scratch-mark

On The Distinction Counter Conflation Of Western Elightenment vs. 7th Century Rapists, unchanged in 1,400 Years

Commenter Amy:

The things I listed are not “ideals”. They are the VALUES that modern Western Civ was built on. They basically came out of the Reformation and then the Enlightenment after Christians decided that the Divine Right of Kings and the excesses of the Catholic Church were a steaming pile of shit foisted on the rest of us by a few charismatic and/or power-hungry megalomaniacs. That’s an oversimplification in the interest of time, but that’s the gist.

These values are always going to be imperfectly applied because humans are by nature imperfect, and also because some humans are hypocrites. They espouse these ideals without believing in them, hoping to ultimately subvert them for their own gain. Sometimes they parrot them without understanding the real significance of what several centuries of simply attempting to attain them has brought to our existence. But imperfection is no reason to stop striving for perfection.

As a result of an imperfect application of Western values, some dummies see only a culture of greedy corporate barons, corrupt politicians/government, commercialization, and a polluted earth as the outcome.

But what I see is a culture where almost anybody can get ahead and be prosperous who’s willing to work hard and never give up…regardless of race, sex, or physical handicap. That’s not true in many places of the world, especially Muslim countries.

I see a culture where women are not chattels and can do what we want with free choice.

I see a culture where childrean are not exploited and pressed into slavery.

I see a culture where the rape of female children and the sexual exploitation of young girls is not only illegal, it’s anathema.

I see a culture where to be homosexual is not cause for shunning, stoning, torture, or death.

I see a culture where an artist is free to disrespect the major icon of the dominant religion by dropping it into a jar of urine, taking a picture, publishing the picture, not fearing that explosives will be sent to his home or workplace, or that his life is in danger. Instead of fearing for life and limb, the artist is feted and celebrated as daring and cutting edge.

Etc.

Of course these freedoms were not always true of Western culture; these things are only true now because of centuries of even imperfect striving to implement the Western values I mentioned above.

And of course Western culture still isn’t perfect; bad things happen every day because there are just a lot of shitty, stupid humans in the world who couldn’t grasp the concept of a higher value or a more just way of being if it slapped them in the face. But to dismiss Western values as irrelevant because they don’t make everything perfect is basically throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It’s foolish and short-sighted. At this juncture in history, it’s also very dangerous.

If you think the real issue for people like me is that Muslims are going to come here and take our jobs or whatever, you’re sadly mistaken. It’s the fact that their culture is fundamentally different than ours, in the most basic of respects.

They don’t believe in equality; they believe in dhimmitude.

They don’t believe in freedom, or freedom of choice; they believe that women and children are essentially the property of men, that homosexuality is a sin against God that should be wiped from the earth, that sex outside of marriage is a legally punishable crime, etc.

But the worst thing is most of them don’t believe in secular government, with application of the law applying equally to all; they believe in sharia law, which is law directly taken from their sacred religious text, and that can ONLY be interpreted and applied through the filter of the religion of Islam, for the benefit of Muslims. Under sharia law women and dhimmis (that’s you and me, GF) are second-class citizens and are not worthy of much consideration. And it is NOT only the Islamic radicals that believe in the application of sharia law. Basically, sharia is the polar opposite of Western law based on Western values, and sharia is so fundamentally inseparable from the religion of Islam itself that most Muslims are fine with all but the very most fundamental, radical interpretation of it.

And please don’t equate the concept of sharia with the fact that many Western laws have their foundation in the Ten Commandments and Judeo-Christian morality. I can see it coming already, and that tired old argument is reductionist, childish, and not worthy of consideration or discussion. Judeo-Christian morality is just fundamental and most humans share the same morality. You don’t steal your neighbors stuff, you don’t fuck your neighbor’s husband, you don’t kill your neighbor, etc. The Ten Commandments generally refer to the things that cause a lot of problems in any community if not adhered to, so they’re fairly universal values. The fact that we owe a cultural debt directly to them is mostly an accident of history. We’d probably have hit upon them anyhow, even if not so eloquently worded.

If Muslims were to come to Western countries like the Irish did the U.S. in the 19th century and assimilate (IIRC from my history, the Irish backlash was over within 40 years because they assimilated very well), all would be well. I’m fine with that. The Irish didn’t want to take over, and they came from the same value system that spawned the U.S. They just wanted a chance to prosper and get along.

But Muslims don’t seem to want to assimilate. Instead, they tend to form tight communities where sharia law is practiced openly and local law is openly flouted.

Do some googling about some of the no-man’s-land neighborhoods in Germany and I think Sweden and a few other Nordic countries. They’re having a real problem.

Google “Paris and Muslim immigration” for some info on the problems they’ve been having there for years.

Do some googling about some things going on in the Muslim community in Detroit, Michigan here in the U.S.

Check out this article http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089 and google “Rotherham rape” for some info on a corrosive, long-standing problem with long-term, insular Muslim communities in your own neck of the woods.

Islam is by doctrine an expansionist, conquering religion. I don’t think most Muslims want to assimilate; they want to take over. They want Islam to be the dominant religion, if for no other reason than they have been steeped in the concept of dhimmitude. They want sharia to be the dominant system of law.

THAT is my problem with Islam and the current crisis. It ain’t skin color. It ain’t the fact that I think they’re inferior or will steal my job or whatever. :eyeroll: It’s the fact that I strongly suspect that most of them, even the moderates, believe I would be better off if I was not a dhimmi filled with the ideals and governed by the laws of the infidel. They don’t want assimilation, they want to change the place they are going, and they will change me and my culture if they can. I won’t roll over and let that happen. Paris or Rotherham in my neck of the woods? Uh-uh.

And I don’t care that Western people have exported culture and been imperialist in the past. That wasn’t me and I refuse to be held accountable for the actions of dead people I never even met, and likewise to pay for their sins. Ditto just because I happen to share a skin color. I repudiate anyone who thinks I should. Western culture ain’t perfect but by and large I’m proud of it. I’m definitely proud to be a part of it.

I’m not a terribly eloquent writer any more, in that I have trouble actually writing out the more complex thoughts I have. I am just now recovering my health after years of debilitating depression and fatigue, and my cognitive function simply isn’t up to par. Some days are better than others but I’ll never be the great thinker or writer that I wish I was.

But I hope that explains where I’m coming from a little better. It’s just an imperfect written representation of some of the things I think. Please know, however, that I don’t really care if you (or anyone) agrees with it. It’s the truth.

Now life calls. I have stuff to do and won’t communicate in this thread any more. I’ll read responses out of curiosity, but I’m done with the argument.

~~~

I think it’s wonderful. What do all you girls think?

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More

77 Comments

  1. Amy on January 8, 2016 at 11:30

    I kind of lied about being done with the argument, too, didn’t I? LOL

    Thanks, Richard. 🙂

  2. marie on January 8, 2016 at 12:11

    “What do all you girls think? ” !
    Well, I think it’s a wonderful description of the advantages of the current state of western culture.
    No arguments there.

    However, I confess to some doubts regarding the state of mind of the majority of Syrian refugees in the “current crisis”, who seem to fall under the blanket term “most Muslims” :
    “I don’t think most Muslims want to assimilate; they want to take over. They want Islam to be the dominant religion, if for no other reason than they have been steeped in the concept of dhimmitude. They want sharia to be the dominant system of law. THAT is my problem with Islam and the current crisis.”

    Amy knows what they want, these people in the current refugee crisis who are dying fighting or fleeing from places where fundamentalists are trying to take over, mostly Syria. They want fundamentalism. Of course.

    • Harriet on January 8, 2016 at 15:44

      Given that 70% of the invasion of Europe are young men of fighting age fleeing the war/home conditions leaving their younger sisters and mothers and babies behind I think these young men are more like fake-ugees and gimmegrants. Close up photos have a woman and children in front. Distance photos show far more than 70% of them being young men. You can’t fool all the people all the time with fake MSM reporting.

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:44

        Dead on, Harriet.

        Bunch of wankers.



    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 20:45

      On average, most Muslims want theocracy.

      That makes them dangerous, and I have nothing for them. They ought be blockaded by the sane world until such time as they become sane. They are 700 years younger than Christianity, a lot more for Judaism.

      With any luck, they’ll come around in a few decades of complete and total isolation, given technology and info-flow.

      See the graphs here:

      http://judgybitch.com/2016/01/08/the-solution-to-germanys-migrant-problem-is-simple-but-not-easy/

  3. marie on January 8, 2016 at 12:30

    Amy, btw, I’m glad you “lied about being done with the argument” and even more so that you eventually went beyond a “drive-by acerbic comment” to actually describe your reasoning. It’s interesting (no sarcasm).
    Meanwhile, if this is what you produce when your ‘cognitive function isn’t up to par’, I know that I for one will be looking for more.
    I just happen to think, partly from personal experience, that you’re brushing with too wide a brush when talking of “most Muslims”.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 20:48

      “Amy, btw, I’m glad you “lied about being done with the argument” and even more so that you eventually went beyond a “drive-by acerbic comment” to actually describe your reasoning. It’s interesting (no sarcasm).
      Meanwhile, if this is what you produce when your ‘cognitive function isn’t up to par’, I know that I for one will be looking for more.’

      Alright, sounds like pillow fight in panties time. Post pics, please.

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 06:28

        In yer dreams, you condescending prick. ;-p ;-p



  4. CL on January 8, 2016 at 13:13
  5. Amy on January 8, 2016 at 13:47

    Marie, thank you! I used strong language but seems like we’re both big enough to give and take it. Cool. 🙂

    This is such a big and complex topic. For me, the thoughts fly around in my head like little birds and then most of ’em fly out again before I can catch them. Sometimes in mid-sentence. Frustrating.

    Anyway, please believe that I honestly don’t want to “brush”. That’s a dangerous and sloppy intellectual habit. It’s also inhumane. But, like Agent K noted in the original MIB, “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals”. The analogy here is that individuals are different than the group, and individuals also behave differently when part of a group.

    Please also know there’s a lot I admire about Islamic culture. The architecture is sublime. The food, jewelry, and clothes. Scimitars. I seriously want one. 🙂

    But I stand by what I said about

    “…strongly suspect that most [Muslims] , even the moderates, believe I would be better off if I was not a dhimmi filled with the ideals and governed by the laws of the infidel.”

    Aside from some things I’ve read that confirm that statement, I just don’t think it’s possible for them not to think this. ALL religious people think the same thing about people not of their religions. My Baptist aunts and uncles definitely all think everyone would be better off Baptist. Especially the Papists and those Methodists. LOL

    The reason I’m concerned about that attitude in reference to the current Islamic refugee influx into Western countries is because of 1) the fundamental nature of Islam and its roots as a conquering religion rather than a proselytizing one (like Christianity), and 2) the apparent (and documented) inability of many if not most of them to assimilate fully into the cultures of the places where they immigrate.

    When Islam conquers a country you either convert or you’re a dhimmi, which means you are on the outskirts of everything. And if you’re a woman dhimmi, forget it. This is a historical fact. And it’s perfectly possible to conquer from the inside out, rather than by invading with weapons. If you swell the population numbers enough, you can accomplish by passive means what might be almost impossible to accomplish by aggression.

    A failure to assimilate means you don’t really consider yourself a part of the culture in which you are living. It’s a deliberate way of not accepting the culture as your own. The fact that many Muslims do not assimilate and live instead in insular enclaves in cities where there are increasing numbers of Muslims who continue to practice sharia law in defiance of local law is also well documented.

    The propensity of other cultures to do stuff this (for example, the Chinese in California in the late 19th century) is not really a concern because most cultures do not actively espouse a conquering, expansionist religious and political philosophy.

    But with Islam these things combined with the current equivocating deconstruction and tepid defense of Western values could well turn into disaster for our cultures within a couple of decades if not mere years. We can look at Nazi Germany in the ’30’s to see that all it takes for the fascists to take over society is for the majority of people in that society to go mushy and weak and do nothing. Which is what a lot of people in Western cultures are now. Most of us don’t have enough sense or understanding of our history and our values to refrain from reflexively and pedantically tearing them to bits with ten-dollar words.

    Sorry for the Hitler reference. I really hate how everything for Westerners seems to circle back around to Hitler. But it seemed apt in this case. 😉

    At any rate, if you read history, the decline of civilizations seems to happen slowly at first, then all at once. There has never been any evidence that more than a handful of people are ever aware enough to identify an actual decline, and then nobody listens to them. Until it very much too late, that is, and everything has gone to shit. Most poor suckers are simply left holding their thumbs and dimly wondering “What happened?!! :(”

    Personally, in this case, given the current cultural differences between the West and Islam, I prefer to be safe rather than sorry.

    • marie on January 8, 2016 at 14:57

      Amy, more to dig into, thanks. But I have to take a break for movie night 🙂
      A quick first note though, when a country has a dictatorship, it’s rather hard to say what the majority wants, don’t you think? See, your Hitler reference works another way too : so you mean even though Nazis took over Germany, Most Germans were not Nazis? The most famous analogy in a Muslim country could be the ayatollahs taking over Iran. Syria might end up that way.
      Anyway, I’m off for tonight, may the force be with you 😉

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:41

        Your biggest conflation, Marie, among others, is that Germany was an industrial power.

        If you chew on that, you’ll come to the proper levels of distinction.



      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 09:02

        “so you mean even though Nazis took over Germany, Most Germans were not Nazis?”

        Yes. From what I’ve read, Hitler was basically a demogogue who took advantage of a weak German economy and some social turmoil (most of which were leftovers from WWI) and played upon the German people’s need to feel proud and successful again. Again, that’s an oversimplification but the gist.

        Anyway, he was a ripe little demogogue who, as is the wont of all demogogues, didn’t reveal his true colors to the majority until he had already consolidated power.

        Of course the smart people saw through him from the beginning, but in short order they were either thrown in jail or killed for their opposition, or had to flee Germany in fear of their lives.

        When the general population who weren’t Nazi’s realized what was going on, it was too late. Well, not too late, as it’s never too late for the a mob with superior numbers to assert their true power, but they apparently weren’t willing to risk anything to band together to change what was happening. So they passively went along. Just like most people do in situations like that. Passivity by the majority in the face of brutality by an armed minority is how most human-engineered atrocities come to be.



      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 09:45

        The left longs for such a “cleansing,” though different targets.

        Deep down, it’s what they want, and I premise a big part of what I do on that.

        And anyone can quibble with me as much as they want, but as east meets west, so does left meet right. So, chew on that before you embarrass yourself with me (speaking to the audience, not Amy).



      • marie on January 9, 2016 at 11:30

        Amy,
        I was needling you with the Nazi analogy, of course Most Germans weren’t Nazis. That’s my point about Muslims in general, that Most aren’t fundamentalists just because fundamentalist oppressors have taken over several of their countries.

        Thing is, I believe there’s a number of issues being conflated in the last discussions. I’m not going to discuss in this comment whether Most Muslims are or are not fundamentalists, nor even if there’s such a thing as a Muslim majority culture rather than many Muslim cultures, because I don’t see any of that as being relevant actually when deciding personally on whether or not to support the Syrian refugees.
        Here’s why:

        Conflation 1 (I’m getting this one out of the way first, it’s only popped up a couple of times) :
        No one should be coerced or forced into helping anyone.
        That has nothing to do with the characteristics of the ‘helpee’, in this case it has nothing to do with the assumed characteristics or beliefs of the Syrian refugees.
        So if anyone wants to claim that natural right in order to not support refugee policies, no problem. There’s nothing to discuss.

        Conflation 2, a conflation of terms: identification of Syrian muslim refugees with muslim fundamentalists.
        This is identification is disproven by just noting the refugees’ basic actions : All that fighting, fleeing and dying to get away from the fundamentalist onslaught.
        “Syrian refugees” = millions who did Not embrace the fundamentalist insurgency in their country.

        Actually, by our own western standards, millions of Syrian refugees, by not accepting religious or other oppression, are proving a dedication to some of our most cherished core values. Just like Iranian refugees did before them.

        I just believe that the video and pictures in this link are better representative of the Syrian refugees than any dirt-scratching fundamentalists. That’s all.
        http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/reporters-notebook/migrants/denmark-refugees

        Maybe the few Syrian refugees coming to the States oughta all be placed in New Hampshire, “live free or die”? 🙂

        The philosophers can debate the ‘diseased core of Islam’ if they want or the statistically inclined may try to find out just how prevalent is fundamentalist adherence throughout the muslim world, but I’m seeing in the Syrian refugees a people who Didn’t join the fundamentalists.
        Do you think I’m wrong about the refugees? Ok, maybe I am. But tell me how.



    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:15

      “‘A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals'”.

      “None of us are as dumb as all of us.”

      http://despair.com/collections/demotivators/products/meetings

      “Sorry for the Hitler reference.”

      It is to be expected.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

      “Godwin’s law (or Godwin’s rule of Nazi analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1″[2][3]—​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.”

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 08:01

        Godwin’s law: LOL Seen that a while back. Forgot about it. thanks for the reminder.



    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:20

      “Personally, in this case, given the current cultural differences between the West and Islam, I prefer to be safe rather than sorry.”

      I truly don’t regard any of this like that. I certainly don’t think it’s safe, particularly, to rant about goat-fucking virgins until rapists until gay savages as I do.

      But it’s what I do when I put my effort to it.

      My interest is in standing up for a culture of general Enlightenment in the world. It’s got warts, but it’s the most marvelous thing that ever happened on planet earth.

      I’m in league with the Greeks, always and forever. It all started there.

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 08:17

        “My interest is in standing up for a culture of general Enlightenment in the world. It’s got warts, but it’s the most marvelous thing that ever happened on planet earth.”

        Yes.

        “I’m in league with the Greeks, always and forever. It all started there.”

        Would prefer not to enact another Thermopylae, though. A lot of back up and superior numbers is preferable from beginning to end.



      • marie on January 9, 2016 at 12:43

        “…standing up for a culture of general Enlightenment in the world”.
        Yes, absolutely. Greek predilection or not.

        But tell me, how enlightened is it to sub-divide cultures down to Western Enlightened and Middle-Eastern oppressively primitive?

        There isn’t any Middle-Eastern Secular (eg.Ataturk, 90 years ago) ? Nor nominal Muslim (same as nominal in any religion) nor any other group?
        That’s all quibbling, right?
        The Majority are “dirt-scratching” savages.
        How the hell do you know this?

        Mostly though, what does it have to do with refugees? The ones dying to get away from the wars brought on by those savages or from the oppressive regimes where the islamic wing-nuts have won.

        I thought I saw some pictures here a while ago of young women in the Shah’s Persia. In mini-skirts. Before the ayatollah’s coup.

        Do you honestly believe Those girls, That society, mostly yearned secretly for the veil and didn’t fight, die or flee the new oppression?
        Most of them aren’t still there, raising daughters or grand-daughters now with the skills to survive in a dictatorship, dropping their veils in their own homes among their friends?

        So “Yes” to standing up for the values of the Enlightenment. By helping those who I see as deserving (a personal decision) I know I am doing that and I won’t character-assassinate anyone who thinks they have a better way to stand up for those values, when that is their honest intent. I might though question their logic. As a wise person said, I won’t lie to you, chéri.



      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 23:55

        “The Majority are “dirt-scratching” savages.
        How the hell do you know this?”

        Observation of their countries. Observation of their contribution to science, enlightenment philosophy, invention, innovation, betterment of the human condition on all levels.

        I see troughs of pig vomit, generally.



      • Richard Nikoley on January 10, 2016 at 00:10

        Churchill’s quote from 117 years ago may just as well be quoted today.

        https://freetheanimal.com/2016/01/the-blame-america-first-crowd-lacks-historical-perspective-on-the-muslim-menace.html

        In coming months, I’ll be digging up a lot more, from a lot more sources. And older.

        And it all points to the same thing. Primitive culture, little to no advancement. Which is fine, but the gulf between them and moderns has reached a point, and I will advocate to preserve the whole of mine and I don’t care what it costs to do that.



      • Richard Nikoley on January 10, 2016 at 00:18

        And here, for a glimpse at how it could have been:

        https://freetheanimal.com/2015/11/american-responsible-radicalization.html



    • Gemma on January 9, 2016 at 02:15

      Amy

      “Most of us don’t have enough sense or understanding of our history and our values to refrain from reflexively and pedantically tearing them to bits with ten-dollar words. ”

      Lost survival instincts?

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 08:20

        I think more like deliberate lack of education and disinformation, to the end we are seeing now. Anyone who thinks they stopped teaching history in K-12 and substituted it with the mostly execrable “social studies” in the late ’60’s because it would actually result in better critical thinking skills and a better education for America’s children is fooling themselves.



  6. Peter on January 8, 2016 at 13:50

    I’m from Detroit and we are happy to have Muslims in our midst. They come from various middle eastern countries, South Asia, and Africa. They do tend to concentrate in certain neighborhoods and municipalities, but that is normal for new immigrant communities. Some of these groups are known for owning gas stations, car repair facilities, and convenience stores. Others have large numbers of physicians, engineers, educators, and tech workers. Arabs first started coming to the Detroit area to work in the car industry in the early 20th century and now their 4th or 5th generation reside here.

    I count a number of Muslims good friends. Their values seems consistent with the best in our society.

    As a bonus, their cuisines are delicious and we have many fine restaurants featuring their food.

    Send us more.

    • Harriet on January 8, 2016 at 15:52

      Do the Muslims around you value women equally to men? Do they let their wives have visitors/go visiting without their husband’s consent on each occasion? Do they require their son’s to screen all the phone calls made to their wives? Is it quietly approved of for any woman not wearing a headscarf to be harrassed? In Australia this is what I am up against. So no, under no circumstances are their values consistent with the best in our society.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 19:45

      How about you take all the Syrians, Peter?

      They’re 1st generation. But you’ve got it covered. Right? You don’t want 4th or 5th. You want 1st, right? RIGHT, fucking liar?

      You’re just full of shit and you know it. And I give no quarter to lying fucking bullshit.

      More fucking conflation.

    • Gemma on January 9, 2016 at 02:05

      Peter

      “send us more”

      Wow. Finally someone who will solve Gemany’s biggest worry: what to do with them. Believe me, the current mood in Germany is such that they would give you all of them, and you could even get Angela Merkel as bonus. Not many Germans would miss her.

      By the way, it seems that Köln attacks mean a tipping point and people are finally less afraid to speak openly. If politicians stop to lie, and if the state finally starts performing its basic duty: protecting its people, that’s a question indeed.

      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 07:48

        Good news, Gemma.

        Politicians will never stop lying, but they can be held to account and hooefully it shifts that way.

        Is there any political/legal process in your consitution to remove a Chancellor from office?



      • Gemma on January 9, 2016 at 13:34

        Remove a Chancellor from office?

        There is a confidence motion, sure, but it is not going to happen, this would take down too many other people with her, it would mean admitting serious mistakes and open way for AfD. So the strategy seems to be to keep her in the office till next election in 2017. Unless some real shit happens and people wake up.



    • marie on January 9, 2016 at 12:49

      Sorry Peter, you can’t have them, New Hampshire wins out over Detroit for their motto alone 🙂
      See my comment in another train above if you’d like :
      https://freetheanimal.com/2016/01/on-the-distinction-counter-conflation-of-western-elightenment-vs-7th-century-rapists-unchanged-in-1400-years.html#comment-749756

    • Steven on January 10, 2016 at 09:47

      Peter,

      My parents are literally off of a boat from the middle east. They left in the 60’s because they wanted opportunity and to get get away from the Muslims.

      My parents settled in the Detroit area as well back in the 70’s but have Roman Catholic roots. What they see is very different than you. They understand what will happen when the Muslims become majority. They know what horrible things they are capable of.

      I suggest you start learning the lessons of those that moved away from the oppression the Muslims cast upon society. I have a very large family and have been to the middle east and I hear all sorts of horrors.

      Do I know lots of westernized Muslims? Yes

      Do I know lots of westernized Muslims that went back to there old ways once they have kids? Yes

      Are the old ways compatible with western philosophy? Not in the least

      Last thing you should be doing is taking the word of the press and start taking the word of people whom have lived through what Muslims have done to them.

  7. John on January 8, 2016 at 14:18

    Richard,

    This is beautiful yin to your yang.

    Amy,

    Have confidence, as the product of your mind is eloquent and articulate.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:28

      “This is beautiful yin to your yang.”

      Well, I got an intellectual hardon for it, so it’s yin, yang, wang. 🙂

      • John on January 9, 2016 at 06:01

        Thumbs up, cocks up.

        Whatever floats your bone!



      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 08:21

        Har. D. ;-p



  8. Peter on January 8, 2016 at 16:23

    There is no “one size fits all” answer to how women are treated in Muslim society. It varies. Many of the physicians and professors I’ve mentioned are women and are in equal relationships. I agree that women are not treated well in many parts of the Muslim world, but those of us who come out of Christian culture would do well to remove the log from our own eye if we are to find the speck in theirs. Most of Christendom was highly oppressive of women until fairly recently in our history and some still have quite a ways to go. I have some history in conservative Christianity and plenty of those people are every bit as behind on this as many Muslims.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:46

      “Most of Christendom was highly oppressive of women until fairly recently in our history and some still have quite a ways to go. I have some history in conservative Christianity and plenty of those people are every bit as behind on this as many Muslims.”

      Bullshit.

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 11:53

        Peter, you said:

        “I do think that some of the recent backsliding on equality in some majority Muslim countries is more due to geopolitical forces than religion. ”

        Honestly, this sounds like a “hedge-y” way of saying that the regression of the liberal aspects of Islam is the fault of the West somehow, instead of stemming the fundamental nature of Islam as set forth by the Koran. Am I correct in this interpretation?

        “The degree that a society secularizes is a pretty accurate predictor of the improvement of the status of women, no matter what the majority religion of a nation. ”

        This is true.

        But a personal belief in God has absolutely nothing to do with being able to reliably and fairly carry out the obligations of secular law. Conflating the individual belief in a higher power with a society and culture controlled in almost every respect by theological texts, and governed and adjudicated by clergy, is a grave intellectual mistake. It leads to sloppy thinking and wrong conclusions.

        Western Christian cultures were basically those societies 300-400 years ago.

        Islamic cultures are those societies NOW.



    • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 09:24

      Peter, it’s true there is no one size fits all in Islamic society. This is true of any society.

      But when you look at the majority of Islamic countries, the liberalization of Islam, espeicially with regards to women, seemed to reach a zenith in the late ’60’s and has been headed downward since. Culture in Islamic countries is much more repressive and less liberal now than in the mid-20th century.

      By contrast, in Western Christian-based cultures, the trend towards liberalization, with regards to women and everything else, has increased dramatically since the mid-20th century. The troglodyte misogynists are definitely in the minority here. There are examples, but they’re not the norm.

      By contrast, the repression of women in Islamic countries, even if the repression is “mild” does seem to be the norm.

      The fact that (just for example, for God’s sake puh-leez don’t make this anecdote all about the hijab :eyeroll:) many of the women required to wear a hijab will, when asked, tell you that they don’t mind wearing the hijab or that they like the hijab, does not in any way change the fact their free choice in the matter has been *taken away*. That’s repression. And it doesn’t matter if the state is repressing or its individual repression (husband requires wife to wear even if the state doesn’t). It’s still repression.

      • Peter on January 9, 2016 at 11:17

        Amy, although I may disagree in degree, I don’t disagree in substance with most of your assertions. I’m not a defender or excuser of the oppression of women that is all too prevalent in Muslim cultures. I do think that some of the recent backsliding on equality in some majority Muslim countries is more due to geopolitical forces than religion.

        The fact is that nearly all world religions, indeed, all cultures have a history of oppression of women and it has been VERY recent that this has significantly changed anywhere. The degree that a society secularizes is a pretty accurate predictor of the improvement of the status of women, no matter what the majority religion of a nation. Perhaps when the President of the United States no longer has to mumble, “And God bless the United States of America” at the end of every speech, we will know we are getting closer to full equality for women.



      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 12:07

        “the liberalization of Islam, espeicially with regards to women, seemed to reach a zenith in the late ’60’s and has been headed downward since.”

        Google images of women in the 60s and 70s in any Middle Eastern country. Even Kabul.

        What everyone gets wrong is that this is the fundamental cause.

        There is no essential other. There is nothing more essential and fundamental in humanity than what turns between a man and a woman.

        The elightenment created a value called gentleman. Its focus was toward women. It get’s smeared, and it has been used nefariously, but it was the first time in the history of the planet where a moral code rose up to make a few critical distinctions, and to really recognize the true wonder of the fairer sex. Hell, it’s even a bit self depricating.

        The Muslim world has great difficulty with not only letting women out of the cages, but actively seeking ways for them to express their wonderful nature openly.

        They will kill millions to prevent it. Those who do not come to grips with those fundamentals are to be dismissed as just too stupid.



  9. Gemma on January 9, 2016 at 02:51

    Some reading about minor history events that sometimes have major influence.
    From Deutsche Welle (in English) – not that I would recommend this site as a source of unbiased information but in this case this official source does not lie (much). Wow, even the comment forum is open.
    Opinion: Official lies

  10. Peter on January 9, 2016 at 04:47

    Richard, I’m surprised that your response to me consists of the powerful arguments of “Liar” and “bullshit.” Although you must have the ability to read my mind, all I can do is assure you that I am telling the truth about what I think. I am strongly in favor of moderately high levels of immigration as an engine of economic growth which will make our nation stronger in the long run, just as it has in the past. Somebody’s got to be having babies to support me and you in our old age. (I assume you’ll be happy to accept your SS in your retirement.)

    You dismiss my real world experience with the Muslims among us. Oh well. I’m sure your blanket characterization of not one culture, but hundreds of Muslim cultures consisting of over a billion people is far more accurate.

    I continue to follow your blog because your iconoclasm not infrequently exposes deserving idols, but on this topic you are not being iconoclastic, rather you’re aping the unreasonable fear of the “other” that unthinking bigots display. We have plenty of those already.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 07:39

      I’m not dismissing your real world experience. I’m saying it’s non sequitur, completely irrelevant.

      Assimilated groups that are several generations in are not refugees nor 1st generation immigrants, or others who have not assimilated.

      I’m not giving any quater whatsoever to this waffling bullshit and I don’t care what anyone thinks about that.

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 08:39

        We do need to stop tolerating it. But for most people coming out of the Western public educational system for the last 50 years, it passes for critical, reasoned thought and insightful analysis. Numbers are not on our side right now.



    • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 07:58

      …And by the way, I have always been a fan of immigration, legal or otherwise, even advocating open borders, borders being an arcane concept.

      I now see I was wrong, and there’s too many unenlightened who will not only not try to assimilate, but will actively resist it, band together, and seek change not only in the culture, but its very jurisprudence based on secular values.

      I’m still a supporter of immigration, though since taxes and welfare are still part of the system, it’s reasonable that tazpayers should not be burdened (and in fact, the burden is high). But that’s a far less concern than people who come in and actively seek and agitate to overthrow the system.

      Political and cultural changes are fine, but they should organically grown out of the evolution of the dominant culture over time.

      There is simply no justification for revolution in either the US or Western Europe, the brightest beacons of light on the planet.

      • Amy on January 9, 2016 at 08:35

        “There is simply no justification for revolution in either the US or Western Europe, the brightest beacons of light on the planet.”

        I wouldn’t go that far, although I definitely agree that the issues that could provoke it from the inside haven’t reached critical mass yet. Good lord willin’ and the crick don’t rise, they never will.

        BUT…anyone coming to this culture FROM THE OUTSIDE, with little to no understanding of Western values, and in fact carrying an active disdain for Western values, who thinks the West needs to change and revolution is the way to do it, needs to stay the fuck where they came from.

        That’s my biggest problem with the more recent (late 20th and 21st century) influx of immigrants. The vast majority of immigrants used to come to the West eager to leave behind the political and social fever swamps they’d known all their lives. They wanted something better. They embraced Western values and laws and all the material benefits that came with them, while at the same time maintaining what was good and unique about their original cultural identities, which thus enriched us all.

        But now many seem to come despising us and our values, believing we need to change into more like what they are leaving, before they even set a foot in the door.

        If you want where you’re going to be more like where you’re leaving, stay your ass HOME.

        BTW, I say the same thing to Californians immigrating to Texas or New Yorkers immigrating to Florida. 🙂



      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 08:42

        Yep, basically what I was talking about, so thanks for expounding opon it, saving me from potential clarifications.

        #ContextIsEverything



      • John on January 9, 2016 at 08:42

        I don’t know how you live in California, Richard. Such a beautiful state, I understand, but damn, the government there. . .



      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 08:46

        And yet, my biggest quotidian pain in the butt is Asian immigrants for whom, bless their hearts, operating a motor vehicle competently is simply not in their genes. 🙂

        I’ll deal with it.



  11. Peter on January 9, 2016 at 12:28

    Sure is hard to follow the threads in these comments. Amy, you asked if I was being “hedge’y” about who was at fault for the regression of Muslim countries? Far be it for me to ever find fault with the West in this forum, but the West’s former colonies didn’t get fucked up all by themselves and they certainly didn’t get all fucked up in the last few decades without significant help from the US of A. Just as Naziism didn’t rise up without a ripe social/economic context, fundy Islam didn’t reassert itself without plenty of contributing dynamics.

    Just because we were major contributors in fucking them up, though, doesn’t mean we have the power to fix things. They’re stuck with it now, with every possible group of assholes trying to out asshole each other and control everyone else. Islamists seem to have a pretty strong hand in this now. They’ll have to work it out now.

    As far as following secular law, to the extent that a society is dominated by religion, the secular law is religious.

  12. Peter on January 9, 2016 at 12:55

    Yes, Marie, I’ve appreciated your comments and agree that “Live free or die” is a kickass state motto. I think Michigan’s current motto is “Drink the Flint municipal water and die of lead poisoning.” Maybe it was a secret Muslim terrorist plot. No, wait, our Governor did that to us.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 10, 2016 at 00:21

      Yes, I’m sure the Muslim world is a model of municipal water quality.

      • Peter on January 10, 2016 at 04:12

        Michigan residents agree with you, Richard. Comparison with underdeveloped world water quality is appropriate.



    • Amy on January 10, 2016 at 08:19

      Peter, if you think the point of these comments or what I think or what Richard thinks or anyone who feels like we do thinks is that the West is faultless and doesn’t have it’s own problems, then you’re even more wilfully stupid than you appear at face value. If you follow Richard’s blog and have read ANYTHING of what he’s written in the past couple of years you also may have short-term memory problems and possible reading comprehension problems.

      Sorry for being so blunt, but in my real life I generally walk away from people who talk like you do rather than say something that can be construed as insulting, because I haven’t accumulated enough “fuck you” money yet to say exactly what I think needs to be said to people it needs to be said to. Discretion being the better part of valor and I need to survive, so I shut my saucy cakehole and decorously move on.

      I don’t have to get along with you to survive, however, so you’re unfortunately receiving the brunt of what I really think.

      FWIW, this doesn’t mean I think you’re a complete asshole and not worth talking to at all, but about this, let’s just say you’re not on the bright side of the issue. You’re on the hackneyed, uninsightful, shopworn side of the issue. You’ve been fed this schtick like pablum by your leftie college professors and the mainstream press, and you’re still lapping it up. And sadly, regurgitating it.

      BTW, this is one of the most disgustingly Orwellian statements I’ve seen anyone make in in seriousness

      “As far as following secular law, to the extent that a society is dominated by religion, the secular law is religious.”

      The fact that you seem to believe this makes any sense at all makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

      Just because you’re not capable of separating your personal superstitions or your feeeeeeeelingggggzzzzzz from a logical course of action, please don’t make the mistake of thinking everyone is the same way, mmkay? Grownups do it all the time.

      Anyway, I could go on here, and I like to argue so I wish I could, but I just don’t have time for this any more. I’ve got stuff to do that I’m not doing because I’d rather be talking about this. I’m really gone out of the comments this time.

      Peace out, everyone. Thanks for the props, Richard. 🙂

      • Peter on January 10, 2016 at 09:23

        Okay Amy, if you were done discussing the issue you could have just stopped, instead of an ad hominem response. Which is what I will now do.



      • gab on January 11, 2016 at 14:56

        Amy? Really? ‘“As far as following secular law, to the extent that a society is dominated by religion, the secular law is religious.”
        Makes you throw up in your mouth? What he wrote doesn’t make sense, that’s a given. But don’t you think maybe swallowing your own puke is an over reaction? Sourmash whiskey influencing things?



  13. Gemma on January 11, 2016 at 03:38

    Even BBC(!) wrote this today:

    Cologne attacks’ profound impact on Europe

    “The question for Germany is not just how to protect women without curtailing their lives but how to restore trust with ordinary Germans that they are being told the truth.

    It is a question that resonates across Europe. It is hard to think of a series of events so likely to feed the narrative of Europe’s anti-establishment and populist parties that an elite is misleading the people.”

    • Richard Nikoley on January 11, 2016 at 07:46

      Good, Gemma.

      I suggest they begin with the truth that these elites don’t particularly care about all these “refugees” in a humanitarian sense, but what they think they can do for Europe.

      What can they do for Europe? Well, the gamble is that they can increase the young workforce so that the social system based on lots of them, that Europeans are loath to provide by having lots of babies, doesn’t come home to roost as it surely will.

      I saw this coming in the early 90’s where French families could pretty much eliminate their taxes by having enough babies, even get into negative tax territory. I even knew a couple of falilies that were up for it, with 5 and 6 kids already, still in their 20s.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 11, 2016 at 09:34

      OK, so everyone is going to focus on the wrong target. That’s already predicted in my blog post in draft.

      Nobody wants to confront the mathematics over time.

      In America, there are thousands of places where it’s tough-er to get along in English. Primarily, Mexican and Asian areas. But America is enormous, so there’s enough room to spread out. Western Europe, already with its Balkanized cultures by comparison.

      I’ll put the rest in the post, but that “nobody believes this fairy tale anymore” gives me even more reason to believe it’s absolutely true.

  14. Jen W. on January 11, 2016 at 20:37

    Thanks to this post and the comments, I actually googled “Why I left Islam” and found this. It’s an older article but it’s basically a listing of various ex-Muslims and their reasons for leaving Islam. The people who say Islam is not compatible with modern Western values are NOT making shit up! : http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/28/islamophobic-muslims-leave-islam-reading-quran/

    • Steven on January 11, 2016 at 20:44

      Well look at that, your link has a link to one of my favorites…

  15. Steven on January 11, 2016 at 20:40
    • Jen W. on January 12, 2016 at 20:27

      Steven,

      I have to thank you for pointing me to alisana.org as it is quite an informative website and the articles are very well written.

  16. Geoffrey on January 26, 2016 at 13:45

    Hey Richard,

    This has been such a hot topic over the last year since Sam Harris went on Bill Maher’s show and got trolled by Ben Affleck maybe 14 months ago, so I appreciate your thoughts.

    I basically agree with most of this post, but I don’t think that you’re correct in saying “most” Muslims, though I do acknowledge that you believe it to be most.

    This is a point that many people have tried to take Sam Harris to task on, and as I’ve heard him defend his position with poll evidence, it seems that what we’re talking about is a large minority, maybe up to 25% of Muslims.

    It’s hard to put an exact number on this, because it depends on what specific sin you are talking about and what population you are talking about. Certainly there are countries that have large majorities who wish to live under sharia, and there are “moderate” countries where large minorities ascribe to sharia (e.g. Turkey, Indonesia). No one can really know what someone believes deep down at their core, but personally I don’t believe that “most” want to live under sharia.

    Either way though, unless you can offer evidence that it is in fact most, you are kind of stirring the pot for its own sake. You would have a more intellectually defensible position if you discussed a large minority.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 26, 2016 at 14:22

      Geoffrey

      First, I love your quasi, not-sure, did-you-see-this, many level and qulified means of disagreeing with me.

      On a fact.

      I haven’t even bothered to read the post because I believe I understood your quibble or complaint immediately.

      Rather than clarify, please allow me to state a perhaps more clarified position.

      Out of all Muslims worldwide, there apears to be 200-300 million goat-fucking, women-boy-girl raping, 7th Century primitive dirt scrathing savages.

      These need to be exterminated. I mean that literally.

      Does that help?

      • Richard Nikoley on January 26, 2016 at 14:30

        To make it clear, this wasn’t snark, and I will look up that Sam Harris and Ben “fucktard” Aflac quack quack stuff.



      • Geoffrey on January 26, 2016 at 14:32

        Number sounds about right to me, pretty in line with my 25% number as well. Still significantly less than half, but way too big of a number to coexist with the West over the long term.



      • Richard Nikoley on January 26, 2016 at 14:36

        Exactly, sir. That’s a fucking big number and scalping is in order, which alludes to my most recent post on the Menace, up on top of blog only an hour ago.



      • Peter on January 26, 2016 at 15:44

        Actually, to accomplish that, you’ll need to exterminate a billion Muslims, along with the rest of us as collateral damage. How else?



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