This morning
You would never be able to predict when I’m asleep or awake. Some days, I’ll get my sleep from mid-afternoon until early evening and then be up all night.
I scoff at all the “circadian rhythm” stuff people now tout—they, having gotten bored with food…but still feel a need to assert that you can’t possibly figure out how to live a perfectly weird human life without exponentially weirder interventions.
I said I was going to take on the Anti-Vaxxer deal and indeed I am. Lots of stuff went up on Facebook over the last many hours as I was digging.
It’s actually worse than I thought.
At first, I had thought I’d be a bit conciliatory: honest mistake, forgivable ignorance, etc.
Nope. When you dig, these people are really fucking evil. Astoundingly so. And where innocent, they’re so ignorant that they ought be publicly stripped of all credibility. That’s why I stayed completely clear for years and years. I was not that interested to look into it, but there were surface elements that told me I certainly did not want to side with all those who often hold similar philosophical and political views as I do.
Dodged that bullet; because had I not, I’d be compelled to come clean in a very big way, now that I have taken the time to see just about everything relevant.
Anyway, two to three very substantial posts forthcoming. For your amusement, in the meantime….
Examples of things far less effective than vaccines in terms of good outcomes:
– seat belts
– trigger safeties
– air bags
– cancer treatments
– condoms
– safety harnesses
– life vests
– helmets
– parking brakes
– air filters
– bulletproof vests
– bulletproof coffee
– literally everything touted as bulletproof.
– mop buckets
– swimming pools
– fences around swimming pools
– mop buckets inside fenced swimming pools
– dogs
– dogs on leashes
– cute dogs
– hiking boots
– camelbacks
– hiking in the wilderness with hiking boots and camelbacks, with dogs
– food
– leftover food
– food prepared by others
– the leftover food from others
– church potlucks that is often the leftover food from others
– prayer
– hopes
– fears
– dreams
– aspirations
– Facebook posts
Cya.
Dan 
I learned a lot from your anti vaxxer threads on FB. I had put it on the list to investigate a bit as we are thinking about kids next yr. It was never on my radar as I have been jabbed with everything imaginable in the defence force, 15 minutes reading the threads (not even the links you posted, which were themselves awesome) – the “arguments” like “you tell my son he didn’t get sick from vaccines” or “you watch this video and tell me they are safe”. Dunning Kruger everywhere. Dismissed.
Well, I’ve just gotten started and looks like I’ve already attained the “If just one child” milestone.
Thanks, sir.
Think big, wide, on your own.
There is no question that vaccinations of children carry with them a very small adequately reported and quantified risk. My children are fully vaccinated.
Against a backdrop of herd immunity, elimination of many horrific and preventable diseases and immense individual and societal benefit is a set of bizarre lies, blatant distortion of risk versus reward and absolutely no alternative option with even a remote degree of universal ease of implementation and administration.
Good luck stirring that hornets nest. I did it years ago. I came to realise I really am a
person that once I stopped arguing about nutrition, exercise, and health on the web and Facebook my life become a lot more fulfilled.
Richard, you may be interested to know that some of the worst child rearing health woo I came across had its roots firmly wrapped up in the paleo sphere.
If you successfully undermined the dogma in that dietary camp , maybe you could strike a similarly effective blow in that mad parenting minority within the paleo sphere.
We’ll see how it goes.
Have collected tons of stuff and have a pretty solid outline of approach in my head.
“absolutely no alternative option with even a remote degree of universal ease of implementation and administration”
Don’t you realize that this is the Pro-vax mandate stance of SB277? Every vaccine, every person, on schedule, every time?
See, this just shows me that you haven’t read the actual law.
First, it talks about TEN diseases and there is the subsequent-PBE-exemption language. So every vaccine? False.
Second, there are medical exemptions and other relevant differences. Plus you are free to homeschool your little darlings and keep them vaccine-free. So every person? False.
On Schedule? Nope, SB277 is silent on the timing.
Every time? Nope. Read the actual law.
Wakey, wakey Richard!
Do you really think that Govt, Big Ag, Big Pharm have our best interests at heart?
Google methylation (MTHFR deletions), Stephanie Seneff, immune function/microbiome, and finally sheeple.
Then tell me that it’s not possible for a child with an immune system that is compromised by ingestion of agricultural pesticides/toxins to have an adverse reaction to a medical intervention that primarily effects immune response.
Don’t be so quick to dismiss others N=1 observations. It happened to my youngest child and opening my eyes pretty swiftly to what is going on. I’m not talking the 8 vaccinations we had when we were young. I’m talking about the current schedule.
Do your own investigation.
“Do you really think that Govt, Big Ag, Big Pharm have our best interests at heart?”
False comparison. Individuals, by and large, are of good will and have charitable interests toward their fellow man and society at large.
Many of them are in the employ of all of those institutions. While institutional bias does exist and there’s always organizational pressure to advance the institution, believing that it is principally working for our destruction on purpose is tin-foil-hat territory.
Very true, although the same criticism could be levied on the ways libertarian ideas are often communicated — referring to “the state” as a monolith bent on control, or what have you, rather than a collection of individuals who’ve all bought into the same bad idea.
““Do you really think that Govt, Big Ag, Big Pharm have our best interests at heart?”
False comparison. Individuals, by and large, are of good will and have charitable interests toward their fellow man and society at large.
Many of them are in the employ of all of those institutions. While institutional bias does exist and there’s always organizational pressure to advance the institution, believing that it is principally working for our destruction on purpose is tin-foil-hat territory.”
I don’t get why it’s false comparisons… Maybe they are not working for our destruction on purpose but if that is a side effect of profit so be it… or in the case of Government, self preservations or self advancement
This post seems really poorly thought out and your logic is totally at odds with so much of what you have written about previously.
BTW, Luise S:
I sincerely want you to know that I don’t care what you “think.” To discuss this with you would be tantamount to going into the jungle to strike up a conversation with the screeching monkeys.
While I’ve collected upwards of 100 references now and have read many of them since 3 am Sunday morning, here’s just my latest laf, posted to Facebook earlier.
~~~
Making fun of Anti-Vaxx morons on a daily basis, now.
I am digging very deep.
I want to demonstrate that no matter how deep I dig, they will still cling to their Bibles.
~~~
The modeling of infectious diseases is a tool which has been used to study the mechanisms by which diseases spread, to predict the future course of an outbreak and to evaluate strategies to control an epidemic (Daley & Gani, 2005).
The first scientist who systematically tried to quantify causes of death was John Graunt in his book Natural and Political Observations made upon the Bills of Mortality, in 1662. The bills he studied were listings of numbers and causes of deaths published weekly. Graunt’s analysis of causes of death is considered the beginning of the “theory of competing risks” which according to Daley and Gani (Daley & Gani, 2005, p. 2) is “a theory that is now well established among modern epidemiologists”.
The earliest account of mathematical modeling of spread of disease was carried out in 1766 by Daniel Bernoulli. Trained as a physician, Bernoulli created a mathematical model to defend the practice of inoculating against smallpox (Hethcote, 2000). The calculations from this model showed that universal inoculation against smallpox would increase the life expectancy from 26 years 7 months to 29 years 9 months (Bernoulli & Blower, 2004).
Daniel Bernoulli’s work preceded our modern understanding of germ theory, and it was not until the research of Ronald Ross into the spread of malaria, that modern theoretical epidemiology began. This was soon followed by the work of A. G. McKendrick and W. O. Kermack, whose paper A Contribution to the Mathematical Theory of Epidemics was published in 1927. A simple deterministic (compartmental) model was formulated in this paper. The model was successful in predicting the behavior of outbreaks very similar to that observed in many recorded epidemics (Brauer & Castillo-Chavez, 2001).
~~~
This is going to be fun. And Louise will keep holding her Bible very firmly.
Richard, I’m not telling you what I think. I asked what you thought about corporations having our best interests at heart. I agree that “Individuals, by and large, are of good will”, but corporations and businesses function differently than do individuals. There is an expectation of toeing the line or losing your job. There is also an expectation of doing what is good for the bottom line. Whistle blowers are starting to come forward with evidence of scientific fraud and we need to pay attention.
You didn’t address the rest of my response, only threw out the “tin foil hat” comment which was not appreciated. I am not denigrating you, only suggesting that you investigate viable and intelligent alternatives to the current mainstream paradigm before calling names.
I understand germ theory (although I now realize that nutritional status and immune response (gut microbiota) have much more of an impact on health than does the presence or absence of pathogenic bacterial/viral organisms) and was pro-vaccine until our daughter was impacted. Our 20 year old son (born 1996) made it through all of his vaccines with no adverse reactions, not so with our daughter (born 2001). She lost fine motor and speech development within a month of her 15 month MMR (after a significantly high fever which I was told to treat with Tylenol). The Doctor said it was a coincidence so I carried on vaccinating on schedule. With her 7 year MMR booster/DPT combo she developed Tourette’s, autoimmunity (PANDAS) and eventually developed 2 chronic infections usually only found in immunosuppressed patients, bartonella and babesia.
Please consider the information in the following video and the dates Seneff relates to increased glyphosate usage on grains/legumes. Glyphosate use is not restricted to GMO’s only. It is routinely used to dry down non-GM crops (wheat, barley, potatoes, legumes) to facilitate harvest. Essentially, if you purchase food that isn’t organic, it is sprayed with pesticides or fungicides. If you take time to investigate you will find that glyphosate was originally developed for use as a chelator. It binds minerals very efficiently rendering them unavailable for digestion. It also acts as an antibiotic, killing beneficial gut bacteria potentially impacting immune function.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3P6wVUH0pc
Our daughter’s negative response to vaccination started my investigation into diet etc. I couldn’t believe that any CDC- recommended medical procedure could cause her harm so I assumed she had some sort of dietary intolerance.
This brought me to your site, and I have been following since 2010. All the way through your Paleo (all meat/fat) recommendations (that N=1 didn’t work for us so we switched to PerfectHealthDiet, WAPF) and your raw starch supplementation (N=1 didn’t work there either, but cooked/cooled resistant starch and probiotics/fermented foods did). I read everything listed on your blog roll and learned a lot. The most important of which was to think for myself and to consider that my own observations were at least as important as those of other “experts”. I liked the fact that you had your own opinion and weren’t swayed by the mainstream.
Please don’t assume that I am a bible thumper. I am a mother who has worked very hard to recover her daughter with an organic WAPF diet, probiotic supplementation and a number of other antimicrobials and supplements. She is completely asymptomatic and neurotypical now, and I have you (among others) to thank for it.
But she will never be vaccinated again. Fortunately I live in Canada and still have the choice.
Hey Louise.
Damn. Well, thanks for putting it out and thanks for reading this hack over six years. I have to think I’m accidentally doing a thing or two right. It’s my preferred inspiration. Not as big a fan of huge fans, though I am a fan of fans.
“I asked what you thought about corporations having our best interests at heart.”
My issue, and I’m persnickety about these things, is you conflated a massive institution that exists only by forcing people to pay them, which is a concretely real institution, with syntheses of institutions (big biz, big pharm, etc) that are not institutions in themselves, but are analogs or concepts by which people form ways of grasping things.
But it’s a gross conflation and there’s no way I could hope to deal with it without unpacking it all. The latter are made up of businesses, good or bad, who do not have the privilege of taxation authority and this is an enormous distinction people conflate all the time.
I really have zero desire to explain all that’s wrong in this sort of thinking because it would take too much time not worth it for me to spend.
I hate you have had a bad experience with a child. Truly. But as someone who sits here where far more are likely to to tell me of their outlier experience than are billions going to tell me of their OK or just fine experience, I have to kinda play role of a judge, on these matters.
I think you probably understand that, given the general cogent and rational gist of your welcome comment.
Found this interesting.
“The number of measles deaths declined from 7575 in 1920 (10,000 per year in many years in the 1910s) to an average of 432 each year from 1958-1962.22 The vaccine was introduced in 1963. Between 2005 and 2014, there have been no deaths from measles in the U.S. and 108 deaths reported after the MMR vaccine.23”
Bottom of the page.
http://www.westonaprice.org/press/public-health-officials-know-recently-vaccinated-individuals-spread-disease/
Unfortunately Steven, to most folks here WAPF is not a credible reference and deserves only to be ignored.
A citation from the Merck manual would be more appropriate here.
“Found this interesting.
“The number of measles deaths declined….” bla bla bla
I don’t find it interesting.
The anti-vax is absolutely rife with the sort of conflation you fell into (and Louise looked at your source, dismissed it without realizing it supports her position, and erroneously spoke for me. I regard Price and WAPF highly credible, within limits).
There are life cycles to most infections. For example, right now up here in the Sierras, there are literally millions of dead trees. I was spared. Only 1 in about 100 trees on my property fell victim. Others lost all their trees.
Bark beetles. A tree can defend, but it needs water to create the sap to block them. Push, pull, yin, yang. We had a few years of drought-like, serendipitous (didn’t happen last drought in late 80s) and the beetles were primed to eat. Longer term, probably good because less trees means more water for defenses in decades or centuries to come.
Same shit goes on with viruses and it has almost nothing to do with the debate.
Vaccinations, generally speaking, are highly effective (way better with high compliance) and come with very low DOCUMENTED risk, but ENORMOUS potential for anecdotal assignment of risk for everything that may come recently after, including ingrown toe nails, diarrhea, and heartburn.
So, whether by nature, accident, evolved human behaviors, this stuff with evolve and cycle on its own, and in response to stimuli we might not even have considered.
Since the vaccine was introduced, there have only been upsurges in measles outbreaks in various pockets of Fucktardistans here and there (I believe there was one in France I read about). I noted that anti vaxx love general epidemiology but never mention very localized epidemiology where vaccinated villages are spared an unvaccinated are overrun.
I’ve already spent too much time on this aspect of the post. Jesus Fuck, already.
I cannot believe how abject stupidity and the desire to fit in with a generalized narrative pervades and persists.
So this goes to several points.
I will use climate change as an example. I see no distinct difference as far as the science goes and how it is applied. 97% percent of the worlds experts agree man made global warming = bad… Experts agree vaccines are good. No difference.
Maybe those looking to prove vaccines efficacy and safety chose to over look data readily available? Or even fudge numbers? Every side has a voice. I choose to oppose what the FDA/USDA/AMA etc… say as they were all founded with the idea of convincing people that certain things are safe/true. They were formed to help big corporations more than to protect people.
Also, people like Ancel Keys are all over the medical field. He is the norm not an out lier. The last great science happened with German scientists decades ago when they were funded just to really understand things vs getting funding to prove a point.
I truly do not buy the sciences anymore.
Climate Science=Scam
Quantum Physics=Scam (I believe Tesla’s plasma theory explains things way better)
Nutrition Science=Scam
Medical Science=Scam | Because help= http://www.businessinsider.com/west-virginias-solution-to-the-opioid-crisis-2016-4
Soap has saved more lives. General cleanliness has saved more lives. Clean water has saved more lives. Good,ancestral nutrition has saved more lives.
Those vaccines were tested at times in history that had a way different toxic load on a body. Women today give birth way later in life. Foods are different, genetically. So many confounders. New things as far as pollutants.
Plus as far as the vaccine world goes, why are they using way old methods to administer vaccines? Most bugs come via touch/breathing etc… Why not come up airborne vaccines? Probably because the ROI is shit.
To many anecdotes from regular people to disprove what they are saying with a simple hand wave. A dear friend of mine, someone I have known near 30 years has 3 kids. Two oldest kids were vaccinated and ended up on the Autism spectrum. The 3rd kid was vaccine free and she is a normal annoying/chatty/healthy/funny kid with no health issues like her siblings.
Did vaccines help? I am absolutely sure they did. How did they help? I am not so sure. If we are looking at lives saved then you can argue a decent point.. But what damage was done in the process… My guess is those numbers will never truly be known. To many variables. Trend lines do not lie when we look at pre and post vaccinations. Those trends on most diseases were headed south and my guess vaccines may have accelerated them a little.
This all deserves a closer look.
Merry Christmas.
“I see no distinct difference”
NO DISTINCT difference.
Well, sir, you are conflating analogy and there’s no need for me to look further. Not sure whether you’re being sloppy, or what.
…Let me offer a tiny little slight hint.
Vaccination science looks backwards and has self-corrected many, many times in formulations.
The “climate change” scam, what used to be called “global warming”—until that wasn’t true,—predicts decades and centuries into the future.
NO DISTINCT DIFFERENCE?
Well, guess the science is settled. Better listen to it.
I didn’t say that either.
LOL!!!
http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/dec/20/mumps-hitting-state-s-marshallese-hard-/?f=news-arkansas
While I think the science of Vaccines is sound I have some concerns.
1) Letting the government give blanket immunity to the makers of vaccines. Giving that kind of trust to the vaccine makers who are more concerned with their shareholders is concerning.
2) I am 36 and with 2 year old daughters. The schedule of vaccines has multiplied in a very short time period. Who is deciding to increase the schedule so quickly? The CDC is a corporate revolving door.
3) Have you looked into the HPV vaccine? I believe multiple countries have already banned it from their schedule.
“who are more concerned with their shareholders”
Question begging fallacy. Plus, false dichotomy.
“The schedule of vaccines has multiplied in a very short time period.”
On my list to look into. I got the bread and butter vaccines in the 1960s.
My suspicion is that they have now been shown generally to be so safe and effective to 99%+ that companies are now coming out with boutique vaccines, more about Valley Girl convenience than the enormous INconvenience of an important risk of death.
That said, even if so, this in no way constitutes an argument against immunology. I would only vaccinate against stuff with an important chance of infection if exposed to non vaccinated peoples (numbers rising on that, so a more important factor than in decades) and if infected, an important chance of death.
For instance, I would see no need to vaccinate against chicken pox. I had it as a kid. The week sucked, then it was gone. Haven’t looked into it, but I doubt it’s deadly generally.
I was about to mention chicken pox.
So, how do you feel about the flu vaccine?
Personally, I think the vaccination argument is a red herring. The bigger issue is:
Where are these diseases coming from?
There is a common denominator here.
I’m at very low risk for both infection or death from Flu infection. I’ve been pretty sick a few times (mostly as a kid). Maybe one or more was actual flu virus, but I would not know. Never clinically diagnosed.
For me, it’s a sorta boutique thing that’s very much not like other objectively killer diseases. Your choice. Similar to the common cold–which is a relatively innocuous annoyance, causing “vaccination” annually in billions (the cold virus is the biggest vaccinator by far)–it seems to have a season and can be targeted. That means, effectiveness is going to be target practice.
Might be a decent precaution for those in a health state that’s highly unsure about survival.
I read a lot of articles way back that vitamin D staus is highly associated with natural immunity. But I’m not sure….
“For instance, I would see no need to vaccinate against chicken pox. I had it as a kid. The week sucked, then it was gone. Haven’t looked into it, but I doubt it’s deadly generally.”
The problem is that soon you won’t have that choice to make for yourself, it will be made for you. Any number, any time.
California and Australia are only the start.
Yea, well, I’m not in favor of mandatory, and it doesn’t bear on the argument of effectiveness, safety, risk/reward of any particular vaccine.
“For instance, I would see no need to vaccinate against chicken pox. I had it as a kid. The week sucked, then it was gone. Haven’t looked into it, but I doubt it’s deadly generally.”
I used to agree with that, then someone I work with developed shingles
“My issue, and I’m persnickety about these things, is you conflated a massive institution that exists only by forcing people to pay them, which is a concretely real institution, with syntheses of institutions (big biz, big pharm, etc) that are not institutions in themselves…”
Governments pay the vaccine producing pharmaceutical companies for scheduled vaccinations, and a portion of that payment goes towards payouts to those who successfully claim for vaccine injury.
Where do these government monies come from? They come from our taxes. Tax payment is compulsory, therefore we are being forced to pay the vaccine producing pharmaceutical companies for both the production of their product as well as for any successful injury claims made against them.
This is not an institution?
“…and Louise looked at your source, dismissed it without realizing it supports her position, and erroneously spoke for me. I regard Price and WAPF highly credible, within limits.”
Richard, you couldn’t tell I was being sarcastic? Of course Steven’s post supported my position. But you wouldn’t consider reading anything that supported my position unless, as I said, it was cited from the Merck manual. WAFP isn’t exactly the mainstream, just a bunch of quacks in the eyes of many.
Not seeing my post you quoted Louise. I know it’s accurate, just not in the right place.
Any paradigm that violates individual sovereignty and is marketed through faith in a criminal medical monopoly is sociopathic at best and deserves base rejection. Nothing ever gets done until something gets sold. Even morons know enough not to buy what the thieves are selling. Fuck gov’t and all its bedfellows.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
False alternative fallacy, Raymond.
One ought to evaluate benefits to self, loved ones, and their cherished society on the accessible merits.
It is a curious world we live in, there gangsters actually bring a thing or two on offer. Very, very rarely, it’s actually a jewel of great pride.
Vaccination immunology, going since 200 years and more, is the most astounding human achievement of all time. On its own merits.
While I remain mildly misanthropic, it is always targeted towards those who deserve it.
No infant the world over has every deserved it.
Vaccines give infants a chance to grow up to become focussed misanthropes like you and I, Raymond, and we can take on all the fucktards for sport.
You must expand your vision and allow a bit of optimism, Raymond. We live in rather optimistic times. You can’t have everything, but this whole thing restored a little faith for me.
Richard,
Violation of the non-aggression principle does not manifest expansion of vision nor optimism, and pragmatism (aversion to principle) is not correlated with merit(s). However I do not seek the conversion of others to surrender individual sovereignty to gov’t and/or the criminal medical monopoly, nor to faith in the opposite paradigm that vaccines should be banned. I remain consistent in philosophy invulnerable to sophistry. I reject faith in all forms, as every leap of faith is a tax on consciousness. Ego is always dysfunctional. Something that is forced can not be sold. A majority of one is still a majority, I need not do what others say I “must”. However it does not confront me that you feel I must. It’s very interesting to study your shadow since the election. Enjoy your retreat. You don’t owe anyone anything. There is no separateness, it all comes back to you. Optimism is not key to witholding or giving away. Freedom is not for all men, it’s only for those who seek it. It’s not a contact sport. It’s an individual choice, and there are no excuses for those who reject it. I am for the living, let the dying bury the dead.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
Perhaps not a parent here because I’ve been using Facebook as the “sounding board.”
But, I oppose mandatory vaccination just as much as I would oppose their prohibition.
My approach is typical of a voluntariist. I aim to show why it’s better to take the shot and to shoot up the infants, even if you don’t have to.
Imagine that. A world of persuasion, over advocating one side or the other of the coin flip of force.
“A world of persuasion, over advocating one side or the other of the coin flip of force.” is exactly what most “anti-vax” people would welcome. Since “advocating” hasn’t produced enough profits, I mean, appropriate vaccination rates, the government’s approach is to rely on mandatory practices (see Richard Pan in CA…I believe he’ll soon introduce mandatory adult vaccines) . This harbors a YUGE amount of resentment and basically recruits more zealots to the fringe side of the reasonable curve. The “anti-vax” label is an interesting one. I can tip my hat to Alexander Fleming for discovering penicillin but I’m not going to take EVERY antibiotic for every head cold or cough. Does that make me “anti-antibiotic”? But asking a question or two about the Hep-B vaccination for a 8lb child warrants a call to CPS? Zealots on both sides…
Richard,
Keep digging! Grateful you’ve decided to take it on.
Context… I believe I’m allowed to speak on kids.
Blended family , 6 kids. 5 mine, and 1 my wife’s son.
Me born and raised in Europe, classic vax schedule. Had chicken pox ((no vax)
Kids ages -22-20-18-16-9 and 19 months .
First 5 kids all had “normal vax schedules”
First 1 born in 1994 had 8 different vaccinations plus boosters.
By the time 16 year old came around in the year 2000 from memory it jumped to 13…
But for 9 year old…his count was 21.
Naturally when we planned to have a little love baby….I started doing some homework.
i came to learn a lot …I had to put some irrational fears aside (this is very hard to do when you’re talking about on of the most important things in your life) and after MUCH research AND personal correspondence with Stephanie Seneff, my wife and I looked hard to find a pediatrician we trusted and that wasn’t a fucktard , that helped us structure a smart vaccination schedule of staggered admission and 1 dose (no cocktail) applications. Kinda like the old days .
To all, please do your homework as to some of the newer stuff out there…big time buyer beware.
As such, we did not have “hep-b” administered at birth.
I do believe a strong immunity is critical prior to getting vax administered and sadly so many little ones are just not doing all that hot to often.
Breastfeeding is a huge deal….. HUGE. TO ALL YOU WOMAN, BE PROUD, It’s one of natures most beautiful and RIGHT things , and here in the U.S, we’ve fucked woman all up about it. That needs to change imho.
Anywho, ask away .
Could you tell me which one’s you decided to get and what the schedule was? I’m expecting a little one in April and I would much appreciate the info.
Thanks!
When the turtle’s head touches cloth, you know it’s time to go.
One of our grands is on a delayed schedule — still getting all the vaccines, just one at a time. His dad has a tic disorder and Mom has rheumatoid arthritis. I’ve never seen reliable evidence that vaccines contribute to the development of either of those conditions, but a delayed schedule seemed a reasonable way to have our cake and eat it too. His pediatrician agreed, saying there’s no medical advantage to clustering them; it’s just more cost-effective and convenient, and compliance is higher.
This should be interesting.
I’m one of those that was damaged by a hepatitis B vaccine about 10 years ago. I had standard fare psoriasis from the time I was about 21 which was linked to being poisoned which messed up my immune system.
10 years ago when did the vaccine it went into full-fledged psoriatic arthritis. I did some research with a doctor and found I am not alone. When I did the shots over a six-month period my symptoms progressively got worse.
After all the research I’ve done along with my doctor’s assistant we’ve come to the conclusion that it was the vaccines as everything that came about as documented in other people along with various lawsuits. I didn’t Discover it until well beyond the statute of limitations for vaccine damage.
I get what you are saying in regards to how many people vaccines have helped and is there a greater societal need for people to volunteer to get vaccines rather than forcing them to.
The way I see it if there were truly an open and honest discussion about vaccines the potential side effects and all of the symptoms linked we would have far less resistance. People genuinely want to make educated decisions but it’s very difficult to when those medical agencies and institutions that are there to protect us keep secrets.
Thanks for a reasonable and sane comment, Steven.
You know, in some odd cases, seatbelts actually do more harm, even kill where a person might have had a better chance of survival without them.
True story and funny/not funny…
An old family friend of ours going back twenty years was driving a Pontiac Fiero. She was t-boned on the driver’s side and this was before seat belt laws. Fortunately she was not wearing her seat belt and was pushed into the passenger seat. She was bruised up pretty badly and if I recall correctly a hairline fracture of her collarbone.
One thing I’ve learned is Never Say Never and never say always.
Generalities exist for a reason. And in every case, there I am saying always, there are outliers. I fully realize I am in the overwhelming majority of damaged cases from a vaccine.
I’m doing a chelation protocol now and this n = one experiment has been hell. I know there have been a lot of autistic kids that have been helped with this protocol as well.
Do I believe that the vaccine damage of those kids, some way yes. I also have a propensity to believe that a lot of those kids were more inclined to be autistic because of the mothers bearing the child later in life.
The older the woman the more likely the child is to be autistic.
Anyway Count Me In along for the ride.
I had a red Fiero. It was my first new car…My “Ensignmobile” right out of college, with paycheck in 1984.
The center console between the two seats is large and high (where the gas tank is, actually, cause it was a mid-engine car). But yea man, a strong enough side impact and you could get crushed from the waist down if restrained by a belt.
After years in production and getting it right, finally, that car was great. Then they cancelled it.
They said it was not selling, which is kind of bs. My guess is because of the safety reason. A part of which you stated.
Again, it’s the lack of openness on a corporations behalf. I get it though. They just can’t come out and say our product is unsafe. In this case safety standards matured faster than the car could.
As far as vaccines go, my feeling, again I state feeling, is that corporations are almost forced to put something out that is not properly vetted. Not because of the FDA, but because people hear of a new miracle vaccine and then they beg for. Then claim it’s unethical that the company won’t release the drug.
Then someone gets hurt and it’s all big pharmas fault. And then the cycle of stupid goes in to full retard with litigation and bad press.
“I would only vaccinate against stuff with an important chance of infection if exposed to non vaccinated peoples….”. “Yea, well, I’m not in favor of mandatory…”.
With these statements you have put yourself firmly onto the “antivaxx” spectrum. The provaxx stance is a single, immutable point on the curve requiring complete adherence to the schedule; all vaccines, on time, mercury-containing flu vaccines included (even for children although the rhetoric maintains that mercury has been removed from the childhood schedule – wrong. Children are required to have yearly flu vaccinations with 2 doses the first year. There is mercury in vaccines recommended for pregnant women as well. Look at the vaccine inserts that the doctors won’t show you. You can find them on the net).
The rest of the curve contains everyone else. From parents concerned with overly aggressive schedules, to people who have observed a vaccine reaction and are wary of further damage, to people who don’t think that all of those vaccines are really necessary (a few for the more deadlier infections are OK), to those who don’t want to vaccinate for purely bible thumping ideological reasons. Sorry, you seem to be part of the second group on the provaxx/antivaxx spectrum, not the first.
As to the debunking of mercury’s association with the development of autism:
Altered urinary porphyrins and mercury exposure as biomarkers for autism severity in Egyptian children with autism spectrum disorder.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11011-016-9870-6
A prospective study of mercury toxicity biomarkers in autistic spectrum disorders.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17885929?dopt=Abstract
Then go ahead and Google mercury, aluminum neurotoxicity. Here’s one:
Exposure to Mercury and Aluminum in Early Life: Developmental Vulnerability as a Modifying Factor in Neurologic and Immunologic Effects
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4344667/
“Currently, ethylmercury (EtHg) and adjuvant-Al are the dominating interventional exposures encountered by fetuses, newborns, and infants due to immunization with Thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs). Despite their long use as active agents of medicines and fungicides, the safety levels of these substances have never been determined, either for animals or for adult humans—much less for fetuses, newborns, infants, and children. I reviewed the literature for papers reporting on outcomes associated with (a) multiple exposures and metabolism of EtHg and Al during early life; (b) physiological and metabolic characteristics of newborns, neonates, and infants relevant to xenobiotic exposure and effects; (c) neurobehavioral, immunological, and inflammatory reactions to Thimerosal and Al-adjuvants resulting from TCV exposure in infancy. Immunological and neurobehavioral effects of Thimerosal-EtHg and Al-adjuvants are not extraordinary; rather, these effects are easily detected in high and low income countries, with co-exposure to methylmercury (MeHg) or other neurotoxicants. Rigorous and replicable studies (in different animal species) have shown evidence of EtHg and Al toxicities. More research attention has been given to EtHg and findings have showed a solid link with neurotoxic effects in humans; however, the potential synergic effect of both toxic agents has not been properly studied. Therefore, early life exposure to both EtHg and Al deserves due consideration.”
“…it doesn’t bear on the argument of effectiveness, safety, risk/reward of any particular vaccine.”
Where do you look for your safety/effectiveness information? Lancet?
Dr. Richard Horton, the current editor-in-chief of the Lancet:
http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736%2815%2960696-1.pdf
“The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.”
NEMJ?
Dr. Marcia Angell, past Editor in Chief of the New England Medical Journal:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2009/01/15/drug-companies-doctorsa-story-of-corruption/
“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of the New England Journal of Medicine”
It seems as though the peer review process is not what it once was.
Herd immunity paradigm is a bogus concept in the eyes of the vaccine industry. Vaccinations are routinely recommended for persons with immunosuppression, see the Canadian list here:
http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/publications/healthy-living-vie-saine/3-canadian-immunization-guide-canadien-immunisation/index-eng.php?page=8
Live vaccines are contraindicated in some (but not all cases):
“Inadvertent live vaccine administration and exposure to natural infections can be managed with rapid administration of Ig or pathogen-specific Ig with or without appropriate antiviral or antibacterial treatment.”
What you are not told is that live vaccines can shed resulting in infections in exposed persons, endangering exposed immunocompromised individuals as well. For these people exposure to the vaccine can be as compromising as exposure to the wild type:
Comparison of the Safety, Vaccine Virus Shedding, and Immunogenicity of Influenza Virus Vaccine, Trivalent, Types A and B, Live Cold-Adapted, Administered to Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV)-Infected and Non-HIV-Infected Adults
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/181/2/725.full
There are conflicts of interest and absolutely no liability on the part of the vaccine companies since legislation was passed in the mid 1980’s. (Google that). Unbridled freedom, biased safety testing (the companies and CDC do their own testing); where is that acceptable practice in any industry?
If the current vaccine schedule were really as safe and effective as we are told, why would a significant portion of the population become hesitant?
Why are grocery stores carrying more certified organic food? They know that it is economically viable to do so. People are starting to question conventional farming methods. The GMA refuses to properly label for the presence of pesticides and GMOs, even though they and the Ag Chem companies claim both are extremely safe (sound familiar?). WHO has declared glyphosate to be a probable carcinogen but it is still being sprayed on our food without disclosure. How does this prove that Government/MSMedia have our best interests at heart? Where are the investigative journalists covering that one? They are out there, just not working for the mainstream anymore. They were dismissed, imagine that. “False Media” is full of this information, the mainstream not so much.
We want full disclosure and we aren’t getting it. Not from the GMA, not from the MSMedical industry, and not from our own doctors who don’t even recognize the side effects listed on the vaccine inserts for what they are. Ever read the MMR insert? Side effects include encephalitis and Guillain-Barre among others. Hmmm, sounds like autism symptoms to me.
The MSMedia will not bring the inconsistencies and failures of Pharma to light. Remember Merck’s Vioxx? How many people had to die before it was pulled from the shelves? Sure, there was the cursory mention in the MSMedia but where was the follow-up? A company that blatantly sold a drug that adversely effected and killed so many, effectively using them as guinea pigs, is still manufacturing many of the vaccines on the recommended/mandated schedule. Doctors were paid to prescribe it, the same way doctors are “incentivised” to adhere to the vaccine schedule today. You know Richard, that they are remunerated/incentivised for prescribing and would prefer not to question the gift horse. How is that good in any way? Oh wait, all of a sudden they have become concerned with our health, my mistake.
Ever watch news programming or read news magazines? Who are the advertisers? Not just 1 or 2 – it’s pretty much Every. Single. Advertisement. Hint – It’s not Mickey D’s anymore.
Quit with the confirmation bias. I know you can call bias on my part too, but I was well indoctrinated within the system, a degree in Biology in the 80”s ensured that. I learned all the early info on GMOrganisms and the efficacy of pharmaceutical intervention. I was an avid follower for quite some time – until the day I started to ask questions.
If you have the hutzpah, watch this video and tell me with certainty the resulting gravity-induced freefall was not caused by explosive demolition. I double dog dare you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mamvq7LWqRU
You saw it with your own eyes on the MSMedia. You also took high school physics. “Burning office furniture” (required by code to be fire retardant) my ass.
Or carry on with Eyes Wide Shut, the great US of A Machine will look after you. That’s your prerogative.
“With these statements you have put yourself firmly onto the “antivaxx” spectrum.”
Nice lying try.
I never fall for a lie lede. You’re dismissed.
Others can read the rest of your comment.
I’m not interested. I knew this was coming.
:)
Dear Richard,
Great topic, with tonnes of material for you. I really look forward to the ideas you develop, over time. A thing in your favor, is that you do change your mind when the evidence supports it.
Upfront I have to say, I have no stomach for the Anti-Vaxx people. They all sound CRAZY to me. But… here is the but…. if you watch Dr. Suzanne Humphries, a nephrologist, on what vaccinations have done to her kidney patients, you will see her evidence and her opinion. Why did I watch her? Because my father is on renal dialysis for end stage kidney failure (not his fault, a serious of hospital/medical blunders). What’s the value of her opinion? Kidneys are a very tricky organ, you can’t fake results. The nephrologist is very much “god” in the hierarchy of doctors. Every doctor my Dad has, has to defer to his nephrologist.
Because of being on dialysis, it is recommended that my Dad have the annual flu shot. Last year, after his “happy nurse with a needle while you are strapped down no choice” flu shot…. he suffered with cellulitis. Not nice, but whatever, it’s what is recommended.
This year, it happened again – flu shot, then cellulitis. This time he has had a very difficult time recovering (almost 2 months of suffering). Now he has had some sort of major neurological problem – can’t walk, hands don’t work, and speech is slurred. Stroke? The doctors currently think he has been over-drugged, in an attempt to deal with the cellulitis. My Dad says, “I think I have Parkinson’s”. HUh?? Where did this come from? I have been talking with doctors and nurses all day. I am *not* happy with what is happening to him.
I would love to believe that the people with the needles were all knights/maidens in shining armour…but I am reluctant to do so. You’ll have to look at vaccines – in specific period of time. There is an surprisingly large number of vaccines happening now. Does good research support this?
Sincerely, Natasha
@ Natasha – There has to theoretically be a limit to the number of antigens to which an immune system can respond, which would be dependant upon the functional capacity of that system.
If there was no limit we would never become ill.
Every day we are exposed to significant numbers of infective organisms (beneficial ones as well) which keeps our immune systems very busy. If the immune system is compromised or immature how to know if a presented antigen will be the one that “breaks the camel’s back” and allows other pathogens to proliferate? Sadly only if a negative reaction occurs.
Because immune function is dependant upon a healthy microbiome, eating fermented vegetables or supplementing with probiotics is one way to support the immune system. Multistrain supplements are better. We use one similar to Richard’s Elixa, (same species different strains) but have to take it daily because it lacks colony-forming capacity. I will be investigating Elixa.
Eating organically will reduce the number of antimicrobial pesticides and toxins ingested which may be one cause for the increasing numbers of people with immune dysfunction (autoimmune diseases, cancer etc.) that we see these days.
Sorry about the hard time your Dad is having.
Louise,
You have clearly drunk from the Internet kool aid for too long.
You see, you are playing in a world and medical landscape you have no idea about and your advice is actually both stupid and dangerous.
If Natasha were too listen to your bullshit and implement it, it could actually harm or even kill her father. The reason the nephrologist is a God is because any modifications including dietary changes need to be run by them and could have severe medical consequences. What do you think would happen on your stupid blanket recommendations. Please go and type into Google since you are so fond of it “dietary recommendations for acute or chronic renal disease” and avoid anything non-medical that recommend kidney detoxes, exotic Amazon berries and raw veganism.
I used to argue with people irresponsibly peddling blanket dietary advice they have read on the Internet and regurgitate and have likely struggled to follow themselves (aka like most of the Kool aid drinking supplement taking dietary woo worshipping) dogmatic paleo loonies.
I used to think the stock standard bullshit (eat organic, fermented vegetables and take these supplements to correct what sounds like deficiencies) peddled by the Internet woo brigade was harmless.
Alas it is not.
Your views are neither uniformly applicable, founded in well validated research (aka – ideas about broad unmeasured toxicity) and Necessarily safe.
“sorry about the hard time your dad is having” would have sufficed.
Please just stop advising people about things you have no understanding about, especially without even a disclaimer that you really have no idea.
Paul d
Yup. Pesticides have to be safe. The MSMedia and GMA say so. Have at it.
I am curious what you and your wife think of Donald Trump’s wall – seems to be a pretty ant-liberty thing to do.
If you are talking to me, Louise is a female name. We are Canadian so didn’t have to consider the 2 options carefully, we weren’t voting.
I personally think he will be no different from any of the others. He will toe the line, he is already backing off of some of his more shocking platforms.
When the Barbarians are at the Gates……it can help to have a wall. But walls are literal and figurative. How much does this need to be explained.
@ Paul d – I don’t know how old you are but they used to teach logic and deductive reasoning in school. Now only compliance is taught. No independent thinking is brokered; independent thinking is heresy. Maybe that is part of your problem.
Science in school is taught as a truth when, in fact, it can only be an evolution in theory as we gain new knowledge and understanding. It can never be static.
No matter what the mainstream tells us is the current “truth”.
Science is based on a series of observations from which theory is postulated. This theory remains in place until such time as the number of dissenting observations renders it untenable.
People are coming forward now with observations that do not fit the present one-size-fits-all vaccine paradigm. Observations that are contradictive to the safety and efficacy theories of vaccine science.
New theories are evolving from the old because the old doesn’t satisfy all response criteria. How do you think we made it from the stone age? By unquestioning acceptance of convention as truth?
Is it illogical to think that observations on vaccine response differ now from a time when there were only 8 vaccinations? Do you think observations may change if 100 are mandated?
You are so absolutely and positively sure that everything reported to you by the mainstream is the utter and immutable “Truth” that you will actually forfeit your freedom of choice to the pro-vaccine stance? Because if you watch carefully they are slowly but surely making ALL VACCINATIONS mandatory for everyone. Are you comfortable with that?
Dismissing the alternative (ie the possibility that vaccines may indeed cause adverse reaction) without considered investigation is ignorant. You are simply a sheeple.
“My approach is typical of a voluntariist.”
From
http://voluntaryist.com/
Statement of Purpose: Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society. We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy. Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.
Voluntaryism (UK /ˈvɒləntərɪˌɪzəm/, US /ˈvɒləntɛriˌɪzəm/; sometimes voluntarism /ˈvɒləntəˌrɪzəm/), is a libertarian philosophy which holds that all forms of human association should be voluntary.
Hmmm, voluntaryist….mandated vaccines….voluntaryist……California SB277….. It’s all acceptable because I am a pro-vaxxer….. Wow.
Jesus Louise give it a break. Its clear you are speaking about things you have no idea on, and when called on it you double down.
You are the only one here making logical fallacies, constantly, yet accuse others of not having an education in Logic.
Richard has stated he prefers a voluntaryist approach because thats consistent with his principles. We dont however live in a voluntaryist world, if we did you could voluntarily choose to live with anti vaxxers and we could voluntarily choose to live amongst a vaccinated population.
A voluntaryist approach to the subject of vaccines would be persuasion via evidence, which he has stated. I haven’t even seen the evidence pro anti vaccination, but you have surely turned me off even clicking a link. Very persuasive indeed.
Your approach is to call people sheeple, (ad hom), attack their principles on subjects unrelated (straw man), make statements of fact you cant possibly prove (begging the question and also poisoning the well), give personal and relatively personal anecdotes (hundreds of cases where vaccines could have caused an issue against the billions vaccinated are statistically speaking, personal anecdotes) and calling that a texas sharpshooter fallacy is being generous, all unless of course they see things as you do.
Which do you think will get results? Who needs to be educated on logic again?
Here is my take. If you are too stupid to commit logical fallacies, you are too stupid for an opinion on the matter. Government mandation does not relate to the efficacy of vaccines. California forcing vaccination does not mean vaccination is bad. It might, but its not A = B. Its more likely a growing number of stupid people are drinking the kool aid and their kids are dieing of whooping cough.
Dan, thank you for saving me SO much time.
I read her comment and clicked in, then saw yours and was so relieved.
You even used the sharpshooter fallacy. Elegant.
By the way Dan, the way this begins when I probably begin next week ought to be shocking. It will be shocking. Emotional.
The end will be something I have not seen at all on either side, explicated. To me, the the anti-vax relies not on a logical fallacy but an economic consequence: free rider problem.
The voluntaryist comment triggered me :)
Dan. My heart just grew three suzes this day. You had me at Dunning- Kruger.??
How the government mandat and corporate evil get in the mix, when discussing efficacy, is beyond me. Especially when those taking that position, ivariably ignore the billions of doses of vaccines given to hundreds of millions of Americans, with only a few thousand of cases of harm
Dunning-Kruger indeed.
Thanks. Seems some other commenters are sane here as well. Hopefully together its turned it around and kept on whatever track Richard goes with it.
My hunch is the free rider problem wont convert many a non believer but nonetheless important for you to declare it an angle and no doubt will be an interesting read.
“A voluntaryist approach to the subject of vaccines would be persuasion via evidence, which he has stated. I haven’t even seen the evidence pro anti vaccination, but you have surely turned me off even clicking a link.”
The evidence is not to be found in the MSMedia. The media is being paid off by the Pharmaceutical companies – have you not noticed the number of Pharma ads on the news/magazines. I doubt anyone could convince you to look elsewhere, you are simply using me as an excuse not to.
“Its more likely a growing number of stupid people are drinking the kool aid and their kids are dieing of whooping cough.”
Which kool aid are you speaking of? The stupid people vaccinating their children 5 times and still seeing infection, or the ones not vaccinating?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whooping-cough-outbreak-how-effective-is-the-vaccine/
“During a 5-month period between September 2013 and January 2014, 26 preschoolers, two staff members and 11 family members of the students or staff at the facility in Leon County came down with whooping cough, according to a report of the outbreak published today (Jan. 13) in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases.
Only five of 117 students attending the preschool had not received all of the shots required by their age. This is the first time a “sustained transmission of pertussis in a vaccinated group of 1- to 5-year-old children has been reported in the United States,” the report said.
It was surprising that this outbreak occurred among a highly vaccinated preschool population, said five epidemiologists who are staff members at the Florida Department of Health in Tallahassee—writing to Live Science in a joint email. “This age group is generally thought to beprotected against whooping cough through vaccination,” they said.
The prolonged length of time (five months) over which the cases occurred at the preschool was another surprising aspect of the outbreak, the epidemiological staff said. [5 Dangerous Vaccine Myths].
Vaccination against the disease involves a series of five shots given to young children at 2, 4 and 6 months of age, somewhere between 15 and 18 months, and a fifth dose between 4 and 6 years old. (However, the vaccine’s protection against the disease can wear off as kids get older, so a booster dose of the vaccine is typically given between ages 11 and 18.) Pregnant women also now receive the whooping cough vaccineduring their third trimester to provide protection to infants, the population at highest risk for pertussis complications.
Of the 33 children in the outbreak with pertussis, which included both students and siblings of the preschoolers, 28 of them had received three or more pertussis vaccinations, and 23 had received four or more vaccinations, the investigators found. They also estimated the vaccine effectiveness rate among all the preschool students to be 45 percent.”
As I said, there are questions about efficacy and safety. Nuff said.
“As I said, there are questions about efficacy and safety. Nuff said.”
Sure. So keep it on point and about the efficacy.
Here is another take on the same outbreak.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2016/01/19/florida-pertussis-outbreak-shows-vaccine-works-but-not-well-enough/#2ddbd1571429
“The trade-off for fewer side effects is a vaccine that is less effective, so it is an interesting conundrum,” Schleiss said”
So they change the vaccine to reduce some short term side effects and they know its not as affective.
“Multiple studies in the past decade have revealed how quickly immunity from DTaP wanes compared to the DPT vaccine used until the early 1990s. The older vaccine used the entire pertussis bacterium in its formulation whereas the current one, an “acellular” vaccine, uses only a couple proteins. The DTaP replaced the DPT because the older vaccines’ side effects included risk of fever-induced (febrile) seizures which did not cause long-term damage but were frightening nonetheless.
”
Yeah I am still going to stick with vaccination.
““It seems more likely that the initial vaccination series conferred an immune response that was simply not sufficient to block transmission in the preschool setting,” Schleiss said. That doesn’t mean the vaccine “didn’t work,” though, he added, especially since no deaths occurred — compared to 10 deaths in the 2010 California outbreak — and the course of illness in most individuals was not severe.”
Ha!
Thanks Dan.
This convinces me Loise is to be utterly dismissed. I had her previous comment in my folder to look into some of the links, but I now see those are most likely highly cherry picked links.
So glad I did this prelude. You owe me nothing, Dan, but you are saving me shit tons of time.
Dan – I realize the reason for the formulation change. However, a vaccine with 5 boosters needed to bring it to 45% effectiveness doesn’t sound “efficacious” to me.
Both my son and daughter were vaccinated for chicken pox. My son developed a light case of it a couple of years later (so I now assume he has a good immunity which will be effective until he is past child bearing age). My daughter has not. Does this mean she is immune to the infection or is there a possibility that she may develop it during her childbearing years or during pregnancy?
The CDC schedule for chicken pox vaccination recommends 12-15 months and then at 4-6 years. What if there is exposure to a nursing child before 12 months of age, with no protective antibodies being passed on by the nursing mother because the vaccine antibodies introduced when the mother was 6 are no longer effective?
When I was growing up, these infections were not considered to be deadly. You have heard about the measles/chicken pox etc. parties?
No mother would have exposed her child willingly to something that was other than an inconvenience for a week or so.
Mothers realized that exposure to these viruses was best done early (young school age), and that immunity was long lasting. This saved the male children from possibly developing mumps after maturity and potentially effecting fertility. It saved the female children from possibly developing measles during pregnancy and risking fetal development.
Although the mainstream maintains that the schedule is “safe and effective”, chicken pox, measles and mumps have all been observed to break though in vaccinated populations.
My main concern is that we are not being fully informed.
Louise,
Alas.
I will try again.
Your advice about supplements and fermented vegetables to Natasha was unsolicited, stupid and dangerous. Let’s see whether my assertion may have some merit. Lets do this by picking “sauerkraut”. A fermented vegetable and one of the most well known, and one with widespread use? Sauerkraut is fermented in what, salt? Now what from a dietary perspective is a big concern for renal compromised patients? Salt that cannot be cleared by the kidneys. What might be the consequences of this, high blood pressure, edema and if not treated a possible heart attack.
So of course you “meant” other fermented vegetables to help her fathers immune system? I guess I failed to see that in your recommendations.
You see I do understand science and I work in the field. I also see that there are recommendations in the vaccination schedules not to vaccinate everyone, especially the elderly. The medical field, despite its evil nefarious underlying intentions is aware of the fact that people with a compromised immune system are more at risk of adverse reactions. That then creates a moral issue for me. If I listen to people like you raising alarm bells by lying, exaggerating and presenting information that stops me vaccinating my children and they become infected and in turn infect elderly people then where do we stand in terms of culpability? My kids have kefir everyday, eat vegetables and fruits and also eat beans etc. I suspect I know more about nutrition than you give me credit for given I reversed a chronic liver condition using nutrition alone, under supervision and the support of my evil dr.
My children were vaccinated for chicken pox and they caught it again at school. It was a much milder impact and worked through in 2 days. What may explain that. Is it possible that the vaccination entrained their immune system and this contributed to the short turn around time and mild symptoms.
Alas, unless I am mistaken, the scientific theory behind the effectiveness of vaccinations is hormesis. I am not sure you understand the difference between risk posed from blanket medical recommendations, a theory on which these ideas are based and in turn a paradigm.
The fact that there are well documented downside risks to vaccinations and that observationally there effectiveness is not 100% certain 100% of their time does not bring the principal idea behind vaccinations into dispute. It is also feasible that the extent of these risks are under estimated due to being underreported. Irrespective of this, just because it is not safe 100% of the time for 100% of people does not bear directly on the theory of Hormesis either.
I think you feel very strongly about this topic. I also feel that this may blind you to the dangerous advice and silly pseudoscience and poor logic you engage in.
maybe go back to the echo chamber where your ideas will be received and supported and validated.
Paul d – Thank you for your thoughtful reply, instead of simply dismissing me.
What I would like to understand from you and the others that are attacking me here is where the line is drawn between pro-vax and anti-vax.
My background is similar to yours. I am a biologist, so do understand vaccine theory. My children, husband and myself are fully vaccinated, however my daughter will not be receiving any further shots because I am concerned that her MTHFR deletion and inability to properly methylate may result in more adverse reactions. My husband is required by his job to get a yearly flu vaccine, although the children and I do not. The children and I are certainly exposed to the flu virus during the winter but don’t become sick other than with the odd cold. Our dogs are fully vaccinated as well.
In your opinion, because I have concerns with efficacy (pertussis as well as mumps) and safety (especially of the mercury containing ones recommended for infants and pregnant women), does that make me pro- or anti- vax?
Louise,
I am tapping out.
I find the use of ideas about pro and anti vaccinations and the attempt to shoehorn ideas or people in a discussion into these polarities a very limiting and tedious process. The thinking behind the decision to vaccinate or not can’t be compartmentalised in such a binary fashion for the majority of people who likely vaccinate with some reservations about frequency, efficacy and risk.
In another heated topic, abortion, I am generally against abortion and yet 100% pro choice and these positions happily co-exist inside me.
I don’t ever get a flu vaccine. I do the minimal number required for my children to be compliant with the minimum level advocated by the medical establishment. Beyond that, my thoughts about this topic have only been recently reignited by this blog.
I think that some of Richards early views on nutrition (his early paleo anti-cico stance) and his rationale for his choices were as laughable as some of the logic espoused in these types of discussions on vaccinations. His subsequent revisions are certainly a lot more balanced and measured. In the paleo world he may be seen as a rebel and contrarian, but in the eyes of others who simply started and managed cico (based on robust science), got very lean and stayed lean and got strong and improved health without the fear of certain macro nutrients and fucking glutenz and insulin faeries he has moved away from the precipice of Looney town.
I have formulated a fairly balanced view on this topic of vaccinations overtime and I don’t really care anymore.
I will be interested to see where Richard lands on this.
As for you being attacked, none of this is actually attacking you personally, it is attacking your advice, your ideas or how you share them or argue them.
I also question the value of you continuing to engage in discussions where the major readership to date has indicated they don’t care for your views.
Best of luck, Paul d
Richard, would you consider paying your top commenters? Perhaps even Sean might have stayed longer in comments if he was given a cut of the blog revenue? I often feel my comments are worth some form of payment.
Richard, what about vacination and your dogs? Do you vaccinate annually?
Louise, I understand you want to be kind. However, my father was raised on a farm, he LOVES saurkraut. We’re Ukrainian heritage so his mother made the real thing….fermented. He and I have jumped both feet into microbiome theory. He loves his potato starch. But! That does not reverse the kidney damage he suffered, which was purely the fault of the doctors. The renal diet is very serious. If you had seen anyone in kidney failure, you would not give advice so freely.
The reason my Dad lots the ability to talk, walk, move his hands, and had no idea who he was is because another idiot doctor gave him Gabapentin. It FINALLY cleared his brain today. He has no idea what happened. He thought he was being attacked amd neglected. He was utterly lost and confused. It was a doctor induced week from hell.
N.
Hi Natasha,
I also almost lost a perfectly healthy dog to vaccinations.
It was easy to establish the cause and effect. Healthy dog, attends vet, receives shots, ends up 30 minutes later, eyes glazed over, lying in the backyard non-responsive. She made it through fortunately.
The reason I was quite direct in my previous comments is that when involved in inter web Facebook arguments years ago, it was not uncommon to witness anti-vaccination commenters elicititing stories of tragedy and pain from unsuspecting people to simply shoehorn those peoples experiences into their political agenda and use them to vindicate their point of view.
There are few things I have seen more disturbing than parents whose children have died from suspected reactions to vaccinations or despite being vaccinated dying from things like whooping cough being attacked and blamed by anti vaccination nutjobs for following Drs recommendations and “destroying their kids immune systems”. Equivalently worse are situations where parents with autistic kids are being told they deserve what they get for vaccinating their kids and “try a juice fast, give the little one probiotics” and clear the build up in toxins.
I have witnessed my 86 year old father in law have his kidneys destroyed by drugs later taken off the market. I have also seen his wife, with horrific late stage Parkinson’s whose shaking is soooo violent being able to still sit up and talk due to the miracles of medical intervention.
I sincerely hope that things remain manageable for your father.
Paul d
In another thread I posted a compendium of “thought” fallacies……concluding that it’s somewhat like elementary particle physics. ….ie no end to them as long as funding available to look. It may be that “clear thinking” if such exists, is obviously quite scarce….like hens teeth. Perhaps clear thinking is dangerous to survival since we depend so much on the fallacy laden heuristics?
This is what medicine is really like…..take it from me there is a lot of empirical quality to it. They made fun of Rummy when he said “we don’t know what we don’t know”…….but we do try….and we theorize and attempt to test. But frankly shit happens. You have to be in position fuck up to learn something.
Even I was caught off guard for the Zoster vaccine limits. It was there for anyone to see…..just like the pneumonia vaccine…which morphed into two.
Now the doctors and the patients are losing trust. I’ve been doing this a long time . Compliance is substituted for judgement at way too many levels. THAT’S how docs are starting to be paid…..not because getting freebies or pharma payments. Louise….you are fighting the last war……last war fallacy.
We are hoping that DJT can reverse some of this……but the shit eating grin is on the face of Obama and the horse already out of the barn.
Paul d – thank you for answering my question.
“The thinking behind the decision to vaccinate or not can’t be compartmentalised in such a binary fashion for the majority of people who likely vaccinate with some reservations about frequency, efficacy and risk.”
I completely agree with you here, so why are you shoehorning me into the “anti-vax nutjob” role when I simply have substantiated questions/statements that have yet to be answered.
The reason I began commenting on this blog was that I truly thought that if anyone would give considered, rational, well thought out replies to what I feel to be legitimate concerns it would be Richard, and because he blogged on the topic in the first place, that he would be interested in doing just that. Alas.
Re: several items contained in your previous comment to me:
“The reason the nephrologist is a God is because any modifications including dietary changes need to be run by them and could have severe medical consequences.”
I agree and Natasha realizes this too. She did make that statement in her comment.
I said nothing about “recommend kidney detoxes, exotic Amazon berries and raw veganism.”
“The reason I was quite direct in my previous comments is that when involved in inter web Facebook arguments years ago, it was not uncommon to witness anti-vaccination commenters elicititing stories of tragedy and pain from unsuspecting people to simply shoehorn those peoples experiences into their political agenda and use them to vindicate their point of view.”
If you didn’t notice, our points were the same. Observed vaccine-associated injury, 2x each. Natasha’s father, my daughter.
“There are few things I have seen more disturbing than parents whose children have died from suspected reactions to vaccinations or despite being vaccinated dying from things like whooping cough being attacked and blamed by anti vaccination nutjobs for following Drs recommendations and “destroying their kids immune systems”
Did I in any way attack Natasha for following Dr’s recommendations? The observations were all hers. I was simply theorizing on the reason for the N=2 observations (both hers and mine) for the observed vaccine injuries. The first time may have been a coincidence, but not so much the second.
“If I listen to people like you raising alarm bells by lying, exaggerating and presenting information that stops me vaccinating my children and they become infected”
I am not lying. Mercury and aluminum are neurotoxins. Please think about that. At the rates vaccines are being applied today there would be a significant increase in exposure to these metals and other biological adjuvants in young children.
Vaccines for what used to be run-of-the-mill childhood illnesses are less than effective and do not impart lasting immunity. The results of which will only become obvious as our guinea pig children mature and start reproducing. It is your choice to vaccinate your children, I am not trying to remove your choice.
“That then creates a moral issue for me. If …. they become infected and in turn infect elderly people then where do we stand in terms of culpability?”
You would have a leg to stand on here if vaccines were 100% effective but they are not. I have mentioned several vaccines that are known to break through, influenza is another. Flu vaccine failure is reported by the mainstream almost every winter. Last year the effectiveness was approximated at 40-45% by the CDC (although we are then told to get vaccinated anyway). Even if you are fully vaccinated you still have significant potential to infect susceptible persons. Who is then responsible if you make an immunocompromised person ill because of an ineffective vaccine, especially if you were told the vaccine wasn’t 100 percent effective? It would be your fault because you were informed by the media.
Just stay away from the general public if you are ill or have a fever. That’s the best way to ensure you don’t make others ill.
“My children were vaccinated for chicken pox and they caught it again at school. It was a much milder impact and worked through in 2 days. What may explain that. Is it possible that the vaccination entrained their immune system and this contributed to the short turn around time and mild symptoms”
Definitely possible. But obviously, if the vaccine were as efficacious as we were lead to believe there would be no breakthrough. The vaccine wasn’t presented on the premise that it would decrease severity. How do you tell the difference between a mild “entrained immune response” and a breakthrough? And after how many years does the vaccine stop “entraining” and simply cease to function, leaving the now adult population susceptible to the complications that aren’t present in the younger population?
“You see I do understand science and I work in the field. I also see that there are recommendations in the vaccination schedules not to vaccinate everyone, especially the elderly. The medical field, despite its evil nefarious underlying intentions is aware of the fact that people with a compromised immune system are more at risk of adverse reactions.”
This is a false statement. The medical field uses the “compromised immune reaction” as a reason to produce stronger products. This is not a recommendation for exemption of the immune-compromised, it is for extra antigen.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_fluzone.htm
“This document provides information on the Fluzone High-Dose seasonal influenza vaccine.
What is Fluzone High-Dose influenza vaccine?
Fluzone High-Dose is an influenza vaccine, manufactured by Sanofi Pasteur Inc., designed specifically for people 65 years and older.
Fluzone High-Dose vaccine contains four times the amount of antigen (the part of the vaccine that prompts the body to make antibody) contained in regular flu shots. The additional antigen is intended to create a stronger immune response (more antibody) in the person getting the vaccine.
Why is a higher dose vaccine available for adults 65 and older?
Human immune defenses become weaker with age, which places older people at greater risk of severe illness from influenza. Also, ageing decreases the body’s ability to have a good immune response after getting influenza vaccine. A higher dose of antigen in the vaccine is supposed to give older people a better immune response, and therefore, better protection against flu.
Does the higher dose vaccine produce a better immune response in adults 65 years and older?
Data from clinical trials comparing Fluzone to Fluzone High-Dose among persons aged 65 years or older indicate that a stronger immune response (i.e., higher antibody levels) occurs after vaccination with Fluzone High-Dose. Whether or not the improved immune response leads to greater protection has been the topic on ongoing research.”
The immunocompromised are not given exemptions, they are now being given stronger vaccines. Certainly, these new and stronger vaccines will be effective. Otherwise, why would they be advertised on mainstream radio and TV as a good choice for people over 65?
Thank you for allowing me to comment on your post Richard. It is appreciated.
Louise
well done Louise… nice to see you soldier on against so much opposition….good to get your point of view also on this… too many people here writing what they think Richard wants to hear to get a clap on the back…. great to see someone present an alternate view.
agree. it was odd reading comment after comment in a forum that encourages the spirit of intelligent synthesis, people with densely clouded minds and beliefs, and zero intuition.
It’s a pat on the back, not a clap on the back you moron. Do not mix your metaphors you poopy head. You are dismissed.
Btw Richard, where the fuck have you been man? Walking dogs, flying kites and pounding felines?
I am looking forward to Richard’s development of the herd immunity/free ride theories which, if I am not mistaken, are dependant upon high vaccine efficacy and serotype stability, neither of which is a reality.
http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/junk-science-week-vaccinating-the-herd?__federated=1
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/21/11/pdfs/14-2029.pdf
https://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/11/1388.full
http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/47/4/1208
The premise that all infectious disease can be eradicated by mandating vaccine compliance is illogical.
Sharpshooter fallacy.
Richard’s competence seems to cover just about anything in this world from plastic sandals to moon beams. I’d say the few provocative lines he wrote on the subject of the so called antivaxers (by the way, most of this people are not “anti” anything, they’re just against compulsory vaccination and “for” more transparency and informed decision) do not say much. Those few lines only invite for more comments on his blog. The vaccination topic is so controversial and hot, even Donald Trump made use of it. Everyone has an opinion on it, to protect the babies and old from evil bugs or to protect God’s babies from evil shots. I’d hate to use the expression “dim, but opinionated” for Richard on this one because he is clever. Clever does not equal knowledgeable. Because Richard puts himself on the same level as those who use the Bible as an argument when it comes to vaccines. Zero bibliography on both sides. I do appreciate he did a lot of research on gut health (the reason why I’m here) but to have an opinion on vaccination requires a lot of research. And, you know, it actually frees one from dogma.
Here it is, one more comment for you Richard, cheers!
The only thing that delays me writing up something on this is I find so many of the anti-van stuff too laughable to take seriously. Seems more suitable to the fake moon landing treatment than anything serious.
To be sure, lots of the anti-fat, cholesterol scare stuff was logically just as dumb, but at least it had the aspect of mass crowd acceptance. Most people think Americans really did walk on the moon in 1969 and they also have the mature perspective to understand the huge, imperfect positive effect of vaccination history on civilization at large.
“imperfect positive effect” sounds like a yuge change of tune. So they are not perfectly safe and effective?
No interest in this bait. Show me where I have even implied they are “perfectly safe and effective,”
Peak paleo was reached just before the Paleo War (c). Since then it has been in decline I think. The whole paleo movement was becoming too socialist anyway for me. Best to stick to the Primal. You can buy more Primal nut bars.
Hey Richard, have you thought about producing an artificial intelligence blog bot? It would produce blog output in response to trending memes based on prior exogenous output produced by yourself. About 5-10% of your blog content would be original but the remainder would be produced by the bot. End users would not know the difference. You could even have a random swear function that throws in the odd cunt. No. I have not used paragraphs. I know you hate that. You also hate bromides but I never did chemistry class either. Fuck you. Cunt. You are lucky to have such a good wife. Fuck you again Sir.
Jesus still loves you Richard. Come back and join the flock little lamb.
No posts in two weeks. Wow! Is this your longest hiatus from blog duties ever Mr Nikoley? I am worried. Please update us on your life – current shredded status, keto levels and latest magic food elixir.
Is it possible that Nikoley has been banned from his own blog? Could he have violated his own community standards? I hope not.
Anyone know what happened to Free the Animal, the blog?
On vacation, he’s allowed I think. After all he did just put Trump in the Whitehouse, must need a break.
Maybe he just wants to take a fucking vacation……
Haven’t you ever been burned out a bit?
Poop Monster…..he will never take your bait.
Don’t worry Hap. I know how to phish. If I keep the bait fresh and I conceal the hook well enough I’ll catch Richard any moment now… patience…
Hey Richard, just when are we going to get this fart-inducing pre-biotic you’ve mentioned? I paid big dollars for Elixa and I will pay even more for some riotous fartage. Take my money already man.
Just got an update from Karl. Will be posting soon.
Skatology did the trick. It’s time to make a buck again….great.
Poop Monster…..I do not want to fart….I want to shit , and it not to stink.
@ Sia – “First, it talks about TEN diseases” Yes, 10 diseases but currently 40 vaccines.
120325. In enacting this chapter, but excluding Section 120380, and in enacting Sections 120400, 120405, 120410, and 120415, it is the intent of the Legislature to provide:
(a) A means for the eventual achievement of total immunization of appropriate age groups against the following childhood diseases:
(1) Diphtheria.
(2) Hepatitis B.
(3) Haemophilus influenzae type b.
(4) Measles.
(5) Mumps.
(6) Pertussis (whooping cough).
(7) Poliomyelitis.
(8) Rubella.
(9) Tetanus.
(10) Varicella (chickenpox).
(11) Any other disease deemed appropriate by the department….
(e) The department may specify the immunizing agents that may be utilized and the manner in which immunizations are administered.”
“and there is the subsequent-PBE-exemption language.”
(g) (1) A pupil who, prior to January 1, 2016, submitted a letter or affidavit on file…. stating beliefs opposed to immunization shall be allowed enrollment to any private or public elementary or secondary school, child day care center, day nursery, nursery school, family day care home, or development center within the state until the pupil enrolls in the next grade span.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, “grade span” means each of the following:
(A) Birth to preschool.
(B) Kindergarten and grades 1 to 6, inclusive, including transitional kindergarten.
(C) Grades 7 to 12, inclusive.
The grandfathered PBE’s will useful for a maximum of 5 years.
“So every vaccine?”
Begging your pardon, I should have said the potential for every vaccine – the door is left wide open here to the department’s discretion:
Once again “(11) Any other disease deemed appropriate by the department…”.
“Second, there are medical exemptions and other relevant differences.”
Yes, there are medical exemptions but do you think they will apply to a child who has experienced any previous adverse events which are explained away as “coincidence”.
“Plus you are free to homeschool your little darlings and keep them vaccine-free.”
Middle and lower income classes will not have this choice, even if they wanted to take it. The mandate forces families in these brackets to vaccinate because they can’t afford one unemployed parent to stay at home.
Yeah…you’re cherry-picking.
And don’t be absurd – if you’re smarter than every goverment in the world, every public health agency in the world plus the collective expertise of 99% of toxicologists, immunologists, doctors, medical researchers & scientists, microbiologists, immunologists, etc, then you are smart enough to figure out a way to homeschool.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB277
If by cherry-picking you mean that I am concentrating on issues that I feel are being improperly addressed by the institutions who are responsible for properly informing us. Yes, I am doing just that.
I look forward to the finalized post. Will you be including any evidence on how the current regimen of injected vaccinations affects an infants’ underdeveloped microbiome?
Put us out of our misery Richard. How long until your next post? Christmas?
“Always held to a standard of absolute prestine precision, and a minuscule error crashes the whole damn thing.”
Damn right if there is potential for the errors to adversely affect the wellbeing of my children.
And especially if the errors are concealed behind a media propagated veil of “safety and efficacy”.
Louise, what evidence would convince you that you are wrong ?
Pick any of your “arguments” and tell us what would convince you otherwise.
So far not one of you has given any evidence to refute any of the references I have posted in my comments, and unfortunately for you I have seen the damage done to one of my children, despite being told (first) it was impossible and then (second) that it was merely coincidence, so it will take a fair bit of persuading on your part.
It will take more than the 4 references given by Richard in his second response to me – several not from this decade and a couple more not from this century.
You have no idea how I would love to go back to the good old days when I believed everything regurgitated by the media and by our doctors – the good old days when I didn’t have to think for myself; when I was confident that I was being looked after by the best and brightest.
Our PCP was at one time the President of the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons. Doesn’t get much better than that, does it?
His recommendation on our daughter’s ADHD and Tourette’s was to give her Ritalin, Klonipin and a good spanking. He didn’t even frickin’ recognize her light/sound/touch sensitivity, headaches, neck stiffness and headaches as encephalopathy caused by a chronic bartonella infection. Despite the fact that I presented him with tests run in the US saying that she was infected.
Go ahead. Convince me otherwise. That’s the reason I posted here in the first place, because I thought Richard would at least hash this through with me.
Go ahead. I am one tough mother.
“Damn right if there is potential for the errors to adversely affect the wellbeing of my children.
And especially if the errors are concealed behind a media propagated veil of “safety and efficacy”.”
~~~~
And this demonstrates why I have utterly lost all interest in the “debate” as I dug through the thing in many places online.
It’s religion and creationism-like all over again. Most if not all of the same rhetorical devices and sophistry.
So, no, not going to do a post, though I’ll probably do one on why I’m not doing one.
Sophistry – the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
My arguments are not meant to deceive but to bring awareness.
Fallacious – erroneous, false, untrue, wrong, incorrect, flawed, inaccurate, mistaken, misinformed, misguided
My arguments are backed by links to current research.
Rhetorical Device – a rhetorical device or resource of language is a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or provoke a rational argument…
Yes, I am certainly trying to persuade you to consider the topic from a different perspective than what is being reported by the government and the mainstream media. I was hoping for rational argument.
Just because a theory is accepted as truth at one point in history doesn’t necessarily mean that it is infallible.
Louise:
You are wasting your time.
I have looked into it enough over the past couple of weeks to lose all interest. It’s like debating creationists and Intelligent design folks.
You get to conclude what you wish, but these is nothing about this issue that is worth any more time.
So just go take a homeopathic tincture. That should help.
What would it take to change your mind on any of your arguments put forward?
Dan- How about you just prove that health outcomes are better under the current recommended vaccination schedule? Louise’s N=1 has proven otherwise. Why does she carry the burden?
I want evidence that the references I have posted are false, not just statements like “Dunning-Kruger”, “Sharp shooter fallacy”, that “you are too stupid for an opinion on the matter.”
That you refute with current references:
That aluminum and mercury are neurotoxins,
That vaccines are not sufficiently efficacious to produce “herd immunity” comparable to natural herd immunity,
That vaccines are not safe when they were declared by the US Supreme court in 2011 as being unavoidably unsafe:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf
“The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (NCVIA or Act) created a no-fault compensation program to stabilize a vaccine market adversely affected by an increase in vaccine-related tort litigation and to facilitate compensation to claimants who found pursuing legitimate vaccine-inflicted injuries too costly and difficult. The Act provides that a party alleging a vaccine-related injury may file a petition for compensation in the Court of Federal Claims, naming the Health and Human Services Secretary as the respondent; that the court must resolve the case by a specified deadline; and that the claimant can then decide whether to accept the court’s judgment or reject it and seek tort relief from the vaccine manufacturer. Awards are paid out of a fund created by an excise tax on each vaccine dose. As a quid pro quo, manufacturers enjoy significant tort-liability protections. Most importantly, the Act eliminates manufacturer liability for a vaccine’s unavoidable, adverse side effects.”,
That in the case of SB277 the Nuremberg Code may not be intentionally disregarded
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code
“The ten points of the Nuremberg Code:
1.Required is the voluntary, well-informed, understanding consent of the human subject in a full legal capacity.
2.The experiment should aim at positive results for society that cannot be procured in some other way.
3.It should be based on previous knowledge (like, an expectation derived from animal experiments) that justifies the experiment.
4.The experiment should be set up in a way that avoids unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injuries.
5.It should not be conducted when there is any reason to believe that it implies a risk of death or disabling injury.
6.The risks of the experiment should be in proportion to (that is, not exceed) the expected humanitarian benefits.
7.Preparations and facilities must be provided that adequately protect the subjects against the experiment’s risks.
8.The staff who conduct or take part in the experiment must be fully trained and scientifically qualified.
9.The human subjects must be free to immediately quit the experiment at any point when they feel physically or mentally unable to go on.
10.Likewise, the medical staff must stop the experiment at any point when they observe that continuation would be dangerous.
And then I would like you to explain to me why I should potentially sacrifice my daughter for the “safety of the herd”.
The consent portion of the UNESCO Universal Declaration on Bioethics:
In this case “Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention” would refer to vaccination:
http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=31058&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
Article 6 – Consent
1. Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention is only to be carried out with the prior, free and informed consent of the person concerned, based on adequate information. The consent should, where appropriate, be express and may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without disadvantage or prejudice.
2. Scientific research should only be carried out with the prior, free, express and informed consent of the person concerned. The information should be adequate, provided in a comprehensible form and should include modalities for withdrawal of consent. Consent may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without any disadvantage or prejudice. Exceptions to this principle should be made only in accordance with ethical and legal standards adopted by States, consistent with the principles and provisions set out in this Declaration, in particular in Article 27, and international human rights law.
3. In appropriate cases of research carried out on a group of persons or a community, additional agreement of the legal representatives of the group or community concerned may be sought. In no case should a collective community agreement or the consent of a community leader or other authority substitute for an individual’s informed consent.
Richard, I preferred it when you were banned from Facebook. At least you tended your blog during that time. I cannot believe the recent lack of posts. Oh, well. My loss. I bought all your stuff – Elixa, book and plenty of Amazon gear.
As a measure of my loyalty I would like to point out my guess that you have netted around $20 from me in the past decade or so. That’s averaging nearly $2 a year! Enough for half a gallon of gas or a coke every year. You owe me nothing more than you have already given though. I feel like it has been a fair exchange.
You’re brave to tackle this one. I shouldn’t be commenting as I am too fragile a soul to even handle the possibility of a reply from Mr. FTA himself…. Can only say that I really enjoyed Suzanne Humphries book “Dissolving Illusions” re vaccine history and also her youtube videos.
I selectively vaccinate my 18 month old..following a modified/delayed schedule and drawing titers to see if she is actually acquiring immunity. Strongly resist compulsory vaccination for all.
Maddie R – Good for you for researching and making informed, considered decisions for yourself and for your child. I wish that everyone had this option.
Responding to Richard and the others actually hasn’t been too hard; you simply need to get past the inane personal insults and present factual evidence.
Louise is winning this argument. It’s been pretty funny to follow.
What argument?
I’ve just told you, I am not intersted. She gets to quote her Bible verses and books authored by her fringe quacks all she likes (Including “homeopathy” quackery I’ve seen littered throughout).
Never argue with true believers.
Richard, you haven’t read one of my comments.
Please show me where there is any mention of homeopathy; just one will do.
It keeps popping up in various sources, as I’ve tried to cover the gamut in order to get a general sense of where the whole thing is rooted.
Lots of Usual Suspects.
Anyway, my newest post gives my final thoughts on the whole matter. Short version: I was not impressed.
And if you want to bring up Article 27 of the UNESCO Declaration:
“Article 27 – Limitations on the application of the principles
If the application of the principles of this Declaration is to be limited, it should be by law, including laws in the interests of public safety, for the investigation, detection and prosecution of criminal offences, for the protection of public health or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. Any such law needs to be consistent with international human rights law.”
SB277 is obviously enacting this article “in the interests of public health/safety” by claiming that infections that were once considered normal illnesses of childhood are now a threat to public health, with absolutely no disclosure on the neurotoxic ingredients contained in the intervention or, because of it’s inefficacy, it’s inability to maintain immunity within the herd. So much for the “Any such law needs to be consistent with international human rights law” clause.
I’d like to know what Karl has to say about combination probiotic and bacteriophage therapy on intestinal dysbiosis.
Since we’re making wish lists, I would like to see Richard do another blog post but I don’t think that will happen this year.
Since we are discussing anecdotal fallacies (bark beetles????) my N = 1 experience from 8 years ago is our 12 month old son received 7 vaccinations and within hrs developed 106 degree fever for 6 days. He didn’t eat. Non stop vomiting (heartburn?) Acidic diarhea that last YEARS that burned his back and ass cheeks. (but no ingrown toenail, Richard). And he also stopped talking for 10 months. He had previously babbled more than 20 words. ALL of this was deemed a coincidence by the medical establishment and he was just being “stubborn” with his language. At SOME point we stopped listening to those bastards who claimed it was “just a coincidence” and “there’s nothing you can do about brain encephalopathy” and starting looking for answers outside of that medical paradigm. Turns out diet and probiotics DO help despite being told they are useless. Turns out a few WAPF conferences later we realized a shit pile of people hold exactly similar “coincidences”. We removed gluten. Improvements. We removed Soy. Imrovements. We removed Dairy. Improvements. We removed all shit ingredients and went specific carbohydrate diet. More improvements. Fish Oil? Our n =4 was Meh. Same thing for potato starch and elixa. MEH. Does that mean it’s snake oil??? Of course not. It means N = 1 matters. So it’s surprising to hear you (mostly) dismiss N = 1 with vaccination reactions and lump them into up DoG worshipers and bible bangers who would never be pro-vaccination enough to start with considering 7 doses in one day. After years of following your blog , (along with Chris Kresser, Robb Wolf, Chris Masterjohn, Dr. Kurt Harris, etc) I really do believe it comes down to simply listen to your N =1, eat real food, avoid shit ingredients, look for nutrition. The SAME thing should apply for developing an infant’s immune system. There’s no asterisk. Eat real food*. *Except if you want to influence the immune system during development.,…in which case you should consider injecting multiple doses of simultaneous adjuvants (ever heard of synergism, folks??) like aluminum phosphate, aluminum potassium sulfate, bovine extract, formaldehyde, FD & C Yellow #6 MSG, benzethonium chloride, thimerosol, etc. I don’t pretend to know why they use the ingredients they do in vaccine development but I also don’t understand the smorgasbord of ingredients in pop tarts or other “food” as being necessary. At SOME point the shit might catch up to you and probably depends on your MTHRF gene status. Risks and benefits to it all. PS. You are a pussy for showing regret in not voting. How many fallacies can you count?
no one is dismissing the n=1’s jim ffs. Your kid had acidic diarrhea that burned the poor kid. No one with a soul would dismiss that as irrelevant.
What is dismissed is the conclusions drawn by ALWAYS emotive parents.
You list a bunch of chemicals supposedly in them and admit you have no idea what they are or why they are in there.
You or others list other accusations, MSM, profit motives, hidden agendas.
You draw conclusions that are dismiss worthy. (we don’t know.) Worse when you focus in on what you think it is the problem you are probably shutting the possibility of there actually being a problem discovered. Maybe vaccinations in conjunction with X, Y and Z (such as the gene you referenced) could be problematic. But we dont know, because MOAR ALUMINIUM AND FORMALDEHYDE RA RARA….. (both of these are in breast milk btw)
You try and shift the burden of proof.
You commit multiple logical fallacies.
Your N=1 matters to you. Taken in the wider context of what is probably a few million jabs a day across the planet, its insignificant.
Taken in the context of what diseases we no longer have problems with ill personally risk the statistically insignificant chance my kid could get sick from vaccinations to have them receive the benefits of said vaccination.
To prove to a pro vax your claims we would need more than n=1’s. But its provable still.
How about a wikileaks style MASS email leak of the so called hidden agendas and MSM collusion?
How about a statistically significant dataset of people sick from them (10% would make me not take them, 1% ill take a deeper look. .000000001 nah)
Achievable. But not while all critical thinking goes out the window. Until then, sorry to hear about your kid. The only thing I know for sure is sick kids make parents lose their minds.
Jim – These people have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that they are unable to consider an alternate paradigm – that media/government HAVE been bought by the pharmaceutical industry. It would be too uncomfortable for them to even contemplate, so they hide their heads in the sand, behind a theory that was, at one time, actually viable but which is now crumbling because of inefficacy and the large doses of toxins and immune-dysregulating adjuvants being administered.
Most of us come from pro-vaccine positions, but are no longer. Unfortunately, vaccine injury is often what it takes to wake people up to the actualities.
As mandated compliance increases (and while doctors remain ignorant of aluminum/mercury poisoning symptoms and the consequences of the fairly common MTHFR deletions) more injury will surface until finally there will be no possibility of the media hiding it.
Sooner or later, the truth will out.
Dan – I am awaiting your responses refuting:
That aluminum and mercury are neurotoxins,
That vaccines are not sufficiently efficacious to produce “herd immunity” comparable to natural herd immunity,
That vaccines are not safe when they were declared by the US Supreme court in 2011 as being unavoidably so.
“That aluminum and mercury are neurotoxins,”
if true, so? Has everyone been poisoned by these? Billions? You know what else is a neurotoxin? Your comments.
“That vaccines are not sufficiently efficacious to produce “herd immunity” comparable to natural herd immunity,”
Fucking hell. You actually think this is an argument? Do you think your kids are going to go about life being in herds that have natural immunities you can rely on your whole fucking life?
Travel to some foreign country where something like yellow fever or typhoid is present and outbreaks regular and just rely on natural herd immunity. I dont want to rely on natural herd immunity, even if its better than vaccinations, i like to increase my odds. Like the whooping cough bullshit you tried to put up there, that actually showed how the outbreak was contained, and the vaccinated ones got over it in days instead of months. You Liar.
“That vaccines are not safe when they were declared by the US Supreme court in 2011 as being unavoidably so.”
Why the fuck would I give a shit about what the US supreme court says, or any other “authority” says, about anything ever? You are literally asking me to “refute” a logical fallacy. You just put up a(nother) logical fallacy as evidence – THAT DUMB!!
So, go fuck yourself and then read a proper book to your hopefully on the mend kids and refrain from spreading your evil to others.
Been fun
My goodness Louise.
I can see the evil lies and dark intentions in the link attached. Big pharma and its propaganda machine at its worst right here below.
http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook10-home~handbook10-tools~handbook10-appendices~handbook10-appendix4
How about this below?
It proves your points again. Dam big pharma lying here about the competition and the better alternative ….. probiotics.
I can truly see the evil you are up against.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-12-infant-dies-health-urge-caution
Paul d
Richard – do you really believe that this statement:
“When you dig, these people are really fucking evil. Astoundingly so. And where innocent, they’re so ignorant that they ought be publicly stripped of all credibility.”
applies to the parents, children and individuals who have posted their observed N=1 vaccine damage in your blog comments? Excepting myself of course because I am very obviously an idiot.
There are many, many more of us out there, but the Merck manual (the most obvious place to get information on vaccines) won’t let you in on that little secret.
Have you looked at the mortality rates for the various diseases before and after vaccines? I am 3/4 through a fascinating book called “Dissolving Illusions”. What really struck me was that it was partly written by a nephrologist (as per someone in the comment section the “god” of doctors).
It tracks the mortality rates in England and Wales and US from around 1800s onwards. It clearly shows that as people stopped living knee-deep in their own waste, got some fresh air and actual nutrients in their food (and as working conditions improved) that the mortality rates dropped. Vaccines did not make much of a difference in that drop (especially if you take into account the uptake rate of vaccines).
For me, it comes down to risk-reward. If there is a serious risk of dying from the disease, then the smaller risk of side-effects are worth it. Looking at the mortality graphs (not logarithmic graphs, but just mortality per 100 000 or whatever), one can clearly see that there exist no serious risk of dying, provided you are not immunocompromised in such a way that any disease you get will have serious consequences anyway. Yes, malnourished people have a great risk of dying, but generally healthy people not.
The argument always go – we stopped Smallpox and Polio, therefore vaccines are effective. When you look at the mortality graphs it can clearly be seen that that is not the case.
When the risk of dying becomes inconsequential, then the risk of side-effects weigh more.
The infant mortality rates in the US are actually getting worse and especially relatively to other countries. We are currently 26th ish despite giving the most vaccinations.
Jim, I meant mortality rates of the specific diseases that we vaccinate for. The US has a whole lot of other crap going on that will probably raise the infant mortality rate.
“When the risk of dying becomes inconsequential, then the risk of side-effects weigh more.”
Beautiful! This makes perfect sense.
I would really love to understand why media is trying to convince us that chickenpox, measles and mumps are all deadly infections.
“Have you looked at the mortality rates…?”
Why in the hell would I do that when the point of vaccination is disease incidence? This is the sleight of hand the dishonest Anti-Vax folks use, because it automatically incorporates things like knowledge of how diseases spread, better and earlier diagnoses, more effective treatments, etc., in a wholly dishonest effort to make it appear that the vaccines were not necessary.
https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c#.jhtiil68g
…Yea, I looked into the person who wrote that book, went to her website. Stopped reading at the word “homeopathic.” I may have continued on had she termed it placebo effect…..
Lizelle,
Nice one.
I said that a nephrologist is god when it comes to who a multi-disciplinary team defer to with kidney disease.
For arguments about vaccinations, massive LOL.
If I really wanted to go end to end on this issue, I would not be reading books by a DR unless they specialised in the narrow area and had a long track record of peer reviewed public research.
My dr offered to prescribe a diet to put me in ketosis. I told him how awesome it was that he was looking beyond standard treatments.
I have very strong opinions against high fat diets, and would not adopt one unless it was for a specific purpose.
Drs in their specialist area are by far the best thing we have available as an initial point of call. Drs playing and writing outside their area of expertise, not so unless they have proven that a huge amount of time and diligence was put into that area.
Peer reviewed publications is a good initial sign.
The thing that I find absolutely fascinating about vaccines is just how big a blindspot we have about it.
I would never buy anything at a store anymore without reading the ingredients. I will not drink medicine without reading through the whole of the pamphlet provided.
I am pretty sure most people on here are the same.
Yet, I would be surprised if any of us/them have ever read through the actual ingredients in vaccines.
Most people on this page do not believe government when it tells you that it is perfectly fine to have gluten and iron in lots of food that we eat. Yet we happily believe government when they tell us vaccines are safe. We learn to read between the lines in studies that mainstream media publishes about meat and dairy and fats, yet we never quite get past the headline in anti-vaxx stories.
I believe statins are an absolute disaster on your health, and since I’ve convinced my dad to stop taking his many of his general ailments have disappeared. I believe that if I ask 100 doctors what they think about statins, 90 would tell me it is great. I also believe that if I ask them what statins actually do in your body, most would not know. I believe that you cannot trust your doctor to be up to date on research. Yet we all trust our drs to be up to date on research on vaccines.
Some of us believe that man-made climate change is complete bollox (in the sense that it is really bad and we have to do something about it, not in the sense that the climate on earth is always changing). We can see that major government agencies are either complicit or ignorant. Data is easy to manipulate any way you want. We also know that scientists that do anti-climate change research mostly do it when they are retired, since it is almost impossible to get funding when you are associated with a university. It is also almost impossible to publish a negative study in any of the reputable science journals. Yet again, we happily accept that a different government agency cannot possibly be wrong/hiding info on vaccines. We also question the fact that there are not many more anti-vaxx studies in reputable science journals.
Not that any of these examples mean that vaccines are wrong and the government are hiding things. It is the ease with which we accept it that I find interesting.
I am not saying that vaccines are bad or wrong. Personally, from the research I have done, I have come to the conclusion that vaccines are unnecessary for most of the things that we vaccinate for, but since my kids are all done with their vaccines anyway, it is an academic point. I don’t use the flu vaccine since my kids don’t get flu 90% of the time, and when they do it is mild.
Richard- How many other pseudonyms, besides “Dan”, do you utilize?
Paul d – The Australian Immunization Handbook is propaganda literature with truths and half truths meant to be consoling to those parents who now find themselves living in a country with mandated vaccines, preferentially impacting families who are not financially capable of opting out. “…parent’s eligibility to receive government family assistance payments including Family Tax Benefit Part A supplement, Child Care Benefit and Child Care Rebate is linked to their child’s immunisation status…”.
From the top of the page (my comments in parentheses):
“How does vaccination work?
When a healthy person becomes infected with a virus or bacteria (also known as a pathogen), for example, the measles virus, the body recognises the virus as an invader, produces antibodies that eventually destroy the virus, and recovery occurs. If contact with the measles virus occurs again in the future, the body’s immune system ‘remembers’ the measles virus and produces an increase in antibodies to destroy this pathogen.”
(This is indeed the case and is an integral part of vaccine theory).
“Vaccination is the process that is used to stimulate the body’s immune system in the same way as the real pathogen or disease would”,
(true)
“but without causing the symptoms of the disease”
(this is not always the case)
“Most vaccines provide the body with ‘memory’ so that an individual does not get the disease if exposed to it”
(In theory this should be the result, but there is no mention as to how long this ‘memory’ will last. Readers are left to assume that vaccines will operate by boosting ‘memory’ in the same way and with the same efficacy that the above mentioned infection does, which is not the case)
“Vaccination conveys immunity to diseases by a process called active immunity…”
(When you are told that something “conveys immunity”, most would then assume that after the treatment they would be immune to whatever it was they were treated for. This is not the case for many vaccines for which there is breakthrough and declining immunity after only a short period).
When should preterm infants be vaccinated?
“Babies born at <32 weeks gestation or <2000 g birth weight should receive their 1st dose of hepatitis B vaccine either at birth (within the first few days of life) or at 2 months of age. The routine 2-month vaccines containing the antigens diphtheria-tetanus-acellular pertussis-hepatitis B-inactivated poliovirus-Haemophilus influenzae type b (DTPa-hepB-IPV-Hib), Streptococcus pneumoniae (13vPCV) and rotavirus should be given 2 months after birth as normal, unless an infant is very unwell. ‘Very unwell’ can be interpreted in many ways, but, in general, reflects that the premature neonate is particularly medically unstable."
This brings me to your second article which talks about the death of a premature baby who was supplemented with mold-contaminated probiotics. Who in their right minds would supplement or inject a premature infant with an obviously under-developed immune response WITH ANYTHING? Especially anything that was contaminated – say with mold, aluminum, mercury etc.
But Louise,
Your alternative argument on boosting the immune system is the use of probiotics.
Did you not suggest this to Natasha?
As you can see in that article, Probiotics are unregulated, don’t work and kill people. This is your argument against vaccinations. Can’t have it both ways. Why the exception for probiotics?
So in the PDF link I provided, it states mercury has been removed from vaccines due to reservations about toxicity which is DOSE specific and, the number of vaccines has been reduced over time despite the frequency increasing. The safety trials and monitoring mentioned were omitted by you.
Please show me anywhere in the world where organic food and probiotics are regulated. Both of these things kill people and are dangerous. Not only can your recommendations kill people but the people supplying these dangerous things are marking their own homework.
I cannot argue or discuss an issue with someone who lies outright by deliberate omission.
I am afraid that your bizarre views of lies, coverups, evil agendas etc sit firmly inside your mind because you are projecting your own behaviours (as evidenced above) onto society and attacking it.
Paul D
Dan – “That aluminum and mercury are neurotoxins,”
if true, so? Has everyone been poisoned by these? Billions?
Yes, billions of people have been exposed to these metals, but not a doses that cause neurotoxicity. These metals were contained in the vaccines we had as children, but we only had 8. Now children are vaccinated with 68, with a significant number before 5.
“Travel to some foreign country where something like yellow fever or typhoid is present and outbreaks regular and just rely on natural herd immunity. I dont want to rely on natural herd immunity, even if its better than vaccinations, i like to increase my odds.”
If you live in a country where yellow fever or typhoid are not endemic, yes, you would be wise to increase your odds with vaccination if you visit a place that is.
But I’m not talking about yellow fever, typhoid, ebola etc. I am talking about hep B given to day old children with no chance of exposure, I’m talking about measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox which at one time were common illnesses of childhood. Illnesses that were endemic in NA at one time, providing immunity through childbearing years to all who where exposed, and a natural booster to the immunities of the parents and grandparents who were exposed to the sick children.
“Why the fuck would I give a shit about what the US supreme court says, or any other “authority” says, about anything ever?”
I don’t know, why would you? I personally don’t believe anything I am told by the mainstream any more, and certainly not by the “authority” of the Pharmaceutical Industry.
If you want to vaccinate yourself and your children I am all for your option to do so. Certainly do what you think is best for your kids, as I will do what I feel is best for mine.
Louise,
Let’s deconstruct your little rant above and then ask you to prove your argument.
Let’s do some simple scientific analysis.
Define the minimal amount in terms of dosage that causes mercury to become a neurotoxin.
Please do that by using < 5 years of age as you have quoted above.
Please then provide evidence that the increased frequency in vaccinations has led to increased exposure to mercury.
Please then provide evidence that this accumulated dosage now exceeds the minimal amount benchmarked for neurotoxicity above. If it makes it easy, select the very extreme minimum dosage accepted by any group.
Please then provide clear evidence of samples of children with this poisoning from vaccines.
I do of course expect you to provide evidence of neurotoxin based mercury poisoning, and not broad reaction that do not display the traits of mercury poisoning.
Thanks Paul
Louise be sure to provide this analysis for ethyl mercury
“Mercury – Probably no chemical gets more press from anti-vaccine nuts than mercury, and the funny thing is, vaccines don’t really contain mercury, they contain thimerosal, which is a mercury-containing preservative. Now, you may say, “wait a minute, if vaccines contain thimerosal, and thimerosal contains mercury, than vaccines contain mercury.” Technically you are correct, but apparently you didn’t pay attention in chemistry class. You see, how chemicals behave depends on what other chemicals they are bound to. The highly toxic mercury is methyl mercury. Thimerosal is ethyl mercury, which is not toxic unless its in extremely high doses. You may think that mercury is mercury and I’m just playing semantic games, but as I will demonstrate, you’re dead wrong.
“Let me use an illustration to try to demonstrate that chemicals properties change when they are bound to different substances. Sodium and chlorine are both highly toxic. If you were to sprinkle either one across your food on a regular basis, you would be in big trouble. Yet when they are combined into sodium chloride, we get table salt (sea salt is also mostly sodium chloride), which is totally safe unless eaten in excess. You don’t get the symptoms of chlorine poisoning from salt, even though salt is a chlorine-containing preservative. Even so, you don’t get the symptoms of mercury poisoning from thimerosal even though thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative. This is high school chemistry. Finally, as of 2001, technological advances had provided alternatives to thimerosal that don’t contain any mercury of any kind. So to both appease the public and err on the side of caution (there is no evidence that the amount of thimerosal in vaccines was toxic), thimerosal was removed from all vaccines except a few forms of flu shot. So really this whole section was a waste because almost all modern vaccines contain no mercury of any form, yet this is the number 1 chemical that the anti-vaccine crowd cites as being harmful. Once again, they are clearly not fact checking their memes and blogs.”
https://thelogicofscience.com/2015/02/01/15-common-anti-vaccine-arguments-and-why-they-are-a-load-of-crap/
As I suspected Dan And Richard, and as I highlighted above Mercury has been removed, vaccination frequency has increased but the amount of vaccinations decreased.
I suspected that when I asked for some simple proof of the mercury neurotoxin fear mongering that Louise has been perpetuating we would see nothing that addressed this.
In b4, “if it was so non toxic why would those evil bastards that have been lying to us all this time remove it.”
louise please prove your statement that the neurotoxin mercury in the current levels in vaccines (0) are causing these reactions.
Louise,
I will some up your appraco to science.
Have a daughter badly injured by vaccines.
Become enraged for trusting your drs to do no harm.
Become driven by that emotion to find vindication for yours and your daughters suffering.
Find “proof” for your views in rare probabilistic outcomes.
Argue that your rare probabilistic outcomes are far greater than they actually are.
Explain all countrtfactuals as lies, distortions, and the rest of us being steeple.
Keep going despite proving to everyone that is less emotionally involved that you keep recycling this madness to an audience that sees it for what it is, and remain stunned, indignant, and feel persecuted personally because we see it for exactly what it is.
Lol
Paul d
BECAUSE billions of people have zero problems with vaccines and thousands of people do, there must be another explanation:
http://www.elixa-probiotic.com/elixa-gut-health-video-series-episode-1/?ap_id=rnikoley
Paul d – you really think that a properly functioning gut microbiome is not necessary for immune function? Best of luck to you!
“Probiotics are unregulated, don’t work and kill people. This is your argument against vaccinations. Can’t have it both ways. Why the exception for probiotics?”
My argument against vaccination for what used to be common illnesses of childhood is that they are introducing unnecessary neurotoxins. These viruses are not deadly in developed countries with proper nutrition and are entirely unnecessary (except in that they allow Pharma to make the statement that the incidence of these illnesses can be significantly decreased – but to what end?). Of course you can’t generalize that to parents who feed their children on French fries and Coke. Vit A is necessary for viral clearance and likely the reason our parents/grandparents dosed us with CLO.
The immune response to vaccines is not long lasting and will eventually fail if frequent boosters are not given over the lifespan of an individual exposing them to even more toxic adjuvants.
Although the immune response to natural infections is longer lasting, boosting is still necessary (and was once gotten through contact with school age children who had the infections). This is the reason why the shingles vaccine is now necessary. Older people are no longer exposed to wild-type chicken-pox and as immunity wanes the virus becomes active increasing the number of shingles cases.
By vaccinating children for these less than deadly infections (I’m not talking ebola here) we are now being forced to use multiple boosters if we don’t want the older population to succumb. A wonderful snowball effect which makes even more money for Merck, all on the back of an infection that wasn’t deadly in the first place.
Mercury has been removed from most childhood vaccinations (where aluminum remains as the adjuvant), but not from the flu vaccine which is recommended for young children (6 months of age with 2 vaccinations in the first year) and now recently pregnant women. How can this be good when response efficacy is only 45%?
“Please show me anywhere in the world where organic food and probiotics are regulated. Both of these things kill people and are dangerous”.
Can’t. Go ahead and stuff your face with glyphosate and 2,4-D. See how that goes for you (and your gut microbiome).
The organic farmer I buy from doesn’t use the above mentioned pesticides, and neither does she introduce additional mercury or aluminum.
“These viruses are not deadly in developed countries with proper nutrition and are entirely unnecessary”
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/
I agree, california is not a developed country but still…
Dan,
Worst come back ever…
Louise,
Lol.
In my observation, based on your posts here you seem to be for the use of probiotics and organic food.
Please prove to me the efficacy of organic food and probiotics in innoculating people from disease.
Please also prove the relationship between probiotic usage and change in any disease incidence anywhere in the world.
One simple example will do.
I give rare examples of deaths from probiotics and I request that you apply the same logic and evaluation criterion you demand for vaccines (100% effective and 100% safe for eternity) what do you do?
You assume immunity is mediated by a healthy gut flora and in turn this can be influenced by probiotics.
Where is the same rigour applied to your arguments?
Paul d.
See this is the same blanket crap peddled by the organic probiotic anti vaccine crowd that gets under my skin.
I am not opposed to eating well (in the convoluted world of nutrition) who really has this sussed and supplementing with probiotics etc.
Nor am I averse to sunlight, macro experimentation and exercise.
I just get fed up with the miraculous properties ascribed to this crap. The illusion of the perfect naturally designed body that with removal of “toxins” adoption of untested eating approaches and supplements that nothing else is needed.
Nutrition has a role in health, and the bodies natural immunity is foundational.
To assume you can radically shift both of these to the point you become impervious to disease is absurd.
I am really out this time.
Louise, the only thing you have convinced me of is the immense pain you carry due to the injuries sustained by your data.
I too could document the immense suffering I endured before 5 from multiple sources, and also the immense dissatisfaction I have had with conventional approaches offered to assist with my daughters challenges.
Paul d
Out for good
Sorry I meant your “daughter”
One might presume that the indigenous north and south American natives had pretty decent guts, lots of natural prebiotics and soil probiotics upon the arrival of Europeans.
They got wiped out.
Jesus fucking Christ, the willingness of people to grab their homeopathic (metaphorical) Bibles because doG. I loath idiots.
I LAF when ignorants talk about pre and pro biotics as some measure against viral and bacterial pathogens.
Read this, for an example of what north and south Americans were very likely like in terms of ability to handle natural toxins commonly found in nature and in foods, particularly plants. They would have put any Euro to shame.
Yet, they were nearly annihilated.
https://freetheanimal.com/2015/05/eating-nutrients-bulletproof.html
What happens when ethyl mercury crosses the *blood brain barrier, Richard??? It converts into inorganic mercury.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280369/
*infants have undeveloped blood brain barriers. Sigh.
Dose?
See, without even looking into it, it’s dismissible because you’re a fucking moron.
‘WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE CHILD SAFETY SEAT ACTUALLY CAUSED MY CHILD’S DEATH, RICHARD????!!!!”
Stop being an hysterical female, dude. I assume you’re a male, so how about act like one? Women are SUPPOSED to be outraged and irrational about this stuff—it’s their baby. The male role is to console and comfort and whatever, and give them another.
Stop being such a pussy fuck-cuck.
You still think I’m Dan?
Yes, dose. One vaccine dose per day or 7? 69 doses of 16 vaccines before age 18? What dose are you talking? You do realize mercury is also used in the production of vaccines and then “removed” by the manufacturers, right? So, it’s not just thimerosal. Or aluminum. Or MSG. Or whatever. It’s all cumulative and synergistic and genetic where the one size fits all “vaccine program” is ridiculous. Especially the vaccines in the pipeline (cocaine addiction, etc) not to mention the mandated chicken pox, hpv, heb b, . I’m certainly not hysterical….i never engage you one size fits all zealots but I look forward to the day 2 years from now you admit you are wrong. It’ll be interesting to watch you California folks go mandatory adult vaccination to see if that quickens the pace. You never answered…do you have any other pseudonyms?
“What dose are you talking?”
Nice try.
Why do youy think I called you a moron? A smart person, after that, would not try to do a cheap onus of proof shift on me.
You’re dismissed. You’re too stupid for me.
But, Richard! Dose matters, we agree! Life expectations are in decline, relative mortality rates are worse, 50% of Americans own a chronic illness, 37% of them are obese and 1 in 6 kids having a disability. We can’t keep ignoring health outcomes in pursuit of ignoring any potential causative factors (food, water, chemicals, smoking, opiods, and yes, even vaccines. Gasp! Unintended consequences, sir. As an aside I’d be curious what your wife has witnessed with brain development in children over the past 20 or 30 years of teaching the young ones. Has she noticed a pattern of increasing special needs, allergies, or difficulty in teaching today’s children compared to years past?? I think teachers can certainly play a role as the canary in the coal mine status for future health outcomes. Is she concerned at all with children’s edumacation status?
“One might presume that the indigenous north and south American natives had pretty decent guts, lots of natural prebiotics and soil probiotics upon the arrival of Europeans.
They got wiped out”.
Yes, when they were exposed to smallpox which was a novel infection for them.
“I LAF when ignorants talk about pre and pro biotics as some measure against viral and bacterial pathogens.”
I didn’t say that, Paul d did. A healthy gut microbiome is an important part of the body’s immune system. What the hell are you selling Elixa for if probiotics are not useful?
Dan – “These viruses are not deadly in developed countries with proper nutrition and are entirely unnecessary”
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/
I agree, california is not a developed country but still…
But then you admit than no number of pertussis vaccine boosters can produce 100% efficacy or even 50%. With data showing that more boosters actually results in more chances of vaccine failure.
From here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/129/5/968
“Decay in antibody to specific vaccine proteins over time is, of course, well known; however, its extent has been overlooked. For example, in a recent study between the third and fourth doses, antibody to PT, FHA, PRN, and FIM 2/3 fell eightfold, sixfold, sixfold, and sevenfold respectively.16 In the same study, the fall of antibody to the same proteins (PT, FHA, PRN, and FIM 2/3) between the fourth and fifth doses was 17-fold, 14-fold, 10-fold, and 16-fold respectively. The fall off of antibodies after the fifth dose has not been examined; however, 2010 California data show that between age 5 and 10 the percentage of vaccine failures per total cases increases linearly each year.17”
So why do they not blame the obvious vaccine failure?
What is the difference between someone who has not been vaccinated for pertussis and someone for whom the vaccine doesn’t result in antibody production. The answer to that is “absolutely nothing”.
Paul d – “I just get fed up with the miraculous properties ascribed to this crap. The illusion of the perfect naturally designed body that with removal of “toxins” adoption of untested eating approaches and supplements that nothing else is needed”.
I have not suggested any of the above. In case you don’t remember, my whole family is completely vaccinated.
I oppose mandatory vaccination using an overly inflated schedule addressing infections that are not now lethal in North America (MMR, chickenpox), that aren’t transmissible to infants except through an infected mother (HepB), or that the CDC has admitted are less than 50% effective (seasonal flu).
You are the one ranting on and on about probiotics. Yes, they are essential for proper immune function, No, they are not in and of themselves antimicrobial.
Paul d – “You assume immunity is mediated by a healthy gut flora and in turn this can be influenced by probiotics.”
Yes I do.
“I suspected that when I asked for some simple proof of the mercury neurotoxin fear mongering that Louise has been perpetuating we would see nothing that addressed this.”
Sorry, I was at work. I should be baking Christmas cookies instead of responding to you bunch of crackers.
http://www.vce.org/mercury/autone/Haly.pdf
“Ethyl-mercury, as it exists in a biological system, is more rapidly partitioned into
the hydrophobic (fatty) tissues of the central nervous system and is a more potent neurotoxin
than Hg2+ based on this “partitioning factor”. It is this partitioning factor that
makes organic-mercurials such as dimethyl-mercury so neuro-toxically lethal (this is the
compound that caused the death of a Dartmouth University chemistry professor after she
was exposed to a drop or two on her gloved hand). The concern with organic-mercurials,
such as thimerosal, is that such compounds can be perceived as “pro-toxicants” just as
certain pharmaceuticals can be classified as “pro-drugs”. This means that the original
compound, e.g. thimerosal, is less reactive giving the compound time to partition into
certain areas of the body before it breaks down releasing the ethyl-mercury and then
further releasing Hg2+. However, it is not necessary for ethylmercury to break down to
Hg2+ to be toxic. Ethylmercury appears to be more toxic to enzymes than Hg2+ in testing
systems where conversion of ethylmercury to Hg2+ would be extremely slow.”
“Considerable caution must be taken when stating what is the “toxic level” of
mercury and any mercury containing compounds. Humans are not rats in a pristine cage
where their environment can be controlled to ensure that other toxicities and infections
are not occurring. The level of mercury that would cause toxicity in a healthy individual
is much higher than what would be needed to cause a toxic effect in an individual that is
ill or under oxidative stress. This is because additional stresses lower the amount of
protective compounds, such as glutathione, that bind mercury and render it less harmful
and aid in the excretion of mercury from the cells. If an individual is low on such
protective compounds, then less mercury or thimerosal would be needed to cause a
clinical effect.”
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jt/2012/373678/
“Thimerosal generates ethylmercury in aqueous solution and is widely used as preservative. We have investigated the toxicology of Thimerosal in normal human astrocytes, paying particular attention to mitochondrial function and the generation of specific oxidants. We find that ethylmercury not only inhibits mitochondrial respiration leading to a drop in the steady state membrane potential, but also concurrent with these phenomena increases the formation of superoxide, hydrogen peroxide, and Fenton/Haber-Weiss generated hydroxyl radical”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280369/
“Given these findings, the researchers caution that risk assessments for thimerosal based on studies using blood mercury measurements may not be valid, depending on the design of the study. Further, the observed differences in distribution and breakdown of mercury compounds between exposed groups indicate that methylmercury is not a suitable model for thimerosal toxicity.
The researchers emphasize, however, that the risks associated with low-level exposures to inorganic mercury in the developing brain are unknown, and they describe other research linking persistent inorganic mercury exposure with increased activation of microglia in the brain, an effect recently reported in children with autism. They recommend further research focused specifically on the biotransformation of thimerosal and its neurotoxic potential.”
Thimerosal is still an ingredient of the annual flu vaccine. It was removed from other childhood vaccines in 2005.
If you would like I will post on aluminum, squalene and the other adjuvants coming down the line.
Alright, I’ve had it. I’m closing comments because we’re headed into the holidays and I don’t want to be distracted by this utter crap and idiocy. It’s exactly like arguing religion or creationism with dummies. Such idiots will never shut the fuck up.
For anyone else—non-morons, I mean—here’s a few reasonably decent links to check out:
http://antiantivax.flurf.net
https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c#.57fml04io
https://thelogicofscience.com/2015/02/01/15-common-anti-vaccine-arguments-and-why-they-are-a-load-of-crap/
http://time.com/3995062/vaccine-injury-court-truth/
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-07/popsci-guide-anti-vaccine-claims
http://www.healthline.com/health/worst-disease-outbreaks-history#Overview1
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/10/health/epidemics-through-history/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic_model
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.