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Arthur De Vany on Facebook; 1985 Paleo

For years and years, people have been asking me, “where is Art De Vany?” Right here.

Take an old narrative, make money and prestige off of it, then defend how right and just you were from the beginning, for the rest of your life.

I generally laugh at the idea. Sure, perhaps you’re Einstein and your ideas still stand up to thousands trying to falsify them. Rare. Usually, everyone including myself is always wrong. The challenge is never to be right, as that’s very elusive and generally unattainable. Rather, it’s just to be a little less wrong every day.

Dietary stuff—since dependent on so many other sciences from archaeology to anthropology—is markedly different. This is not to say that the paleo narrative did not have great value from its primitive 1985 beginnings, up until 2007 where it had remained unchanged, then took off.

It wasn’t seriously tested in all that lead up, but it sure is now, and I’ve been happy to have a part in that endless questioning and skepticism—in an overall template that still holds lots of value.

But I hate intransigence more than anything.

…My entry into all that is paleo took place via this blog in May, 2007, when a commenter told me some of the stuff I was intuiting on my own sounded like some dude by the name of Art De Vany. I Googled him; wrote a post. Here’s how I saw it then.

Art was out of the picture for a long while. He’s recently resurfaced on Facebook. Here’s how that went, in various posts and threads at his place and mine…


Thread At My Place (note how Art sometimes answers challenges with “whatever.”)

Richard Nikoley: In Arthur De Vany’s recent talk on cellular fortitude (he doesn’t like aging), one of the times I laughed out loud was when he said that maybe the healthiest thing about plants is their toxins.
Think about that. What if the reason to eat a wide variety of plants is the toxins and the hormetic benefit you get (what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger)?

The Duck Dodgers (a team of anonymous collaborators) has been chewing on an idea for a while. Not ready for press, yet, being vetted by others.

What if certain things like gluten, lectins, saponins…that are known to create gut issues actually allow us to better absorb some nutrients, particularly phytonutrients, polyphenols from plants?
Big idea.

Ben Salomon The narrative that the only reason we settled down into agriculture, and started cultivating and eating grains, was their energy density and storability, is certainly ripe for dismantling.

Ray Pepp Started to eat wheat again liberally and have never felt better. Homemade bread (5 ingredients), shredded wheat, muesli etc. Haven’t gained a pound and my stools are perfect.

Arthur De Vany So now you are a farmer rather than a hunter gatherer; this transistion could not have occured before 11,000 years ago. That leaves maybe 6 million years for your primary genes to be selected, 100,000 years for brain-development genes to come on the scene and about 100 years to adapt to modern commercial wheat and other foods. Get back to us in about 10 years. Nor have you told us what you switched from. So, it is hard to take your personal experience, which is not a guide for anyone but you, into account.

Richard Nikoley Hey Art, not to start any big argument or anything, but just something for you to chew on. My “Duck Dodgers” team of collaborators (one an Cambridge biochemist PHD who’s studied the mineral components of grains for three decades) looked into the actual history of wheat PRIOR to industrialization and fortification.

How Wheat Went From Superfood To Liability

I have experimented with a bakery in Santa Cruz that mills its grains every morning in-house and uses the whole thing (including the bran and germ with the little fatty acids and other nutrients), then makes various breads.

I find them all excellent, no digestive issues, and especially, no imperative to keep eating and eating. A loaf lasts me about a week or more in the fridge.

How Vitamin Supplementation Leads To Human Livestock Obesity

Ray Pepp Art I literally have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. All I know is that I started to eat whole grains again after years of faileo, and have never felt better. Now when I say wheat I mean 100% organic wheat is the only ingredient. My health is fine,my bloodwork looks the best it has in years. Instead of being scared of foods (thanks paleo) I eat what makes me feel good. Calories are king and always have been.

Arthur De Vany I like that “Faileo”. Best of luck; I know what the farmer’s skeletons looked like when agriculture began. If you don’t relate to that that is fine with me, but it may mean you don’t understand that basis of the diet/sleep/exercise/mood/fasting movement.

Tim Steele Arthur De Vany The problem with the “farmer’s skeletons” narrative is that it’s now obsolete.

The idea that grains are not a good food for humans comes from the study of ancient skeletons, as you point out. The bones of early farmers were found to have lesions which were thought to be due to iron deficiency as a consequence of eating grains instead of meat. It only became clear a few years ago that the lesions were not due to iron deficiency, making the original hypothesis rather flawed.

See: http://pmid.us/19280675

The skeletal lesions were perhaps due to episodes of starvation or something else. We don’t really know. But, I’m not sure why grains would be the culprit when all they did was end up powering the rise of Western civilization.

The point being that there are other variables besides grain that you haven’t considered for the issues you claim are due to grain. Famine and/or soil depletion seem like obvious culprits. Sand and grit in their flour, from poor milling standards, contributing to poor dental health and infections seems like another obvious problem. I wonder why you don’t consider that there are many other possible causes?

The causes of porotic hyperostosis and cribra orbitalia: a reappraisal…

Arthur De Vany You do not know that I did not consider other factors. A short post is not full narrative. The facts are not in question; starvation, insufficient nutrition, poor mineral metabolism, insufficient vitamin D in the farmer diet seems to be a factor in the selection for pale skin, which is known have been under selective pressure for better vitamin D production. And, the list goes on. If you had read my book you would know that I point to arthritis in the knees and cevicle area of the spine in women from the grinding of cereals. I also mention wear and tear of the teeth. As for the porortic hyperostosis, the early skeletons found with that deficiency are in northern humans; meaning migrating to a low sun environment and feeding on agricultural foods hastened that condition. Again, I point to the burial trenches at Catyal Huk. The early layers are the hunter gatherer burials, the later are the farmers. Tim Steele, your arguments are good, but they assume I am not aware of these issues and others. I have decided not to consume grains and it is no bother to me that you decide otherwise. What I fail to understand is why “grain eaters” go to such lengths to defend their position. Do they know that they are frigthened of the prospects of a life without the insulin hit and heightened inflammation that grains provide. A quick flush from eating an inflammatory food becomes a boost that people do seek. Beer does the same thing to me, so I stopped consuming beer.

Tim Steele Arthur De Vany I never try to persuade anyone to change how they eat unless they are eating SAD, then I do everything I can to get them on a healthier path. I think the science behind our diet deserves attention, particularly co-factors that are almost exclusively found in whole grains. I find it short-sighted to call whole grains inflammatory when so much research shows otherwise, ie. “Diets low in glycaemic load and high in whole grains may have a protective effect against systemic inflammation in diabetic patients, as reviewed elsewhere( 81 ).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4579563/

I am firmly convinced that the problems with grain are in the processing and enrichment, and inclusion in SAD staples as whole bread, muffins, snack crackers, etc.

Low-grade inflammation, diet composition and health: current…

Ray Pepp Tim Steele – hes saying that people who eat grains defend it yet people that are die-hard paleo make sure you know they eat Paleo. I know first hand because that was me. I’ll eat my flour everyday and be happy

Tim Steele Ray Pepp I never see people who eat whole grains “defending” that position, because it’s the diet eaten by the most long-lived people, mainstream nutritionists, and whole-food enthusiasts. There is no Whole Grain diet movement, just as there are no Drinking Water or Breathing Air counterinsurgencies. People have been trying to devise diets better than SAD and have come up with LCHF, LC Keto, LC Mediterranean, etc. Somewhere along the line, whole grains, starch, and “the carb” were demonized, quite unfairly I feel. My position is that these versions of paleo would all be made healthier if they were to include some whole grains, or portions of grain, ie. bran, and some nutrient rich starchy tubers.

Arthur De Vany I don’t care about your position, just go to a site you are happy with. It seems evident that you, Ray and others are somehow determined to support what may be your carb craving. Go somewhere else.

Anand Srivastava Tim Steele: I think the initial Farmers were growing a form of wheat. Wheat causes low vitamin D and other problems. Over time they would have started drinking and able to digest milk then it would have become ok. Also some other adaptations would also have happened. I find it interesting that wherever wheat is eaten people can drink milk. Also only Europeans have the kind of white skin. I think it has something to do with wheat and lack of sun.

Tim Steele Anand Srivastava That would be fun to explore with Arthur De Vany who said last week he was interested in genetic roles of health, but apparently not if it will lead us to a position of grain-acceptance, lol. I shall not sully these waters any more.

Ray Pepp Tim Steele it’s hilarious how upset these paleo people get. As soon as you challenge them that they might be wrong with facts (Thanks Tim) they say “I don’t care about your position, leave.” They refuse to believe that wheat might actually be healthy (hint hint, it is). Anand Srivastava ummm no sir, my vitamin D levels are just fine eating wheat. Actually had it tested a few weeks back, right at 50, which if you speak to every paleo friendly doc, that’s where they want it. Damn right I have carb cravings Art, which are completely normal by the way.

Don Rodgers Indeed. “”paleo” is based on the Ambiguity Fallacy.

“Claim X is made. Y is concluded based on an ambiguous understanding of X.”

“It is said that we have a good understanding of our universe. Therefore, we know exactly how it began and exactly when.”

“All living beings come from other living beings. Therefore, the first forms of life must have come from a living being. That living being is God.”

or…

“Some Neolithic skeletons at Catyal Huk showed sign of deteriorating health. Therefore, we are descended from carnivorous apes. We should eat mainly meat and fat.”

“A fringe theory suggests the Toba volcanic winter resulted in a genetic bottleneck of seaside hunter gatherers. Therefore, we must eat like those seaside hunter gatherers.”

Sounds utterly ridiculous when you can clearly see the fallacy. You can take any ambiguous data and then make any wild claim you like with it.

Ambiguity Fallacy

Anand Srivastava Ray Pepp: You must have a really dark skin because of how much Vit D you get. First understand what I am saying. No other people have the pasty white skin that Europeans have. You have a theory why it is like that? Not even Inuits have a skin like that. They get much lesser sun than the Europeans. There are other people also who don’t have that problem. I had seen a paper (thanks to Stephan Guynet) showing that whole wheat consumption caused more Vit D depletion than refined wheat.

Arthur De Vany Ray Pepp Be happy Ray. See you in 30 years. I am not paleo. I use paleo as a heuristic.

Arthur De Vany Tim Steele Another mistake. A genetic role does not lead to grain consumption, far from it. That’s not my paleo you are discussing; my paleo is based on genetic pathways, not some imaginary life style. Your potato is just about 8,000 years old in terms of human consumption. Every argument you give assumes some sort of ignorance on my or another person’s part. When I counter, you make another argument that is well-known and move the ground to that. Now you are on the ambiguity fallacy. First, your argument is wrong. Second, it would equally apply to potato consumption. Third, it, again, attributes stupidity or lack of sophistication to the other side. “”paleo types” is somewhat stereotypical and “Paleo” is not only not an ambiguity fallacy any more than the “Potato” narrative.

Arthur De Vany You or me Ray? Anyway, I have had these arguments before and they go nowhere. The science is not that far along. Potatoes might let you reproduce a bit more through closer birth spacing and that would mean you are less apt to live as long. If you understand evolutionary theory, that is. Grains are ambiguous in that respect because, there are no animals, but for cattle in commercial yards, for which grain consumption is tested; how would you test C. elegans for the effect of grains? It is however, true that lowering insulin signalling extends longevity in almost all creatures because it raises cell defenses through FOXO and other pathways. Grains and confinement are procedures for fattening cattle, which reduces their life expectancy. Centenarians have low insulin. Wheat endospore, the carbohydrate containing white part, stimulates insulin release; I have mentioned that the insulin index show white potato as second to glucose in its insulin-elevating power. Anand Srivastava clearly makes the vitamin D argument and gene profiling supports that; the early farmers were deficient in D and pale skin was a genetic adaptation to sustain life in a lowered vitamin D environment.

Richard Nikoley Not that it would necessarily change your view, Art, but it actually isn’t exclusively the grains that fatten the livestock. In fact, 100 years ago, livestock farmers had a tough time introducing grains to livestock. They would lose their appetites and would actually lose weight. They had to graze them periodically, only supplement with grains.

Then they began spiking the feed with B vitamins, and it was this supplementation that caused the livestock to overeat and get fat.

I outlined the story here.

How Vitamin Supplementation Leads To Human Livestock Obesity

Arthur De Vany I did not know that. Of course, the grains would make them sick. The B would help them tolerate their illness, as in humans. Of course a feeding pen is one of the least healthy places on Earth. It resembles early human farming; knee deep in filth and deficient in essential nutrients, not to mention the rats that invaded the fields that were denuded of their natural plant cover and rat predators.

Tim Steele My only point in all of this is that “grain” is not all equal, and there is a place for “grain” in a healthy diet. Take corn for instance…fueled massive expansion of paleo-Indians in the Americas, but when sent to Africa, nearly decimated those that ate it. Why? It was not nixtamalized. and led to pellagra and kwashikor.

Same with wheat. Fueled the Industrial Revolution but soon over-industrialization changed the nature of wheat, stripping it of its bran and oils.

My secondary point is that dietary research should focus on what is required for a healthy gut flora.

Arthur De Vany More like a reasonable argument. One must check their basal insulin to see how grains and potatoes alter their readings to see how well they accommodate their consumption. I have a guess that Ray might be a bit insulin resistant because he expressed a sense of relief when he went back to flour. If basal insulin exceeds 3.5, it is out of the best range for health. Mine is 3.0, the bottom of the lab reading, which seems to be creeping upward as more and more people raise the average, creeping toward insulin resistance. The new “normal” creeps up closer to a range of insulin resistance. In addition, the lean body mass, not BMI, ought to be relatively high, say over 18; mine is 24, the range of athletes. You must have enough protein to reach that range.

Richard Nikoley Just anecdotal, Art, but for some years, both the wife and I were IR, physiologically from chronic LC. Morning fasting readings 115-130.

I fixed it by eating nothing but potatoes for about two weeks, salt and a sprinkle of malt vinegar only. Initially, I would get BG spikes to 200+ and it would take two hours to clear.

By about day three, I could eat 2-3 pounds in a sitting, top out 130-140, and be under 100 within an hour. Morning BG returned to the 80s.

I think a lot of VLC dieters are like the couch potato, elevator is broken, has to take the stairs, heart rate goes to 300 and he concludes he can’t handle any exercise. Similarly with physiological IR, people go ahead and have that birthday cake and, BG jumps to 200 and they have “confirmed” that they can’t handle any carbohydrate, not even from whole food.

…Though I haven’t tested it, I suspect the chief way to achieve low basal insulin has a lot more to do with space in-between two meals daily, and a daily overnight fast of 14-16 hours.

Arthur De Vany Richard Nikoley Yes, muscle type FT2a and 2x are fantastic glucose disposal machines. You need those intervals between insulin/TOR signaling to bring on lower basal insulin. Odd thing is that it was first body builders who thought of the long overnight fast or the narrow eating window, but most ignored in favor of 6 meals a day…

Scott Claremont Are you saying the introduction of wheat caused vit D depletion in euro’s and hence why they have pale skin?

Arthur De Vany Not me, the scientific articles do that. But, no one says wheat caused it, it being defficient D. It was caused, if that is the right word in this complex context, by the lack of sun exposure in the high latitudes of early agriculture combined with the dark skins of early farmers and the lack of D in wheat. So, it was several factors. Not long after, genetic duplications led to the development of light skin. Skin color is just climate engineering to achieve a photo reflective and D absorbing color in each climate that humans adapted to.

Scott Claremont Tim Steele what would you consider poop good ?

Scott Claremont Arthur do you yourself spend time in the sun? Also I think I am starting to understand what you have been saying.. that early farming was where man went “wrong” ?

Tim Steele Scott Claremont Well formed stools, not diarrhea-like, not constipated. Not smelly. One or two bowel movements a day. You would not believe the number of athletes that have contacted me complaining of foul, tarry stools and bad gas. Lean meat with low-fiber veggies is a recipe for poor digestion. What clears it up? Eating more starchy foods, green bananas, raw potatoes, fiber supplements. I had an email just today, “I finally see what a good shit is like! Thanks!”

Arthur De Vany I spend a lot of time in the sun being a blue-eyed, blond, white skinned Swede-German-French guy. It all started with farming but white skin caused nothing; it was an adaptation to climate. All earlier humans had dark skin. We are all derived from African hunter gatherers who survived the volcanic winter on top of the Ice Age. With the advent of farming, then while lives mattered. Before that, black lives mattered. All the same human species. There are no races, just human beings. Skin color is only skin deep and a late change in the species.

Don Rodgers Art, Tim didn’t say anything about Ambiguity Fallacy. I was the one who said it. Not your paleo? Your stories about Toba and Catal Hayuk are based on ambiguous data and fringe interpretations that are used to justify your conclusions about diet. There’s no clear evidence that the Toba eruption resulted in a bottleneck where “just 2500 to 8000 humans made it through.” Most scientists don’t believe that theory anymore. It’s just a wild speculation. Nor is there conclusive evidence that the porotic hyperostosis at Catal Hayuk is due to nutrition. It *might* be. It *might* also be due to rampant infections (anemia of chronic disease). It could be due to massive hookworm infections. β-thalassemia (a.k.a. “Mediterranean anemia”) is also a prime suspect for porotic hyperostosis—related to the spread of malaria. Of course, you say you already know all this. Well, if you know how vague and ambiguous the conclusions are, then why do you tell these ambiguous stories to people in the first place? It’s misleading at best, and fraudulent at worst.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-22355515

Toba super-volcano catastrophe idea ‘dismissed’ – BBC News

Arthur De Vany You making up all those comments Don. I made no other claim than to say the burial trenches contain damaged skeletons and that diseases crossed over to humans from their animals. As to the bottleneck, it is a small factor whether gene flow narrowed there or many flows narrowed in several places; I understand there is some dispute, which is healthy and a debate among the proponents is still in process. Ayala, Ambrose, Oppenheimer (the latter two being Brits, Ayala being one of the great biologists of our time) and more recent work resulted in the graph I showed of the bottleneck in my IHMC talk. That was not an imaginary graph, but you know so little of what I am saying that you are making attributions with no basis. And, other than stress resistance as a means of making it through the Ice Age and the climate volatility what claim might you think I am making? The BBC is your authority? Check Curtis Marean on life at the seashore (beginning about 164,000 years ago at Pinnicle Point, Still Bay and other sites), or Stewart, or Crawford. The figure in my aging talk is fresh from recent literature and shows the L3 mitochondrial haplotype dropping to a range of 2500 breeding age humans and then expanding from there. The southern migration route out of Africa also supports an Eastern African origin of modern humans and low population densities. Another chart in the talk shows the lowest temperature of the last 100,000 years ago occuring just after Toba and Rambino and others say the volcanic winter may have lasted 1000 years with great damage to plant life. There is ash over the Indian Ocean floor dated to Toba, which is the largest volcanic eruption of the last 2 million years. Like I said, you are making up claims I don’t make. As to what is fraud or not, let the readers decide. I have nothing to sell based on what I have written. You are making representations that are yours alone, and they are clearly false. Stay off of my Facebook page if you cannot be truthful. I have published close to 100 scientific papers and several books and refereed for most of the major economics and mathematical operations research journals. i refereed for the National Science Foundation for years and was co-editor of a quality journal. I know what science is and how to do it.

Tim Steele Arthur De Vany “Stay off of my Facebook page…” It would be more impactful if you added “whippersnapper” and shook your fist. But this is Richard Nikoley’s yard…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283139/

Dietary Patterns in Alzheimer’s Disease and Cognitive Aging.

Some may be better than others.

Don Rodgers Art, sorry but this is not your Facebook page. This is Richard’s. Ad hominem attacks are unnecessary (and are a sign of weakness). There are plenty of sources besides the BBC that dispute the fringe Toba theory. The Toba eruption theory Wikipedia page calls it “high controversial” and spends more time debunking it than supporting it. If you don’t like the BBC, do you prefer LiveScience?

http://www.livescience.com/29130-toba-supervolcano…

Toba Supervolcano Not to Blame for Humanity’s Near-Extinction

Scott Claremont He’s gone Don

Don Rodgers And speaking of the ash on the Indian Ocean floor. If you cross the Indian Ocean, you reach Lake Malawi in Africa. Lake-floor sediments from Lake Malawi in East Africa shows no sign of a widespread volcanic winter following the Toba super-eruption 74,000 years ago, according to a new 2016 study.

Why not be more truthful and acknowledge that you are ignoring all the evidence that disputes Toba? As the Toba Wikipedia page points out, “Both the link and global winter theories are highly controversial.”

Surely you don’t expect people to buy into your ideas if there is so much doubt on the “highly controversial” interpretation you favor? Again, this all proves my point. You are relying on Ambiguity Fallacy to promote your diet (as is the whole basis of paleo). Otherwise, there would be no need to mention such a disputed event in the first place.

https://www.earthmagazine.org/…/lake-sediments-suggest…

Lake sediments suggest mild volcanic winter after massive Toba…

Arthur De Vany Remember what I said in my book; diversity your toxins, meaning eat a variety of plants, going by texture and color.

Richard Nikoley Also, consider that a whole plant has everything it needs to balance out its various toxic loads and oxidative stresses. This is especially true in the whole of grains and seeds, since that is the embryonic form of the next whole plant.

It’s fallacious to argue one shouldn’t eat grains if all you are eating is the endosperm, leaving aside the bran and the germ (the “egg yolk” as I like to call it), and basing it on that lopsided view.

Nobody has to eat grains any more than they have to eat any particular food, but the fact of industrial refining and spiking with b vitamins and other stuff is not an argument against grains, it’s an argument against industrial engineering and fortification policy.

In other words, you have to argue against the real thing, and most people have never actually had it.

Arthur De Vany Whatever.

Gregg Wolf It was my understanding that is what Art and others claimed archeology showed. As soon as we started using grains as a major food source, ancient Egypt for example, the skeletal remains showed signs of diabetes, CVD, tooth decay, skeletal problems, short life span etc.

Richard Nikoley There’s a LOT more to it than that simplistic paleo narrative (which not many anthropologists buy). Just one for instance is tooth decay. It was caused by their primitive milling technology and inability to filter out sand and dirt. The tooth decay is mechanical wear (Weston Price also observed some of this in his travels), not the nutritional makeup of grains.

Arthur De Vany Wheat germ is the germ line of the plant and it is well known that germ line signalling is a primary aging pathway. Taking in plant DNA and RNA, if they survive digestion, sends plant RNA to the ribosome and no telling what proteins it may make as a result of that signalling. Eunichs live longer.

Richard Nikoley Well, all the Blue Zone populations of highest average longevity have grains and legumes in their diets.

Moreover, one needs to consider the element of quantity and frequency.

Lots of difference between people who smoke two packs a day (40 cigarettes) and those who smoke 4.

I make neither grains nor legumes a major part of my diet. Just some, sometimes. I have a loaf of organic, whole multi-grain in the fridge and after two weeks (to the day) a third of the loaf is still in there. Still a couple of portions left of my pot of split pea soup from 10 days ago. I’ll have to finish that off today. 🙂

Last week was my higher fat, lower carb week (keeping protein 30-40%) and this week is my higher carb, very low fat week, same protein target.

Arthur De Vany Whatever.

Don Rodgers Arthur De Vany 1) Strictly speaking, plants do not have germlines and form their gametes from gametophytes and multipotent stem cell lineages that also give rise to ordinary somatic tissues. It’s believed that germline sequestration first evolved in complex animals.

2) Virtually all plant toxins have dual roles in the body—binding free iron and/or killing/starving/inhibiting cancer cells, or de-calcifying our arteries, or acting as nano-particles to carry phenolics past the gut wall.

3) Real world evidence overwhelmingly shows whole grains and whole legumes promote health. (Few people eat whole grains. Over 90% of the flour consumed in the US is ultra-refined roller-milled white flour).

4) Up until the Industrial Revolution, it was common for adults to eat between 1 to 2 POUNDS of bread per day. The richer the person, the whiter and more refined the flour they could afford. According to the Paleo™ narrative, such high intakes of grain should have decimated Western civilization’s health. Yet, the medical minds of every era (Hippocrates, Aristotle, Avicenna, Paracelsus, von Linné, Hodgkin, etc.)—each of whom obsessed about food, preparation and digestion—all wrote that it wasn’t at all controversial that bread was widely known to be the healthiest of all foods. If grains were so deleterious, they would have noticed given the tendency for very high grain consumption.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606981/

Once the roller mill was invented, flour became utlra-refined and it then became obvious to health gurus in the 19th century that “bolted” (white) flour was indeed deleterious to people’s health. These modern health issues were quickly reversed with high fiber whole grain diets—most notably that of Sylvester Graham and John Harvey Kellogg. Interestingly, they too were obsessed with preserving human germlines—mainly by avoiding masturbation.

Anyhow, it should be noted that the great flaw in the Paleo™ narrative is the failure to distinguish the difference between whole foods and the refined foods that overwhelmingly dominate modern diets.

Of all foods bread is the most noble: Carl von Linné (Carl Linneaus) on…

Arthur De Vany Don Rodgers But, what you ascribe as a flaw of paleo is not a flaw; it is the singular insight, though not unique to paleo, that whole foods are superior to processed food. Funny about the trademark you put there. I was referring to wheat germ by name, not gamete. I think we all know about the milling issue. My book makes none of those flaws and discusses extensively the unique foods humans eat now that were not part of the evolutionary experience. I admire all those scientific minds you list, but we are far from their state of knowledge now; no vital spirit, no humors, no phlogistum, we don’t bleed people now, we understand germs, inheritance, DNA, and on and on. Thanks for your thoughts, but the argument fails I think.

Tim Steele Don Rodgers Ancient Starch Research.

Ancient Starch Research. What role did plant resources have in the evolution of the human species? Why and…

What role did plant resources have in the evolution of the human species? Why and…

Arthur De Vany Furthering the toxin stress route to longevity, it may be that the grains, with toxins that can sterilize a bull, might be good for you.

Richard Nikoley But that makes no sense, Art, since fecundity increased tremendously with the introduction of grains in the diet. Even more when potatoes were introduced to Europe.

Arthur De Vany They entered the Malthusian pump. That all has to do with the availability of energy and the starch/insulin signalling. And fewer infants starved only to starve later when the crop failed.

Arthur De Vany This silly argument is my slight stress now.

Arthur De Vany Other than low insulin and a lean body, few other features identify centenarians; diet has not yet been shown to be determinative of longevity, though there are hints the Mediteranean Diet might protect health. Longevity is a stochastic process, health is too, but it is less random than longevity. So, diet may have impact on health but its effect on longevity would be buried in the random noise. And, diet is more than portions of macronutrients or amounts of calories. All we have been discussing in this extended argument is macro composition of the diet, with no other macro nutrients but starch. We first ought to discuss protein and then fat and carbohydrate take their lesser positions in the hierarchy.

Arthur De Vany Somebody needs to tell Ray Pepp that his reunion and happiness with flour suggests that he is insulin resistant and high glycemic flour is needed to release enough insulin to allow the glucose to penetrate into his cells. I would guess that his fasting insulin is at least 7, but I don’t wish that on him.

Richard Nikoley Well, now you have to go get the test, Ray.

Nobody ever, ever, ever, amongst the 120 billion people who’ve ever lived ate grains and was healthy and if they were, it was completely outlier on bell curves and genetically stochastic.

Arthur De Vany Richard, I get the parody, but Ray said he loved being back on flour. What do you think his insulin reading is? Hunter gatherers come in at about 5. Again, even you are making it up like Don Rodgers. Where do I say that? You two are a pair. Time for us to part.

[When I saw this comment next morning from Art, it curiously came with no ability to reply, even though it’s my own page, my own thread. Art had unfriended and blocked me. I must say, that in the context of the above, the victory goes to me and those other than Art in the thread.

You’re welcome to judge otherwise.

There were a couple of other discussions on Art’s Facebook page. Some are truncated, but you’ll get the gist.]


Arthur De Vany I NEVER eat grains; it is the easy way to grow a fat cow or bull and the bull, I am sure, regrets being emasculated and fat from the grains it is fed.

Let me simply explain my argument against grains. I have no argument with anyone who wants to eat them; whole grains are a lot better than plant starch, which is what you get when you eat milled grains.

First, plant starch is the plant version of fat. A plant makes few fats. But, starch is akin to the energy storage organ of …

Fredrick Hahn But lot’s of people eat grain and do not get fat and many have single digit body fat levels. It’s not grain per se – it’s the total amount of carbohydrate and whether or not your insulin resistant.

Tim Steele I’m against any grain that has been processed and especially enriched. I do not eat wheat, even whole grain wheat, because it seems to give me gout, which I discovered after experimenting with whole grain Farro and Kamut last year.

I eat oatmeal, in groat form, once or twice a week. I eat corn, buckwheat, and many grain-type seeds (quinoa, flaxseed, hemp, and chia) in my normal rotation of foods. My blood pressure is 115/75 or so, normal BMI, normal labs all around.

I do not eat grain for me, I eat it for my gut bacteria. They reward me in many ways. I do not eat grain in isolation, so I have no fear of becoming fat or emasculated, and I harbor no ill-will towards people who have fallen for the “grains are bad” mantra of paleo dieting.

I believe that the beta-glucans found in oats and the resistant starch found in most whole grains outweigh any and all arguments counter to grain consumption. I feel that many minerals found in whole grains, ie. manganese, magnesium, iron, as well as vitamins and other chemicals found in whole grains are important co-factors in mitochondrial functioning.

Obviously that Art Arthur De Vany has survived many moons without grain shows me that they are not mandatory, but many cultures who subsist heavily on whole grains tell me they are not the death trap described above.

Nutritional cofactor treatment in mitochondrial disorders. – PubMed – NCBI

Arthur De Vany I described no death trap. But, phytate signaling blocks many of the factors you mention. For you, skipping wheat is a signal to me that you understand the argument. That you choose to go your own way is consistent with the libertarian stance most paleo types take, especially me. Probably the last libertarian, with a small, “l” at the University of California.

Richard Nikoley Just to be aware, the science on phytate has changed. Gut bacteria to blame.

A Bacterial Homolog of a Eukaryotic Inositol Phosphate Signaling Enzyme Mediates…

Richard Nikoley Here’s the layman summary version of the above study.

How bacteria communicate with us to build a special relationship

Arthur De Vany Good article that refers to phosphatases, not phytates. The micro biome never troubles me; but it used to when I ate breakfast cereal long ago, with milk. My PrePaleo days thankfuilly are now far behind me.

Richard Nikoley “They found, in one of the most prominent gut bacteria species, an enzyme able to break down phytate.”

From there it goes on to describe how they are converted to other nutrients.

Tim Steele Phytate is not limited to grain, also found in nuts…a paleo staple. The biggest critique of phytates is that they prevent some mineral absorption, ie., iron and calcium. But phytic acid is also a powerful antioxidant and perhaps the minerals that are not absorbed help deliver these minerals to the colon where they are also needed. In developing countries where just getting enough calories is a problem, high grain diets can be problematic. In the context of a whole food Mediterranean style diet, whole grains should be appreciated, IMO.

“Important health benefits have been reported recently to phytate intake. This includes the prevention of pathological calcifications such as renal calculi, dental calculi and cardiovascular calcification, due its action as crystallization inhibitor of calcium salts, and as preventive of cancer.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20108098

Scott Claremont Better than plant starch? Better than potatoes or tubers? You don’t eat potatoes Arthur?

Arthur De Vany Interesting remarks. It seems all seeds of plants contain phytates. But then, all seeds must protect themselves from their predators. It seems that might be a common plant strategy. Nuts are seeds of trees, beans are seeds of bean plants(?).

[…]

Arthur De Vany A famous line that. It’s that darn germ line in the end. My book might be the only one to discuss it; it is the gospel, if I thought there was one..

Gregory Hunter Hoeper Arthur De Vany how do you feel about resistant starch? Can be applied to whole food or supplemental form.

Steven Strittmatter I’ve been grain free for almost 20 years and have been completely free of sinus congestion, which had previously been a lifelong problem.

Arthur De Vany Steven Strittmatter I could have gone into allergies, a major component of the immune system activation in trying to clear the allergens grains contain.

Ray Audette Raw grains consists of flour,water and fiber. In France they call that paper-mache. Paper-mache will cause a potentially lethal bowel obstruction in any Primate but will be eaten with great relish by any ruminant such as a goat!

Richard Nikoley The French eat about 40% more wheat than Americans, which you can look up yourself at fao.org, and are yet leaner and healthier than Americans, and live longer on average.

So, you’re falsified. There are many different eating styles and in the end it …


Arthur De Vany Wheat again and for the last time.

I pointed to a known aspect of phytates and I end up getting posts from out there in the cyberspace about how good they are and they should not be demonized. Well, I did not demonize wheat, Loren Cordain published a good paper on the downside of wheat. I discussed some other aspects of wheat and there are many beyond phytates (think allergenic factors that challenge immunity, histimine and sneezing, and out and out immunity-derived inflammat…

Jordan Hedberg Cows on the other hand stress grass by eating it, which the grass responds to in an anti-fragile manner, sinking deeper roots and increased seed production. However, too much grazing will kill the grass so cows tend to wander a lot to give grass plants a break.

This is why I eat my cows but not the grass or its seeds….

Arthur De Vany Anti-fragile grass; I should have known. Nice point. Does grass secrete factors that make the cows wander, such as when a C. elegans roundworm moves away from heat not by thinking about it but because Heat Shock Proteins are secreted and impinge on the CNS?

Carlo Pagano The dilemma of medicine is that you can find experts who state that something is the truth and other experts who state that just the opposite is, e.g. Dr Loren Cordain Vs Dr McDougall…

Arthur De Vany Carlo Pagano Neither goes to the issues that are now becoming fundamental; things like the DNA damage response, autophagy, stem cell maintenance and proliferation, and all the deep aspects of cellular immunity.

Jordan Hedberg Art DeVany I had not thought about that, but what I can say from observation is that we have a rule of the “second bite” one bite from a cow is good stress, two is death for the grass plant.

Cattle do not like to take a second bite but if confined by barbwire they will, they cannot move on. Thats why we use electric fence to rotate. …

Richard Nikoley Hot off the presses and relevant to a discussion of grains.

Intestinal bacteria may protect against diabetes

“A high concentration of indolepropionic acid in the serum protects against type 2 diabetes, shows a new study. Indolepropionic acid is a metabolite produced by intestinal bacteria, and its production is boosted by a fibre-rich diet. According to the researchers, the discovery provides additional ins…”

Arthur De Vany “May” is always a turnoff for me. I, personally, have little confidence in the gut biome, it is so complicated and large in terms of creatures, about 37 trillion, who could understand it. Just in terms of numbers, EVERYTHING could be traced to some hum…

Richard Nikoley Well, they actually address this and acknowledge it in the paper. So, rather than ask which species is breaking down and producing what, they ask what things we know are in serum that are protective, go up or down with various dietary compositions.

It’s similar in knowing that SCFAs like butyrate feed colonocytes, so protective against colon cancer and the compromise of “tight junctions.” People think eating butter, coconut oil, and gulping MCT oil helps here, but it doesn’t. It’s all absorbed long before it gets to the colon.

To get it in the colon, it needs to be produced by the residents and the proven way to do that is by fiber. So, Kitavans, for instance, have a higher fat diet than observed by the late Lindeberg, but it’s SFCAs produced in the colon, virtue of the substantial amount of tubers consumed.

Arthur De Vany Yes, in the colon colony. Fibers seem to rule there.

Arthur De Vany Visa vi, Richard Nikoley’s post above. Rather than what MAY protect against diabetes there is what DOES protect against type 2 diabetes: eating less, exercising more, less carbohydrate, less simple sugar, and less fat. Simple as can be. The rest is just people who look for almost anything in order to avoid the proven answers listed above.

Tim Steele Or, one could muse: Diets that contain lots of plant matter, including wheat, seeds, and other whole grains confer long life, cardiovascular health, and low risk of diabetes. Could it be things like resistant starch and fiber that make this diet so he…See More

Richard Nikoley Tim Steele And added fat, especially the industrial machinery lubricant kind.

Scott Claremont “In the 1920s, “diabetes” was thought to be a disease of insulin deficiency. Eventually, measurements of insulin showed that “diabetics” often had normal amounts of insulin, or above-normal amounts. There are now “two kinds of diabetes,” with suggestions that “the disease” will soon be further subdivided.” RP

I was thinking the same in ref to the end of ref quote. More than one way to reach the same destination

Jordan Hedberg As Nassim Nicholas Taleb would say, “health is mostly found via negativa, through the removal, not the addition of substances.”

Scott Claremont Arthur what do you say to Ray Peats take re sugar and diabetes

http://raypeat.com/…/art…/glucose-sucrose-diabetes.shtml

Arthur De Vany Scott Claremont I’m not going to read it. Judge for yourself.

Jordan Hedberg Read Gary Taubes “The case against sugar” It’s a good history of Sugar and its increase around the world.

However people than go crazy and claim a fat only diet must be healthy, neither unlimited Sugar or Fat would have been “paleo” in human evolution.


OK, so there you have it. Think what you want. It’s just for the record and I have no intention of making a bid deal about it.

My own opinion is that I don’t think Art De Vany is of much value in learning anything new about decent diets. His cellular aging and longevity stuff might have some value, though perhaps more if he were to study all the Blue Zone regions of highest average longevity.

They might even offer him a meal….


Elixa Probiotic is a British biotech manufacturer in Oxford, UK. U.S. Demand is now so high they’ve established distribution centers in Illinois, Nevada, and New Jersey.

Still, sell-outs happen regularly, so order now to avoid a waiting list.

Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More

57 Comments

  1. Robert on April 26, 2017 at 05:40

    The problem with Paleo, is that it’s so far back in time, and you know nothing for sure about the conditions and diets of people. One could probably come up with any kind of diet, then fantasize freely about some kind of scenario that could have happened 1000s of years ago to fit one’s particular dietary scheme.

    It was a good attempt to explain the modern diseases and obesity, but why go so far back in time? Weston Price OBSERVED healthy cultures 100 years ago. He didn’t fantasize, extrapolate etc. It’s an observation. Same with blue zones, Japanese, French, etc today.

    There was no need to go further than preindustrial food to find good nutritional health. I’m fascinated by this article:

    Forget Paleo, go Mid-Victorian

    Puts things into perspective. Modern medicine has raised life expectancy mostly due to neo-natal care. And it keeps us alive in old age despite our poor diet. In the mid-Victorian era, they were healthy and working in old age, not just alive.

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 06:07

      So did Ancel Keys. The Seven Nations was a drilldown on multiple cultures, and not just to blame fat for CHD. The study of Japanese farmers for instance reveals a lot about stomach cancer.

      The publications list is astounding.

      http://www.sevencountriesstudy.com/study-findings/publications/#japan

      Ancel took it to the bank IMO. He picked Italy and lived out 40 years of his life tending his plot and eating what people there ate.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 06:45

      “It was a good attempt to explain the modern diseases and obesity, but why go so far back in time? Weston Price OBSERVED healthy cultures 100 years ago. He didn’t fantasize, extrapolate etc. It’s an observation. Same with blue zones, Japanese, French, etc today. ”

      This. And I keep saying it all the time.

    • Robert on April 26, 2017 at 08:45

      Is the Twinkie diet Paleo? You may argue that it is. You can point to the Hadza, and other Hunter-Gatherers, getting majority of calories from honey at certain times. Yet, any sane person would see the folly of such a diet.

      Is losing weight by ingesting tapeworms Paleo? Of course, they all had parasites back then. Yet, I’m not inclined to try it.

      Is the Raw Food diet Paleo? Those cavemen hadn’t discovered fire yet, so it is. Is the Cotton Ball Diet Paleo? Why not? They would have consumed a lot of indigestible plant matter. It numbed their hunger and stopped them from overeating.

      Superficial similarities to a romanticized image of cavemen doesn’t prove anything. Twinkies are not identical to raw honey. Beef+butter is not identical to wild game. We live very different lives, the whole context is different.

    • MAJ on April 26, 2017 at 09:08

      Yeah, the model that Price offers makes sense. The great majority of my relatives are tall and healthy, not overweight at all, live into their 90s. They do moderate exercise, work jobs that are sedentary or require minimal labor (most of them), eat sugar and wheat, white potatoes, fruit, and celebrate with beer and cake.

      I’m the genetic slush pool, apparently, short compared to my family, prone to body fat, dumb as the stump I resemble, but I’m still not obese. Perhaps restricting certain foods might help me achieve some untapped genetic potential but it could cost me membership in my tribe.

  2. Hap on April 25, 2017 at 17:57

    Ouch….it will take me a month to read this as carefully as I would like. I wrote that Art was “officious”….and felt bad afterwards……well I can still feel bad, but not sure I was anywhere near wrong or half wrong.

    I’ve been feeling uneasy about Art for a while and I wrote some reasons why. This whole thing about diets and correct lifestyles is starting to get grating. And furthermore……as a professional scientist/medical doctor and knowing my limits, I am appalled at how people have substituted “scientism” for science. It’s no more about leading where the data points….it’s about agenda…just politics with another face. The internet has made it possible for people to accrue a following just by throwing out some science nonsense….”studies say” and becoming a guru.

    Jericho’s wall is crumbling a bit….even the discoverer of DNA is repenting of the genomic disaster.

    I think Art is correct about , at least, one thing. Fasting. It’s not a panacea, but time has not broken it. The Lindy Effect.

    Richard you are going after them…first Jimmy…now Art….glad I don’t claim to be an expert.

  3. Hap on April 25, 2017 at 18:01

    Maybe I should read this carefully…could change my mind.

  4. Daniel F on April 25, 2017 at 20:30

    Sounds like he is doubling down even more than he used to. I can remember his quote, which Richard liked to re-quote, that “There are no forbidden foods.”

  5. Mark J on April 25, 2017 at 21:21

    Fasting and protein for the Venn diagram win.

    So he’s intransigent. He’s 80. And whatever he did worked for him. Why the fuck should he care to change now.

  6. Charles Richardson on April 26, 2017 at 00:19

    What a great, informed discussion. Who care if people got a bit tweaked, passionate arguments are often the most revelatory. So good to have some smart people make strong arguments, and for the most part, support those arguments. I could listen to this stuff all day.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 06:30

      Reasonable take on it, Charles.

      See the bright side and I suppose you’re right about that.

      The disillusiinament on my part comes from sensing that so many of us have moved beyond De Vany in terms of keeping up with all,this stuff and changing our views accordingly. Including microbiome science which he seems quite dismissive of.

  7. Z-man on April 26, 2017 at 01:12

    Dude. Does anyone know how to measure calories in poop? I am trying to measure calories absorbed by subtracting the calories in my poop from my calories eaten. I cannot find anything on eBay that will do this. Is there an appropriate method I can use by weighing the poop perhaps?

    • pzo on April 27, 2017 at 08:10

      Dry it out, put it in a caloriemeter.

      Of course, a lot of that would be plant fiber that we mostly can’t digest anyway.

      Whatever remains in poop is still part of your calorie count when it went in the other orifice.

  8. MAJ on April 26, 2017 at 04:03

    I just want to know when and why eating got so damned hard.

    Obesity epidemic, I get it. Just stop eating crappy sugary and fatty food. I’ve been to a few places around Europe and the U.S., and I tell you, only tourists eat pastries like they’re disappearing and love fast food as much as life itself. Everyone else walks a lot to where they need to be and eats a bit to keep them satisfied. Even Oliver and Bourdain were too romantic on the subject of school lunches. School lunches in America are crap but our culture supports it.

    You want a quick fix? Go with whatever does it for you, but you can’t prescribe the Twinkie diet as a way of life, only a band aid.

    I’m mostly a vegetable eater. I eat meat but not six times a day, maybe not even six times a week. I don’t have a ripped six pack or look like your basic bitch Instagram hottie of the week in hot pants and Nikes.

    Across the globe, up it, down it, East it, West it, you get people looking thin and trim or fat and happy eating all kinds of foods even poisonous wheat and deadly sugar. These things can wreak nutritional havoc but they don’t always.

    Can I just have some pasta once in a while and be happy?

    • Shameer M. on April 26, 2017 at 09:56

      “I just want to know when and why eating got so damned hard.”

      I know right. Which is why I think this article sums it up best

      “It’s more important to not eat processed refined junk foods.”

      http://caloriesproper.com/the-broad-study-or-meat/

  9. thhq on April 26, 2017 at 05:57

    As Candide said, we must tend our own garden.

    Catalhoyuk fascinates me but I draw different conclusions. I was interested in the bones left from what they ate, and the grain they collected and roasted, and the soot deposited on their own ribs. Art lives in a different garden from the one I live in. No better, no worse, just different and not worth arguing about.

    Yesterday I visited the Linus Pauling Institute to join a study on hazelnuts. Pauling now interests me because he lived to be 93, and now I need to find out more about him. But that’s not why I went. Learning always seems to result from accidents like this.

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 16:21

      “Usually I eat two eggs in the morning, sometimes bacon, but I happen to be lazy enough not to cook more than one thing for a meal. The last two days I was eating oxtail soup with vegetables. I don’t know what I’ll have today. Perhaps some fish. In my book [How to Live Longer and Feel Better] I say you shouldn’t eat sweet desserts, but I also quote a professor who says that this doesn’t mean that if your hostess has made this wonderful dessert you should turn it down. My wife used to say I always looked for that hostess.”

      -Linus Pauling, 1987.

      That’s the breakfast his friend John Yudkin recommended in his 1958 diet book This Slimming Business.

    • Robert on April 26, 2017 at 06:38

      thhq,

      Let us know what you find on Pauling. You have written many insightful and interesting comments, especially on longevity. I have also been annoyed by many of your comments, and that’s a good sign. You’ve challenged my preconceived notions. Especially your worship of Ancel Keys. Coming from an LCHF background, where Keys is the Devil and Satan, it’s as offensive as Satanism to a Christian… Keep it up!

    • Sassysquatch on April 26, 2017 at 06:39

      Linus Pauling was not an advocate for any ‘special’ kind of diet. His recommendation was just to eat a ‘sensible’ diet. Pauling was much more in to mega-dose vitamin therapy, especially vitamin C (ascorbic acid) supplementation. He regularly took 10 to 12 grams of vitamin C a day, in divided doses…..more if he was sick.

      Kind of goes against what the current crop of diet and health gurus say, which is to get your nutrients from real food and keep supplements to a minimum.

      I believe Linus Pauling is the only 2 time solo winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

    • Hap on April 26, 2017 at 06:58

      Linus Pauling barely lost out on a third NP….DNA

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 09:14

      The irony of it is that the Linus Pauling Institute was constructed using donations from the Reser family. I don’t know of ANY plan for healthy living that’s based on their ready-to-eat macaroni and potato salads.

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 14:11

      My inquiries usually start with What Did X Eat for Dinner.

      I know that Linus had lots of Vitamin C, that he went meatless in the 1940’s, and that he was in agreement with Yudkin on avoiding excessive added sugar.

      However ca 1979 he liked a good juicy steak for dinner. He wasn’t avoiding a good meal in his mid 70’s.

      https://books.google.com/books?id=YgVwAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=%22dinner+with+linus+pauling%22&source=bl&ots=_A0lLf4C3Q&sig=yxa1vhjmvuy29pdWfZYdBP9WtQo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuk6yegsPTAhUB0GMKHSSJCt4Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22dinner%20with%20linus%20pauling%22&f=false

      This guy sounds OK.

    • thhq on April 27, 2017 at 06:18

      Yudkin generously allowed toast with the bacon and eggs. And I’m sure Pauling didn’t leave out the orange juice.

      This USED to be the standard American, Irish and UK breakfast. When did we go off the rails into Frosted Mini Wheats?

  10. La Frite on April 26, 2017 at 06:22

    Art de Vany shows that for all his anti-aging talk, his mind has already aged, as in rigidified. When my skin looks old and wrinkled, I hope that mind will still be flexible and open to new stuff.

    • MAJ on April 26, 2017 at 06:47

      He’s found the fountain of youth, why won’t you all just drink from it already?

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 09:16

      As they say, the science is already done.

  11. Antonio on April 26, 2017 at 07:21

    “in the context of the above, the victory goes to me and those other than Art in the thread”
    LOL & Whatever

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 07:29

      “LOL & Whatever”

      Yea, Antonio, Art did a couple of “whatevers” in the thread too. Apparently you two think it counts for something.

      It doesn’t. It’s worse than saying nothing, indicative of a closed mind, but also one that likes to play the dodge and ruse that it’s actually not.

      Would you actually take on any of the various challenges to Art proffered by myself, Tim, Don, and a few others where his response was “whatever,” or how eunuchs have great longevity and other evasions of reasonable arguments and various published research? No. It’s all “LOL & Whatever.”

      Bravo.

    • Antonio on April 26, 2017 at 11:51

      Just answering ‘whatever’ is (drumroll):
      1. worse than saying nothing
      2. indicative of a closed mind
      3. indicative of a mind that likes to play the dodge
      4. a ruse (that it’s actually not.)

      Ok, I just have to think of that for a while. Just be patient, winners.
      I’m thinking on that already.

    • Antonio on April 26, 2017 at 11:52

      Not sure about #4

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 12:11

      The ruse element is actually being a bit kind. Normally, I’d call it a theft.

      There are a number of ways to dismiss another and I’m not per se, against that. It’s often required. For example, there’s lots of stuff out there—various vegan stuff we’ve dealt with a million times—that you just have to draw a bright line about what you’re going to engage, and not.

      We have 24 hours, I get it.

      There are other sorts of dismissals that aren’t like not responding at all, or some other form of signalling that you’re not going to take it up.

      It’s of the form where, in a word or two, one attempts to elevate themselves over what was offered as a legitimate argument. It’s dismissive in a way that attempts to convey the idea (in an almost ad hominem sense) that no matter, nothing you can proffer is worth my time.

  12. ramon on April 26, 2017 at 08:52

    Dissapointed he did not comment on the “Ray Peat” carrot. Ray is a very interesting person, if not a little fringe, I am not sure if Art is just dismissing him as a charletan, or if he was just giving up the conversation and didn’t look at it.

    Ray might be the first biohacker.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 10:50

      Hell, he didn’t even know who Chris Masterjohn is.

      I will grant there is some value in not getting yourself too distracted in what others are doing at the expense of your own work, but C’mon.

      I’m sure Einstein was quite familiar with Newton’s work.

    • Hap on April 26, 2017 at 11:41

      Didn’t he say at one time that Chris Masterjohn was a fraud or ignorant? I could be thinking of someone else.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 12:03

      Yes, over Chris’ six-year-old review of his book on Amazon. I guess he just got around to reading them, because only a couple of months ago, he said how great mine was, also about six years old.

      He’s really on the ball.

      And it’s his own book.

  13. hap on April 26, 2017 at 09:52

    “Whatever”, typically is a dismissive comment. A polite..”fuck you”.

    Those trillions of bacteria in the gut are there doing something…..I am sort of suprised that Art dismissive of gut biome, but presumably perfectly happy that bacterial progenitors are blissfully residing in the cytosol of mamalian cells producing ATP.

    And regardinging toxins…..well….the same adapted bacteria that are symbiotic with cells produce plenty of toxic waste (ROS etc), but also engage in the antidote of glutathione production.

    Again, N=1, but I obsessively (or so says wife unit) test BG (fasting, posprandial, between meals)… and after amoxicillin x 10 days…..big time rises. A two week break did not change. A course of Elixa…..substantially reversed. Diet…same, stress…SAME…..etc. It would be interesting to hear from others, who might have to engage in short term antibiotics, as to their experience.

    Even after rereading your post, I can understand that the guy does not want to engage forever in argument, and probably prefers to do his “thing”. He’s not Socrates sitting around all day…..in dialogue with the disciples. However, I suspect we who do like to “get it on” should just let it lie.

    Admittedly, it all does get confusing , sometimes triggering paralysis.

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 14:23

      The N=1 experiments at my house always get flak, so the really crazy ones are covert. I just finished a 2 week experiment on whether bitter flavor before dinner (quinine and denatonium benzoate) suppresses night hunger. The N=1 answer is no (the effect is gone in 3 hours post prandial) but I’d forgotten how good tonic tastes. Especially Fever Tree. Just a 1 oz shot does it for me.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 14:30

      I’m a club soda junkie. Literally quarts per week. I love the burn.

      Yesterday, I splurged and juiced a lemon into a glass.

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 14:32

      Speaking of Socrates, I just finished reading Xenophon’s Anabasis. Socrates was negative on his friend X marching to Babylon with Cyrus. X should have taken his advice.

      The book has a good cross section of the tiesty 400 BC Asia Minor tribes (Kurds are still there). A good general treatise on Why We Fight. When your town is confronted with 10,000 peltasts and hoplites finishing their daily 15 miles they’re hungry. And they want YOUR food.

    • SusanB. on April 29, 2017 at 14:42

      I am officially confused and paralyzed regarding healthy dietary choices. I just cannot make sense of all of it anymore.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 29, 2017 at 15:08

        Yuh on yuh ohne. (Ahnold voice) 🙂



  14. Hap on April 26, 2017 at 14:32

    You would think Karl might be interested…..right?

    At least you won’t get malaria…

    • thhq on April 26, 2017 at 14:40

      I could pull up the clinical studies hap. Quinine and DB are effective agents to suppress ghrelin, resulting in more rapid satiation. Not for very long though. For a weight loss diet bitterants might help a little.

    • thhq on April 27, 2017 at 06:15
  15. Hap on April 26, 2017 at 14:33

    Club soda really that different than something like……Arrowhead sparkling water?

    • Richard Nikoley on April 26, 2017 at 14:42

      Yep. Most sparkling water is basically distilled with CO2.

      Club Soda has added salts.

      I make my own with a Soda Spring.

      1 TSP of baking soda to a liter of water.

      Try it both ways. Done the blind taste test a number of times. Club Soda wins hands down.

  16. Justin Watts on April 26, 2017 at 16:58

    Very great dialogue on the whole. I will go back through more slowly and read some of the links more closely.

    Where the rubber meets the road for me is in practical application. Grains don’t work for me (celiac), nor do nightshades. But potatoes and bread work for a ton of people, and if it makes them healthy they should eat them. I don’t live in 8,000 BC, and I don’t understand why so many cling to the idea that what was eaten then has to be eaten now. I can just see some scientist like Art studying my bones 10,000 years from now, and using me as the proof that grains and potatoes should be eliminated from their diets…

    • ramon on April 27, 2017 at 06:19

      Everyone is different to some extent. I have come across a gentlemen that gets a rash all over his body when he tries to go keto (unknown if he ate something he was sensitive to) and on the Ray Peat afficionado FB page there are a couple of folks that went 100% Peaty with the orange juice, cokes, aspirin, and pregnenolone, and are having horrible results.

      It does take some intentional N=1 tests to determine what works for you. I like Richards philosophy of not having carbs and fat in the same meal on a regualr basis.

  17. Evolutionarily on April 27, 2017 at 23:44

    FYI some of the comments you have not transcribed in full due to Facebook just showing the snippet on longer comments which you need to click See More to see the rest.

    “Tim Steele Or, one could muse: Diets that contain lots of plant matter, including wheat, seeds, and other whole grains confer long life, cardiovascular health, and low risk of diabetes. Could it be things like resistant starch and fiber that make this diet so he… See More?”

    • Richard Nikoley on April 28, 2017 at 06:35

      Yes, that’s not the case for the first thread, which is on my wall, but on the second two. Art blocked all of us before we had all of that sorted out.

      However, the threads should be easy enough to find on his wall as he posts all his stuff open public, so you don’t have to be “friends” first, but you do have to have a Facebook account.

  18. Weilasmith on April 27, 2017 at 14:14

    Richard, what are your top health goals? How do you measure if you are meeting your goals? Do you feel that you are meeting them?

    • Richard Nikoley on April 27, 2017 at 18:01

      Ah, basically to feel and sleep well, be happy.

      Working on it, but things are generally OK.

    • weilasmith on April 28, 2017 at 02:46

      Why be so detailed in proposing mechanisms leading to good health (as opposed to just trial and error tinkering) and then be so amorphous in goals and measurement towards goals? I agree sleep is really important because as mine has gotten worse with increasing hot flashes due to dropping estrogen/serotonin (my hypothesis on the serotonin part), my ability to form short term memories has been affected, which is really scary. i’m thinking of buying something more than just a fitbit to track my sleep, but right now i have my own little rating system just based on how many times i woke up at night, if i actually had to get something to fall back asleep (like aleve, 5 htp, etc).

      also i have some cardiovascular issues even in the face of excellent blood pressure, A1c, lipids and not being overweight. all my weight is on my belly, though. this stuff is complicated. i hope people posting in this field can share any health challenges they are facing because most of us will face some, even with seemingly great health habits.

  19. Jim on April 27, 2017 at 15:12

    Art is indeed a tool at times. But I still find his views interesting.

  20. Michael44 on May 3, 2017 at 00:58

    “Ok, I just have to think of that for a while. Just be patient, winners.
    I’m thinking on that already.”

    When one side presents valid evidence in support of an argument and the other counters with “Whatever”, ……well, what is a person to think?????

    Where are you Antonio?

  21. Carl on May 15, 2017 at 11:17

    http://tim.blog/2017/05/12/art-de-vany/

    You’re briefly mentioned at the beginning FYI.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 15, 2017 at 11:44

      Ha, doesn’t get briefer than that. 🙂

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