scratch-mark

I’ve Gone and “Cyberbullied” Poor Jimmy Moore

Someone messaged me this yesterday. It’s From Jimmy Moore’s Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb group on Facebook.

IMG_0427

Oh, cry me a river of orange-flavored exogenous ketone-drink, Jimmy.

What is it? Eight YEARS now, since 2008…you know, back when you were still doing reasonably decent with that 180-pound weight loss under your belt by following a sensible, Atkin’s style low-carbohydrate diet with adequate protein and sane amounts of fat and yes, even carbohydrate?

Hell, even your propensity toward a lot of packaged, low-carb junk food served you way better, back then.

And you were relevant in spite of struggling because at least you were maintaining, for the most part, and weren’t super far from your goal anyway. You had good guests on your show, myself included (twice). You brought in good guest hosts too, and I was happy to be one of them.

But in your zeal to let natural fats off the hook and not overly obsess about cholesterol levels, you completely went off the rails, and if that wasn’t enough, then you have to equate protein to “chocolate cake.” Why? Because you have allowed yourself to regard ketones as some primary cause, rather than as simply one of the effects of fat oxidation.

And for five years, now, you double down and double down again on gobbling ungodly amounts of fat, to the order of 80-85% of your dietary intake, and have the bloodwork to show for such folly after three years of insanity, with a result that looks like this, now, after what, an 80-pound rebound?

More-Moore

More Moore Than Ever: Jimmy Moore, Diet Guru

And why should I care? I don’t make a habit of going around fat shaming people for their problems. But you hold status and position and it’s perfectly reasonable to hold you to some standard of sanity.

But look at your comments on that post. It’s—so far—a 67-comment gag-fest from sycophants that reads 100% like this:

Deana Callahan Wilisch As always, you are the epitome of grace under fire. Love all that you stand for! Hold your head high, Jimmy. The world is a better place because you’re in it. I’m SO glad God made you. ❤️
Like · 29 · April 18 at 4:50pm

Rachel M Lerma Reclaiming one’s health is a journey and often a very slow and laborious journey. People get hung up on the visual “proof” but ignore the other, often more important gauges of health–improved blood work numbers, improved energy, improved strength, improved mental and emotional health. Weight can be “perfect” while everything else is terrible. I’d much rather listen to you and your experience and your multitude of ways your health and wellbeing have improved than someone who views just a number on a scale as the benchmark!
Like · 9 · April 18 at 5:04pm

Luisa Gregory Well said Jimmy. Thank you so much for the compassion and love you show for human kind. Thank you so much for all the work you do. I’m a diabetic nurse and see so many people body shaming my patients. It’s not there fault they are sick or obese . No one ever told them how to fix there disease. People like you are out there spreading the health news and giving people hope. You inspired me to help change my patients lives. Keep up the great work and don’t let these bottom feeders put out your fire ?
Like · 8 · April 18 at 5:01pm

Beth Carr Loyd My heart hurts for how you are being treated. Remember Jimmy how much God loves you. You are helping so many people not by being perfect but by being human. Keep strong there are more for you than against you!
Like · 7 · April 18 at 5:26pm

As they say with regard to porn: you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all. Here, you’ve read them all. Not a single comment, so far, even gently and politely signaling that there’s clearly something wrong, Jimmy. You keep jetting all over the world to speaking engagements and to attend various conferences on the money you get from affiliate and advertising revenue, ultimately ponied up by the type of folks who still don’t know a damn thing about body recomposition, fat loss, adequate nutrition…and the list goes on…and in large measure, because you have a financial interest in keeping them in the dark so they’ll keep supporting the companies that foot the bill for your laughable guru lifestyle.

…And why so many other diet-and-health docs and researchers still go on your podcast is a mystery to me. I’ve known a few over the years who’ve told me they won’t go on, anymore, because of your demonstrated loss of all credibility.

I looked the other way—aw shucks—for years, Jimmy. Defended you countless times, even in my own blog comments. The final straw for me was when you tossed Paul Jaminet under the bus—one of the kindest gentlemen many of us have ever known. Why? Well, seems to me that had you been forthright and represented things as you did initially, on video for chrissakes, it would have undercut your whole business.

You’re exactly right that my goal has always been education and empowerment, which is also precisely why I’ve never made a serious business off this. It’s almost guaranteed to become an automatic financial and status conflict-of-interest if you do. It breeds a nefarious intransigence I just hate. And I’ve been around plenty long enough to see how staying the course with some narrative of dietary advice stalls and derails people all the time because of their level of trust.

I have always liked being wrong more than anything about this. It’s the only time you get to know you’re right (you’re right that you’re wrong).

Now, let’s close with a quick little primer on dietary fat intake in the context of losing body fat.

  1. Dietary fat is the easiest of the macronutrients to store as body fat. It’s like beer in this regard—goes through you so quick and easy because it doesn’t have to change color.
  2. Storing carbohydrate as fat (de novo lipogenesis) is neither an efficient nor common metabolic pathway and only happens with very high carbohydrate intake combined with significant overfeeding. It’s how bears get uber fat in advance of a 5-month fast: hyper overfeeding of both fat and carbs (fatty salmon skin…they toss the protein flesh to the birds…combined with carb gorging on wild berries). The true fat bomb: fat and carbs in hyper-caloric excess; and all you’ve done is cut out the carbs and just go total fat bomb.
  3. Dietary fat is not satiating. Protein is. Carbohydrate can be, especially in a low-fat context (plain boiled potatoes are the most satiating food ever measured).
  4. Dietary fat is THREE TIMES more calorically dense than protein, provided you get your protein intake to 30% + of caloric intake. Fat has only a 1-2% Thermic Effect of Food (“TEF”), meaning you get a full 9 calories per gram consumed. By contrast, protein has a TEF of about 20-30%, and the more protein in your diet, approaching 50% of calories, the higher the TEF so you’re getting only 3 calories per gram. Just do the damn math on that.
  5. Higher protein intakes—even in the context of a low-carbohydrate diet—will be far more satiating than eating 1/3 the gram weight of less satiating fat and will more readily allow maintenance of a far more nutritious significant caloric deficit.
  6. Fat has almost zero vitamins or minerals. Do the nutritional deficiency math on making fat the lion’s share of your diet, much less a crazy “epileptic diet” of 80-85% as so many are doing in order to “’cause’ things to happen” by being able to read their ketone levels.
  7. You must run an average caloric deficit over a period of time in order to shed body fat. No exceptions.
  8. Calories and doing the math is far more important than dietary style, with one caveat: protein is king and will always be king, whether you prefer low-carb or low-fat and which you choose will not make any difference if you maintain an average caloric deficit over significant time.

Enough with the bullshit.

UPDATE: Just dropped this, with the link to this post in the comments to Jimmy’s Facebook post:

Hey Jimmy.
 
I’m a weird guy. Apart from your commenters who seem to wish to just extend dispensation for your sins and failings (we’re all awful about it, including myself) and admonish you to carry on without even a modicum of tough love someone who actually cares about you would do (your “Like” on their comment is more important to them than you are, your health, your credibility and the success you could be).
 
I’m a meanie.
 
While not YOUR struggle, I’ve had my own, and it’s a way different one than dietary fat, just doesn’t show quite as much.
 
I would not even bother if I didn’t care.
 
But in the end, dude, you have to demonstrate effectiveness. You can “go back to church” all you want and find no end to choirs singing your praises. But those who truly care about you, those who truly understand your capacity and your prowess of influence, will tell you this:
 
https://freetheanimal.com/2017/04/cyberbullied-jimmy-moore.html


Elixa Probiotic is a British biotech manufacturer in Oxford, UK. U.S. Demand is now so high they’ve established distribution centers in Illinois, Nevada, and New Jersey.

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Richard Nikoley

I'm Richard Nikoley. Free The Animal began in 2003 and as of 2021, contains 5,000 posts. I blog what I wish...from health, diet, and food to travel and lifestyle; to politics, social antagonism, expat-living location and time independent—while you sleep—income. I celebrate the audacity and hubris to live by your own exclusive authority and take your own chances. Read More

92 Comments

  1. Dan on April 20, 2017 at 12:09

    Thank you! Well Said! His followers are that of a cult. He is all about the money, never saw so many podcast, websites etc…You were right about paleo…Most not all, but Most of the “Paleo” guys are in in for the money before the health. We are so flooded with Information and Gurus Ia m to the point I believe none or very few!

    • Jeffrey Bergman on April 20, 2017 at 14:52

      Richard thanks for posting Jimmy’s blood work from 2015. I had always thought that even though he could not control his weight that his blood numbers were quite good. Wow these are horrible numbers. If I were Jimmy, I would definitely change my diet away from what I was doing. He always worries about protein because of the difficult conversion to sugar in ones body. However this is a very inefficient way to make glucose and burns energy (calories) in the process. I still enjoy the occasional Jimmy Moore podcast when he has a guest that I like.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 20, 2017 at 15:19

      Yea, but I queried with a number of LC folk back then, including docs.

      “Nothing to see here.”

      That’s because he was on the Chatechismic Diet, and since it’s perfect, good and holy, no prob.

      Imagine had it been from a SAD eater.

  2. Jim on April 20, 2017 at 12:09

    I only really hear about this guy anymore when you post about him, but I just don’t get it. You said years ago not to take nutrition or fitness advice from anyone you wouldn’t want to look like. So I then look at pictures of Jimmy Moore and… well, half the guys in my office look like that and they’re sure as shit not running food blogs.

    And 85% fat in your diet just sounds disgusting.

    • Bret on April 20, 2017 at 21:24

      And 85% fat in your diet just sounds disgusting.

      Not to mention lacking even a shred of evolutionary precedent. Dietary ketogenesis to the tune of 2000+ daily fat calories is a highly refined diet, never available to our ancestors, and enabled only by modern industry.

      The fact that Jimmy doesn’t get more heat over this painfully obvious contradiction is a true testament to how dumb and dependent people are.

  3. KGgirl on April 20, 2017 at 13:28

    Thank you for writing this!!! BRAVO! It is completely unacceptable that morbidly obese people are being told to eat butter
    They are simply trading sugar binges for fat binges. Open your eyes people. Let his lack of results speak over all the noise.

  4. B4 on April 20, 2017 at 13:46

    I would like to see two things: (1) Jimmy to respond to your post in your comment section to this post; and (2) Jimmy to post his food diary daily for at least a month.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 20, 2017 at 14:33

      That won’t happen. I’m not sure of the timeline but Jimmy used to post his food log all the time. While I never looked at it once, I heard plenty it was there.

      He stopped his food log and his personal pics around 2012, as I understand it, roughly at the time he went full keto.

      If I’m even close to correct, it makes sense. By going low protein, he must have had crazy, insatiable hunger. He can pretty much only eat fat, which isn’t satiating in isolation at all, and given it’s hyper caloric density, it isn’t hard to imagine him eating 1,000-2,000 calories excess daily, on average….until body set point began to kick in, a bit.

      There is zero mystery to what has been going on with him.

      Dropping significant protein is his derailment. Take it to the bank.

  5. Barbara on April 20, 2017 at 14:56

    Well written as usual. Really liked his stuff “way back when” and he’s certainly the type you root for in general. He lost all credibility with me when he started putting a pat of butter on every bite of food, losing and regaining in order to promote his latest client or book, etc.

    In other news, was wondering if you are familiar with Leanne Vogel (of HealthfulPursuit.com). Just read her book The Keto Diet and intrigued to try her plan. She gets the need for periodic carb ups (especially for us hormonal women folk), resistant starch, fermentable fiber, and keeping those carb ups low fat. I think it’s the first keto book I’ve read that suggests adding in some cooked/cooled potatoes or rice.

  6. Charles on April 20, 2017 at 15:35

    You’re forgetting that he lost 180 lbs on a low-fat portion controlled diet in 1999 and re-gained all of the weight in 4 months. Then he lost 180 lbs on the Atkins diet in 2003 – so it’s going on 18 years that he’s been unable to maintain a steady weight.

  7. Bobby on April 20, 2017 at 17:23

    “You must run an average caloric deficit over a period of time in order to shed body fat. No exceptions.” No exceptions? Are you sure? Sounds a little hard headed to me. No offense, just please stay open minded if you can. I’m not qualified in any way to professionally argue your statement; but over the years my observations tell me that caloric excess can produce fat loss given proper circumstances. A metabolic “sweet spot” if you will. Like a kid eating themselves skinny, or what Billy Craig talks about in his post called “the no diet diet”. I’m not saying Billy Craig is right, but it seeeems like some of what he talks about is true, and I’ve observed it. Can’t prove it though. A lot of things have to in order, though. Stress hormones managed properly and not excessively produced, good omega ratios, a good enough variety of foods to provide adequate nutrients, sleep, sunlight, good genetics maybe, supreme digestion (strong juices, good flora, transit times etc..) but I think it’s possible. Not very easy, but maaybe possible? I’m not even saying it’s ideal, either. But interesting nonetheless. Thank you for your time.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 20, 2017 at 17:30

      Pub Med.

    • Bobby on April 20, 2017 at 17:36

      Okay so you’re saying that you’d be willing to consider it if I had links to scientific studies and what not? Fair enough. I was just keeping you on your toes geez….I thought you liked being wrong… =) Don’t worry, I do too.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 20, 2017 at 17:47

      You are dealing in wishful thinking fantasy and there are millions of fat bodies in your path.

      You cannot show me a single overfeeding study where people lost weight.

    • La Frite on April 21, 2017 at 07:09

      I guess if you host a tapeworm eating most of your food, you will lose weight 😀
      But any way you look at it, the body only taps into its fat storage when energy input (dietary intake) is not enough to maintain weight. Of course, you can play with hydration, eat a ton of proteins and no water (I really don’t recommend such a diet …). Assuming you eat normal foods every day, you must in the end create an energy deficit, that is why fat storage exists in the first place because it is a safeguard against days without enough calories. Your suggestion is not realistic at all.

    • Cletus Rothschild on May 10, 2017 at 05:07

      “No exceptions? Are you sure?”

      Yes. It really isn’t all that difficult. The bigger you eat, the bigger you get.

      “Sounds a little hard headed to me.”

      The hard-headedness comes from those who’re trying to find some minuscule magic method that will overrule the major reality.

      “No offense, just please stay open minded if you can.”

      Open-minded does not have to mean gullible.

      “. . . my observations tell me . . . ”

      You’re simply not observing all of the variables, so you’re attributing the result on something that might have nothing to do with that result.

      “that caloric excess can produce fat loss given proper circumstances.”

      Seriously: caloric EXCESS can produce caloric loss. It’s no wonder why I stopped reading all of this nonsense years ago.

      “A metabolic “sweet spot” if you will.”

      This is exactly the problem: people are looking for this tiny little advantage that is just the body’s attempt at adjusting to excess. Just because the body is making this attempt DOESN’T MEAN IT’S GOING TO BE ENOUGH.

      “Like a kid eating themselves skinny”

      That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read. REALLY.

  8. Jen W. on April 20, 2017 at 17:59

    Looks like Jimmy and his followers have bought into that body positivity P.C. bullshit.

    • Bobby on April 20, 2017 at 18:07

      Jen, if you are referring to me, you’d be mistaken. I don’t know who Jimmy Moore is besides what I read in the post. I just thought the statement sounded a little dogmatic. I could be wrong. That’s okay. I’m not trying to hate or anything.. I read Richards posts from time to time, and enjoy a lot of them, and I’ve been experimenting with Elixa, so I bounce around here reading stuff about that too.

    • Jen W. on April 21, 2017 at 06:38

      Nope, Bobby. Was referring to Jimmy’s Facebook post and his followers responses Richard posted.

  9. Bobby on April 20, 2017 at 18:00

    You’re probably right Richard. Perhaps I’m thinking about it wrong. Maybe what I’m describing is a caloric deficit in an inadvertent fashion. I am trying to describe what maybe can happen when calories are in abundance along with all of the other ideal factors. Metabolic rate rises, weight set point starts to drop, and the body goes, *relaxing* “ahhhh, I don’t need to store anything anymore we’re all good”. At the same time, our appetite will correspond with the so called abundance and our desire for certain foods, or our appetite in general becomes naturally curbed. We unconsciously eat less because our bodies are happy and “topped up”. Thinking about it in the abstract, it just doesn’t sound like a deficit. It sounds like, just the right amount, to allow the “letting go”. But okay, I’ll fuck off. I’m not good at throwin around Pub Med stuff. I probably am a fucktard, but I sincerely want to understand this elusive phenomenon that may or may not actually happen. I know you deal with a lot of dopes, so I won’t take offense to your language. I like swearing too. Touche…

    • Richard Nikoley on April 20, 2017 at 18:10

      It’s very simple.

      There’s no description other than the simple one.

      Also no Abracadabra.

    • Wilbur on April 21, 2017 at 12:14

      Bobby –

      I think I get what you are saying. I do believe – because I’ve experienced it for just under 3.5 years – that the body can run on autopilot. My caloric input, caloric output, types of of I eat vary greatly, sometimes for weeks at a time. I weigh virtually the same every morning (165, 5’9″). What variation there is seems to relate to how much salt I eat.

      I eat what I want. The key is in the “what I want.” My diet is overwhelmingly unprocessed real food and large amounts of fibers (ok, some of the fibers might be processed). I love the diet. But I don’t think about macros at all. Or calories.

      The digestive system is incredibly complex. For example, only recently neuropods were discovered in the stomach, and my understanding (I’m not an expert) is that these convey information about what a stomach contains directly to the brain via nerves. Your brain knows what you are eating in real time. To me, this changes everything about my way of thinking about my digestive system.

      I do not believe that the digestive system is a passive system that responds to the byproducts of digestion. (It’s not “We have to pass it to find out what’s in it.”) Instead, it also controls what is digested and how much. It controls the transit time, communicates with all the organs involved, including the gut microbiome. I’ve read someplace but haven’t been able to find it again that the contents of the colon can be flip-flopped so it comes out in a different order than it went in. I believe I’ve experienced it but I’m not giving details.

      Given this, a chronic “caloric deficit” would seem to be seem to be identifiable after the fact, evidenced by a loss of weight. Eating more calories and moving less and yet losing weight can be compatible with losing weight if the system changes so that fewer calories are harvested.

      I think this does require a well running machine. I’ve been very fortunate. And my diet can’t be simpler – I eat what I want when I want.

  10. Charles on April 21, 2017 at 08:12

    livinlowcarbman
    Just a quick note of thanks for the outpouring of love and support from so many of you the other day after I shared the hate-filled personal attacks against me that still continue to come at me on a daily basis. Your kindness and compassion towards me was a great encouragement and I’m so grateful for each and every one of you. It’s YOU who reminds me of my primary purpose and fuels my passion for continuing to share about #healthy living daily in all my work. So thank you, thank you, thank you…LOVE YOU GUYS! ?#gratitude #support #love

  11. hap on April 20, 2017 at 21:29

    Regarding the efficacy of very low carb ketogenic diets and low fat comparisons for weight loss…..Professor volek wrote the following.

    “Our data has shown that VLCKD enhance total fat loss
    and may preferentially target central fat stores when compared
    with low-fat diets.”

    VOLEK, JEFF S. AND MATTHEW J. SHARMAN.
    Cardiovascular and hormonal aspects of very-lowcarbohydrate
    ketogenic diets. Obes Res. 2004;12:
    115S–123S.

    I thought this was a pretty well done study. We are talking <50gm/day,,,carb,
    It may be a bit older but the data decent and the variables measured interesting. pt groups included healthy normal weight and overweight males and females.

    Diets not very long…so I don'tknow how the folks might do over a longer term.

    • hap on April 20, 2017 at 22:09

      Oh…I forgot.. diets isocaloric.

  12. B4 on April 21, 2017 at 02:29

    Jimmy, listen to and be near those who tell you what you need to hear, not those who tell you want to hear. Toughen up and take some tough love. Best wishes.

  13. thhq on April 21, 2017 at 05:11

    A picture is worth 1000 words.

    The result that matters is waistline.

    You kill yourself by packing your internal organs in visceral fat. MRI’s show this the best.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3079791/

  14. Sassysquatch on April 21, 2017 at 05:52

    I wonder if Asprey is still pushing a similar LCHF mantra? Probably so, lots of money rides on the ‘Bullet-Proof’ brand.

    • Robert on April 21, 2017 at 13:34

      I have recently started listening to bulletproof radio, and in one fairly recent episode Dave Asprey mentioned the many health problems he suffered after going fully ketogenic as an experiment a few years back. He still haven’t recovered fully. He attributed it to not having enough carbs to keep the mucus lining intact, giving leaky gut. There is a lot of talk about gut bugs in many episodes, that’s why I started listening. That being said, it’s definitely low carb, anti grain. White rice and beans was mentioned as beneficial for those who can handle it, and need for fiber is emphasized.

    • Sassysquatch on April 23, 2017 at 05:39

      I don’t know, but putting butter and MCT oil in your coffee, sounds a little on the ‘ketogenic’ side to me. Plus a ton of overstated, over priced products that are promised to make you ‘bulletproof’. Even the ‘mycotxin’ free nonsense of his coffee was proven to be bullshit by Joe Rogan.

    • Robert on April 23, 2017 at 12:12

      Yes, even when I did LCHF I never went so far as putting butter in my coffee. It’s seems “unnatural” for lack of a better word. I can’t imagine or think of any traditional culture eating pure fat.

      Granted, Asprey is not promoting traditional or natural things. It’s biohacking, and the “toxin free” coffee is probably one of the cheapest things you can get from the Bulletproof things. Many machines and devices.

      I’m not interested in all those things, it seems to me to be an extreme investment (time and money), for comparatively​ small returns in health benefits. But on the other hand, it’s fun that someone tries all those things out and reports on it.

    • ramon on April 24, 2017 at 09:34

      Asprey eats carbs, he just eats “bulletproof”(TM) ones(sweet potato, black berries, white rice etc.). He reccomends 6-11 servings a day of vegetables. It has been a couple of years since he personally began stating that long term ketosis had negative impacts on his mucosa. He actually had an internet disagrement with DH Kiefer and sort of adopted one of Keifer’s tenants which is to eat carbs at the end of the day and be lower carb in the morning. (funny enough Keifer, who dislaikes Dave, adopted one of his ideas of a periodic “protein fast”. Dave is a remarkable marketer but I have seen him change his position once or twice in the face of study results or personal experimentation.

      And I don’t buy his “mold free cofee” coffee anymore I buy localy roasted. But I do buy products from him from time to time.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 24, 2017 at 15:21

      I can’t help but like Dave. If he didn’t exist, you’d have to invent him.

      Shared meals with him at restaurants a couple of times. Always has a block of Kerygold in his pocket. I’ve seen him add a slice of butter to sushi.

      LOL. What a character.

      He’s easy going, though. Did you see the bit where JP Sears roasted him?

    • Nocona on May 4, 2017 at 11:25

      Robert, Tibetans have been putting yak butter in their coffee for generations.

      • Richard Nikoley on May 4, 2017 at 12:19

        Don’t be a fuckimg moron with me.

        I hate it when theat happens.



    • Robert on May 4, 2017 at 12:40

      Well Nocona, I stand corrected. Thanks for cool info.

      Tibetan butter tea

      But I noticed that Tibetans rely on grains as their staple food. So not a bulletproof diet after all.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 4, 2017 at 13:57

      There is no essential difference between putting cream in your coffee or stupid butter.

      If anything, you get a few bit of of protein and maybe some micros in the former.

      This is why I dismiss you morons out of hand. You have lost the ability to think.

    • Nocona on May 4, 2017 at 17:13

      Wasn’t taking a position at all, just showing Robert that some people put fat in their morning drink. It’s probably where the irritating Assprey got his fatbomb idea from. Those Tibetan morons say it helps at altitude and with chapped lips. Intense environment on those high plateaus. Me, I don’t give a rats ass what people do with their morning drink.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 4, 2017 at 20:17

      OK, but no important difference from cream.

      Perhaps they didn’t have refrigeration and so use butter and my friend Dave got all opportunistic.

      (I laf at Dave to his face, but he’s a good sport)

    • Robert on May 4, 2017 at 22:59

      Hehe, in the very post about cyberbullying JM, we get called morons, and so the bullying continues 🙂

      But Richard is right. I actually did put heavy whipping cream in my coffee for some time while on LCHF. No big difference from butter when you think about it. Therefore my comment on butter in coffee being unnatural was stupid.

      In my opinion there’s no shame in being stupid. There is however shame in being an idiot, which according to my definition is being stupid but thinking you are smart. I try to avoid being an idiot at least.

  15. Compassion for all on April 21, 2017 at 07:03

    For anyone to think that “their way” is the only way to lose weight is ridiculous. I believe in LCHF and have been very successful when traditional “dieting” has never worked. Carbs spike insulin which starts a cascade of issues for those with metabolic syndrome (including myself). I don’t go crazy with the fat but i restrict the carbs (except those in non-starchy veggies) and it has saved my life. I have never felt better, energy is through the roof, health markers are great. If you don’t like Jimmy Moore then ignore him! I don’t go around bashing other religions because they are not like mine. “Diet” philosophies are definitely a religion to a lot of people. Believe what you believe but don’t bash others. I hope you find some compassion and understanding for others no matter what they do or believe. If it doesn’t match your own philosophies then move on.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 08:25

      Well, Jimmy lost weight on both LF initially, rebounded, then LC and has been rebounding again.

      I do LCH(ish)F every other week, LFHC every other week. In both cases I target protein, 150-200 g per day.

      Much of what people call “metabolic syndrome” isn’t. It’s physiological insulting resistance from chronic LC. A potato used to shoot my BG to 200+ and take 3-4 hours to clear. Now I can eat 2-3 pounds, top out under 140, and be clear in about an hour.

      It’s because I engage in metabolic exercise by often eating high cabs and low fat.

    • Hap on April 21, 2017 at 09:58

      “It’s because I engage in metabolic exercise by often eating high cabs and low fat.”

      This is a very interesting idea, cycling or varying eating habits, and calling it “metabolic exercise”. I think it makes particular sense, if one is reasonably healthy…ie not with a serious metabolic disorder to correct, which seems to call for a radical sort of dietary intervention. But the folks tend to turn this into an entire “lifestyle”….and perhaps that is not helpful in the long run.

      How long and how intense a dietary intervention should last, before transitioning to the “metabolic exercise” concept, or exactly what constitutes a reasonable type of “metabolic exercise” is kind of up for grabs. I think it is clear from let’s say the Volek article that short term interventions will substantially improve various markers of disease and result in weight loss. Any person tracking their progress would reasonably assume that their “dose” of this intervention should either be maintained or increase. However, this could be a false assumption, as it often is in drug therapies.

      With diets, it seems the safest way to engage in “metabolic exercise”….at least with macronutrient manipulation (ie alternating LCHF and LFHC) is to keep an eye on the total energy equation.

      It appears , and I fell for this as well, that the Jimmy Moore experience should have warned us all that he was moving toward the status of corrupted TV envangelist.

    • Shameer M. on April 21, 2017 at 10:47

      “A potato used to shoot my BG to 200+ and take 3-4 hours to clear. Now I can eat 2-3 pounds, top out under 140, and be clear in about an hour.”

      Good stuff! How long of cycling between LCHF & LFHC did it take for you to achieve this?

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 14:51

      I just did it back a year of so ago when we were doing the potato hack…nothing but potatoes, no fat, for a week or two.

      I believe very little of this “metabolic derangement” stuff. It’s confirmation bias. It’s like the couch potato that has to take the stairs because the elevator is broken, heart races to 250. He has “exercise derangement.”

      Similarly, chronic VLCers with physiological insulin resistance have a potato at a nice dinner out, or cake at a party and their BG skyrockets and they have confirmed that they can’t handle any carbs. Quite convenient for all the scammers…..

    • Hap on April 24, 2017 at 12:21

      a natural segue from the metabolic discussions surrounding CVD, T2D, insulin resistance….is towards the problem of cancer. specifically, the relatively pathetic progress ( in terms of real outcomes relative to the harm) of treating cancers with poison and then fully embracing the genomic theory of tumorigenesis. Bottom line……interesting research at massive taxpayer expense …resulting in huge bias in funding, ignorance and dogma.

      consider the relatively simple solutions we have all discussed regarding diets and lifestyles within our individual grasp, that appear to be effective ….and probably less harmful than most prescription drugs. Why should that not apply to cancer? In fact, it probably does….Otto Warburg and His “effect” is making a comeback as the genomic theory is showing age and defying explanatory power.

      The fact is…..the vast majority of cancers are just not heritable. Mutations do not drive tumorigenesis. LIke ketones, mutations, are a secondary effect of damaged good….and they are random. You can almost forget genetic targets.

  16. Dan on April 21, 2017 at 09:51

    Hi Richard,

    I was really excited for Jimmy when he attended Paul Jaminet’s retreat; I thought that finally he would be able to get his health (and ultimately his weight) back on track. I believe the perfect health Diet, if followed long term, would have helped jimmy’s metabolism, insulin sensitivity etc to eventually heal. Even if he had gained some weight in the short term (Remember Diana Shwarzbein?). Sigh.

    When Jimmy “threw Paul Jaminet under the bus” I was shocked, still am. Now it just makes me sad.

    I wish jimmy would quit all extreme diet nonsense, before it’s too late. I wish him all the best, and i hope that he is able to find his way back to health.

    Dan

  17. Shameer M. on April 21, 2017 at 10:19

    “Dietary fat is not satiating.”

    Interesting comment. I’ve read many a twitter feed of those who are LC or Keto & they swear that fat is the most satiating. This is just on example:

    https://twitter.com/johnmitchelldc/status/847986479489966082

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 14:54

      Utter bullshit. Most likely, it’s what they are eating it with. A big fat ribeye is satiating because of the protein, not the fat.

      Plus, you have to factor in calories. If you are guessing 2.5-3 times the calories per gram weight of fat, that needs to be calculated in, so you’re talking about satiation/calories.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 14:57

      Here’s something you can do that I’ve done. A non-marbled New York Steak has 1g fat per ounce. A ribeye has 6g fat per ounce.

      Eat a 12-ounce of each on consecutive days under similar circumstances. I always find the 12-ounce NY way more satiating for longer that the 6-times as fatty, less protein, way more caloric ribeye.

    • Shameer M. on April 21, 2017 at 14:59

      Great suggestion. I’ll give it a shot.

    • Robert on April 23, 2017 at 14:01

      Richard’s comments here have made me rethink my low carb experience. I did LCHF for over a year, lost weight much easier than on calorie counting (was eating junk food). Amazing satiety, no need to count calories, wow! Whenever reading diet and macro debates, I had my experience in mind, feeling LCHF is superior for satiety. Now, in low carb circles this is credited to fat, it’s supposedly uniquely satiating. Also, lack of carbs would mean no subsequent low blood sugar. I always bought this explanation, had no reason to question it I guess.

      But thinking back, it’s definitely true that I upped proteins significantly. I think that happens normally when going LC. What else is there left to eat? Cream and butter, although tasty condiments, makes no meal. To get some food, some bulk if you will, when rice, pasta, potatoes are gone, you have a steak, whole chicken breast, etc.

      Junk food on the other hand is low in protein. Pizza: thin slices of pepperoni, some cheese, but not much protein for the amount of calories.

      I tracked macros when having sandwiches for lunch and dinner yesterday: almost only carbs + fat. A few thin slices of ham and cheese makes a tasty sandwich, but it’s not much protein. I finished the day with about 50 g protein, almost 1800 kcal. Not good. Caloric deficit, but not muscle sparing.

      The experiment with high protein, high carb is interesting. Those who have tried it, is it as satiating as high protein, high fat?

    • Richard Nikoley on April 23, 2017 at 14:27

      If I keep my protein 150g per day or better, on average, I notice zero difference between higher fat weeks and higher carb weeks.

  18. Hap on April 21, 2017 at 10:36

    I’m not so certain Jason Fung did himself any favors….aligning so tightly with Jimmy Moore. Jason can seem extreme at times, but have to remember he is really a physician, working with metabolically deranged and sometimes seriously ill people. Dietary interventions in this context, if applicable, tend towards the extreme.

    • ramon on April 24, 2017 at 09:40

      I can’t figure it out either unless it’s increased book sales from the Church of Jimmy. I don’t mind Jason Fung and really like some of his analogies but I can’t listen to Jimmy’s “hold hands kumbaya” pod casts.

  19. hap on April 21, 2017 at 11:06

    It may be that the best “metabolic exercise”….long term, is intermittent fasting (ie no fat, no carb, no protein, no calories) followed by whatever. I guess you can tell I am craving sugary shit.

  20. Dan on April 21, 2017 at 11:25

    How about the daily metabolic exersise of 3 squares, with NO SNACKING or caloric beverages inbetween?

    • Hap on April 21, 2017 at 11:56

      That’s called…the Folsom Prison diet. Not metabolic exercise.

      Let’s sell it…!!!

    • Dan on April 21, 2017 at 12:53

      I know it sounds crazy these days! That’s how I was raised in the seventies. “Hungry? supper’s in an hour. the kitchen’s closed!!” (my Mom)

      Dan

  21. Lynn on April 21, 2017 at 14:43

    My knee jerk reaction to this post, and the dog posts, is “Why doesn’t he try being nicer?” Then once I have finished reading it all works out in the end. “Nice” is a slippery mode and doesn’t always serve.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 14:59

      LOL.

      My wife at breakfast this morning:

      “So who you going after today?”

    • hap on April 21, 2017 at 16:07

      Answer her question, please. sort of like radio teaser prior to a scheduled hard break.

      “on the other side I will tell you who the hell I’m going to excoriate!”

      You must have somebody or something in mind that is in this alligator’s throat.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 16:21

      I’ll be getting a post up once I get home tomorrow about a recent mild dust up on Facebook with Art De Vany.

      Just keeping it all real.

      No tolerance for intransigence, nor making elaborate, dubious claims to prop up an old Paleo narrative that’s false on many levels.

  22. hap on April 21, 2017 at 16:39

    This orange juice thing and glucose response after meals ……has me flummoxed. I’ve taken to eating oranges or tangerines for “dessert” after dinner. Haven’t done any systematic BG testing. But I figured it was better than craving cookies or something.

    However, I will float out the fact that Vitamin C and glucose are chemically similar and Vitamin C shares the GLUT1 receptor with glucose and competes with glucose for membrane transfer. Perhaps this is how OJ has some sort of salutary effect (excluding intestinal absorption or gut bacteria effects), even though OJ is the drug of choice for some diabetics for hypoglycemic episodes..

    • hap on April 21, 2017 at 16:49

      Yess…….! go after him. I am finding him sort of officious, although admirable in many ways. I do respect my elders, although we are not that different in age. HIs knee jerk Darwinism is a bit grating.

      the words intransigence, elaborate claims (always twisted in with orthodox Darwinism), and Paleo dot connecting seem to fit.

      Let me have kind words for him…as we are brothers in the professoriate at the same institution.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 21, 2017 at 17:35

      Perhaps the OJ is gentle medicine, doesn’t overshoot.

    • B4 on April 21, 2017 at 17:52

      Grapefruit juice rather than OJ is my weapon of choice. Sometimes I eat the flesh, sometimes I juice it. Great laxative effect too btw.

    • Hap on April 21, 2017 at 18:33

      Well….grapefruit has the vitamin C….however, the intestinal cytochrome P450 system is hampered by grapefruit and juice. If you take your grapefruit IV….NO PROBLEM.

      Most other juices including OJ do not have this property.

  23. B4 on April 21, 2017 at 17:47

    Any chance we can get Jimmy to compete on an episode of Survivor? This will be the closest environment I could see him in that would mimic “Paleo (TM)”. I would like to see how well he is able to implement his current diet macros without buying oils and fats processed by industrial machines. Maybe he can. I wouldn’t know.

    No cheat meals either unless you win a challenge!!

    • B4 on April 21, 2017 at 17:49

      It would be a great opportunity for him to promote his books too btw.

  24. Justin Watts on April 22, 2017 at 16:09

    The “you should be loved no matter what” mantra spouted by many these days is ignorant and immature. At the most basic level, yes every human needs love. But when applied to complex situations, it falls well short of the mark for what is needed.

    In this case, someone has been doing the same thing for a long fucking time and getting the same or worse results. Someone who came along a) pointed that out, and b) offered advice backed by trial and error, and a butt load of success. A lot of people get tripped up on item A and get offended. And then go straight to “you are beautiful no matter what people say.” Applied in scenarios like this, that is an immature and enabling mentality. Maturity is honest observation and analysis, admitting failure, and learning from it.

    As I have gotten older I have come to appreciate the more direct and honest approach to things. I admit I still sometimes default to a “feelings hurt” mode on occasion when approaching problems, but I am also aware of it and can reign it in most of the time.

    • B4 on April 22, 2017 at 17:30

      I never get offended by the truth even if I don’t like it. If you want people to be honest with you, you need to let them.

    • Charles on April 22, 2017 at 17:49

      Jimmy Moore will block you if you disagree with his paradigm in any way.

  25. Hap on April 23, 2017 at 15:56

    I looked at all these tests…..frankly the picture at the topof this post is proof of a big problem, no matter what the tests say. He’s yo yoing….. not just a happily adapted obese person. What he is doing is not working….if by working, we mean weight and body fat normalization.

    I’ve had a strange experience I never anticipated. Needed some dental work and I was put on amoxicillin. during the treatment my blood sugars , which I test routinely, shot up up 30-50%. this went on during the entire treatment phase and I thought it might get better once off. That was not the case. I had a dose of ELIXA sitting around unused and decided to start. After about three to five days BG has normalized to a great degree. I don’t know wht to make of it, frankly. I am not shilling for ELIXA. In fact, I am extremely skeptical. But this is strange.

    • thhq on April 23, 2017 at 16:14

      When I had T2 diabetes my BG shot up to 200 WHILE talking to a nutritionist. I was excited for some reason, and IMO the adrenaline rush dumped glucose into my bloodstream.

      When the T2 diabetes was diagnosed I had a 42″ waistline. At 36″ the diabetes is gone, and has been for the last 10 years. For me big waistline = metabolic syndrome. Crushing your internal organs in visceral fat packing causes them to malfunction.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 23, 2017 at 16:22

      I’m more a fan of the few grams of really adverse pancreatic fat. Plenty of people with losts of visceral fat who have pristine insulin sensitivity.

      Individual. Why some people pack fat on butt and hips, and others, on belly.

  26. Hap on April 23, 2017 at 16:49

    Insulin sensitivity can be preserved for a number of reasons for a very long time……. But odds of beta cell dysfunction do go up if you stress the system long enough.

    Visceral fat more involved in insulin and other signalling so is qualitatively and quantitatively different.

    Seeing Jimmy Moore did not present a picture of health.

  27. Hap on April 23, 2017 at 17:04

    It would be interesting to see the percentage of obese patients in the category you call “insulin sensitivity pristine” who show abnormal patterns of AUC with Kraft tests.

    If insulin sensitivity is defined by BG normalization alone, then you get into problems. IF you add HTN, or increased TG/HDL ratios etc, multiparametric analysis, the crowd gets smaller. Throw in a Kraft test…..and I think you have more problems . There are pretty good data on real outcomes MI/Stroke/progression to full blown T2D etc based on Kraft patterns.

    I”m still stuck on why I improved on Elixa….if that is really what is happening. I don’t think the data are supportive of improvement in BG on probiotics. Maybe Karl can opine.

  28. hap on April 24, 2017 at 12:46

    Interesting……you can be in ketosis, maybe even substantial ketosis and not lose weight. Explanations all over the internet…..but perhaps it’s simple. Yes…you are making ketones but you can’t burn (use ) as much as you “make”, so they get pissed away because not stored in a buffer like fat. Then you are eating all this fat, which gets stored as fat (or circulating in it’s multiple forms everywhere)…..and probably exceeding daily energy requirements.

    I admit , I fell for it, but not for long. No butter, oil, or even heavy cream in my coffee.

    Ketosis, on it’s own, a false God.

    Thanks Jimmy

    • Richard Nikoley on April 24, 2017 at 15:57

      You’re falling for the bullshit, Hap.

      If your diet is 80% fat you’re producing ketones like crazy. What much else is there for your body to metabolize / oxidize?

      If you are in a caloric deficit, then some will be ketones from body fat. If in excess, as most of Jimmy Moore’s fat brigade are, then all the ketones are from the dietary fat you’re eating and the rest gets stored easily.

      Why Jimmy Moore and his ketotards keep getting fatter and fatter.

    • Hap on April 24, 2017 at 17:00

      I fell (past tense) and only temporarily (like a month) for the BS, after I read Keto Clarity. But like others have written here, it seemed wrong although I thought I would try. I am very disappointed in Jason Fung, but he is not to blame. In fact I do not know who hitched which wagon to whom. I think Jimmy could have fleeced him. But that’s another story.

      the humming birds are interesting because the cannot use glucose for transoceanic migration….they have an adaptation to hyperefficiently use fat. 1gram fat gets 500 miles of oceanic flight. It’s how they fatten up that is unique, but there are mechanisms that parallel our physiology. they can upgrade their assimilation of nutrients, or downgrade…and so can we.

      they are massively hyperglycemic, at times, by our standards but never “diabetic”.

      I understand if you give your body fat and a few carbs…..it will make ketones, and that might be important in medical grade ketogenic “hacking” and can be tweaked as necessary to throw a tidal wave of ketones at cells that cannot metabolize them (eg cancer cells).

      If you look at the pie diagram of a ketogenic diet and other diets on Break Nutriion……you see the varying composition that produces a result….but the damn circles do not change in size…

    • Bret on April 24, 2017 at 20:30

      “I fell (past tense) and only temporarily (like a month) for the BS, after I read Keto Clarity.”

      Reminds me of my own disciple days. I used to hang onto every word on the Low Carb Experts podcast, buy the books recommended on it, etc. It started to unravel for me when I read Cholesterol Clarity. That book had been hyped up so ridiculously much over the preceding several months that I was expecting some kind of groundbreaking awesomeness. It wasn’t. It was an amateur summary of the most basic tenets of what nearly everyone (who wasn’t a vegan idiot) already knew. Around the same time I realized that nothing new was happening on the podcasts…only diving down endless rabbit holes on specious evidence.

      Had already started selling short by the time Keto Clarity came out, and thank God. The last thing I or my family needed was a big push to eat 80% fat (Barf). I don’t enjoy being gratuitously nasty to anyone, Jimmy included, but I don’t foresee myself seeking advice or information from him ever again.

  29. hap on April 24, 2017 at 12:57

    Format: Abstract

    Send to
    Obesity (Silver Spring). 2013 Apr;21(4):659-64. doi: 10.1002/oby.20026.
    Redefining metabolic syndrome as a fat storage condition based on studies of comparative physiology.
    Johnson RJ1, Stenvinkel P, Martin SL, Jani A, Sánchez-Lozada LG, Hill JO, Lanaspa MA.

    Metabolic Syndrome is a physiologic adaptation in certain animals for developing the storage of fat for periods of food shortage or starvation.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 24, 2017 at 16:04

      Sure, just as bears do. They engage in the perfect storm. High fat (salmon skin….they leave the protein for the birds) and wild berries.

      No better way to gain massive fat storage than to combine fat and carb in caloric excess.

  30. hap on April 24, 2017 at 13:11

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325055/

    Maybe if we flapped our wings at 50 BPS (hummingbirds) instead of lips…..we’d have a hard time staying fat too.

  31. EatLessMoveMoore on August 4, 2017 at 00:11

    As I’ve said elsewhere, better late than never. It bears mention, however, that some of us have been saying these things for many, many years. I was in fact banned from FTA once precisely for voicing such views (been banned from Jimmy’s webpire since 2012 as well). You may or may not recall, but I was the person who brought Jimmy’s infamous conflation of protein and chocolate cake to your attention. At any rate, you sound vastly saner and more reasonable these days, Richard – and, dare I say, nicer? What the hell happened?!

  32. Sal Monella on October 6, 2017 at 07:45

    I don’t have the time or inclination to read through all this blah, blah, blah. Someone on youtube gave me this link as I was trying to find out what this Jimmy Moore guy weighs currently. He wrote that he weighed 400 which is morbidly obese and then lost 180! Naturally, I’m curious to know whether he maintained that weight loss or not. I guess the answer is he did put a lot of weight back on, which is common. Does anyone know exactly what his current weight is? I certainly agree with the idea that you wouldn’t take financial advice from someone who’s broke so why would you take diet/health advice from someone who’s obese!

  33. Chad on November 7, 2017 at 17:17

    I agree that protein is satiating. But I believe fat is too. I don’t know how else I can drink coffee in the morning with heavy whipping cream and fast until 3pm for my first meal. I’ve done numerous experiments and the heavy fat in the morning works best to keep me satiated. To say dietary fat isn’t satiating just isn’t true. Thoughts?

  34. […] gets all his fat laddies to try to shut down the KT Facebook group, and they […]

  35. Aaron M. on May 12, 2018 at 09:23

    Albeit late, I commend you on this outstanding post, Mr. Nikoley! I stumbled upon it, after searching Google for anti-keto articles.

    I’ve long marveled at Jimmy’s followers who have not called him out on his bullshit. Their attempts to be kind, by being quiet, are not helping him. He’s surrounded with so many cult followers that he lives in a fantasy world. His droves of disciples line-up to kiss his large ass. It’s beyond insane.

    Again, well-done, sir.

    • Richard Nikoley on May 12, 2018 at 09:37

      Thank you.

      Hey, if you’re on FB, join my Ketotards group. Barrel of laughs.

  36. Rufus on June 12, 2018 at 12:10

    Jimmy Moore has just gone nuts, I think.

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