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The Ominous Duck Dodgers Comment Grace Liu Deleted

She doesn’t want to you to see it in her Jan 23, 2015 comment thread.

Duck Dodgers has left a new comment on the post “Lose Weight, Body Fat, Improve Blood Glucoses and …”:

I’ll try again, P1, and hopefully Grace won’t censor me this time. [The cunt did – Ed].

P1 said: “Duck, can you share some of the points about honey that you have learned?”

For starters, see: Honey as a Source of Dietary Antioxidants: Structures, Bioavailability and Evidence of Protective Effects Against Human Chronic Diseases (Free Download)

P1 said: “I think you are not giving Grace’s points their due. She is just objectively pointing out which types of fibers feed known good families of bacteria, and she is also pointing out that RS2 largely feeds bacteria that are harmful.”

I’m sorry, but the evidence that’s been presented has been extremely weak and was mostly conjecture if you read it closely.

P1 said: “No one is really responding to or denying the truth of those claims, and she does provide links to research.”

I suggest you read the evidence she presented more closely, and with a critical eye. The studies often do not reach the same conclusions being presented here.

P1 said: “If you accept those claims”

I’ll stop you right there. Saying that something feeds “bad” bacteria or “good” bacteria is mostly marketing speak. Just about any food feeds “bad” bacteria. And there has been no discussion as to what levels of “bad” bacteria are helpful.

Raw honey often contains spores of some very pathogenic bacteria and pathogenic yeasts. Is that a reason to avoid honey given that is seems to provide significant benefits to those who consume it?

P1 said: “I think it is pretty fair to ask what would be the presumed health benefit of taking large amounts of RS2? And I think it is quite appropriate for her to evidence that question by further pointing out that recent human trials of RS2 fail to meet good endpoints.”

The evidence in those studies is rarely as conclusive as it’s been presented in Grace’s posts. Again, it’s mostly conjecture. Secondly, nobody advocates “high doses” of RS2 anymore. So, I fail to see what the point of these posts are about.

P1 said: “The dose makes the poison in all things, but the fact that everything has a toxic dose isn’t really a response to her post.”

Actually it is. You could literally write the same exact series of posts using any food, fiber or liquid.

Cheers.

What a laf. That’s too much for her, even after she tried—in Fake Doktor ways—to claim Duck has chronic fatigue syndrome and how’s that going in light of PS consumption (both are actually false).

Tell you what, go leave respectful, critical comments but copy them. If they get deleted, email to me and I’ll post every single one, so long as they meet the respectful criteria. Slinging shit is my job, so don’t encroach.

I’m still working on another post about honey that will be up soon.

Finally:

cunt
 

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More

12 Comments

  1. gabkad on January 28, 2015 at 16:36

    That is a Brazilian cunt cake. Grace is ‘au natural’……well based on boob hangage, hair ‘do’…don’t…..Not sure if she lifted her arms so don’t know if she’s gone full out all body microbiome. She should though. That would be consistent with ‘feeding the good bugs and starving the bad bugs’.

  2. Amy on January 29, 2015 at 15:52

    Sorry to hear no one is recommending high doses of RS any more. I’m a noob who thought she’d read all the RS posts here but apparently not, since I don’t understand why no high dose unless it’s maybe more correct to say “Not recommending high-dose RS in perpetuity any more.”

    I’m having pretty good results with bolus dosing high doses of the Bob’s potato starch. O’course I won’t be doing boluses forever (probably pulse them in perpetuity like I’ve seen recommended here) but I think they can definitely be of benefit for some days in a row. I’ll find out soon how many days in a row. 🙂

  3. tatertot on January 29, 2015 at 16:56

    Amy – I think that everyone involved saw value in adding other fibers to the mix.

    I have no hesitation in saying that 2-4TBS of potato starch a day is NOT harmful in any way, unless you have some pre-existing gut problems, in which case you’ll know right away if PS is for you or not.

    I think were the ‘split’ started was when people wanted to eat a very low carb diet and potato starch was their only fiber source. This was never a plan anyone advocated, but many people were interested and asking about it, and many people tried it. No one was ever harmed so far as I know.

    The thing is potato starch opened up the whole world of prebiotics for us, a place that was prior shrouded in mystery and marketing tricks.

    I think potato starch has great value as a cheap, easily accessible fiber that has proven results and can be made at home. No other prebiotic has those same distinctions.

    But for the long-haul (and you have the rest of your life to get this right), it’s no doubt best to try to get a wide variety of prebiotic fibers from real food, supplementing as desired.

    I tend to want to err on the high side in fiber intake, so I supplement with 2-3TBS of potato starch, inulin, and a some other cheap supplemental prebiotics almost every day. Some days I’ll eat a small raw potato or green banana instead. I think it’s not worth worrying too much about once you’ve started incorporating prebiotics into your life. It actually just sort of becomes automatic.

    • Duck Dodgers on January 29, 2015 at 21:27

      Good points, Tim!

      I did great on bolus doses of PS, but these days I usually just get my fiber from whole foods. So I try to eat a green(ish) banana every day (~15g RS2, I think), maybe a cup of legumes (~15g fiber), maybe I’ll snack on 3 dates (~6g fiber), or a kiwi fruit (3g fiber) and I eat my potatoes and sweet potatoes—cooked and cooled when possible—, etc. etc. I’m not perfect every day, but I don’t sweat it. It’s eating well and enjoying your food that’s the real key.

      It’s fairly easy to get darn close to the Daily Recommended Intake (DRI) of fiber once you start familiarizing yourself with the different high-fiber plants. Most supermarkets have a small exotic fruits/vegetables table and it’s fun to explore the foods being displayed there. Pepino melons, prickly pear, boniatos, papayas, and so on.

      The scientists/organizations who determine the DRI say that women need a little less fiber than men, though this apparently has to do with the fact that women don’t eat as much as men do. The official DRI tables are in the following PDF:

      Dietary Reference Intakes: Fiber

      I believe Tim has said that the DRI is probably a bare minimum of what you want to obtain, but it might be supposed that women may be able to get by with less fiber than men—given that they wouldn’t be expected to eat the quantities of food that men do.

      Like Tim, I don’t believe PS is harmful. The evidence presented to demonize PS has been extremely weak, dishonest, and misleading. Nevertheless, I think it’s important for people to keep in mind that high doses of any prebiotic would be counterproductive for anyone with major gut problems. Of course, this was all communicated long ago (remember ‘weed, seed, feed’). But, I guess that rule no longer applies when someone wants people to believe a long list of fabrications and conjecture.

    • Duck Dodgers on January 29, 2015 at 21:42

      Sorry, the DRI should have read, “Dietary Reference Intake (DRI)”

      The DRI recommendations come from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. You will note that they do not list an upper limit for fiber—the limit is self-regulating. So, I suppose one could even argue that 3 Tbsp of PS isn’t even a “high dose”.

      There really isn’t much evidence that “high doses” of fiber is harmful. Nevertheless, no one really advocates getting all your fiber from a bag of BRM either. Your best bet over the long term is to get a variety of fibers from food and just supplement a bit if/when you need to.

    • Amy on January 31, 2015 at 07:53

      Thanks for the clarification, Tim and Duck.

      For the record, I’m at what I see right now as a “loading” period with RS/other fibers. I’ve been experimenting non-mainstream nutrition for a long time, and have found that in the beginning of any corrective action, it can be necessary to compensate for years or decades of poor dietary choices. What I mean by compensate is what others might consider “overcompensate”. But it levels out eventually as things get better.

      It’s also worth noting that I’ve found that things can get worse before they get better, too, and annoying temporary side effects are not *necessarily* signs that something is wrong with your regimen (although they can be signs that something is wrong, and it is during these times that the timeless adage “Know thyself” is never more true). I’m kind of going through that right now with the RS. After the first day the bolus doses kicked up some side effects (gas, bloating, decades-old dormant hemorrhoids flaring up) that I’m currently attributing to lack of good flora and problems in the distal colon and “far parts” of my intestines, that have been kind of beat up and abused in the past. For example, I went through a period in the early 90’s where I experimented quite a bit with colonic therapy. I realize now that the bad depression, weight gain, digestive problems, and some problems with elimination began not long after that. I didn’t connect the two until learning about RS and experimenting a little bit with it myself, but I’m quite sure that the high-powered “butt shooshing” (as my then-boyfriend called it) washed out quite a bit of my beneficial bacteria, which led to an ever-increasing but subtle decline in physical function. Crappy lifestyle and junk food addiction did the rest.

      Aaaanyway…we’ll see how it all plays out. Right now I’m still bolusing for a few more days and then taking a break of less intake. I do know myself and this feels right. I’m also working in some of the other recommended fibers/prebiotics (inulin, FOS, glucommanan, etc.), although my first experiment with them didn’t agree with me particularly. But with the potato starch my blood sugar has gone WAY down, my physical stamina has improved in a very short time (to the point where I pulled a calf muscle because what my body wants to do and what I’m actually in condition to do are two very different things 😉 ), and my mood has stabilized (got a speeding ticket two days ago that didn’t even raise my blood pressure, normally I obsess about stuff like that for hours or days afterwards) to the point where I’m not giving this up. Let the old ‘rhoids swell a little. I’m giving it at least six solid months to see where I’m at then vs. where I was when I started. Time will tell.

      Really grateful to Tim and Richard for starting all this, and to all the others here who have shared their experiences in the comments. It’s all been very, very helpful.

  4. Adrian on February 1, 2015 at 12:02

    I am pretty sure Grace deleted three of Duck’s most recent comments.

    • Duck Dodgers on February 1, 2015 at 12:56

      Indeed, she did. While she resorted to repeating her old lies in response to my now-deleted comments, she apparently didn’t like when I pointed out that using cornstarches, or gelatinized potato starch, to demonize raw potato starch is extremely sloppy—something she and her followers do over, and over, and over again.

      In particular, she didn’t like this review that I posted:

      From: Physiological aspects of resistant starch and in vivo measurements (2004)

      Resistant starch (RS) is the sum of starch and products of starch degradation not absorbed in the small intestine of healthy individuals. There are a number of RS with different characteristics which may have a different fate in the colon. As a consequence, all RS should not be considered equivalent as far as physiological properties are concerned; indeed, they may have a different impact on colonic health. This statement may explain part of the apparent contradictions in the literature on RS and cancer or inflammatory disease prevention. RS is fermented in the large intestine into short-chain fatty acids and, among those, butyrate, which is recognized as the main nutrient of the colonocyte. This fermentation pattern seems to be responsible for most of the effects of RS on colonic health. Another important property is linked to its ability to lower colonic pH, which is usually considered as beneficial for mineral biovailability in the colon or cancer prevention. Due to their fate in the digestive tract, RS materials do not seem to have any significant impact on glucose absorption or metabolism. On the contrary, they may have a hypocholesterolemic effect, but available information is contradictory.

      That review pretty much invalidates most of what she’s written—using the wrong starches and preparations to demonize PS.

      In other words, if the overwhelming majority of studies suggest significant benefits from using potato starch, you can’t just spend all day posting studies about problems with Hi-Maze cornstarch or gelatinized potato starch, and pretend it’s the same thing. It’s not.

      Additionally, I pointed out that her readers posting a lone abstract to a study about potato starch supposedly being completely digested/absorbed by the small intestine, by definition, cannot be “resistant starch.” It’s just semantics. You cannot claim potato starch is “resistant” to digestion and then show that it is easily digested.

      In effect what she and her readers have decided to do is turn into the RS Gestapo. They obviously don’t want to weight all the evidence—the overwhelming majority of which shows significant benefits. Rather, they just want to spend all day looking for the most obscure ways to implicate PS, mostly with conjecture and loose correlations. It’s very sloppy work, and rather dishonest.

      Even Grace’s n=1 is problematic. She neglects to mention the high stress she was under at the time that PS supposedly gave her GERD. We know she lost a book deal, argued with Tim/Richard, burned those bridges, relocated from China, gave an AHS talk, and ran a blog attacking ex-collaborators. It should be obvious that she was under a lot of stress at the time that her GERD flared. But, no, it had to be the PS that caused all her problems.

      Finally, she’s presented a double standard. She now claims that RS will feed bad bacteria (all fibers do, btw) but won’t allow her “Weed, Seed, Feed” philosophy to apply PS anymore. Obviously if PS worsened her SIBO, then she neglected her own advice. A big Face Palm for Grace.

    • Tim Steele on February 1, 2015 at 13:15

      Hey “Adrian” are you sure you aren’t really me? lol

    • Tim Steele on February 1, 2015 at 13:18

      To clarify:

      Blogger Dr. B G said…

      ‘Adrian’ Mmmmhh….

      Is that you Richard? Or alias spammer Groker who spams also Woo and Jimmy…?

      https://twitter.com/HappyViking1/status/548103429365981184/photo/1

      Or is that you Tim S?

      http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/12/gut-guardian-podcast-episode-07.html?showComment=1419030459132#c2758713987721425826

    • Adrian on February 2, 2015 at 14:33

      No I am me, just another mug that went up the garden path with grace for a while, until Richard, you and Duck shone a light on how deceptive and cherry picking she was being, to justify her position. I appreciate all of your efforts. Reading Duck battle it out on Grace’s blog has really brought home how deceived and deceiving people can be and how much value there is in more objective analysis. Cheers

  5. Mic on February 8, 2015 at 16:20

    Hey Richard,

    I recently joined the Paleo way program with Pete Evans and Nora Gedgaudas. In one of her articles, Nora says about RS:

    “What are referred to as “resistant starches” are more commonly and popularly discussed of late. Resistant starches are basically raw, uncooked root vegetables and things like green plantains that contain starch that isn’t digestable by humans (in other words, they aren’t even food for us), but it is believed by some that these can be beneficial to your gut bacteria. They tend not to taste very good and can create even bigger problems in those who have less a healthy gut bacteria profile—a condition called “dysbiosis”. When bad bacteria dominate your gut (and that’s not to uncommon), then feeding those tends to cause even more problems. Many people get bad gas, bloating and discomfort eating these “resistant starches”. Good times. –Hey–whatever floats your boat.”

    And regarding carbs, she quotes Jeff Volek with the following sentence:

    “There is no evidence what so ever the human body has any dietary requirement for the nutrient class of carbohydrate (i.e. there is no defined condition associated with not consuming carbs).”

    I thought you would have found it useful for your next rant about LC diets.

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