One Picture Depicting the Uncivilized, Wantonly Ungentlemanly Trough of Pig Vomit Islam Is


A barefoot Syrian woman, carrying two babies, third child holding on to her, whilst 7 young men with shoes & rain gear couldn’t care less.

What a contrast from the immigrants—the huddled, poor, tired masses—of old. You are being stupid.

Here’s what I’ll go for: Carte Blanche for all women and their dependent children. And fuck all those virgin-until-rapist males.

Donald Trump. Are you listening? There would be a very cool way to send the media into another crazy frenzy.

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More


  1. Velvet on January 6, 2016 at 21:19

    They aren’t “immigrants”, they are invaders. Their women aren’t the socially superior sirens of yore, they offer their children as shields and sacrifices – the whole dynamic is how they roll – this propaganda is premium Bull to the Shit. There is no Magic Dirt Transformation that will deliver them to civilized behavior.

    They do war. It is who they are.

    And spare me the “‘mrka” caused it bullshit. *not entertaining*

  2. marie on January 6, 2016 at 22:34

    Ah, a true post-modern feminist sentiment, if there ever has been one.

    Except, how does this image fit in with the statistics showing the Syrian refugees to be in high proportions highly educated across the sexes and of modest, progressive ideology? They are fleeing the fundamentalists who are trying to send their country back to the dark ages and succeeding. Like masses of persians decades ago fled the ayatollah’s coup. Or is that pc propaganda and how can we tell, short of actual investigative reporting or first hand experience on a large scale?
    You know, this train of thought started with just considering if I sent a picture to aliens of our Amish women in long restrictive skirts trailing the men, what would they think of our American societal values?

    Not saying that what you think it represents isn’t true, but just that such a snapshot only confirms that this condition exists, which no one contests.

    How about this : Islam, like other religions, is full of contradictions, with explicitly violent teachings alongside loving ones. Fundamentalist islam sucks, just like any fundamentalist religion. Can we please have rationality and UN human rights screening tests for all immigrants who claim a religion?
    Oh, oops, the christian Right would shut that down mighty quick. I mean, who all could they count on to go shoot up some Planned Parenthood clinic?

    And please, before you start in on me with the “yeah but look at the human rights achievements and technology achievements and blah blah of western civilization, do remember that the only reason we have a western civilization is because when Civilization died an ignoble death of neglect in the West after the Romans, Islamic scholars in the East, Arabs mostly and Persians, preserved ancient knowledge and built on it, with mathematical, astronomical and medical innovations being perhaps the best known.
    The persian poets even exalted romantic love, while in western europe women were chattel and could be tortured in the public square for such crimes as ‘nagging’ up to the 1700s in some places, like germany. Anyone can look this up. You of course already know this well, we’ve had this discussion before.
    So why are All muslims, or even their majority, backwards stone-age rapists? Know many personally do you? Because I do. The uneducated poor masses are as backwards as, well, any uneducated poor religious masses. The doctors and scientists and other educated people are cafeteria-muslims like most educated catholics.

    Look, I have a visceral dislike of all religion and believe it to be a regressive, retarding force in human societal evolution. I just don’t see why muslims take the cake. But, I suspect you’ll enlighten me (couldn’t resist the pun). Just don’t give up and scream at me please, I’m not up for a fight and yeah, I’m claiming special friend-of-the site privilege, mkay? 🙂

    • pp on January 7, 2016 at 02:36

      mkay marie. mkay.

    • LaFrite on January 7, 2016 at 03:01

      Salut Marie,

      Religion is not a regressive force, it is a binding force and the larger the human group, the more coercive it must be (by codifying rigid moral principles and taboos). Small human groups do not need such binding force for the binding that keeps group cohesion is already in place via other mechanisms.

      You’ve got to think a little more systemic when it comes to societal dynamics.

      I also suggest your read my comment at

      But I do agree that a picture out of context can be misused. [humour on] One can see in this particular shot that Muslim men can’t possibly wear a veil like this women, but they’ve gotta do something against the rain, poor chaps! This woman is already protected by default: veil and kids as improvised umbrellas 😉

      • marie on January 8, 2016 at 14:25

        Wow La Frite, took a while to read that comment – well, it’s translation too! Wonderful, btw. I answered on that post/comment. Thanks for the suggestion.
        As for regressive force vs. coercively binding force, I don’t think those are mutually exclusive at all, rather, it’s as if one creates the other, if we accept that imposing rules by force is, well, regressive (in the sense of causing that group to “become less advanced, or, return to a former state or less developed state”).

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:37

        “As for regressive force vs. coercively binding force, I don’t think those are mutually exclusive at all”

        No, they are not.

        But it’s Enlightenment and Western culture, and secular jurisprudence that, in spite of enormous faults that enrage me (minimum sentencing, death penalty, wrongful prosecution and conviction, etc.) nonetheless, are imbued with many levels of correction that operate peacefully.

        These are incredible values, juxtaposed with things such as this:

    • Richard Nikoley on January 7, 2016 at 07:20

      Yea, Marie, the Amish are always having their women walk barefoot in the rain, sacked with three kids.

      They’ve got barns to raise.

      The reason a picture like that is valid in this context is because it’s news to no one. Everyone has seen this sort of stuff. Just because it doesn’t apply to everyone is no grounds for making such a depiction unfair. Nor is it fringe behavior.

      • marie on January 8, 2016 at 09:01

        Ok, so how about these pictures and video? Are they representing a fringe group? The syrian man serving his daughter food or all the pants-and-sweater-wearing women on that train and in the holding center, are they fringe? Of course, that’s covered under your ackowledgment that your picture doesn’t apply to everyone. But then you go on to say it’s not fringe either? How do you know? Not a rhetorical question, knowing you I realise there may be some sound synthesis of information behind your statement. If so, please share. Specifically, about the Syrians who are the greatest mass of refugees. I drew a conclusion based on what may be propaganda reports fir all I know, except that my first-hand experience agreed > You might remember I was in Greece early this summer before my operation. In addition, I have family on Lesbos. These people in their majority looked and sounded just like the Persian and later Lebanese kids I went to school with decades ago.

        Article, vid n pic :

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 20:22

        I don’t care, Marie.

        And nobody else ought to either.

        Those people in that starvation city? I don’t care.

        I’m fucking tired of the entire Middle East pestilence. I’m with Trump. Keep them all out.

        I would also wish that all support was withdrawn. Treat the whole fucking place like Cuba and North Korea. For a thousand years if need be.

        Perhaps, in time, they’ll become as cool as the Ausies.

      • marie on January 9, 2016 at 09:44

        And of course you don’t have to care, more so if there is a larger threat to our own civilization as you’ve been arguing over several posts, or, just because neither you nor anyone should be coerced or forced into helping anyone else if they don’t want to.

        The second reason stands on it’s own, always, irrespective of the objects of our charity, be they muslims or followers of the flying spaghetti monster.
        So arguing about how primitive or dangerous etc are the supposed majority of the refugees is completely irrelevant if the contention is that “I don’t have to help if I don’t want to”.
        True, you don’t. Done.

        Instead, you’ve been contending through many posts and comment answers that the majority of Muslims are dangerous to western civilization.

        So Ok, let’s say there is such a thing as a majority instead of many muslim cultures – I don’t cede that, but it’s a separate discussion.
        Let’s also say that the majority are those dirt-scratching fundamentalists (again, separate discussion).
        Then how on earth are the Syrian Refugees fundamentalist? The refugees. The millions who did Not embrace the fundamentalist insurgency, the same people whose relatives died fighting or who fought themselves before fleeing and who are dying in their desperation to escape fundamentalist oppression.

        By our own western standards, these Syrian refugees are proving, in their millions, a dedication to some of our most cherished core values, just like Iranian refugees did before them.

        I contend that the video and pictures I linked to are much more representative of this group than the pic you’ve posted. That’s the crux of it.
        New Hampshire should be a great place for them, ‘live free or die’ ?

      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 17:35

        “instead, you’ve been contending through many posts and comment answers that the majority of Muslims are dangerous to western civilization.”

        Nope. In fact, going back, I’ve used a far lesser minority figure, so you’re setting off on a false premise.

        But, since you don’t seem to have a problem with not helping them, then it really doesn’t matter.

        That’s what I’m advocating for. I don’t really care on what grounds people demand of their governements that this shit stops now.

      • Richard Nikoley on January 9, 2016 at 17:39

        ….It’s kind of funny.

        In order to stop the invasion and rape of Germany and other countries, everybody has to have a very good reason and all invaders are innocent and virtuous until proven guilty.

        Bull. Shit.

        Fuck Muslims. Ask the Germans. Ask an increasing number of sane people everywhere.

        Fuck fucking Muslims.

  3. Gemma on January 7, 2016 at 09:52

    “statistics showing the Syrian refugees to be in high proportions highly educated across the sexes and of modest, progressive ideology? …Or is that pc propaganda?”

    Propaganda, nothing else.

    The same now with the attacks on women in Köln. First huge information vacuum in German media, only slowly followed by official explanation by politicians (we have no idea who, definitely not new asylum seekers, the main motive: robbery). Now the police strike back and start release their reports (they must be fed up): who – fresh immigrants mostly from “Syria”, the aim: sexual satisfaction. Robbery was only secondary.

    • gab on January 7, 2016 at 12:19

      Sexual assault by groups of young males is nothing about religion. It’s about testosterone and taking advantage. If it’s about religion or culture, then why is it that a bunch of Baptist teenaged males assaulted me in a field at summer camp?

      And what? German males are so polite to women? Like the guy on the beach in the evening in Barbados who chased me and my friend waving his hotel room key at us while yelling ‘das madchen, das madchen’ so the only way to get away from him was to run into the ocean? Na please. We certainly did not look like hookers. And even if we would have been hookers, what the hell? If men think they can get away with being pigs and brutes and bullies, they will. Please don’t whitewash. If nothing adverse has ever happened to you, then that is totally wonderful. You are in the minority. Most women, yes most women, have had unfortunate experiences. You don’t have to be a slut to be assaulted. My friend was taking the stairs at the apartment building she lived in and a guy grabbed her and almost choked her to death. She fought like hell and managed to escape. Pre CCTV days and the guy was never caught.

      It is unfortunate but true that the mayor of Cologne advising women to stay arms length away from strange men is probably good advice. The women claim they were assaulted by Arab types, North Africans. I would never consider contradicting them. But I do not believe for one instant that native born German guys are angels either.

      • Gemma on January 7, 2016 at 12:35


        you missed my point – which was: is propaganda involved, do politicians and media lie to the people (in Germany, this time) or not? On Köln example I tried to show that in the first days they tried to cover the unpleasant reality.

    • marie on January 7, 2016 at 14:06

      Gemma, thanks for addressing the basic question of current propaganda with that cogent argument and information. It’s damn nice to see that I can still rely on you and the other thoughtful people on this site for some insightful arguments. Too many are just responding to Richard’s anger and not his, or anyone’s, points.
      As for propaganda re.the recent attacks in Koln, I wonder though if the “authorities” were just making sure they’d got the info right before throwing what would likely be a match into a tinderbox? There being a hell of a lot of tension over these migrants in Europe…
      Though, it does bring to mind the resistance against Irish immigrants right here in NY a hundred years ago, I mean, what with their “preying on innocent citizens” with their criminal gangs gangs and all. Do you see where the historical parallels with many other surges of refugees or immigrants makes me question the generalizations? I should question them, don’t touthink, when my personal experience doesn’t jive with them and well, because if I’m going to condemn a whole group of people, the bar of peoof should be reasonably high?

      Oh well, thanks to you and Gab and La Frite (I’ll get to that mon cher) for being your usual productive selves! 🙂

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 08:09

        Riddle me this, Marie.

        How come we haven’t been taking in millions of starving Africans over decades, and now it’s a BIG HUGE CONCERN?

        It’s a simple question.

        Nobody has an obligation to wreck their lives and culture over humanitarian concerns they had no direct part in creating.

        It’s almost kinda like a “tax the rich” scheme, as always, rooted in altruism and guilt shifting, just like Ayn Rand, the Russian Radical, laid out in meticulous details, even building characters around them, decades ago.

      • marie on January 8, 2016 at 13:12

        Nah, I don’t think I will because on that point I agree, but I see it as conflating two issues. Cancel all State asylum programs for any refugees, period.
        They’ll partly get rolled back anyway, starting in Europe where they’re sinking under the huge numbers and calling for their governments to fund and send aid to keep the displaced “over there”.
        Let people voluntarily contribute to private/non-state relief agencies if they want to.
        Many are already realising the benefit of that charity. The choice is “keep ’em over there” by paying for use of force to stop them from coming west and lettting them drown when they try anyway, or by paying for relief and development work in the region. Defense and/or charitable “foreign development”. Age-old stuff.

  4. Amy on January 7, 2016 at 13:17

    Gemma: they lie.

    It breaks my heart and makes me afraid for the future of this country in particular and the West in general that the hackneyed, equivocating drivel Marie spouts is what is typically lauded by the mainstream these days as insightful, critical thought. Nauseating.

    • gab on January 7, 2016 at 14:01

      Yeah I know, Amy.

      These pictures are lies too. Why would people want to flee these situations when they are all lies and in truth people are wallowing about fat as pigs? Where on earth are they finding these super starving people? Must be photoshopped.

      • marie on January 7, 2016 at 14:12

        Gab, you can’t argue with someone who just cries “lies” and “drivel” when they don’t like what they hear, not addressing any points.

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 08:04

        You’re offering a false alternative, Gabriella (and Marie, by association).

        Just because they have awful conditions over there doesn’t mean

        1) Anyone well situated in life has an obligation to wreck their own lives for strangers they don’t even know. Some small towns in Germany and elsewhere in EU have literally been overrun. Nothing short of an invasion (notice how they ruralize the problem, where people are generally more conservative than in urban areas).

        2) That because they themselves are victims in a culture that’s well known to victimize institutionally in two ways, church and state—but I’m being redundant here—that they won’t victimize others in western countries where there is a secular demarcation between church and state, a concept basically foreign to them.

  5. Amy on January 7, 2016 at 15:30

    Marie, I own my own opinions. I am not “responding to Richard’s anger” and in fact have been of the mindset I hold now since well before 9/11. The culture of Islam is almost completely at odds with Western values in most political and many philosophical respects. So many that I simply don’t have the time to go into them. Call me lame for saying that if you want, but this is a very large and complex issue, so debating it in blog comments with someone who equivocates cultural differences (relating Amish to Islam? Really?! Bwuhar) the way you apparently do is as much a waste of my time as you apparently think arguing with me is of yours. I have a job and life, as I’m sure you do, too. I already waste too much time doing crap like this when I should be doing other stuff as it is.

    I think you’re missing the point of Gemma’s post, but maybe I’m misreading. Gemma can set me straight if so.

    • marie on January 7, 2016 at 19:00

      Amy, no. You spewed vitriol without supplying any substance to back it up whatsoever. Zero contibution to any discussion, on a blog or anywhere.
      If you had no time to do the complicated subject justice, you’d just say nothing. Unless all you want is to vent and to vainly try to discredit any opposing views just by shouting them down. You had time to do that of course.

      But hey, you’re getting at least a wee bit more sophisticated with your approach, you’ve moved up to intentionally misrepresenting some part of the argument. Like I supposedly related Amish and Islam in terms of cultures – ‘bwuhar’ is right. The Amish example was about using any single snapshot as evidence of a generalization and was even described as such, so there’s no benefit of the doubt regarding a possible misunderstanding. Or maybe I just give you too much credit.

      I certainly agree with you about one thing though, no one has the time for (this type of) ‘argument’.

      • Amy on January 8, 2016 at 05:12

        Marie, I’m sorry you don’t understand the difference between an acerbic drive-by comment and actual vitriol. Hopefully your understanding will improve with time. But based on this bit of gobbledey-gook you spewed:

        “Like I supposedly related Amish and Islam in terms of cultures – ‘bwuhar’ is right. The Amish example was about using any single snapshot as evidence of a generalization and was even described as such, so there’s no benefit of the doubt regarding a possible misunderstanding.”

        I don’t have much hope. It makes absolutely no sense. If you don’t think the two cultures are relatable in some manner, what on earth were you doing making that statement? But really please don’t answer that. It’s a rhetorical question. I’m done here. I only commented because I seriously can’t stop laughing right now. Thanks for the chuckle. 🙂

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 10:43

        “If you had no time to do the complicated subject justice”

        I’m seeing it exactly opposite. Sorry, cheri.

        I’ll never lie to you.

      • marie on January 8, 2016 at 12:46

        Richard, it’s ok, the substance and eloquence appeared after Amy’s admitted “drive-by” comment, which was just a short bit of name-calling. I’m glad Amy opened up though, the discussion suddenly got interesting. I say that somewhere else too.

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 21:01

        “Richard, it’s ok, the substance and eloquence appeared after Amy’s admitted “drive-by” comment, which was just a short bit of name-calling. I’m glad Amy opened up though, the discussion suddenly got interesting. I say that somewhere else too.”

        OK, now off with you two. Pillow fights in panties. Pics please. 🙂

      • marie on January 9, 2016 at 14:01

        Richard, well now, since you’ve asked so ‘nicely’ on Two threads, here’s my best offering (curtesy of Tina, I’d no idea of this group) :

        And Amy? I figure it’s “you condescending Dick”! 🙂

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 08:25

      I agree with Amy.

      In particular, this queer equivocation with other PEACEFUL cultural practices TODAY.

      Islam is an outlier, and has always been that, and it’s now manifesting as they’ve been not even TROJAN HORSED in, but welcomed with open arms by lefties who feel guilty about their wealth and privilege.

      I’ve never equivocated like that, but I didn’t see it as a critical problem until now.

      The funny thing is? They themselves will tell you their intentions, and when their actions correspond, then it’s you all who are the fools for not putting two and two together, in favor of bullshit leftist/commie/self-sacrificial bullshit designed to make you OK with “popular” opinion.

      I not only don’t give a fuck about ruffling feathers. It’s my life’s work.

      Too much stupid, too little time.

      • marie on January 8, 2016 at 11:05

        O.k. is a given that any picture may not be representative of the majority of some group, but to satisfy you, here are some non-peaceful examples : is a picture of black gang members shooting up a neighborhood basketball game representative of black men, or better yet, is a picture of Mexican drug dealers taking over an entire town representative of Mexicans?

        Wait you say, it’s obvious that the dominant Mexican Culture doesn’t embrace drug dealers, that’s the difference!

        So what you’re saying then is that you know that the majority of the refugees from Syria or from any muslim country that is fighting against, or has been taken-over by, Islamic fundamentalists are…..Islamic fundamentalists.

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 20:34

        I don’t have time or interest for this, Marie.

        Once Blacks and Mexicans stop shooting up their own and instead start bombing and shooting up Paris on a Friday night, and Corp Christmas parties in suburban America, I’ll get right on it.

  6. Amy on January 7, 2016 at 15:48

    gab, I’m not sure why you’re shooting that picture at me. What I was responding to when I said “they lie” is the statement “statistics showing the Syrian refugees to be in high proportions highly educated across the sexes and of modest, progressive ideology? …Or is that pc propaganda?”

    I think it’s pc propaganda and the people putting together the stats are skewing them to cast the situation in a positive light, in the same way climate stats are skewed to support the global warming agenda.

    I was going to try to argue some more but just don’t have the time or energy. I’ll just finish by saying that I’m sure there are lots of atrocities being committed by the fundamentalists. I wish I could stop them all. Truly. I don’t like bullies one fucking bit and the Islamists are nothing if not bullies. Plus, I have always been a little bit of a pugilist and frequently step up when I should bow out. So I would stop the brutality if I could. But I can’t. Nor can the West, at least not with our current crop of spineless leader.

    My bottom line is that if we pour our energy and our resources into propping up a load of people who don’t share our values, and with leaders and a populace who think it’s okay to do so, we could soon find our values overwhelmed with no resources to support them. Not a risk I’m willing to take.

    • gab on January 7, 2016 at 16:17

      Amy, with all due respect (seriously, I am not being sarcastic or anything like that) can you define ‘western values’? I don’t know what you mean and maybe I’m ‘thick’ or something like that.

      I’ve done some looking on line and I can’t find anything that defines this. What about this discussion? Does it contribute anything to what you mean?

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 09:10

        I just read that stupid bullshit.

        “The argued value system—whether Western or not—thus appeared to be distinctly human in its desire for freedom.

        “Considering the importance of this particular value raises the issue of several less honorable values that seem common partners of freedom: self-obsession, love of money and lack of care for others being just a few examples. There was a striking tension on both sides over the combination of terms assertion and superiority. The implementation of what all agreed to be ‘universal’ rights sparked consternation and dispute, but ultimately Ramadan spoke most persuasively when he argued for humility, self-criticism and consistency in the practice of shared values. The argued value system—whether Western or not—thus appeared to be distinctly human in its desire for freedom.”

        Near as I can tell, he wrote it on a computer.

        Case closed. Dismissed. Don’t have time for equivocating and an explicit refusal to deal with critical distinctions and integrate critical facts.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 08:49

      “So I would stop the brutality if I could. But I can’t. Nor can the West, at least not with our current crop of spineless leader.”

      First, I’ll dismiss Gabs with her inability to define or derive any critical distinction between western Enlightenment culture and 7th Century goat-fuckers, virgins-until-rapists “culture,” 1,400 years in the making and essentially unchanged.

      Amy is essentially describing the problem of anarchism. I’d be happy to be involved in a Kickstarter that got rid of this fucking time-sucking menace for good, with dollars. It would be the first kickstater to raise a few hundred billion dollars internationally. I am fucking tired of it, and I’m fucking tired of equivocators and apologists.

      But if the state is the only weapon I have, then I’m going to agitate for a complete and total submission of the 7th Century goat-fucker, virgin-until-rapist culture, for the sake of the Enlightened.

      No, I do not care about collateral damage.

      Let Allah sort it out.

  7. Amy on January 7, 2016 at 16:36


    Free speech
    Separation of church and state (the religious does not rule the political)
    Punishment must fit the crime

    Those are my biggies. I could go on but it’s crunch time for my evening.

    I don’t really have time to read the linked article, but a quick glance tells me no, that’s just a bunch more equivocation. I’ll try to look harder later.

    • gab on January 7, 2016 at 16:52

      These are ‘western ideals’ but they are not really practiced even in the USA. Why do all your presidents have to be seen to attend church? That’s weird. We over here don’t give a flying damn if the Prime Minister goes to church or doesn’t go to church.

      • Amy on January 8, 2016 at 07:04

        Gab, the things I listed are not “ideals”. They are the VALUES that modern Western Civ was built on. They basically came out of the Reformation and then the Enlightenment after Christians decided that the Divine Right of Kings and the excesses of the Catholic Church were a steaming pile of shit foisted on the rest of us by a few charismatic and/or power-hungry megalomaniacs. That’s an oversimplification in the interest of time, but that’s the gist.

        These values are always going to be imperfectly applied because humans are by nature imperfect, and also because some humans are hypocrites. They espouse these ideals without believing in them, hoping to ultimately subvert them for their own gain. Sometimes they parrot them without understanding the real significance of what several centuries of simply attempting to attain them has brought to our existence. But imperfection is no reason to stop striving for perfection.

        As a result of an imperfect application of Western values, some dummies see only a culture of greedy corporate barons, corrupt politicians/government, commercialization, and a polluted earth as the outcome.

        But what I see is a culture where almost anybody can get ahead and be prosperous who’s willing to work hard and never give up…regardless of race, sex, or physical handicap. That’s not true in many places of the world, especially Muslim countries.

        I see a culture where women are not chattels and can do what we want with free choice.

        I see a culture where childrean are not exploited and pressed into slavery.

        I see a culture where the rape of female children and the sexual exploitation of young girls is not only illegal, it’s anathema.

        I see a culture where to be homosexual is not cause for shunning, stoning, torture, or death.

        I see a culture where an artist is free to disrespect the major icon of the dominant religion by dropping it into a jar of urine, taking a picture, publishing the picture, not fearing that explosives will be sent to his home or workplace, or that his life is in danger. Instead of fearing for life and limb, the artist is feted and celebrated as daring and cutting edge.


        Of course these freedoms were not always true of Western culture; these things are only true now because of centuries of even imperfect striving to implement the Western values I mentioned above.

        And of course Western culture still isn’t perfect; bad things happen every day because there are just a lot of shitty, stupid humans in the world who couldn’t grasp the concept of a higher value or a more just way of being if it slapped them in the face. But to dismiss Western values as irrelevant because they don’t make everything perfect is basically throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It’s foolish and short-sighted. At this juncture in history, it’s also very dangerous.

        If you think the real issue for people like me is that Muslims are going to come here and take our jobs or whatever, you’re sadly mistaken. It’s the fact that their culture is fundamentally different than ours, in the most basic of respects.

        They don’t believe in equality; they believe in dhimmitude.

        They don’t believe in freedom, or freedom of choice; they believe that women and children are essentially the property of men, that homosexuality is a sin against God that should be wiped from the earth, that sex outside of marriage is a legally punishable crime, etc.

        But the worst thing is most of them don’t believe in secular government, with application of the law applying equally to all; they believe in sharia law, which is law directly taken from their sacred religious text, and that can ONLY be interpreted and applied through the filter of the religion of Islam, for the benefit of Muslims. Under sharia law women and dhimmis (that’s you and me, GF) are second-class citizens and are not worthy of much consideration. And it is NOT only the Islamic radicals that believe in the application of sharia law. Basically, sharia is the polar opposite of Western law based on Western values, and sharia is so fundamentally inseparable from the religion of Islam itself that most Muslims are fine with all but the very most fundamental, radical interpretation of it.

        And please don’t equate the concept of sharia with the fact that many Western laws have their foundation in the Ten Commandments and Judeo-Christian morality. I can see it coming already, and that tired old argument is reductionist, childish, and not worthy of consideration or discussion. Judeo-Christian morality is just fundamental and most humans share the same morality. You don’t steal your neighbors stuff, you don’t fuck your neighbor’s husband, you don’t kill your neighbor, etc. The Ten Commandments generally refer to the things that cause a lot of problems in any community if not adhered to, so they’re fairly universal values. The fact that we owe a cultural debt directly to them is mostly an accident of history. We’d probably have hit upon them anyhow, even if not so eloquently worded.

        If Muslims were to come to Western countries like the Irish did the U.S. in the 19th century and assimilate (IIRC from my history, the Irish backlash was over within 40 years because they assimilated very well), all would be well. I’m fine with that. The Irish didn’t want to take over, and they came from the same value system that spawned the U.S. They just wanted a chance to prosper and get along.

        But Muslims don’t seem to want to assimilate. Instead, they tend to form tight communities where sharia law is practiced openly and local law is openly flouted.

        Do some googling about some of the no-man’s-land neighborhoods in Germany and I think Sweden and a few other Nordic countries. They’re having a real problem.

        Google “Paris and Muslim immigration” for some info on the problems they’ve been having there for years.

        Do some googling about some things going on in the Muslim community in Detroit, Michigan here in the U.S.

        Check out this article and google “Rotherham rape” for some info on a corrosive, long-standing problem with long-term, insular Muslim communities in your own neck of the woods.

        Islam is by doctrine an expansionist, conquering religion. I don’t think most Muslims want to assimilate; they want to take over. They want Islam to be the dominant religion, if for no other reason than they have been steeped in the concept of dhimmitude. They want sharia to be the dominant system of law.

        THAT is my problem with Islam and the current crisis. It ain’t skin color. It ain’t the fact that I think they’re inferior or will steal my job or whatever. :eyeroll: It’s the fact that I strongly suspect that most of them, even the moderates, believe I would be better off if I was not a dhimmi filled with the ideals and governed by the laws of the infidel. They don’t want assimilation, they want to change the place they are going, and they will change me and my culture if they can. I won’t roll over and let that happen. Paris or Rotherham in my neck of the woods? Uh-uh.

        And I don’t care that Western people have exported culture and been imperialist in the past. That wasn’t me and I refuse to be held accountable for the actions of dead people I never even met, and likewise to pay for their sins. Ditto just because I happen to share a skin color. I repudiate anyone who thinks I should. Western culture ain’t perfect but by and large I’m proud of it. I’m definitely proud to be a part of it.

        I’m not a terribly eloquent writer any more, in that I have trouble actually writing out the more complex thoughts I have. I am just now recovering my health after years of debilitating depression and fatigue, and my cognitive function simply isn’t up to par. Some days are better than others but I’ll never be the great thinker or writer that I wish I was.

        But I hope that explains where I’m coming from a little better. It’s just an imperfect written representation of some of the things I think. Please know, however, that I don’t really care if you (or anyone) agrees with it. It’s the truth.

        Now life calls. I have stuff to do and won’t communicate in this thread any more. I’ll read responses out of curiosity, but I’m done with the argument.

        Peace out, Gab. 🙂

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 09:44

        Amy, look for what you just wrote as a new blog post.

        Well done.

    • Gemma on January 8, 2016 at 05:57

      One “western value” that is very valuable to me is that women know that they can walk freely in the streets wearing miniskirts and there are no gangs of sexually frustrated animals ready to attack them. This value is threatened at the moment. And we value it exactly because we know what was happening in 1700 or so, as Marie states above.

      Another value: there is a public space that people can use to freely express their opinions, describe reality as it is, and yes, also make jokes about others, not fearing the other one shooting them – for telling a joke. Also threatened.

      But what about this? Also a “western value”? The USA and friends following a master plan called “New Middle East” by Bush, Rice et. al, “exporting democracy” and knocking down one country after another, and keeping the economy of their non stop little wars going? While lying to its own people? Also valuable? Not quite, right?

      The reality is harsh sometimes. Face it.

      Nice reading from yesterday:
      Colonel Gaddafi warned Tony Blair of Islamist attacks on Europe, phone conversations reveal
      “Transcripts of two telephone conversations between the two leaders which took place on February 25, 2011, are made public “

      • Amy on January 8, 2016 at 07:43

        So what’s your point? That we should allow unfettered and uncontrolled immigration into Western countries because we have stupid and venal politicians?

        That the Islamists are justified in what they’re doing not just to us but to their own people because we have stupid and venal politicians?

        Or maybe it’s the Crusades that’s causing all this. Everyone should still be worried about that. A thousand years or so isn’t really that long a time, after all. Although, come to think of it, the “exportation of Islam” into Jerusalem migh’ve been an excuse for the Crusades, if we follow that logic.


        Shit goes round and round. Sometimes you have to stop the wheel and take a stand for what you believe to be right, even if the circumstances are less than perfect. When you do that, you run the risk of becoming what you’re fighting against. Sometimes in order to fight effectively you MUST become the thing you fight against. It’s a risk adults are by and large willing to take, if the issue is of big enough import.

        The values of Islam, especially radical Islam, aren’t right. And yes, thanks, I do feel qualified to pass that judgment. The precepts of Islam violate the natural rights we as Westerners hold to be self-evident.

        Either you believe Western values are worth striving for, even in imperfect circumstances, or you’re willing to equivocate while others take advantage of your concommitant paralyis.

        I believe that’s what it’s going to boil down to in the next years to couple decades. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

      • Gemma on January 8, 2016 at 07:53

        “So what’s your point? That we should allow unfettered and uncontrolled immigration into Western countries because we have stupid and venal politicians? ”

        Are you talking to me? No idea where your impression came from.

      • Amy on January 8, 2016 at 08:17

        Gemma, I guess I just don’t understand your point. You say on the one hand that you like the freedom to do stuff like wear mini-skirts unmolested, and then on the other hand reference some bad stuff the U.S. did. So…???

        Typically Bush’s “knocking down of countries” is used as a justification for the actions of Islamists. So are the Crusades, which is why I brought that up.

        You seem to be kind of straddling the fence here, so I’m just not sure what your point is, other than the West does bad stuff sometimes, too. Which is a point I think we can all agree on.

        But it’s not a justification for the actions of Islamists (which pre-date the Bush II invasion of Iraq since at least 9/11/01) or to allow unfettered immigration.

        If you’re just venting please tell me that and I’ll shut up. I just thought maybe there was a point to your post and I still don’t get it because it presents two seemingly different sides and doesn’t draw any conclusion.
        on for the actions

      • Gemma on January 8, 2016 at 08:30


        “we have stupid and venal politicians”

        Agreed. Sorry I cannot write as eloquently as you do.
        The failure of elites (be it Bush, Blair or Merkel, it does not matter now who) to work PRIMARILY for the welfare of its own people is – unfortunately – part of the reason that Western culture is threatened, probably as as never before.

      • Gemma on January 8, 2016 at 08:38

        One more remark:

        “Typically Bush’s “knocking down of countries” is used as a justification for the actions of Islamists. ”

        I brought this point because they (Bush et al this time) should have known better, and foresee what might happen. Clearly, they did not. So, stupid or venal, or both?

      • gab on January 9, 2016 at 10:33

        Gemma, I know I look good in a mini skirt (my legs are one of my best assets). Hope you do too. 😉 However, there’s an awful lot of women who would do much better with something a lot longer. Just for the sake of aesthetics. It offends the eyes to see a woman walking along on tree trunk ungainly legs, bowed legs, knock knees… you get my drift I’m sure.

    • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 09:38


      “Free speech
      Separation of church and state (the religious does not rule the political)
      Punishment must fit the crime”

      Basically what I always call “bread and butter” stuff.

      It’s quite remarkable when you consider that better than 200 year ago, a bunch of white slaveholders in a British colony essentially had those same essentials at heart, at least for some people—but perhaps they let alone slavery since they were dealing with the most uphill, philosophical establishment of state that had ever existed.

      Try to imagine. For the first time on Earth, we’re going to establish a nation from ideas rather than conquest and domination. And they fought off the British to do it.

      On the other side of the world, Muslims were raping and killing their “wives,” as they do to this day, and ironically, we’re having privileged western women waving hands at distinctions while conflating their asses off.

      • Amy on January 8, 2016 at 11:04

        Richard, what dismays me the most is that Westerners apparently don’t understand how fragile is the system we have and how easily it could be swept away simply by ignorance and apathy on the part of the majority of the population. They apparently don’t understand history or human nature. They take for granted that everything is always going to be pretty much the same as it is now and everyone we meet always going to more or less as as civilized as we are, and extend the same courtesies to us that we extend to them. Because our current state of civilization enables it, they think their illusions of the permanent nature of our civilization, will always stand, even when the rest of the world crumbles in front of them. They mistake equivocation and rude parsing of semantics for logic and reason. They’re worried about a mythical campus rape epidemic at Western institutions of higher learning, while in most corners of the globe, actual rape of the most brutal is happening as a part of cultural norms. It boggles.

        I’m sure you know there were a lot of the Constitutional delegates that wanted to do away with slavery in the colonies, but they dropped their objections in the face of increasing British aggression because the issue threatened to completely fracture the already contentious union. Solidarity was deemed the bigger expedient. If I could change one thing about the founding of the country, it would be that. Not just because slavery is evil, but because every snotty-nosed, heel-drumming Progressive in the world tries to bring that hackneyed shit up when you start talking about the foundational beliefs of equality and freedom. Just mentioning because a lot of people don’t understand that. Sometimes grownups make expedient choices they don’t really like in order to support a larger, long-term good.

        Anyway, I digress and begin to bloviate. But these are the things I think about a lot. It’s nice to have a venue to air the thoughts. They’re not terribly popular with most of the people I am in daily contact with. So thanks. 🙂

      • Richard Nikoley on January 8, 2016 at 20:31

        “They’re worried about a mythical campus rape epidemic at Western institutions of higher learning, while in most corners of the globe, actual rape of the most brutal is happening as a part of cultural norms. It boggles.”

        Yep, anyone over 40 who went to college is a rapist by today’s “standards.”

        I hear you on the slavery deal. I always liked how a guy, Billy Beck, put it: America’s Original Sin.

        It’s unfortunate indeed that it’s about as diametrically opposed to the ideals that founded a nation, on the idea that the government will be accountable to law too, for the very first time in history.

  8. edster on January 7, 2016 at 18:26

    I think Janet Factor sums it all up perfectly in

    “The bloodshed in Iraq and Syria and Libya and Nigeria and everywhere else this contagion has spread is a savage primal conflict, where the whole point of conquering your neighbors is to steal their women.”

    “This, I submit, is the true source of the rift between the Muslim world and the secular world of the West. Islam never gave up polygyny. Instead it enshrined the practice in Sharia law, allowing men up to four wives, and concubines into the bargain. In doing so it made it impossible for women to rise in social status—a rise that seems so natural and inevitable to us—and condemned itself to suffer the ongoing societal instability created by large numbers of unattached young males.”

    “Movements like fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islamism are driven by the existence of large numbers of people who, for whatever reason, simply cannot adjust to modernity. In particular, they cannot adjust to equality for women. Both movements are completely fixated on sex. The obsession takes different forms but its focus is the same: the control of women and their bodies in the service of men.”

  9. Velvet on January 9, 2016 at 22:30

    Y’all are all retarded. Anyone who still misinterprets “separation of church and State” as anything other than Keep Your Fucking State off my church needs serious remedial reading comprehension tutoring and probably a spanking. As for the influences of the Catholic Church, way up thread, you might consider that a horny impetuous thug-King and his wife whose head he ultimately lopped off when he tired of her are actually the perpetrators of the excess you lament. He didn’t vacate, he didn’t brilliantly entrepreneur his way to Protestant, he just killed the most people who wouldn’t play along. And he told them he would. And they did not believe what he told them. Good luck with that.

    Jaysus, does no one actually look stuff up, from like things people actually wrote, anymore???

  10. Qui Creva on July 19, 2016 at 11:40

    I think all to many of the posters here got off on tangents rather than addressing the main message here. Islamic culture denigrates women as second-class citizens; this photo illustrates the point quite starkly. Can you imagine a group of Christian/Hindu/Atheist/Secular/Sikh refugees expecting a woman to walk barefoot through snow carrying two little kids and leading a third by the hand, while the males of the group travel well-shod and burden-free? Nope, because it is VERY unlikely you will EVER witness such a scene. Other cultures may discriminate against women, but Islam takes the prize in that regard. Add to this fact the tragedy that almost all of the major modern wars and conflicts involve Islam in some way. Face it: Something is very rotten in the Muslim Ummah. Endless bloody conflicts, corrupt governments, genocide against minorities, terrorist attacks, grinding poverty, illiteracy, slavery and misogyny are the order of the day wherever Islam reigns supreme. Is it any wonder many westerners don’t want to welcome more Muslims to their countries?

    • gabkad on July 19, 2016 at 12:56

      The only reason you write what you do, is because you don’t know anything about Hindus. They are not ‘in the news’ quite as much as Muslims. Read this:

      • Qui Creva on August 9, 2016 at 10:22

        I am aware that various pathways within Hinduism are markedly misogynistic. I stand by what I said though: Islam is the very worst offender in this regard. Islamic doctrine is the problem. Frankly, the core teachings of Islam are an affront to human freedom, worth, dignity and prosperity. They are a disgrace. Pointing out that other creeds also have their shortcomings is a red herring. The fact that adherents of other religions do bad things does NOT exonerate the heinous doctrines of Islam.

  11. Freedom4all on February 26, 2017 at 05:06

    You are right about this Picture, however those of you without Sin may throw the first Stone still applies, thinking of many Brothels and Pornography of the West which def. does NOT empower Woman.
    !!! AND AND AND: Except that Donald Trump is a Zionist Facist who supports and works with the very wors Islamists and Child Rapists Wahabists of Saudi Arabia, welcome to Reality.
    AND HE ALLREADY is waring in Yemen getting even more Civilians killed there as if the starving Kids there was not enough.
    Yeah i forgott WAR is big Business…..!!

    • Richard Nikoley on February 26, 2017 at 06:29

      Someone from the Hate America First crowd…

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