm – wtf?), but once I return I promise to properly indulge an N=1 RS experiment.
@sootedninjas – It’s been over 2 decades of research and trying for me (re: astral projection), and I feel I’m no closer than when I started. Sadly most people who purport it are crackpots going on about spirituality, I attempt it with science in my gut/brain. I used to meditate a whole bunch back in the 90’s and took on Discordianism as the closest thing I can imagine to a sane religion. My favourite method is to pre-decide a specific location/time with someone else who lucid dreams and see if we can meet up – so far, bupkis. 🙁
“vivid =/= lucid”
I am ignorant of any distinction. I understand fully that various disciplines covering various things develop their terminology, define, and make distinctions.
I simply use the term vivid generically to denote ‘wild ass enhancement.’
Is that clear, now?
Furry muff.
When I talk of this stuff – “vivid” means something you recall with incredible detail (and in the realms of dreams, seems ultra real).
“Lucid” means you are AWARE, at the time of dreaming. Not “oh yeah I remember that happening”, but fully completely “there” and interacting with your “normal” mind knowing that it’s a completely artificial reality.
That was hardly a dustup – for the simple reason that Jimmy’s too stubborn to really engage anyone in a debate (or knowledgeable enough about the science to pull it off). His intransigence isn’t surprising when you consider that he’s approaching diet/nutrition from a fundamentalist Christian worldview. So being susceptible to the facts just isn’t baked into the cake for Jimbo.
Gab, that STTM site tells you to lower your thyroid medication dose when you’re on LDN. But I know a few others for whom LDN wasn’t helpful. And these were all low T3 guys who did not have antibodies or never had antibodies tested. And these guys were all euthyroid (TSH under 5). If there is no autoimmune attack, LDN cannot do its job. Usually, they’re antibody-driven. But for something like Crohn’s or CFS, there is no antibody-testing. I suspect your neuropathy was autoimmune-driven. But then, what’s behind your neuropathy?
Have you had ANA-ELISA tested? Both Sjogren’s and SLE could feature severe peripheral neuropathy, including central nervous system complications that are MS-like. I know someone who is prediabetic with severe peripheral neuropathy; his endo thought that was strange, maybe he’s anemic. Actually, he had a full-blown Sjogren’s along with pre-diabetes and the main contributor to his neuropathy was autoimmunity, not hyperglycemia.
Neuropathy can appear with all connective tissue autoimmune diseases. And you should make sure yours is neuropathy, not possibly AS.
neuropathy due to nerve damage at T11 on left side. Went through the entire series of pain variations on right side a couple of years back: stabbing, lancinating pain > maggots crawling around under skin > cold sensation > burning……. all the nerve types in order from largest to smallest. I figured when it got to the burning I was only getting type 4s and it would eventually all cease. It did. Then it started on the left side and I thought maybe LDN would help so I wouldn’t go through the stages again for 4 years on this new side. LDN did well. After three weeks I didn’t take it one night. POW! Stabbing pain right back. Very energy sapping. Back on it for three months. Stopped for a few days. Am fine. Take it for a few days per week. Not every night now. Will run out of them soon and forgot to get a new script.
This is post herniation T11 and some arthritic changes in the area. I still can get muscle spasm pain but that’s not the same. And LDN does nothing for arthritic pain.
A bit off topic.
Low carb may not be the answer to the gut-health connection that RS is so crucial in, but shit like this is the real enemy.
From the article: Are gut bacteria triggering your arthritis?
“Our suggestion: Help your body prevent or manage an autoimmune condition such as RA by nurturing those bacteria teeming inside you, so the good and bad stay in balance. Eat a high-fiber diet of only 100 percent whole grains and lots of fresh fruits and veggies; nix red meat”
While fruits and veg are fine, it’s just the same fucking shit journalistic vomit that has sickened people for the last 40 years.
You know that’s funny. My arms would go numb at night. All the way from my finger tips to my elbow. I would wear splints for both arms overnight but they would still go numb. I always thought that was due to my carpal tunnel syndrome. LDN stopped that and I never felt numbness again until I skipped LDN one day.
Funny how we realize certain symptoms are autoimmune-driven. It turns out the numbness was driven by my tissue/nerve inflammation triggered by RA, not carpal tunnel. Also, my stiff fingers and inability to twist bottle caps in the morning stopped on LDN. I can only say your arthritic pain might be osteoarthritic, perhaps not autoimmune, whereas the neuropathic component of whatever you may be autoimmune-driven. Many of these systemic diseases like RA, SLE and SS have a host of complex symptoms. No two snow flakes are alike and the degree and severity of symptoms are incredibly variegated among patients. If you have a PCP, getting him to at least have your ANA tested is the first step. If positive, then ask him to chase down exactly what it’s positive for.
Hey Richard. I have been drawn to the RS community you have poppin’ over here. When I realized cutting out gluten helped my digestion and nearly eliminated my arthritis symptoms I went on an epic diet journey of elimination. It started with gluten and then grains. Then I went low carb paleo and started cross reacting with any milk proteins I had as a “treat” (usually GF pizza with a handful of lactase pills). Then I had horrible digestive issues that lasted weeks at a time that I found could be relieved on a low-FODMAP diet. I gave up on my veggies and limited my diet to mostly meat. The restriction made me worse: eating starch and fibre causing bloating of ridiculous proportions. Sometimes I’d have bouts of D and intense fatigue.
Strangely, the bloating on the potato starch I bought a week and a half ago has been minimal. And starting two weeks ago I’ve been adding in starchy tubers. This week I even ate beans. I am not in terrible pain. I am not experiencing a flare in joint inflammation. I have started eating some FODMAP enemies, including sweet potato which has caused some discomfort (need smaller portions I think). I have also experienced some very lucid dreams- there’s been a shift in head space.
I am determined to keep up with this despite minor discomfort. Eating such a restrictive diet led to hypothyroid symptoms- including low libido and lethargy. Not fun for someone in their twenties. I am a little upset that low carb is so advocated for- especially in the goal of “healing the gut”. I am glad I found your thoughts on this.
@Richard. I have two wishes. (1) Jimmy to eat resistant starch. (2) Richard Nikoley to find Jesus. (1) will be harder than (2) and you know how fucking hard (2) is right?
Oh btw, I checked and you can still smoke marijuana as a Christian.
Spanish – LDN is an acronym for? went back to read your posts, but can’t discern. thanks
Oh yeah, RS is bad but these – – are good (bay-beeee).
MsMcGillicuddy, LDN = Low Dose Naltrexone. (4.5mg) Used to reduce glutamate production by microglia, centrally and peripherally; and modulate the immune system.
Spanish: ANA = negative.
Spanish, I think they should do a trial of both LDN with RPS for Crohn’s. That would be interesting seeing as how they results for only LDN were very good.
Spanish, my assistant (going to become diabetic) also is anemic and gets neuropathic pins and needles in various places like fingers, feet and lips. She’s gotten better since taking 300mg ferrous gluconate twice per day. But her levels are not rising the way I think they should which indicates to me that her absorption is compromised. She got diarrhoea from eating okra the other day. To me that’s a red flag. She was trying RPS for a little while at low dose but stopped for occult blood testing.
Richard, you disappoint me. You sleep in shorts; I took you for a commando sleeper.
@Ash
OK, thanks for the explanation.
That’s easy, then. It’s both. I’m quite aware that I’m dreaming. Sometimes, I’m not really a participant but an observer. Other times, I am, and have control over what I do in the dream–but have no foresight as to what the other players do—which is pretty cool when you think about it.
To some extent this has always been the case for me. I can also pop out of a dream at will.
The difference here, with RS, for me is that:
1. The story or narrative backdrop is much more complex, much more like real life and not just a bunch of really incomprehensible things.
2. No looping, i.e., same thing over and over (I mentioned this as one of the ver fist stark differences).
3. If I wake up to take a leak, I can often, but not always return to the dream and take up right where I left off.
What I can’t seem to do, yet, is to think about something before falling asleep and be able to have a dream about it. The subject matter seems to be whatever it is, though I would say that recently, they are more relevant to stuff that’s been going on.
Anyone know if using vinegar in rice and bean preparation affects the RS content, does the acidity breakdown the RS? Thx
@Benjamin.
I use Apple Cider Vinegar (with Mother) to speed up the fermentation process of beans. What I do is, I add a Tbsp of ACV to lukewarm water to soak my beans. I notice a lot more bubbles at 24h with ACV than without- a sign of better fermentation.
Since ACV Mother is known for a host of benefits on its own, at best my hope is that the good bacteria in ACV will multiply during the fermentation process; at worst it speeds up the fermentation process. No science behind this- so take it with a pinch of salt.
T-Nat
@Benjamin, adding ACV should not affect the RS content.
T-Nat
I’m a type 1 diabetic on a low-carb diet (not ketogenic) and for the past week I’ve been taking 4 Tbs. or so of raw potato starch daily in water along with probiotic powder (supposedly 11 strains of bacteria and over 200 billion per gram). I had diarrhea (as I’ve had on and off for months) when I started: gone in a day. No stools for a couple days, slight gas and bloated feeling, regular stools since. No blood sugar spikes from the starch. No dreams even if I take the starch near bedtime. I plan to keep trying this for a month and see what happens: apart from the quick diarrhea remedy I haven’t seen benefits, but maybe blood sugar control will improve.
Richard, I think Ash will argue that “Lucid Dreaming” is more like being a dream ninja — like the characters in the movie Inception who aren’t just having a vivid dream that seems real, but are aware that they are dreaming. Most people wake up the moment they realize they are dreaming, but a “lucid” dreamer — particularly one who does it for recreation — supposedly figures out mind hacks to become aware of their dream states and keep themselves in those dream states as long as possible, while controlling them. I guess it’s supposed to be like a safe form of LSD in a way — they say it expands your mind, etc. If you remember the movie, the characters have to carry a totem around with them that lets them know if they are dreaming or in reality or not because it can start to be come difficult to tell the difference between reality and dreams when start to become aware of your dreams. I’m willing to bet Ash carries a totem everywhere.
It’s all very fascinating, but for some reason has decided he needs us to be aware that we are in the minor leagues. I don’t think any of us really care if we are aware of our dream states or not — they are still fun.
I hope Ash will do an n=1 experiment and report back to us, because in my own n=1 I found that my real life waking consciousness has become more vivid with RS as my brain fog has lifted with other interventions. Either RS is helping with detox or it’s enhancing serotonin — or both. On the other hand, if he’s already taken steps to enhance these pathways, he may not notice much of a difference. I guess we’ll see. But, if RS can potentially enhance serotonin and one’s consciousness, you’d think he’d be more excited about it. :/
See more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
I am on day three with 2T potato starch.
The Good: No IBS for the past two days. Yay!
One enormous soft BM this morning.
Good sleep, crazy dreams.
The bad: Gas, lots of gas.
The Ugly: Really stinky gas. My wife is ready to kill me. Taking lots of outside walks,
and everyone in the gym now knows how to count to potato.
Gonna Keep going…might even say F it and double up.
Any ideas for reducing the smell of the gas please help!
Charcoal capsules? Green food powder? Flat-D Charcoal Sack?
Jeff, you’ll probably have to tell the Mrs. to suck it up, sort of. Change takes a bit of time. We don’t even know what else you are eating. But it seems whatever it is makes it past the small intestine and is being broken down in your colon. Blue Angel time anyone? LOL
Jeff, there’s some guy in the states manufacturing charcoal filter underwear. Seriously. ;O
Jeff, It’s British:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/24/fart-filtering-underwear_n_4156400.html
I don’t get gas from PS, so I have no idea, but maybe try some of the remedies here http://flatulencecures.com such as fennel tea or ginger tea, and report back if any of them work.
Jeff, I’m sure you know this, but charcoal — while pretty benign — shouldn’t be taken within 2 hours of food. It will literally suck the vitamins/minerals up from the food and you have access to them.
I don’t know if charcoal sucks up bacteria in addition to toxins, but it wouldn’t totally surprise me if it did — so might not be something you want to take constantly while trying to growing your good bacteria. I have no evidence on that, but something to think about.
JeffM, one enormous soft BM is the sign that Bacterodes are populating your colon and restoring moisture and holding your stool together. Try eating some dried plantains Tatertot-style and your BM will be even more enormous. Seriously, I thought I gave birth to a Burmese Python. Dried plantains seem to be just 100% RS: they just go in, ferment, then go out.
If Jimmy is too busy to address Richard’s challenge then I’d love to see what it he’s working on. It must be darn good!
From the medicaldaily:
“What surprised the researchers most was the speed at which these changes could take place. “The relative abundance of various bacteria species looked like it shifted within a day after the food hit the gut,” David told NPR.”
Within a day! Now can this possibly be possible. Where do the various species come from so fast?
Possibly here: “(e) on the architecture of the human bowel, we propose that the human appendix is well suited as a “safe house” for commensal bacteria, providing support for bacterial growth and potentially facilitating re-inoculation of the colon in the event that the contents of the intestinal tract are purged following exposure to a pathogen.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002251930700416X
Would think this a likelihood by far. And then, what would be the consequences for a population as over here, where in the sixties and seventies children and teenagers at the slightest belly ache got their appendix removed as a routine?
Peace.
Spanish: A Burmese Python? LOL! OMFLJ! You are totally hilarious. I’m not even going to Google Burmese Python to find out how long they grow…………….
I could never hack the guy. First it was the whole “I’m a poor Christian, please send me your money” shtick, followed by pimping products with blatantly false advertising – and ignoring the voices of forum members who pointed out the flaws in the product labeling. It’s almost like the Oral Roberts of Low Carb Religion.
@Los – you put the link to the movie in German
Here’s the English version:
Best BM ever on resistant starch. Very satisfying and relaxing at the same time. ahhhhhhh
Crazy. I had that happen to me about 6 hours after eating my underdone potato stone, but I was sure I was experiencing some solanine toxicity (I don’t recommend trying that at home). I assumed it was my body trying to get rid of the solanine. Weird.
Ask Jimmy what you he would like from you in exchange for him conducting an RS experiment on himself. Every man has his price. Your challenge in exchange for Jimmy’s challenge! Let the games begin.
I’d certainly like to see what happens to Jimmy under an RS regime. It would certainly make for good blog fodder. And I’d also be keen to see what Jimmy has in store for you.
I think a cyclical ketogenic diet will end up being the best of all worlds. It doesn’t restrict starch everyday, resistant or otherwise, nor is it anti-fat.
I want to see what Dave Asprey finds with all this. My guess is he won’t just shuck all the benefits of a cyclical ketogenic diet and start chowing down on beans, rice, and potatoes everyday, but find a way to incorporate RS into a BP framework.
I’m showing my ignorance here, but does Asprey prioritize brain hacking over peripheral organ health? I mean, if eating some starches every day turns out to be more ideal for microbiome, thyroid, hormones, adrenal function and immune function, would Asprey still favor whatever made his brain sharpest? I don’t really see him paying as close attention to those things as the “brain hacking”.
I wonder what the Wolf and the krakken thoughts on RS. Both gentlemen does not shy away from starches.
I think he’ll probably track the effects, and give his take. If it turns out that it does make your brain not work so good, he might not adopt it, or consider it cyclically, but he isn’t trying it out as a brain hack.
Regardless, he’ll probably mention the benefits, as well as potential downsides, which not many on this blog seem interested in.
It could end up having no effect on brain function at all, and end up becoming an everyday supplement.
NUSI will be a good one to make a research study on it.
Jimmy Moore has not done anything to help anyone.
May his pathetic poopstain rest on his soiled underpants.
GOD that dude is such a piece of shit.
strong words. He did help me and I’m better for it.
@richard
I do not understand the lack of understanding on Jimmy Moore side. Has it not already been accepted among low carbers that food is not what it is when you look at it, food is what your body makes out of it. Eg. fat does not turn into body fat on low carb diet, sugar does due to insulin action. It is the same with our symbiotic microbiome – what it makes out of the food we eat. Resistant starch – although comprised of sugar molecules does not equal to eating sugar because RS gets converted into SCFAs in the colon. Plus other benefits of all the other microbiome actions and interactions science only begins to start understanding. Why is it so difficult for him to comprehend? And he has done so many podcast with Natasha Campbell McBride and others who speak of gut health and fermentation. I listened to many of them and I agree with Richard – he has helped many people including me that is why it is important he understands it and joins in and helps spreading this new knowledge.
You are being too hard on Jimmy. This RS and scFOS stuf is very new. And Jimmy’s personal problems with sugars and starches (and even protein) have been pretty severe, so give him a little time to figure it out.
@Gemma,
Yes, RS is not the same as starch, but everyone now knows that RS is a form of raw starch. So, I imagine Jimmy doesn’t want to embrace RS because doing so would imply that we should be eating RS rich foods (safe starches) which isn’t exactly encouraged on his menu. He’d have to admit that he misjudged safe starches, but now is probably the best time for him to admit that — while the RS evidence is starting to fall into place. But that in and of itself threatens his relevancy as his readers and listeners reintroduce carbs into their lifestyle. If only he had called his blog something different, it would be an easier decision for him.
@MC, Not sure I agree. Asprey seems to be mainly focussed on brain hacking. In his RS post, he says:
In other words, instead of questioning the wisdom of being in ketosis for extended periods — since nobody really knows if it’s that great for your peripheral (non-brain) health — he’s just trying to find ways to stay in ketosis longer to hack his brain more.
Basically, it sounds like he’s going to use this as a way to eat less starches and isn’t interested in thinking about the fact that RS gives us a clue that moderate starch intake may indeed be good for our overall health. Not sure his readers all quite understand that distinction between brain health and peripheral health. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but it sounds like you missed that too (as most people did).
And according to his article, Asprey describes a habit of adding prebiotics to his Bulletproof coffee and then deeming them a failure. He seems to think that adding RS to coffee is fine as long as it’s kept below “160º”. I could have sworn Tatertot said to keep RS below 130º to preserve the RS. If Asprey puts RS in his coffee I think he’s going to end up downing digestible starch and his experiments will probably be a failure. It really feels like he hasn’t researched RS all that well.
Duck, Tater said 140F/60C, I’m pretty sure. So Asprey is clueless about RS eating technique. Imagine what he’ll do though when he finds out that RS regulates bacteria that control neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, GABA, etc. That is, it could allay depression, OCD, panic disorder, schizophrenia, paranoia, etc. much more effectively (and naturally) than SSRIs do. He’ll embrace it as soon as he finds a way to make a buck off it.
@DuckDodgers
He’s not trying to ditch the benefits of ketosis, but trying to find ways to enhance it, for the times he does eat starch, by including RS with those starchy meals or as the starchy meal. If you can include RS, with a ketogenic diet, that’s probably the best option for overall health.
He’s not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.
As for RS in coffee? I don’t know where Tatertot got 130 from, but I’d assume time would matter. 5 minutes at 160 would eliminate resistant starch?
I’m guessing Dave’s going to track his numbers, so he should know by that if he’s getting RS or just glucose.
@sc
Well, if he puts it in hot enough coffee to burst the granules, he’s going to get quite a surprise (coffee butter hair gel).
As noted before, I’ve been basically low carb for 40+ years. It was keeping me pretty healthy, but things were starting to go south a bit (won’t bite you with the details) and ketosis wasn’t having the same great benefits it used to have. I’ve been doing PS for three months or so, and I’m shocked at the range of benefits, from digestion to FBG improvement (my BG was in the 80s the last few days at times–never previously). Dreaming is great, but my general mood is way, way better. One question is what is the main cause, better gut critters or better sleep, and I imagine the answer is both. And I also imagine it’s a positive feedback loop. Better sleep + better mood = less cortisol, or something. Anyone know of effects of high cortisol on gut biome?
Have we come in from the desert?
Charles,
How soon after starting did you see a positive impact on your FBG? I’m on Day 12 and started testing FBG on Day 7. With the exception of one day have not been able to drop my FBG below 105.
Adriana
While I don’t have any hard data on this and it’s individual, my impression is that when someone is not getting the same results they are most likely to be LC dieters but non diabetics. I could be wrong. But I think the reason it seems to work best for moderate to higher carb eaters and diabetics is for the same reason the BG blunting doesn’t work nearly as well when a person is in ketosis. So, related to insulin. Normal carb dieters and diabetics supplementing insulin have more insulin sensitivity while LCers not taking insulin have a physiological insulin resistance that RS does not seem to overcome as easily. That was the case for both wife and I. I didn’t see my FBG come down substantially until I began really making regular starches part of my daily intake.
Not sure what your situation is, but those are my thoughts.
Thanks Richard – so both you and your wife’s FBG came down after adding both PS and regular, ahem, “safe ” starches to your diet, presumabley those with more RS qualities (cold potatoes, cold rice…). What was a typical FBG for you before and after reintroduction of starches?
Richard: I think that is exactly right, based on my experience.
I am a LC and non-diabetic. My FBG did start to come down in the middle of 2nd week and I’m now in the tail end of my 4th week, FBG is now consistently high 70’s to low 80’s. Before I started my FBG was ranging between 95 to 105. The 1st week I did not see any progress BUT I had a feeling it might be the Kefir because I was not ever a milk drinker in the 1st place so I might be reacting to that, so I took it out. I plan to re-introduce kefir once my FBG is stable aroud the low 70’s and see what happens. I also plan to add honey on my night servings of potato starch.
Good point Ninjas, my lowest reading this week 96, was when I was taking PS spread throughout te day in water only. The higher readings followed a blend of PS and yogurt or kefir. I will switch back to water (ack!) and see how I do. ( My baseline has normally been around 105).
as a computer programmer, when too many variables are involved it gets tough to debug the program. so limit the variables as much as possible to see what happens and add 1 variable at a time to eliminate the offending variable.
is a sense our body is a biological computer and our genes/dna is a biological programming.
Adriana, that is almost precisely my experience.
I also want to note that I cooked a fairly good sized yam this morning, slathered on a bunch of sour cream with PS added, and my BG reading shot up a dramatic…10 points…and then came right back down, so basically almost no effect. Previously that would have been a 30-40+ point rise.
I’m by no means an every day checker. I’m the guy who would rather eat lead for lunch than obsess. But, I check sometimes. I’m kinda lazy about getting starch in. I’ve been LC for so long it’s kinda hard and requires specific focussed change.
So, while still mostly LC, FBG was usually 120-130 when I’d check. Curiously, if I checked a few hours after waking, always 80s. RS brought that down maybe 10 points and starches, as I’m just recently making sure they are eaten regularly and now the RS is having the effect others have seen.
This Is probably why I f-bombed the podcast I did this morning (with the hosts permission). It should be up Monday or Tuesday.
Only a week into the RS experiment. Better sleep, worse skin (rash). Will take that trade off for now. More data needed.
@Charles
Wow, you should tell this to Jimmy and other LCers. They won’t listen to me. Perhaps someone doing LC for about as long as Jimmy has been alive.
Excellent. Keep us updated.
Right now I’m working on a couple of guys in the “community” whom I know he would listen to. I’m just an anecdote. One of them is experimenting and if he gets results that would make a big impression.
We’ll see.
This has probably been linked before, but sources for dried plantains or green plantain flour anyone?
Fufu de platano is a typical Cuban dish made by mashing cooked green plantains, similar to mashed potatoes. I knew I had seen packaged Fufu at our mega ethnic supermarket here in Atlanta (Buford Highway Farmer’s Market). I took a look at the ingredients yesterday and found that the only brand they carried had several different starches, some modified AND potato flour in the ingredient list, so that one is a resounding NO. Others have mentioned buying it on Amazon.com. Just be careful to check out the ingredients to be sure it is 100% plantain.
Chiming in to confirm sleep benefits but I do not know if this gas is worth it.
Chiming in to confirm sleep benefits but I do not know if this gas is worth it. But I will push through. This is overall a useful personal experiment.
I am still doing a table spoon or so of ghee in the morning which was inspired at least in part by the K2 mk-4 posts. And in further TMI, I do think that after a good RS sleep something appear to be already have arisen!
Pat, have you checked fasting BG? How about the difference in glucose spikes from other foods? There are a bunch of things RS does seen, and many not seen. The point is, do you want a healthy gut, or not? Excessive fartage is a possible sign it’s not. Mine has diminished to normal.
Gut microbiota and cortisol (apologies if this has been linked to previously ): http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v13/n10/fig_tab/nrn3346_F1.html
So there is a relationship and a feedback loop.
I was convinced after reading a mother jones article and then from your posts, anecdotes, and links to articles. I do not have access to BG tools but am a pretty healthy dude otherwise and am Irish (well, half) so eating more potato related products is fine with me. They are not bad, just too frequent. Will wait it out!
As noted previously we may be redefining normal fartage.
Charles – Which could be encouraging news for men who like to indulge in impressive impromptu parlor tricks!
hey! i only have a few words to say: Vive la France 😀
Seriously, sat fats and starches ? That’s us!
ELMM, that comment about Jimmy was rude. No body is trashing your ability to understand or be open to things based on your perceived worldview.
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. There’s plenty of evidence of health issues from extended ketosis that can’t be solved by RS.
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/08/carbohydrates-and-the-thyroid/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/zero-carb-dangers/
Most of those issues have nothing to do with RS. But, if your main focus is brain hacking, I can see how those health issues are secondary concerns.
@DuckDodgers
“Not sure how you come to that conclusion. There’s plenty of evidence of health issues from extended ketosis that can’t be solved by RS. ”
My mistake, I forgot to include the key word.
If you can include RS, with a cyclical ketogenic diet, that’s probably the best option for overall health. That’s what I meant.
I don’t see that you’d need to do CKD (although it definitely has advantages over a standard KD) to gain the benefits of RS; simply supplement with potato starch, which has zero usable carbs, doesn’t kick you out of ketosis and no effect on BG.
Ok, but I still don’t know how you come to that conclusion. If people get glucose deficiencies — as outlined in those links (which apparently you didn’t read) — I don’t see how or why a cyclical ketogenic diet would be “the best option for overall health.” Again, I think it’s mainly for brain hacking, as far as I can tell. There’s no evidence that it supports “overall health”.
Dude, there’s a ton of evidence that ketosis supports overall health.
Go look.
4 tbs a day (6 days a week) of PS has knocked me off my plateau – I was shocked when I looked at the scale the other day (maybe I need to gain a bit of weight back) and I am incredibly lean and muscular and have done nothing more than add PS to my routine of IF and a diet of meat, vegetables, oil (for cooking),nuts and supplement (with some white rice, a bit of fruit, and sometimes dessert on the weekends). I won’t have any holiday poundage to lose in 2014 🙂 It isn’t overnight however – I started the PS along with everyone else at the first post regarding RS early in 2013 and it has only been in the last few weeks that these results have become more dramatic.
“Dude.” I did. And I didn’t find much other than neurological and brain advantages and some water weight loss — which is what Asprey focusses on. I didn’t find much on immunity and peripheral health. I’m sure you believe that there is lots of evidence, but I haven’t found much.
And I mean long term evidence. Not the 4 month crap that helps people migrate away from SAD diets.
So you ignored the benefits to epileptics and cancer patients?
Sure, maybe you’re not an epileptic or a cancer patient, but what about the fact that the heart also runs 28% more efficiently on ketones? (See
You sure you’ve done proper due diligence?
“So you ignored the benefits to epileptics and cancer patients?”
What part of “neurologic and brain” is not associated with epilepsy.
And yes, cancer is a deal too, especially brain cancer. Again…. what he said. My problem is the prophylaxis bent of the LC movement. Increasingly, they are becoming like vietnamese bar girls in the 60s and 70’s who think that because antibiotics cure the clap, you ought to just take them al the time.
“but what about the fact that the heart also runs 28% more efficiently on ketones?”
Who really knows? Do you have an actual heart problem? I can get my car to run a lot more “efficiently” with every input with ease. There’s a lot of BMW performance shops around here. Thing is, I’m looking for longevity.
Epilepsy is neurological, so I already mentioned that. Cancer is a good one.
I’ll create a list. Help me out:
Benefits of Ketosis:
– Water weight reduction
– Neurological enhancements/protection (epilepsy, Alzheimer’s, etc.)
– Heart efficiency
– Cancer treatment
What else? (Help me out).
Here are some potential negatives:
– Reduced immune response (Mucus/mucin deficiency)
– Poor inure/wound response (hyaluronan reduction)
– Poor thyroid
– Promotion of fungal infections (ketones become super fuel for eukaryotic organisms with mitochondria)
– Adrenal fatigue
– Rising fasting blood sugar (dawn effect)
– Reduced glucose tolerance over long term
Sounds like ketosis is just ideal for certain individuals who are focussing on certain aspects of health — not overall health.
The supposed cancer benefit of ketosis is a mixed bag. No doubt cancer patients improve when sugar and refined carbs are eliminated. But the issue here is the mucin wipe out that leaves the gastrointestinal tract exposed. Paul Jaminet mentioned that and I thought Paul was overstating his case since his examples were those from Poland, who typically consume pig innards like sausages. But if you think about it, he’s right. You can’t get the butyrate or SCFA going meaningfully on an Optimal Diet like these Poles were on. The same probably with Neil Grove whose cause of mortality was never made public but everyone knows he had a relapse of colorectal cancer. Hate to put it this way. Ketosis is probably not the way to go for stomach/esophageal/colorectal cancer because of immune deficiency and butyrate underproduction. If you insist, you might want some PS.
Oh.. and the whole reason we are talking here…Ketogenic diets are, by definition, low in fermentable carbohydrates. So, that in and of itself suggests that fermentable carbohydrates play a key role in overall health — particularly from an evolutionary standpoint.
Honestly, when you look at the clues — the pros/cons of ketosis — it seems like ketosis is an awesome backup fuel that targets the most important organs when you are starving (heart and brain) at the expense of lesser important peripheral organs and immunity that are a lower priority when food is scarce. If you’re into “brain hacking” or performance enhancements, I can totally see why it would be fun to play with ketones. Just know that it’s not all fun for “overall health”.
Cody, how are you fingers and toes? Cold yet? You’ve listened to guys like Feynman and Perlmutter too much, who are clueless on the gut microbiota. These guys only looked at cholesterol, blood sugar and weight loss and these are the only criteria being used by low-carbers to evaluate health.
That is a huge problem because as we’re finding out, low-carbing leads to a host of health issues that are not readily apparent via biomarkers. One of this is is neurotransmitter dysregulation — neurotransmitter deficiency like low dopamine is associated with the onset of Raynaud’s, which could start immune-related issues in many, especially those with family history of autoimmuen issues. Just about everyone I know who’s low-carbed for a long time have cold fingers. Jimmy Moore admitted that he has it. This is just one example but there are many other issues that are way more serious in terms of immune and hormonal health. I’d go far as to say you can make a prima facie case for legal damage if you actually were treated by low-carb physicians and ended up symptoms like these and autoimune issues.
[…] Here's where that title quote came from: […]
You all certainly jump to a lot of conclusions about the diet I follow.
Where did I once say that I thought people should be in ketosis 24x7x365.4?
I was simply wondering where is this evidence for cyclical ketogenic diets being the best for “overall health” — it just seems to be a hack for improving brain/performance.
“You all certainly jump to a lot of conclusions about the diet I follow.”
That’s false. Every comment has been about your erroneous statements. Filed: backtracking.
Kayumochi
That is awesome outcomes you report on leanness and recompositioning. What probiotics, fermented foods and sources of soil (organic vegetables, homemade kraut, pets, green thumb, etc) do you have exposures to you, I wonder? Of course I’m asking about ‘seeding’ the gut. I’m sure you are aware that Tim ‘Tatertot’ Steele does a spectrum of dirt related activities prior to the AmGut with RS:
–gardening
–minimally washed homegrown organic vegetables
–homemade kraut
–etc
Charles
That’s great to be reminded of the cortisol connection with the brain-gut axis! It is too bad that modern conventional medicine has little rehab when when we have broken HPA/cortisol. I think it is so neato that fixing the gut repairs the HPA almost instantly and so completely. Who knew that the gut would be so central to everything.
I’d love to measure everyone’s pre- and post-testicular size on RS + SBO probiotic experiments. You guys want to help me out?
Here is a rodent study where testicle size increased with yogurt consumption (hat tip: Keith Bell). Yes — I told Richard already about it and awaiting his PALEO KING THOUGHTS…
On yogurt, male rodents had larger testicles and ‘more rodent swagger’, females were more fertile and weaned their babies more successfully. LOL No RS but decent (SBO strains? who knows) microbiota results which remind me of FTA here.
Remember granted these rodents probably
–DID NOT GET ANY ANTIBIOTICS in their mini lifetimes.
–did not eat CAFO meat that has antiobiotics
–did not eat SAD eggs full of antibiotics from chickens that ate pesticide covered soy and grains
–did not eat grains covered in pesticides
–ate their cagemates poop (coprophagy occurs in rodents, and not controlled or accounted for in studies)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=real-males-eat-yogurt
Grace, can you take a look at Ashwin Patel’s post because I think you are best positioned to respond.
“I’d love to measure everyone’s pre- and post-testicular size on RS + SBO probiotic experiments. You guys want to help me out?”
I’ve put out the word for volunteers on Facebook and Twitter.
[…] it continues, mostly on […]
Richard, I have the biggest balls except they are not visible to the naked eye. 🙂 They are virtual balls.
Grace: Got to the endo today. ‘sfunny. fT3 is still at the lower limit. Testing done in January, July and December. Didn’t budge. She says to me that the test for fT3 is not very accurate. I guess it’s extremely accurate in its inaccuracy. 😉
So she’s added Cytomel.
First of all, either I don’t change T4 into T3 or the 125mcg dose is too low. Neither LDN nor RPS has made any difference unfortunately. TSH was 0.6. But the pituitary gland can use T4 and if that’s normal range, then it doesn’t send signals. Also there may be an HPA lack of communication.
I feel more alert with the RPS. But so far it has not helped with the muscle pains. I had a physiotherapist check me out earlier this summer. She said I have a very strong back. But the muscles run out of juice and then they cramp and hurt. Onwards.
Cortisol will not be tested again until June 2014.
RPS will continue. LDN will continue.
“Richard, I have the biggest balls except they are not visible to the naked eye. 🙂 They are virtual balls.”
Aren’t ovaries the female equivalent? If so, they’re bigger than testicles, I think.
I’m really glad they’re not dangling in a skin sac under the flower, though. 🙂
The visuals are somewhat killing me.
False my ass Richard.
Reread what I actually typed. Out loud if you need to.
There are health benefits associated with ketosis. To claim otherwise is a lie. And Ketosis can be achieved with a fairly wide range of carb intake. I’m not site what crawled up your butt, but I’m not the dog you’re gonna kick.
“There are health benefits associated with ketosis.”
And I have named them over and over.
There are health benefits with taking antibiotics, too. Doesn’t mean it’s a “healthy antibiotic lifestyle.” This is the enormous blind spot with LC/Keto. The unjustified leap from the fact that it’s therapeutic (obesity, diabetes, neurological, cancer, etc) to it’s an optimal lifestyle.
It is most certainly not. I read every comment that comes to the blog, and I get dozens of emails per day, huge percent from people who have been “livin’ la vida” for years, even decades, and have a host of unresolved problems. And lately, some of them resolve all of them in just a few weeks on PS. Just got a comment from a 20 year diabetic who’s now eating mashed potatoes and has the best fasting BG in 20 years.
Here.
https://www.facebook.com/rnikoley/posts/10151908492121137
Now, shove that up your ass and everything else, and try to work it out.
“The visuals are somewhat killing me.”
Oh, you have no idea. I wouldn’t even call mine a “visual.” It was a flash, dismissed out of mind as soon as possible. 🙂
Gabriella. Have you tried adding in magnesium for your muscle pain. Tight muscles are usually a sign that you don’t have enough mag..
Gabriella, Cytomel should work as long as you remember to take it. It lasts for about 8 hours per pill. But that’s good. I’d rather take that than Armor. I don’t know what symptom you’re trying to reseolve. But that could fix low body temp and cold fingers.
Your endo might be right about the FT3 not being accurate. It’s the pituitary FT3, not tissue FT3. So they might not correlate and that’s why TSH is not regarded as accurate for the metabolically deranged. But in your case, your FT3 is low and if you have hypothyroid symptoms, your tissue FT3 would also be low.
Gabriella
I’ll look (and search) Ashwin Patel and write.
On the other thread, I’ll post…
https://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/comments-resistant-fodmaps.html
@DuckDodgers
“Ok, but I still don’t know how you come to that conclusion. If people get glucose deficiencies — as outlined in those links (which apparently you didn’t read) — I don’t see how or why a cyclical ketogenic diet would be “the best option for overall health.” Again, I think it’s mainly for brain hacking, as far as I can tell. There’s no evidence that it supports “overall health”.”
Yeah, and exactly how do you get a glucose deficiency on a cyclical ketogenic diet? You would consume significant starch, once or twice a week, more depending on activity levels. And you’re not on a zero-carb diet the rest of the time, as you still eat up to 60 grams of carbs and remain in ketosis.
From what I’ve read ketosis has benefits for the brain, mitochondria, effects with anti-aging, as well as benefits with increasing/maintaining lean mass. Ketosis naturally comes with an ample amount of fat, especially saturated, as well as cholesterol and other nutrients found in fat that benefit not just your brain, but your entire body.
So when I said that a cyclical ketogenic diet with the inclusion of RS would probably be the best diet for overall health, I was very much interested in the benefits RS would bring to that approach.
You just latched onto my use of the word ketogenic, and thus began your battle with the boogeyman that is ketosis.
Although to be fair, you did first attempt to convince yourself that Asprey could not possibly figure out how to consume RS properly, and was destined for failure due to his preoccupation with the performance of his brain.
People overlook the fact that it’s all about the marketing angle with JM (‘truth’ is well and good whenever possible, but hardly necessary). If RS somehow dovetailed with his current keto message – and book project – he’d be pimping the hell out of it.
i think SAD is worse than Atkins for the gut.
as long as one still eat plenty of veg (esp. fermented)
(but i got your gist).
cheers,
For the simple reason that consuming “significant starch” once or twice a week will still result in a glucose deficit. The details can be found here (read it this time):
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/10/jimmy-moore’s-seminar-on-“safe-starches”-my-reply/
Don’t bother replying until you’ve read that.
Dr. Curmudgeon Gee, on SAD, you can develop chronic diseases at a leisurely pace. On Atkins/ketosis the pathogenic speed accelerates, especially for immune and hormone related dysfunction. Your WBC count drops immediately upon ketoing. If you doubt, check your blood counts. That, and the ultimate symptom appearance, along with seropositivity of autoimmune antibodies, makes ketosis the most risky diet there is. Think of SAD as the country road to destruction. VLCing is the superhighway to self-destruction.
The problem here is that the clueless LC community cannot connect the dots because of the apparent benefit of weight loss and blood sugar control when VLCing. Those benefits are outweighted by a huge downside risk, especially if you’re genetically vulnerable (HLA B27). Autoimmunity is almost automatic when you’re ketoing for such people. I’ve seen this many times. Yet it’s difficult to diagnose let alone test for autoimmune diseases. Most GPs are clueless. And conventional medicine still thinks the problem with VLCing is cholesterol-related. It’s immune-related. Autoimmunity is the second cousin of VLCing and once you contract an autoimmune disease, it brings its friends, then their friends and so on. That’s the autoimmune cascade. The sudden appearance of food allergies when you’re drinking bone broth and coconut oil everyday is the telltale sign.
Soon, someone pissed off enough could initiate a lawsuit that could put most low-carb MDs out of business. All that would take is connecting the dots.
Going on a cyclical ketosis is based on the idea that our ancestors were in a state of mild ketosis constantly. I’m not so sure about that. Gary Taubes and Perlmutter are getting a lot of mileage out of that one.
I would say being in mild ketosis was probably the case for hunter-gatherers. So possibly was during the Neolithic period, as food simply wasn’t plentiful and people starved. Combine that with the apparent benefit of intermittent fasting and it would seem like being in cylical ketosis recreates our ancestral eating habit … i.e., we were too poor, our food sources too unstable to eat 3 square meals consistently.
It then becomes a caloric restriction phenomenon. You go from consuming 5000 kcal during harvest to 1100 when there is a draught. The thrifty gene must have evolved in that milieu (c.f., the Pima Indians).
But is intermittent caloric restriction ideal? That really is the question. Because intermittent ketosis is de facto intermittent caloric deficit at least during the Neolithic and Pre-Industrial periods. I would say being in mild ketosis when you can’t eat consistently might not be harmful. But is that an optimal state? On what basis? The supposed benefits here are once again couched in terms of blood sugar control, cholesterol, and weight loss, along with autophagy. Because, sadly, that’s all these low-carbers know. We simply don’t know the implications of highly irregular feeding habits as far as immune and hormonal issues are concerned. Who knows, perhaps the frequent turnover of the gut flora might be beneficial just like autophagy is. But starvatiom has immediate immune implications, that’s the concern.
@SP
I really can’t imagine not going periodically with hunger. No need to go into it. I’ve blogged on it many times.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=autophagy
There is really no real way to approach “optimal” other than from the perspective of the evolutionarily given. Crap builds up, which makes perfect sense (look at your kitchen and house in general). What do you do? You clean daily and ever now & then, go all out.
What you really have to demonstrate is that the evolutionarily given….episodic hunger…is absolutely and unequivocally bad.
“But is it optimal” is just arbitrary bullshit and pussy easy.
@DuckDodgers
“For the simple reason that consuming “significant starch” once or twice a week will still result in a glucose deficit. The details can be found here (read it this time):
link to perfecthealthdiet.com
Don’t bother replying until you’ve read that.”
192 from ketones + 200 from glycerol + 240 from eating starch = 632 calories without any gluconeogenesis. Going by his numbers.
That’s not on the once or twice over feed days that I mentioned. That’s just a regular day. If I was convinced that I would develop all the problems you mentioned previously, I would consume a little more starch everyday. But from what I can tell, it’s just not going to happen.
@MC,
Jaminet’s entire article is a detailed defense of “400 carb calories per day” — and that’s the low end, for a woman or small male. So, to say that you used “his numbers” and came to a conclusion of 240 calories from starch means you read it wrong. Try again.
And secondly, you are arguing with a group of people who already had long term problems from LC and sought refuge with a good dose of starches.
@Spanish Caravan,
thanks.
i didn’t know the relation between autoimmune & VLC. but it makes sense if the gut flora is destroyed, naturally the immune system would be weakened.
i have never been on Atkins. (my diet is pretty close to PHD + WAP)
my understanding is Atkins diet has many phases. you’re not supposed to stay on VLC (ketosis) forever. eventually there should be maintenance phase when higher starch is allowed. yes?
so perhaps there should be a qualifier about what “Atkin diet” for the discussion of its damage of
regards,
That’s true, Dr. Curmudgeon. Atkins has its induction phase where they recently made it recently optional. And the induction phase is only temporary. So Atkins is relatively benign compared to long-term ketosis some of these guys are advocating. Actually, I’ve been doing some more reading. I don’t think autoimmunity is the only byproduct of long-term ketosis. It looks like immune deficiency is the other side of the same coin. You could take the autoimmune path or you could take the immune deficient path. I’ve investigating claims that the WBCs fall during ketosis, sometimes drastically. I think that’s accurate. I’ve checked my blood records and they fell about 50%. And there’re similar tales of this.
Check this out at Robb Wolf’s site:
http://robbwolf.com/2013/09/02/episode-198/
No doubt this was a low-carb Paleo that was implemented. 2.7 is low. That’s automatic deficiency of lymphs and neuts. Sorry, low-carbers. Your WBCs are just not into you.
[…] retrospect, I don't know exactly why I went after my longtime friend so publicly and sternly (here and here). I suppose I like to think that it's because that's what I got out of listening to […]
@DuckDodgers
“Jaminet’s entire article is a detailed defense of “400 carb calories per day” — and that’s the low end, for a woman or small male. So, to say that you used “his numbers” and came to a conclusion of 240 calories from starch means you read it wrong. Try again.”
240 calories from 60 grams of starch. 200 calories from glycerol is just the number he gave. 288 calories from ketones using his 60% of 480 for the brain (I mistakenly typed 192 previously).
Now if fasting, 600 calories is what he gave as absolutely needed, otherwise he said 800.
My number of calories that are, or replace glucose, are 728 calories.
This is without putting gluconeogenesis, lactate, pyruvate, and alanine into the equation at all. So if you want to conclude that I’m glucose deficient on my diet, can you point to what mistake I’m making with my numbers above? Do the 288 from ketones not count?
“And secondly, you are arguing with a group of people who already had long term problems from LC and sought refuge with a good dose of starches.”
Well you’re arguing with me by yourself… But I don’t know the details of LC for you. LC can mean a lot of things, from high protein, low calorie, too low in fat, extremely low carb (zero starch), no carb refeeds. There’s a lot that could be “LC.”
@Spanish Caravan,
Is there any evidence of a falling WBC during ketosis for those with a WBC that is chronically too high? If so, could ketosis be considered therapeutic in that case?
@MC,
He’s saying that you need to consume between 400-600 calories from starch — not the total glucose your body makes. The ketones don’t count because they are already factored into that minimum glucose requirement.
“Net glucose needs”
So, you’re only producing/consuming 728 calories that replace glucose utilization of the 800 to 1000 calories per day that a sedentary person requires, you’re not getting enough glucose. The 600-800 net calories you need from starch and GNG is calculated after the offsets from glycerol, proteins etc. And we subtract 200 for GNG, which brings us to 400-600 from starch.
That’s what I’m trying to convey. The entire article — and his entire book — is about defending the position for consuming 400-600 calories from safe starches. And you would be on the high end of that starch consumption if you are a decent sized male.
@DuckDodgers
He should be more detailed.
You may be right about the daily deficit, but I find it difficult to imagine we need 100 grams of starch everyday, or we start experiencing all the bad health effects that have been mentioned.
I can’t imagine we were living in some sort of sweet potato land throughout our evolution. A short term glucose deficit might not mean much of anything when you get one or two carb refeeds. Symptoms are probably from a long term glucose deficit.
@MC,
100 grams of starch?? Again, it’s more like 400-600 grams of carbs from starch/day (why is this so hard?)
The effects are long term. You don’t notice them except over the long term. Feel free to ignore the countless low carbers who have seen dramatic benefits from adding in a bit more starch into their diets. Jaminet has been keeping a detailed record here:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/reader-results/
Most of Jaminet’s audience is seeking refuge from low carb Paleo. If you read through the results, you will find many Paleo low carbers who have seen dramatic benefits from consuming 400-600g of carbs/day.
It’s a common mistake. However, there is very good evidence that our ancestors feasted on carbs from roots, bulbs, tubers and corms.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gtQyAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PR1&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q&f=false
And given what we are discovering about Resistant Starch, it should be more than obvious that there is a dietary need for roots, bulbs, tubers and corms. I mean, come on, think about it. Our ancestors weren’t doing Keto with bags of potato starch to feed their microbiome. Low carbers in general tend to have poor microbiomes.
But, why would you give yourself a glucose deficit if you have health problems or are striving for overall perfect health? Again, it’s mainly for performance and brain hacking. There’s certainly no evidence a cyclical glucose deficit ideal for “overall health”. Every disease-free traditional culture that ever walked the face of the earth ate good amounts of carbs, except for the tiny minority that didn’t have access to them and adapted with high fat diets. Some ate as much as 85% carbs and lived exceptionally long, disease free lives.
Most followers of Asprey tend to be young (he’s a “cool” guy). After you reach a certain age, your body doesn’t hold up as well with stressful diets. So, enjoy it while it lasts 🙂
Whoops… My bad.. not 400-600 grams of carbs. Now you’ve got me confused 🙂 Yes 100 – 150grams of carbs. It really does make a difference for a lot of people. Sorry about the mixup (thought you were saying calories in my head).
Kayumochi, chronically high WBCs are implicated in insulin resistance, obesity, prediabetes/diabetes and high triglycerides. High WBCs(like 8-10) reflect inflammation. So your WBCs should fall once you go on a ketogenic diet. The question, how much does it fall and how low does it fall? For some, I’ve been seeing they fall too much, resulting in immune deficiency. That questioner asking Robb Wolfs is one example. She may have had a pre-existing issue so her WBCs were low to begin with. But probably a low-carb Paleo cut her WBCs even further. She’s close to the level where she’ll need to be referred to a hematologist for cancer screening. The downside risk here is that immune deficiency could spawn systemic or chrnoic immne deficiency, and such conditions often lead to more serious outcome, like lymphoma. Lymphoma is the common cause of death for those suffering from multiple immune deficiency like CVID. So that’s another concern I have about lonog-term ketosis. We really don’t know exactly the immune implications of this unproven and unvetted diet. I can tell you one thing, some of the low-carbers that Jaminet describes who died from cancer and along with some other cancer occurrences among low-carbers that I’m familiar with make me wonder about this potential cancer and ketosis link. It’s nost just colorectal or gastrointestinal cancer.
@Spanish Caravan
Didn’t know that Jaminet had written about cancer among low-carbers. That is fascinating. Could you provide a link?
@Kayumochi
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-ii-mucus-deficiency-and-gastrointestinal-cancers/
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2010/08/back-comments-section-of-uric-acid-post.html
@Spanish Caravan,
Thanks! Scary stuff.