My Own Ray Peat Hack of Orange Juice and Milk – 2 Days

Thought I’d pop this up for interest. While my main interest right now is the buzzing over the recent NuSI study that appears to falsify Taubes’ alternative hypothesis (the comments are off the charts grand), I know that battlements are being manned. That’s a good thing and I aim to help. For example, Mike Eades and I have been in cordial email exchange. He thinks there’s more to it, is drafting his own post now, and in sporting fashion, I’ve emailed links to Jason Fung’s alternative take, as well as a transcript and image of Kevin Hall’s poster to help Mike draft his post with less time taking.

I’m anxious to read it. I also emailed him a link to the way I described Gary Taubes’ alternative hypothesis way back in January, 2008: 180 Degree Errors. Reading that, I hope I’m not getting dumber over time. Oh, and hey, Anthony Colpo weighed in and his gloating was mild and he didn’t go after Mike directly. Progress and more clarity on many fronts.

I’ll be posting a follow-up to the whole deal based on some of the great comments, Jason Fung’s post, Mike’s if it’s up by then, and other observations and integrations.

…So anyway, I’m up for almost anything. From what I gather, Ray Peat holds that one principle cause of problems is stress hormones and that those can be tempered with…get this…sugar! I’ve scoffed at the idea for years, and I admit I have almost zero knowledge of what he’s on about beyond bits and pieces gleened from Matt Stone and Danny Roddy over the years.

So completely unplanned, but Bea left Monday at noon, returns Friday. And I hadn’t had anything but coffee and so decided to do a little “Ray Peat Hack” with the half gallon of OJ and gallon of whole milk in the fridge. Other than a water-smoothie with my “Fart Powder” (something is coming on that, stay tuned) yesterday morning, a couple of crackers with some goat cheese and pate, and a grilled cheese sandwich last night, that’s all I consumed. High pulp not-from-concentrate OJ (the pulp is so high it’s rather like mashed oranges) and a gallon of organic whole milk (not raw, not available up here).

I feel and felt fucking awesome. Exceedingly calm. But I was mostly trying to discern the purported stress reduction element and I think I got some resolution. I have a couple of pending financial issues that are very unpleasant to even think about. Yesterday afternoon, I start diving in to tackle one of them as I do all the time, no problem.

I suddenly get hot & sweaty. Very profound. So much so that I ended up clicking away, left to tackle another day.

So what does it mean? Placebo, perhaps, but what if all the sugar via pretty whole-like intake is in fact calming to such an extent that you really have insight and resolution to stressful things coming on and so it’s acute, and not chronic from an unhealthy baseline. The thing is, you have to deal with your life too, and it can be stressful. Perhaps having the resolution of acute stress motivates you, over time, to have better means in deciding what you take on. Or, perhaps, those who raise stress to chronic levels burn brighter and accomplish more in a shorter life.

I welcome Peat fans to shed light on this in comments.

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More


  1. Charles on May 4, 2016 at 12:18

    I’m liking Jason Fung the more I read him.

    • Momfryhover on May 4, 2016 at 15:19

      Me too!

    • John on May 4, 2016 at 20:45

      If you look at that Biggest Loser vs. Bariatic Surgery study that Jason Fung references from a Peatish perspective, a few things jump out at you. Below are some numbers from the table comparing the subjects. First number is Biggest Loser at Baseline, second after the 7 month competition, third bariatric patients at baseline, forth bariatic patients at 12 months-

      Insulin (µU/mL) 8.0 ± 7.5 4.2 ± 1.9 25.5 ± 11.9a 9.2 ± 3.9c, e
      Leptin (ng/mL) 45.2 ± 18.4 3.2 ± 2.4c 36.8 ± 13.4 16.4 ± 10.5c, e
      Thyroid profile
      T3; nmol/L 1.30 ± 0.29 0.74 ± 0.16c 1.64 ± 0.41 1.53 ± 0.23e
      T4; nmol/L 90.6 ± 18.5 82.3 ± 17.5 81.4 ± 9.4 82.2 ± 9.0
      TSH; mΙU/L 1.3 ± 1.0 1.1 ± 0.8 0.7 ± 0.5 0.7 ± 0.7

      The Biggest Loser contestants are worse of metabolically at BASELINE then the gastric bypass patients were after 12 months of forced caloric restriction, at least when looking at TSH and T3. The drop in Leptin is massive for BL, not as bad for GB. And another interesting tidbit…. Look at how low insulin levels in the BL group is compared to GB!

      Also, the massive amounts of intense exercise that the BL group performs would greatly diminish their carbon dioxide levels, which could help explain the greater than expected drop in RMR.

      So, not only are contestants on The Biggest Loser put through a more reckless and dangerous weight loss program than Gastric Bypass, they were actually worse off metabolically to begin with. No wonder they had so many problems.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 07:08

      Interesting stuff, John. Something very interesting about that Bariatric result, as well as those who model it by limiting to 800kcal for a couple of months.

      I just had a phone conversation with my mom yesterday who has been doing that very faithfully, just about 8 weeks now. Down over 30 pounds, feels great, and has only been needing a tiny bit of insulin every three days, with GBG 90-100 range. This is after 16 years diagnosed T2, and FBG has been 180-190 for years no matter what she does.

      Interestingly, she says her post pran is less jumpy and spiky if she incorporates a half slice of rye toast with whatever she’s eating.

      Anyway, her view is that LC and Paleo over the years gave her enough control to not have BG going over 200 too often, as opposed to 400 for other diabetics we know. And without huge doses of I.

      But this is a whole new world for her. And at 75. We agreed that the true test will be eating more calories once she reaches the weight loss target, which should be another 20 pounds or so. We’ll see.

    • John on May 5, 2016 at 08:34

      Yeah, a lot of the stuff you’ve been posting about those 800 cal diets have been very interesting, and getting positive results that I would not expect. Just wondering, have you checked out Lyle McDonald’s Rapid Fat Loss Handbook? I believe it’s all about setting up a diet in that 400-1200 calorie range in the safest and sanest way possible, and how to use diet breaks and get into maintenance once weight is lost. I know you’ve had issues with him in the past (and I think a lot of people did, since he used to go off on people randomly all the time, prior to getting treatment for bi-polar disorder), but a lot of his stuff seems pretty solid. He has a great interview with a former contestant from The Biggest Loser on his site as well, which is also really interesting.

      And not that I want to keep pimping Lyle’s products (or a drug based approach), but your mom might be interested in his writings on Bromocroptine, which as a weight loss drug, works better in post-menopausal women than in any other group. Potentially great news, since post-menopausal women have a tougher time with weight loss than any other group.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 10:21

      Was that his PSMF book? Yea, that I tried, but it’s so damn hard to keep the fat low with the protein high that it was really not enjoyable. I prefer the potato hack and I have zero concern about lean loss over short hack periods of time.

  2. Kerri on May 4, 2016 at 12:59

    You can get home salivary cortisol tests that you can check your cortisol levels at low cost ‘at will’. Why not do this as a real objective N=1 and do a salivary cortisol level a couple of times the day before, and then the day after the hack and see what the objective results are?

    • Richard Nikoley on May 4, 2016 at 13:08

      Perhaps because I don’t want to confuse myself, or be blinded by science.

      My resolution comes from some degree of variable control and how I feel. It’s enough for me. And I just report.

  3. Jim on May 4, 2016 at 13:26

    Next up – Colpo vs Fung!

  4. Perry on May 4, 2016 at 14:56

    People are going to run into problems with the introduction of that many carbs into their system where the oxidation phosphorylation pathways are not up to snuff. If i remember correctly, 1/2 gallon Oj should be about 200 grams carbs with about half that being fructose. So 100 gms fructose plus the carbs in milk is going to cause problems for most people. Richard responded positively but that probably won’t last at the levels he waded in with.

    The idea is to tamper down the many stress hormones that are there to slow your metabolism while at the same time providing the body the necessary nutrients to fuel the increase in metabolism. This really needs to happen over time, its a process and the body will resist at first but then it will raise calorie needs by increasing metabolism assuming the nutrient base is there for fueling the whole shabang. Gun something without the nutrient base or use up something that was marginal to begin with and you will be running around squawking how bad you feel, your sugar is high etc and you will make more stress hormones!

    The whole point is to get the cellular energy production machinery humming again and burning glucose (and yes fructose, it can be used by cells and not just in the liver!). When this isn’t happening, in the extreme, this is called diabetes II, but its a spectrum. What pushes us around on the spectrum? Stress and the resulting adaptive stress hormones our body responds with. Where does the stress come from? anything really. Real, imagined, environmental, psycho social, interpersonal, physical mental perceived, food…

    Over time we get sick from this chronic cycle and over time modern medicine gets to tell you you have something bad, diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimers , anything really that has gone acute from a series of subtle but ever expanding list of symptoms engendered from chronic cellar energy deficits until one day something gives and you have cancer or the above.

    Relating to the study and debate about moving deck chairs around on the sinking titanic, obesity is something you can get from chronic energy deficits at the cellular level.

    In a nutshell, its about energy and structure.

  5. Perry on May 4, 2016 at 15:04

    “Besides fasting, or chronic protein deficiency, the common causes of hypothyroidism are excessive stress or ‘aerobic’ (i.e. anaerobic) exercise, and diets containing beans, lentils, nuts, unsaturated fats (including carotene), and undercooked broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, or mustard greens. Many health conscious people become hypothyroid with a synergistic program of undercooked vegetables, legumes instead of animal proteins, oils instead of butter, carotene instead of vitamin A, and breathless exercise instead of a stimulating life.”
    Ray Peat PhD

    “The food industry is promoting the use of various gums and starches, which are convenient thickeners and stabilizers for increasing shelf-life, with the argument that the butyric acid produced when they are fermented by intestinal bacteria is protective. However, intestinal fermentation increases systemic and brain serotonin, and the short-chain fatty acids can produce a variety of inflammatory and cytotoxic effect. Considering the longevity and stress-resistance of germ-free animals, choosing foods (such as raw carrots or cooked bamboo shoots or cooked mushrooms) which accelerate peristalsis and speed transit through the bowel, which suppressing bacterial growth, seems like a convenient approach to increasing longevity.”
    Ray Peat PhD, Recent Newsletter

    “The main features of aging can be produced directly by administering excessive amounts of cortisol. These features include atrophy of skin, arteries, muscle, bone, immune system, and parts of the brain, loss of pigment (melanin), deposition of fat in certain areas, and slowed conduction velocity of nerves. The physiology of aging (especially reproductive aging) overlaps the physiology of stress.”
    Ray Peat PhD

  6. Perry on May 4, 2016 at 15:08
  7. Alex on May 4, 2016 at 15:20

    Well, because I travel weekly and the continental buffet has all the free orange juice and low fat milk you can carry back to your fridge, I’ve used those items as a major source of my calories for 7 months. I do have more energy and motivation. I gained 10 lbs weight starting 12/23 through January but technically that’s when I started taking a daily anti-retroviral that I will have to take indefinitely…

    I peaked at 165-168 (5′ 8″ male) in January. I just weighed in at 157.3 last weekend, so back to baseline finally and hopefully continuing to lose weight while continuing the resistance training I started 2 months ago.

    I just had blood tests a week ago, my C-Reactive Protein, Cardiac was 8 on a scale of 0-3 mg/L, no idea if that’s a problem with the medicine or the diet. Still trying to get my Testosterone higher, it was 385 last Oct and 487 now. Good news is that the Ray Peat diet dropped my prolactin (indicates tissue estrogen activity) from 12 to 7.7 which is almost normal.

    Anyway, besides the sugar the other principle is reducing polyunsaturated fats as much as you can. According to his research, the “EFAs” are not actually essential fatty acids, because if it you were to eat exactly zero of them (though not practical in the real world) you would create your own, mead acid, which is pro-metabolism unlike the anti-metabolic omega-6 and omega-3 fats.

    Now, I’m not a purist but a Peat purist would also say that your orange juice should have been no-pulp. The whole fiber and feeding your bacteria is generally frowned upon in the Peat world because bacteria create endotoxin.

  8. John on May 4, 2016 at 16:54

    I haven’t dropped a comment here in a while, but I’ve been listening to a lot of Danny Roddy’s stuff recently (which has been very good the past few months or so, and I dig his conversations with Georgi/Haidut), and am certainly a fan of Peat, although I certainly wouldn’t declare myself a “Peatatarian.”

    I think the two main things that are going on with the orange juice an milk hack is that fructose is lowering cortisol, and calcium is lowering PTH. Cortisol tends to rise when glycogen is low, as it spurs gluconeogenesis. Which makes sense, since if your blood sugar drops too low, nasty things like coma and death can set it. A cortisol spike helps you wake up in the morning, which is why Peat recommends something sugary (orange juice, honey, ice cream, even soda) at night before bed, and why a sugary drink can help you get back to sleep if you wake up in the middle of the night.

    PTH (Parathyroid Hormone) helps to keep your blood in a very tight Ph balance by getting calcium out of your bones. A great short team adaptation, as lots of proteins need that specific blood Ph to function, but elevated PTH can lead to a bunch of nasty things, like osteoporosis, soft tissue calcification, artheroscerosis and a lot of those other nasty degenerative diseases. Eating more calcium (and also vitamin D) will almost always lower PTH, unless you have a parathyroid tumor or something. This was probably part of the reason you felt so clam during your milk diet intervention.

    I think fructose is also supposed to lower phosphate in the blood, and improving the calcium to phosphate ratio is supposed to be a good way to lower serotonin, and even mainstream medicine is beginning to question if serotonin is the “happy hormone.” See “Is Serotonin an Upper or a Downer”

    And, of course, there is the case of William Brown back in 1936 (I think) who worked in William Burr’s lab, and agreed to eat a practically fat free diet for six months to attempt to induce “Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency,” which Burr’s lab had induced in Rat’s fed a PUFA free diet. William Brown’s metabolic quotent did match the rat’s but all the changes he experienced seemed to be positive, including lowering of blood pressure, loss of weight from 152 to 138 on what was thought to be a maintenence caloric intake of 2500 calories, a cure for the migranes he had suffered from (which didn’t return when he went back to a normal diet), and no fatigue at the end of a long day of work. They achieved this diet mainly with skim milk and liquid sucrose.

    By the way, I’m down 53 pounds over the past year using Colpo’s FLB plan, the Fitbit, and some Ray Peat tweaks (mainly more juice and dairy), and am feeling more energetic than previous times I’ve lost weight. I think keeping carbs and calcium higher than previous attempts has helped quite a bit, though walking about 15-20,000 steps a day probably has the most to do with it.

    • Paleophil on May 4, 2016 at 20:04

      Yes, I think Danny’s conversations with Georgi/Haidut may be his most interesting stuff yet.

  9. Perry on May 4, 2016 at 17:03

    This just in tonight from Guyanet. It shows historical tissue pufa levels. They are up! No surprise disease up too. Pufas in the body amplify and feed a viscous cycle of stress and further stress reaction creating inflammation, toxic breakdown products, and all manner of other bad things including slowing the metabolism. Pufas are anti-metabolic including omego 3’s as well as the well known demon – omega 6. Saturated fats alternatively attenuate stress reactions and quench the free radical production chain.

    Keeping stress reactions at bay means keeping free fatty acid release as low as possible and if one happens to have high tissue levels (look at the graph) it is an absolute imperative. So in ray peat land, not only is eating anything unsaturated a no-no, getting it out of one’s tissues is job 1. Otherwise any little thing you do is going to bomb you with pufa. Fast till 11:00am – pufa bomb. Run 5k, – pufa bomb. bad nights sleep – pufa bomb. Blue light at night, on and on. therefore, the hacks are constantly revolve around limiting the release of FFA

    So now we can see why LCHF is so damaging to the metabolism. Unwittingly, people eating LCHF are mimicking the state one is in during diabetes or any other condition where cellular energy can no longer be generated from glucose and there is a constant reliance on free fatty acids for fuel but modern day man is probably burning pufa for the FFA, extending and amplifying the stress reaction.

    So question arises. How do peaters every lose fat if free fatty acids are blocked from serum circulation? Answer, through the liver via glucuronadation. Peaters ideally pee out their fat as it naturally turns over!

    • Paleophil on May 4, 2016 at 19:59

      You beat me to it, Perry. Very relevant Guyenet paper given the Peaty topic, 🙂 and eye-opening. I also thought of it after reading Richard’s blog post.

      Richard, I applaud this post as I’ve been hoping you would investigate Peaty matters. I don’t agree with Peat on everything and I agree with you that he doesn’t give the microbiome its due, but I like this line of inquiry and experimentation and eagerly await any future reports and thoughts on it.

      While I’m not that fond of orange juice and the acidity and sugariness can still be a bit of a problem for me (fresh-squeezed is less of an issue than pasteurized), I like the creamsicle/Julius taste, smoothness and lower acidity of the OJ/milk combo and partake of it now and then. Can’t say I’ve noticed any benefit from it, but maybe I don’t yet metabolize it as well as you do. There are some good theoretical reasons why it could be beneficial, which Peat and Danny probably explain better than I could. Glad it served you well and best of luck with it and any other Peaty experiments. 🙂

      The NuSI stuff is also interesting. Haven’t looked at the keto crowd’s responses yet. They can’t blame this one on Ancel Keyes, militant vegans, or fat-phobes, given that it comes from their own demigod’s organization. If they think the study is fatally flawed, I hope they’ll constructively suggest to NuSI a better way to do it and not just criticize.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 06:47

      Hey Perry, thanks for that and I’ll check it out.

      Glad you like the post, Phil. Frankly I was a bit embarrassed to post it. It’s short, click baity, but it was just a convenient, off the cuff hack. I didn’t look for any protocols, just remember lots of people talking about Peat calling for OJ and milk as wholish food ways to get sufficient sugars to keep the body easily fueled, etc.

      So, I happened to have nearly a full half gal of OJ and gal of milk so just decided to pound that and see what happens. Then I start googling but so many sources, especially in various forums, so hence, how about if I can get the relevant info to come to me? 😉

      So, gents, supposing I incorporate OJ and whole milk into my standard mostly peasant fare, save for the three lavish dinners I make each week, how much is generally advised on a daily basis?

      I have no issue with digestion and in fact was quite surprised that a whopping 10 oz of straight Tropicana did not give me the slightest bit of that acidic burping and burning. I quite enjoyed having both first thing in AM. I’m guessing a small bedtime dose might aid in sleep as well.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 06:53

      Oh yea, and +1 on the OJ and milk mix, for that Orange Julius vibe. Been doing that now & then small scale for a long time, sometimes with PS or my prebiotic blend.

  10. Marc on May 5, 2016 at 06:53

    Over the years I’ve been able to understand Ray Peat more and more and I believe that the research is there to back up what admonishes. However…
    I believe (in short for non woo-woo, placebo) that what WE OURSELVES BELIEVE, is a very important part of the “success”you are personally after.
    As such we have to “align” ourselves with what makes most sense to us.
    I think we are ahead of the game if we pay attention to our own N=1 experiences and align ourselves
    with what we understand. My fundamental difference with Ray peat is this:
    “It seems that all of the problems of development and degeneration can be alleviated by the appropriate use of the energy-protective materials. When we realize that our human nature is problematic, we can begin to explore our best potentials.”

    I don’t believe our human nature is problematic …. Quite the contrary actually.

    “There’s chaos under heaven, and the situation is excellent”
    That quote came to mind as I was writing. 🙂

  11. Thhq on May 5, 2016 at 07:15

    When I think of ancestral diets I sometimes remember my grandpa’s practice of walking a mile to work every day and drinking a quart of buttermilk for lunch. Lived to 85, stroke after he retired.

    This is not Atkins, Paleo or Peat. More Norwegian, as they liked fermented milk. It’s refreshing and acidic but not a creamsicle. Looks like livestrong has already hacked it

  12. Steve on May 5, 2016 at 08:25

    I tried getting most of my carbs from sucrose/fructose for about 6 weeks to see what would happen. I ended up feeling like shit and my strength in the gym plummeted. I feel better on starches and my strength and energy in the gym stays consistent.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 08:29

      Yea, I’d never venture to do that. Two days to see what it was like.

      From here out, just part of the toolkit but definitely more carbs in potato and bean form, along with some whole grains.

  13. VicB on May 5, 2016 at 09:22


    “In a related poster, Hall presents data on the ketogenic diet. He measured fat loss on patients in his metabolic ward. He used either a regular diet or a ketogenic (very low carbohydrate diet). He showed that the ketogenic diet lowered insulin levels, people burned fat (measured by fat oxidation) and people lost more weight. Great.”

    “However, his fancy measurements of body fat also showed that the rate of body fat loss slowed down. So he said that this ‘proved’ that there is no metabolic advantage to ketogenic diets.”

    “Nonsense. I have my doubts whether this DXA scan can actually detect the fractions of pounds of fat lost. Anyway, the main point is that people lost weight and were still losing fat. However, what he mentions in passing is far more interesting. He notes that the ketogenic diet did not produce any slowing of the metabolism.”

    “That’s the gold medal, buddy!”

    “Over 25 days or so, there is no slowing of metabolism??? That’s the most important part of long-term weight loss! That’s the knife edge between success and failure. The difference between tears of joy and tears of sorrow. In the Biggest Loser, contestants had dropped their basal metabolic rate by 500 calories per day. In the ketogenic diet, they are still burning the same amount – EVEN AS THEY ARE LOSING WEIGHT.”

    • Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 09:57


      So, this looks like a cake and eat it too scenario. Out of one side of the mouth, see, caloric restriction is bad, and on the other, keto is good because metabolism didn’t drop (over the space of a month, of course, and in a met ward), failing to address the inherent bugaboo that the keto diet was ALSO calorie restricted.

      And, also, did those on the normal carb diet, calorie restricted to the same degree, also not drop metabolic function?

      Seems like picking and choosing what distinctions and highlights one wishes to make while not being terribly consistent about like variables, which is the whole point of this kind of study.

      Other issues I have with the whole deal is who in the hell wants to be on an 80% fat diet, requiring the adding of processed fat (even red meat is only about 50% fat calories)? This is so far from classic Atkins it’s not even funny. Remember, Atkins was like 30g carb for the first two weeks, and then 60-120g maintenance, per individual needs. 120g sends LCers to the fainting couch now with the vapors, because after decades of people stalling on LC, it’s never “well maybe some more carbs are called for;” it’s instead, more and more fat (hell, let’s eat butter by the stick and coconut cream by the tablespoon), less carbs and even more recently, oh, you have to restrict protein too, and ketostix won’t do it, you’ve got to measure blood ketones.

      It has, to me, reached levels of absurdity; whereas, if someone says to me, ‘hey, I feel really good in the 80-150g carb range (average 100-120) from whole foods along with sensible added fat, and I feel full, energetic, tend towards under eating because I’m so satisfied, have high energy and sleep well,’ then I’m sitting here clapping.

      So what’s the disconnect?

  14. DavidV on May 5, 2016 at 09:42

    I was LC Paleo for a long time but constantly struggled with brain fog:/low carb flu not matter how long I did LC (to adapt) or how much Saturated fat (I would drink raw cream) I tried to consume. I’m no Peatarian but adding sugar back into my diet did more to make me clear-minded than any diet intervention. Fruit and raw honey are my preferred sources, but table sugar works as well.

    Second, I’m very sensitive to caffeine. Coffee can easily make me jittery and I drink very little. However, when I drink caffeine with a heavy dose of sugar, I have no problems.

  15. Cathy on May 5, 2016 at 11:54

    I believe sugary tea has been historically used for shock, whether its I just had bad news or what not. I could be wrong, but I think its something.I like the Peat stuff too but I’m afraid I’d gain weight on all that sugar and feel like crap, too.
    There was a blog that now may be slumbering, CriticalMAS, which did a Peatatarian post. I think he tried the potato diet, too.

  16. Richard Nikoley on May 5, 2016 at 12:32

    New post, about Guyenet’s linoleic acid study, and my many year addiction to sunflower seeds.

  17. Evolutionarily on May 6, 2016 at 08:43

    I believe a more Peaty protocol would involve removing the pulp FYI

    • Richard Nikoley on May 6, 2016 at 09:20

      And that would be silly. It would be like saying juiced fruit is better than whole or nearly whole fruit. Dumb. No basis in evolution.

      I’ve said for years that the wholer you go, the better. But I always liked the pulp in OJ, so sticking with it. Plus, I’ll eat whole oranges from time to time.

    • DavidV on May 6, 2016 at 11:40

      While I don’t agree with Peat that pulp is a problem, I don’t buy the “juice is not evolutionary”. I’ve watched nature programs where chimps basically suck the juice from oranges.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 6, 2016 at 13:02

      Red Herring.

      We’re talking about evolutionary ancestors wth a fermenting hindgut that makes ours look like a bathtub still.

      Peat seams to be coming from a perspective that since we evolved away from massive gut fermentation as a primary access to nutrients, that it means we should starve the gut we have.

      Very fucking bad move. I don’t have time to elaborate, but in a nutshell, the gut is way to complex to manage. You have to trust evolution and feed it, and let the chemical warfare sort itself out. Safest, most prudent way. Starving the gut creates vacuum for pathogens or even overgrowths of beneficial. Feeding means balance by means of chemical warfare.

      Were at the child stage in this. Just starving it because you don’t understand it is like plugging your ears, covering your eyes, and plugging your mouth.

      Dumb on an astounding scale. He better get his head around this soon.

    • DavidV on May 6, 2016 at 13:17

      I don’t buy the red herring comment. Arguing that juice has evolutionary roots or at least is not “harmful” as the Paleo community asserts does not mean we should starve our gut. I agree that Peat followers seems take an extreme view of gut bacteria. The Danny Roddy podcast has discussed that taking antibiotics makes you healthy by killing bacteria in the gut and lowering endotoxin. This is dangerous, and I personally know people who got C-diff after being treated with heavy antibiotics for MRSA.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 6, 2016 at 13:46


      Yes, your experience reflects what I’m saying.

      But what I mean is that in a sense, Peat, by disregarding the gut or diminishing it’s importance was forced to understand how we might run metabolism germ free.

      The germ free is wrong, misguided, ignorant, and needlessly reductionist (endotoxins, without integrating the yin of the yang….emerying is always in negative-positive feedback flux).

      But, curiously, perhaps he came up with a model that’s even better when you feed the gut too.

      See? Integrate everything valid. That’s what I do. It’s essentially all I do. I’m the Borg.

    • DavidV on May 6, 2016 at 13:55

      Agreed. Actually, I just finished my first Potato Hack. I bought the book. here are results:
      5’11”, 41 yrs old,
      Used Russet potatoes that I baked in the oven. I also drank one cup of green tea with sugar (I know that breaks the rules, but. …).
      Day 0 – 195.8 pounds
      Day 1 – 193.8
      Day 2 – 192.6
      Day 3 – 191.8
      By day three my hunger/ appetite had almost vanished but I did have a craving for foods other than potatoes. I had high energy most of the time although by day 3 the energy became a little bit like nervous energy. My appetite had dropped so low my calorie intake was very low on day 3.

      The biggest thing I got from Peat is that sugar, especially when gotten from whole foods, is not the dietary hobgoblin that Paleo has made it out to be.

  18. Evolutionarily on May 6, 2016 at 09:00

    Couple comments:

    1) I’m also intrigued by Peat, it’s fascinating how much he appears to have independently got right and it and makes you wonder if he has glimpsed a pattern or higher (or lower) level principles that no one else in the ancestral community has seen yet. However I can’t reconcile (yet) his general thesis to avoid feeding the microbiome, with the latest ancestral approach of eat real foods and take care of your gut bugs.

    2) I don’t see you often talking about Paul Jaminet and Perfect Health Diet. It seems to me his protocol is completely in line with your latest peasant diet framework. He may say to avoid a few things here and there that you Richard have come around to lately, however he is very conservative and putting out a public message. He says avoid Legumes, but various threads in his Facebook group show PHD is generally OK with them if you’re not sick, can tolerate, prepare them well, etc. I think it is very reasonable that he is giving a framework that is going to best for everyone coming from SAD, and that if you had a nice family dinner with him he just might not decline a slice of the sourdough you’re offering.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 6, 2016 at 09:27

      Paul is a wonderful human being, in spite of his belief in sky fairies and literal interpretations of the “writings” of goat herders.

      He doesn’t need my help. His is a more Asian interpretation, mine a more Euro.

      Swap out rice for potatoes and a different set of greens usually, some seafood for land food but in similar modest proportion.

      We’re not terribly far off, I don’t think.

      Add a touch of Peat, as I’m doing, and make it even better. I would never attach “Perfect” to anything I do. That would be a level of hubris I can’t allow myself.

      My hubris ends with telling people to fuck off when I want.

  19. Perry on May 6, 2016 at 14:26

    Jeez, people will be ignorant won’t they. Dumb cunts on here have no idea what Peat thinks but doesn’t stop anybody from mouthing off.

    This whole site is in fact click bait.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 7, 2016 at 10:36

      “This whole site is in fact click bait.”

      Says a lot about you then, that you’d bother to:

      1. Come here in the first place.
      2. Read the posts.
      3. Read the comments enough to presumably assess their worth.
      4. Comment on the quality of them (including the 16 other comments you posted).

      What’s your beef, anyway? That people are discussing Peat, but not necessarily going to church on every jot & tittle of doctrine?

    • perry on May 9, 2016 at 13:12

      You will get there, I have confidence in you. But you’d better hurry, looking a little stressed.

      P.s. Please tell tim to add milk to his potato hack. Peat says a man can live a very long time in health before a deficiency pops up just eating those two things.

      p.s. #2 Takes some time to learn what Peat is really about. You are terribly mis-representing him. You owe it to all the people you hurt with your bad past dietary advice. They (and you) can use peat to heal.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 9, 2016 at 18:16

      And, now you are done here. Feel free to go back to the conclave and relay to the faithful that you have administered salvation to the heathens.

      I am going to put you in the mod queue. That means, you are now my bitch, or nothing. Feel free to post again, but I will read every post prior, to make sure it ads legitimate value to my other readers. If I pass it through, you’ll know. If not, you will get no notice.

  20. Denise G on May 6, 2016 at 15:53

    I got interested in Peat a couple years ago (because of major thyroid issues) and as an experiment started drinking OJ first thing every morning. Within a very short time, I had pretty much cured my hypoglycemia. It was a mind-blowing experience, because it made me realize that I had given myself hypoglycemia by eating VLC for only three measly weeks about 15 years ago (fortunately I didn’t keep it up–I was only doing it as moral support for my BF anyway). I’ve read about people damaging themselves with VLC done for a long time, but three weeks?!? I had always thought that the short stint of VLC had uncovered an underlying weakness. Now I know that VLC was the bad guy. Needless to say, no one will ever convince me to do such a stupid thing again. I now also (thanks to Peat) add about a teaspoon of sugar to my coffee. That plus the OJ has totally eliminated any morning blood sugar crashes, no matter what I eat. Lucky Charms? No problem! Pancakes drowning in syrup? Bring it on! This discovery undermined everything I thought I knew about my health, and I vowed never to “believe” in anything health related ever again. I will forever be grateful to Peat about the OJ though.

    The summer after I discovered all this I had an orange julius (including egg) almost every morning for breakfast. It was heavenly.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 6, 2016 at 17:24


      I hear you, and a person ought to be able to handle sugars and I now think of it as “metabolic exercise;” whereas, I regard VLC (but not moderate LC) as “couch potato metabolism.” They fuck themselves up so much that a tsp of sugar sends them into shock, like a flight of stairs renders 300 bpm to someone who “knows” they can’t exercise, because that!

      That said, I have to say I doubt that 3 weeks of VLC did that damage long lasting. We’re way more resilient that that or we wouldn’t exist.

      It’s the Keith Richards Principle. It’s awful, but the funniest meme I saw in the aftermath of the Prince awfulness was ‘Keif’ sitting on a couch reading the paper. “Hey, Mic, I just outlived another one.”

      Focus on being on the right track. I doubt you’ll ever know the true root cause, so let it go. Look forward.

  21. Denise G on May 8, 2016 at 17:00

    I’m sure you’re right, and it doesn’t really matter, so long as it’s fixed now and I’ve learned my lesson. My next step is to take a page out of Wilbur’s book and use some glucomannan to reduce my blood sugar issues to zero.

    Have you seen the studies about OJ reducing inflammation? You can pretty much negate the inflammatory effects of a HFHC breakfast just by drinking OJ with it (here’s one:

  22. Steve on May 21, 2016 at 15:46

    I don’t get the Ray peat diet- very restrictive and not very satiating.

  23. Chris Meyers on November 4, 2017 at 08:16

    I have Lyme disease and consequently am on multiple cyclical antibiotics pretty much permanently. In my search for a healing diet I found Ray Peat’s work. It has made the single largest improvement in my life that anything I have done upto that point. To specifically address the point that your gut needs the fiber and bacteria, I used to think that too. I have evolved in my thinking after realizing that creating an antiseptic environment in your gut can infact be even better. That is, yes we may have evolved with fiber and the resulting gut bacteria, but that removing them as much as possible makes everything work more effortlessly. So between the milk and fruit aspect and absolutely zero PUFAs (no vegetable or seed oils, no beans, no grains) I am in perfect health.

    • Richard Nikoley on November 4, 2017 at 08:29

      Well, OK, but you come from a place of having a problem. This is a technique that worked for you. Good.

      Similarly, someone with an inflamed or septic appendix will do best having it removed, even though it has a function of reseeding the gut after a bout of gut problems that wipes out populations. Doesn’t mean you or anyone ought to have it removed prophylactically.

    • Johnny on May 17, 2018 at 22:45

      Hey Chris, how strict are you with reducing fibre? Are you zero starch/zero whole fruit?

  24. Chris Highcock on July 12, 2019 at 03:41

    I’m reading at the moment.

    The first time I think I’ve actually started to understand Peat.

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